Premium Required? Not Necessarily

[JDMJAYDC2]

found this link by typing in regular gas in a b16a on google
this kinda eases my worries about the regluar gas that now sits in my tank for the first time since ive owned the car but if a bmw spokesman says thats its not bad for their cars i know my crappy b16 wont suffer too much





What grade of Gas do you use?




I used to alway use the 93 octane super unleaded because of all the hype. I've since started using just the 90 octane after reading articles like this. Anyone still using the 93?



Premium Required? Not Necessarily

AT today’s prices, it’s understandable that drivers accustomed to filling their gas tanks with premium would be looking for ways to ease the financial pain.
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Karen Bleier/Agence France-Presse -- Getty Images

For premium-grade gas, prices to match.

Some relief may be as close as their next fill-up. Switching from premium-grade to regular unleaded can save several dollars on each tankful, given an average price difference of about 30 cents a gallon, according to end-of-July figures compiled by AAA.

While using gasoline that carried a lower octane rating than the engine required was once a sure path to disaster, that is no longer the case. Nearly all automobiles sold in the United States since the 1990s will happily run on regular-grade 87-octane gasoline without causing engine damage, a benefit of the electronic controls that now manage all engine functions.

The octane number posted on the pump is a measure of a gasoline blend’s resistance to a condition called knocking. The knocking sound — a rattling noise made by an engine under load, familiar to drivers of older cars — is a result of out-of-control combustion, the mixture of air and fuel burning erratically. The explosion rings the metal of the engine block like a bell.

The higher the octane rating, the more temperature and pressure the gasoline can withstand before it ignites on its own, rather than when it is set off by the spark plug. An engine that calls for premium gas typically has a higher compression ratio — it squeezes the air and fuel mixture to higher pressures — which can improve both fuel economy and power output. But such an engine requires the higher octane rating to run properly.

Before the switch to fuel injection and computerized controls, engines were subject to damage from prolonged knocking. But today’s engine management systems incorporate electronic knock sensors, which detect the condition and adjust the ignition to stop the problem. As a result, it is almost impossible to hurt a current engine by using 87-octane fuel, industry experts say.

“Modern engines prevent the damage from happening before it starts,” said Patrick Kelly, a fuels analyst with the American Petroleum Institute. “It wouldn’t impact fuel economy. And it wouldn’t impact the emissions. What it would impact is the performance.”

Of course, owners who do not heed the automakers’ recommendations may face consequences — the potential voiding of warranties, for instance. But for the most part, manufacturers’ fuel recommendations include some wiggle room.

Porsche, for example, acknowledges that any of its modern production cars can be run on regular fuel without the risk of damage.

A spokesman for Porsche North America, Tony Fouladpour, added a caveat. “If you want the car to perform at its maximum capability, the best choice would not be 87,” he said. “But we do not forbid it.”

Specifying premium fuel lets a car manufacturer squeeze out more horsepower. BMW, for example, recommends that all the cars it sells in the United States use premium fuel, but they will run on regular.

“There generally isn’t any harm done to the engine by using lower-octane fuel,” said a BMW spokesman, Thomas Plucinsky. “Because our engines do have very good forms of knock sensing and are able to deal with lower-octane fuels, you will not have any drivability issues. You will, however, lose some of the performance.”

How much of a loss? Some indication can be found in the peak horsepower numbers Hyundai recently released for its new Genesis sedan. On premium, the 4.6-liter V-8 engine is rated at 375 horsepower. On 87-octane regular, it is 368.

That seven-horsepower difference — less than 2 percent — seems a small penalty for saving 30 cents a gallon, especially when you can regain that performance simply by filling up with premium.

Does using lower-octane fuel reduce mileage or increase emissions, as some drivers believe? Not according to the Environmental Protection Agency. “E.P.A. fuels engineers say that there isn’t a meaningful difference between regular and premium gasoline,” said Dale Kemery, a spokesman for the agency.

Still, the warning from some automakers can give an owner pause at the pump. The manual for the Smart Fortwo repeats the warning issued for other vehicles sold by Mercedes-Benz: “To maintain the engine’s durability and performance, premium unleaded gasoline must be used.”

But even those stern words may have some room for interpretation. Dave Schembri, president of Smart USA, told John Schwartz, a reporter who was writing for this section’s blog about his experiences in buying a Smart, that he should not worry.

“You could use regular gas — there’s no damage to the car,” Mr. Schembri said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/au...o_interstitial (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/03/automobiles/03OCTANE.html?no_interstitial)

[Evil Goat]

read this article to my cam...premium + 15mpg is the win!

[JDMJAYDC2]

lmao repped evil goat lol

[Z0_o6]

i'm not risking it. i don't feel like putting pistons in my STi.

[alpine_aw11]

Seriously, the guys who wrote this obviously haven't tried putting regular in a high performance car. It's not pleasant.

[.blank cd]

If people put regular in their car and stop driving like damn racecar drivers, everyone would be fine

[Z0_o6]

I PAY MY PAYMENT I'LL DRIVE LIKE I WANNA!!! :D

[Motivation]

If people put regular in their car and stop driving like damn racecar drivers, everyone would be fine

:no: that statement is not true... It don't all have to do with driving like a "race car driver"...

[.blank cd]

:no: that statement is not true... It don't all have to do with driving like a "race car driver"...it is very true, if these people put regular in their cars and granny shifted for a little while until fuel schedules got more regular, they would be ok. but hey, dont put regular in ur car, more gas for me!:D

[collins]

you tell my 11:1 (or higher) compression aluminum v8 that 87 wont hurt it... it'll start laughing at you... or coughing... cant really tell the difference sometimes...

[Member31410]

My car will operate on regular fuel but I didn't buy my car so I could skimp it out of its maximum performance.

[collins]

and the ming has spoken! and has been repped.

edit:
damnit to hell...

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Member31410 again.

[collins]

it is very true, if these people put regular in their cars and granny shifted for a little while until fuel schedules got more regular, they would be ok. but hey, dont put regular in ur car, more gas for me!:D
says the man driving an accord... :thinking:

[b18hb]

we put regular in my wife's 1.8t passat, contrary to manufacturer recomendation. we have percieved no discernable difference in the way the car drives.

that said, i'll still put premium in it when it becomes more available, its just not worth the hassle of trying to find it right now.

[Evil Goat]

it is very true, if these people put regular in their cars and granny shifted for a little while until fuel schedules got more regular, they would be ok. but hey, dont put regular in ur car, more gas for me!:D


there are times when i wish i still drove a stock internal'ed honda....then i take a look in the mirror, see that big ass smile on my face, and come back to my senses. it makes it worth every penny i spend on premium :goodjob:

[Tech5]

depending on the car,tune,boost,etc is what gas you use....I am running a built Vtec engine so I will be using 93 octane!

[collins]

just did a little math... if you do 1/4 concentration of e85 to 87 unleaded, you get 91.25 octane rating... that should be a safe alternative for newer vehicles that are able to run and adjust to e85, right? does that make sense or am i WAY off?

[Evil Goat]

makes sense to me, but can you mix the too?

[blackshine007]

With most GM vehicles, they are ready to run on E85. All other vehicles need stainless steel hoses because it eats away at rubber hoses. Unless you have a flex fuel badge sitting somewhere on your car. I would love to convert all of my lines.

[collins]

makes sense to me, but can you mix the too?
from what i've heard/read, yes... my buddy did it with his swapped subie and it did fine.

[collins]

actually... yes... of course you can mix the two.... every bit of gas we currently use is already up to 10% ethanol. so why wouldnt we just be able to run a slightly higher concentration of it?

[collins]

if i'm absolutely incorrect, PLEASE someone tell me!

[blackshine007]

if i'm absolutely incorrect, PLEASE someone tell me!
:goodjob:

[Motivation]

if i'm absolutely incorrect, PLEASE someone tell me!

You are absolutely incorrect. :ninja:

[.blank cd]

says the man driving an accord... :thinking:I drive an integra now which i happily put regular in, thank you very much

BTW theyre already mixing 10% ethanol in your gasoline anyway so your 87 octane is closer to 89

[WickedIXMR]

I think anyone who really are into cars knows this. Obviously your not gonna put regular into a highly modified car but if you have a car thats stock that requires 93 you can put in regular without hurting your motor. Like the article says the less the octane the more the knock. Most of us know if you put lower octane fuel then the car requires then the ecu is just gonna retard timing and you will be fine with regular fuel.

[DirtyMechanic]

actually... yes... of course you can mix the two.... every bit of gas we currently use is already up to 10% ethanol. so why wouldnt we just be able to run a slightly higher concentration of it?only in regular gas not mid and premium

[tgiannes]

my uncle has an 07 A6 he does not give a **** its a lease he puts the cheapest gas in it and it runs fine it says only run prem, i have a suburban with a chip and a few other bolt ons and if i run mid grade it runs like ****. So new luxury car runs fine on cheep, truck made to run on cheep does not like cheep.

[tgiannes]

so mid and prem have no ethanol???

[collins]

You are absolutely incorrect. :ninja:
lol ummm... thanks? dork.


blackshine, does that :goodjob: mean i'm wrong? or did you just feel like putting a :goodjob: there?

[green91]

This thread has alot of incorrect information.

SOME newer vehicles with advanced knock sensing & timing retardation abilities could possibly run lower octane fuel and adjust for it at the expense of power. Your high performance (high compression or boosted) vehicle isn't that way.

Current fuel mixed with ethanol is exactly what octane it claims to be.. meaning 87 octane is the overall octane. You can't mix more ethanol to change the octane rating without changing your engine tune. It takes 33% more ethanol to create the same amount of power as an equivalent volume of gasoline.. meaning 1:1 ethanol to fuel will result in a lean combustion with ethanol. Not cool.

IMO any motor over about 10:1 shouldnt even consider anything less than 93 octane or else detonation will occur.

[Motivation]

lol ummm... thanks? dork.


blackshine, does that :goodjob: mean i'm wrong? or did you just feel like putting a :goodjob: there?

lol, you're welcome...

I just don't feel safe putting regular in my car... It might run, but not very well... What is the point in taking the risk? It's cheaper to look for and buy premium, than it is to replace whatever messes up from regular or whatever...

[Member31410]

I think anyone who really are into cars knows this. Obviously your not gonna put regular into a highly modified car but if you have a car thats stock that requires 93 you can put in regular without hurting your motor. Like the article says the less the octane the more the knock. Most of us know if you put lower octane fuel then the car requires then the ecu is just gonna retard timing and you will be fine with regular fuel.

Werd!

[ironchef]

This thread has alot of incorrect information.

SOME newer vehicles with advanced knock sensing & timing retardation abilities could possibly run lower octane fuel and adjust for it at the expense of power. Your high performance (high compression or boosted) vehicle isn't that way.

Current fuel mixed with ethanol is exactly what octane it claims to be.. meaning 87 octane is the overall octane. You can't mix more ethanol to change the octane rating without changing your engine tune. It takes 33% more ethanol to create the same amount of power as an equivalent volume of gasoline.. meaning 1:1 ethanol to fuel will result in a lean combustion with ethanol. Not cool.

IMO any motor over about 10:1 shouldnt even consider anything less than 93 octane or else detonation will occur.Im at 10.5:1 and boosted (A4 2.0t), and had to use 87 last week. I had no problems that I could see or hear. There was a very minor discernable difference in performance, but thats about it.

[collins]

This thread has alot of incorrect information.

SOME newer vehicles with advanced knock sensing & timing retardation abilities could possibly run lower octane fuel and adjust for it at the expense of power. Your high performance (high compression or boosted) vehicle isn't that way.

Current fuel mixed with ethanol is exactly what octane it claims to be.. meaning 87 octane is the overall octane. You can't mix more ethanol to change the octane rating without changing your engine tune. It takes 33% more ethanol to create the same amount of power as an equivalent volume of gasoline.. meaning 1:1 ethanol to fuel will result in a lean combustion with ethanol. Not cool.

IMO any motor over about 10:1 shouldnt even consider anything less than 93 octane or else detonation will occur. thank you! thats what i was looking for.

[DirtyMechanic]

I think anyone who really are into cars knows this. Obviously your not gonna put regular into a highly modified car but if you have a car thats stock that requires 93 you can put in regular without hurting your motor. Like the article says the less the octane the more the knock. Most of us know if you put lower octane fuel then the car requires then the ecu is just gonna retard timing and you will be fine with regular fuel.agreed 100% especialy on a N/A motor and stock boosted vehicles.

[Motivation]

Im at 10.5:1 and boosted (A4 2.0t), and had to use 87 last week. I had no problems that I could see or hear. There was a very minor discernable difference in performance, but thats about it.

I also think it is different when it is a factory turbo set up, and aftermarket... Not sure whether you are running factory setup or not, just saying all cars are going to be different.

[green91]

Im at 10.5:1 and boosted (A4 2.0t), and had to use 87 last week. I had no problems that I could see or hear. There was a very minor discernable difference in performance, but thats about it.

If thats the risk you wanna take go for it. Just because you can't hear it pinging doesnt mean its not. I would definitely drive it as easy as possible to reduce engine load.

[ironchef]

Don't get me wrong, I didn't put in 87 by choice. I was on E, but needed to get to work/school, and there was no premium anywhere.

[alpine_aw11]

I doubt using regular would ever cause any serious/permanent engine damage, but if my car required premium I'd definitely stay on the safe side and use premium unless I couldn't find it.

[ShooterMcGavin]

i'm not taking the chance...

[SpecV_Scott]

The one thing this article doesn't mention is that while there isn't a difference in MPG between 87 and 93 octane gas in general, that isn't necessarily the case in practice, especially in high performance cars. Think about what most ECUs do when they detect knock...they retard the timing. Sure you can get away with driving around with your timing retarded...but you will definitely not be running as efficiently as you would with your timing at ideal levels.

So it may cost 30c/gal more, but you will probably get better mpg if you drive a highly tuned and/or performance car. Otherwise, use 87.

[.::UNKNOWN::.]

screw that the little sticker on the door of my gas tank says in bold big letters
PREMIUM FUEL ONLY i think i will listen to the engineer at honda that built the motor:goodjob:

[flak_monkey]

my compression is 10.5:1. I'm not running regular.

[IDCoconut]

right now, I have quarter tank of 93 and the rest 87. My daily that has 11:1 compression pinged like a ***** under WOT, lol. Had to drive home @ 60mph last night after filling up. Going to go buy 4 cans of octane booster today. I can't do 60mph, haha.

[Tarzanman]

I ride a high performance bike. 93 all the way!

Except for today... I took my low performance bike. 87 rules, fools!

[mocha latte cupcake]

SORRY KIDS, the S2k is NOT getting anything other than that good good. i'll sooner call into work and bike around town than put anything other than that sweet sweet 93 in it!

11.0:1 :goodjob:

[Ran]

2008 Ford Mustang GT (4.6L V8) - 91 octane or better recommended. Vehicle may safely run on 87 octane. Some engine pinging may occur, this is normal.

lol

[mocha latte cupcake]

bwhahahaha dude you can put apple juice in your tank and it'll work bwhahaha silly mustangs... as long as its liquid i'm pretty sure it'll @ least try to run... WAIT i've figured out a way to STOP EMISSIONS!!!!!

try and run the mustang on scope! MINT EXHAUST AND cool GREEN vapors! :D spread fresh and clean where ever you go!

[Sport1.3]

yeah, doesnt quite work that way for all motors....my car would detonate at the first signs of boost

[blackshine007]

The one thing this article doesn't mention is that while there isn't a difference in MPG between 87 and 93 octane gas in general, that isn't necessarily the case in practice, especially in high performance cars. Think about what most ECUs do when they detect knock...they retard the timing. Sure you can get away with driving around with your timing retarded...but you will definitely not be running as efficiently as you would with your timing at ideal levels.

So it may cost 30c/gal more, but you will probably get better mpg if you drive a highly tuned and/or performance car. Otherwise, use 87.
My car from the factory came with a sticker that says "Premium Recommended" and I can tell a difference between running regular vs. running regular. Let me tell you on regular, the fuel needle really moves. If I get 300 miles with regular I'm doing really well. And that's acutally driving normally. On premium, I get way better. I get close to 30 mpg on the highway with it. I filled up with regular and not only is it slower, but I'm probably getting about 22-24 mpg right now. Sux for me.

[Motivation]

My car from the factory came with a sticker that says "Premium Recommended" and I can tell a difference between running regular vs. running regular. Let me tell you on regular, the fuel needle really moves. If I get 300 miles with regular I'm doing really well. And that's acutally driving normally. On premium, I get way better. I get close to 30 mpg on the highway with it. I filled up with regular and not only is it slower, but I'm probably getting about 22-24 mpg right now. Sux for me.

You can tell a difference between running regular and running regular? :thinking:

[Motivation]

right now, I have quarter tank of 93 and the rest 87. My daily that has 11:1 compression pinged like a ***** under WOT, lol. Had to drive home @ 60mph last night after filling up. Going to go buy 4 cans of octane booster today. I can't do 60mph, haha.
You do realize that, with 4 cans of "octane booster", you MIGHT raise it one octane point?

[collins]

if ANY of you kids find premium.... i expect a phone call or a pm or SOMETHING!!!!!

[Motivation]

There is some in Forest Park, by 285 next to BoJangles. Just got some. :D

[collins]

well, as a last resort.... it would take me 1/4 tank just to get there lol... any near stone mountain or in gwinnett?

[Thighs]

the miata pinged like a ***** on regular, but that was only after i bumped the timing up to about 18* lol.

the e30 likes regular though. 8.5:1 compression FTW!!!

[Ed]

If i put 87 in the evo, this is what would happen:

http://www.hnd.usace.army.mil/pao/CEAInfo/Explosion%20Photo.JPG

on a serious note, someone told me to get octane booster and put 87, lulz.

no thanks.

[Motivation]

well, if that happens make sure you get it on video, ed. lol, would at least look cool for a minute...

[Ed]

well, if that happens make sure you get it on video, ed. lol, would at least look cool for a minute...

right? lolol :lmfao:

[pinoyboy]

With the shortage of premium, has anyone tried a mix of toluene? I remember reading about it before and used it at the track 3 years ago. I figured it may help since I did end up spraying that day

Currently, I have about 2-3 gallons of 93 left. I figured I can make a mix with 87 and toluene. If I did it now, it looks like I could end up around 95 octane.

[T.S.]

yeah factory audi's can run on 87 but anything aftermarket including a chip you can't. You'll destory that car. And ran said something about his mustang and all i would run in that thing is 87 unless you were planning on racing something. Which in that car would be a stock ex civic.

[blackshine007]

With the shortage of premium, has anyone tried a mix of toluene? I remember reading about it before and used it at the track 3 years ago. I figured it may help since I did end up spraying that day

Currently, I have about 2-3 gallons of 93 left. I figured I can make a mix with 87 and toluene. If I did it now, it looks like I could end up around 95 octane.
Toluene will work but it's not very injector or O2 sensor friendly. It will eventually eat the seals out. Not immediately, though. Besides, that stuff costs at least $10/gal so for what it's worth, I'd ride out the regular until premium returns.

[pinoyboy]

Toluene will work but it's not very injector or O2 sensor friendly. It will eventually eat the seals out. Not immediately, though. Besides, that stuff costs at least $10/gal so for what it's worth, I'd ride out the regular until premium returns.

Yea, I've heard that as well. Its recommended to run some type of additive. I've heard you can use atf, but i've heard marvel's mystery oil will work well too.

[DirtyMechanic]

right now, I have quarter tank of 93 and the rest 87. My daily that has 11:1 compression pinged like a ***** under WOT, lol. Had to drive home @ 60mph last night after filling up. Going to go buy 4 cans of octane booster today. I can't do 60mph, haha.why the hellz are you going WOT when you dont have the right octane in a car that needs 91+ thats like that hey im going to go WOT and see how close to 30psi i can boost creep to when stock is 9psi.... your smart.... NOT!

[MS3ZZ]

Ran the car with reg. Lowered average mile per gallon and ran like ****. Speaking from exprience, will not run reg again. Premium only on my turboed car.

[pinoyboy]

i'm happy, just got a full tank plus a couple extra gallons of premium close by to me.

I'm not sure who else lives around the area, but Chevron at the corner of Redan Rd. and Panola Rd. has premium and regular. There wait wasn't bad at all either.

[fivex684]

My Volvo is chipped (17psi) so I always use 93. I'm North Carolina right now and haven't noticed any gas shortages like in Georgia.

[OneSlow5pt0]

my car would run on dr pepper

[Killswitch Performance]

This thread has alot of incorrect information.

SOME newer vehicles with advanced knock sensing & timing retardation abilities could possibly run lower octane fuel and adjust for it at the expense of power. Your high performance (high compression or boosted) vehicle isn't that way.

Current fuel mixed with ethanol is exactly what octane it claims to be.. meaning 87 octane is the overall octane. You can't mix more ethanol to change the octane rating without changing your engine tune. It takes 33% more ethanol to create the same amount of power as an equivalent volume of gasoline.. meaning 1:1 ethanol to fuel will result in a lean combustion with ethanol. Not cool.

IMO any motor over about 10:1 shouldnt even consider anything less than 93 octane or else detonation will occur.

Thank god. I didn't read any other post after yours, but guys, if you don't know what you are talking about, don't spread the misinformation.

And about E85. Since 1988 the Gov. mandated that all fuel systems be able to handle ethanol. So whoever mentioned that only GM, etc is wrong. Any car 1988 and higher will not suffer from running E85 through it. And also, be aware, that the 33% will probably require you to up the more then just your fuel map, 33% is a lot of fuel, so those of you already at 75% IDC, will need new injectors, and probably a larger, or dual fuel pump. Larger fuel lines as well. Then a tune.

E85 is not a drop in solution, and you cannot simply just mix it with your gas and go.

I would go on about the octane level, but I'm pretty sure someone else covered it already.

Tyler

[DirtyMechanic]

Thank god. I didn't read any other post after yours, but guys, if you don't know what you are talking about, don't spread the misinformation.

And about E85. Since 1988 the Gov. mandated that all fuel systems be able to handle ethanol. So whoever mentioned that only GM, etc is wrong. Any car 1988 and higher will not suffer from running E85 through it. And also, be aware, that the 33% will probably require you to up the more then just your fuel map, 33% is a lot of fuel, so those of you already at 75% IDC, will need new injectors, and probably a larger, or dual fuel pump. Larger fuel lines as well. Then a tune.

E85 is not a drop in solution, and you cannot simply just mix it with your gas and go.

I would go on about the octane level, but I'm pretty sure someone else covered it already.

Tylerif i have to repalce the injector and fuel pump and a reflash to run E85 then the car CANT handle E85... and yes you can mix E85 and regular kinds of gas in a FlexFuel vehicle because the front O2 sensors (which really arent O2 sensors anymore more like Air/Fuel sensors and can read a much larger range than a O2 sensor) and read the car is getting leaner as the E85 is mixed in...

[Killswitch Performance]

All other vehicles need stainless steel hoses because it eats away at rubber hoses.

This is what I was talking about. This is not true. Of course you will need larger components. But I was referring to the fuel lines.

Tyler

[The Youngn]

My car electronic octane sensors so it won't even start without premium. Scared the crap out of me when i accidentally found that out 2 years ago

[VooDooXII]

My manual recommends premium for my car, but I've put regular in it before. Maybe it's a psychological thing, but I feel like the engine sounds a little grittier...almost like a diesel, without so much clatter. Lately, I've been big-toeing the accelerator, so it's not like I'll feel any performance loss, if at all.

[flak_monkey]

If i put 87 in the evo, this is what would happen:

http://www.hnd.usace.army.mil/pao/CEAInfo/Explosion%20Photo.JPG



no thanks.

With mitsubishi's reputation for outstanding quality, i wouldn't be surprised if that happened anyway.

[Motivation]

With mitsubishi's reputation for outstanding quality, i wouldn't be surprised if that happened anyway.


lirl. sad but it's so true. :cry: