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4dmin
09-27-2008, 08:54 PM
below is a 3rd party critique on both plans:


Senator John McCain's (R-AZ) health plan would eliminate the current tax exclusion of employer payments for health coverage, replace the exclusion with a refundable tax credit for those who purchase coverage, and encourage Americans to move to a national market for nongroup insurance. Middle-range estimates suggest that initially this change will have little impact on the number of uninsured people, although within five years this number will likely grow as the value of the tax credit falls relative to rising health care costs. Moving toward a relatively unregulated nongroup market will tend to raise costs, reduce the generosity of benefits, and leave people with fewer consumer protections. [Health Affairs 27, no. 6 (2008): w472-w481 (published online 16 September 2008; 10.1377/ hlthaff.27.6.w472)]


The health reform plan put forth by Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) focuses on expanding insurance coverage and provides new subsidies to individuals, small businesses, and businesses experiencing catastrophic expenses. It greatly increases the federal regulation of private insurance but does not address the core economic incentives that drive health care spending. This omission along with the very substantial short-term savings claimed raise serious questions about its fiscal sustainability. Heavy regulation coupled with a fallback National Health Plan and a play-or-pay financing choice also raise questions about the future of the employer insurance market. [Health Affairs 27, no. 6 (2008): w462-w471 (published online 16 September 2008; 10.1377/hlthaff.27.6.w462)]

discuss.

AlanŽ
09-27-2008, 09:03 PM
below is a 3rd party critique on both plans:

[QUOTE]The health reform plan put forth by Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) focuses on expanding insurance coverage and provides new subsidies to individuals, small businesses, and businesses experiencing catastrophic expenses. It greatly increases the federal regulation of private insurance but does not address the core economic incentives that drive health care spending. This omission along with the very substantial short-term savings claimed raise serious questions about its fiscal sustainability. Heavy regulation coupled with a fallback National Health Plan and a play-or-pay financing choice also raise questions about the future of the employer insurance market. [Health Affairs 27, no. 6 (2008): w462-w471 (published online 16 September 2008; 10.1377/hlthaff.27.6.w462)]




discuss.

See this is why Obama's health care plan along with a few other things, has never maid sense to me. He wants to raise taxes on the top 5% yet he wants to subsidize health care for small business owners when essentially that's who he is talking about? It's like he's talking out of both sides of his neck.

JConner
09-28-2008, 09:59 PM
All I can say is that I feel bad for my friends that are paying $$$$$$ to attend medical school right now. Once healthcare is socialized (which will happen sooner or later with the democrats taking over) doctors will make no good money at all. The democrats do not realize that if you let the private sector take over healthcare the cost will decrease dramatically because of competition! If the government provides healthcare to everyone the cost of healthcare will only rise. People from Canada that have money make trips to the U.S. to get procedures done and are willing to pay for it because in Canada you have to wait 3 years to get damn stitches! Voters need to look at Canada's healthcare system before voting for someone who wants to socialize healthcare.


My stepfather was a pathologist and owned Alcovy Pathology which operated at Newton General Hospital for 20 years and he is now an executive at a private hospital. He said that if he were my age and trying to decide on a career path that he would not chose anything to do with being a physician because you will be working for the government very soon.

Vteckidd
09-28-2008, 10:05 PM
newsflash if you want healthcare you can get it you just have to pay for it. Why should the government make it free? That's retarded.

In that sense mccain plan is better in that he wants you to go out and get tour own plan that fits you and he wants you to have the flexibility to choose what and who you want as a doctor.

Why should the govt decide for you?

Again if you don't get it I can't help you

JConner
09-28-2008, 10:09 PM
newsflash if you want healthcare you can get it you just have to pay for it. Why should the government make it free? That's retarded.

In that sense mccain plan is better in that he wants you to go out and get tour own plan that fits you and he wants you to have the flexibility to choose what and who you want as a doctor.

Why should the govt decide for you?

Again if you don't get it I can't help you

good post!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mr. KiDD again.

BanginJimmy
09-28-2008, 11:45 PM
Neither plan will work as they dont address the reasons that health care is getting so expensive.

Indigent care is driving up the costs to hospitals and therefore to individuals and insurance companies. Anyone that has been in an emergency room in the last couple years knows what I am talking about. It is filled with people that do not have an emergency. They use the emergency room as a regular doctor. This also causes the level of care to go down as docs dont take people seriously unless the reasons for being there are completely obvious.

.::UNKNOWN::.
09-29-2008, 01:14 AM
Neither plan will work as they dont address the reasons that health care is getting so expensive.

Indigent care is driving up the costs to hospitals and therefore to individuals and insurance companies. Anyone that has been in an emergency room in the last couple years knows what I am talking about. It is filled with people that do not have an emergency. They use the emergency room as a regular doctor. This also causes the level of care to go down as docs dont take people seriously unless the reasons for being there are completely obvious. hell not only that people that get sue happy does not help any either.... malpractice insurance is through the roof and a doctor has to have it to practice.... the best example i seen was when i was in florida on the news some lady went to some 3rd world country to have plastic surgery done bc it was cheaper... she got some excess skin removed on her arms and legs... she developed gang green in 1 arm and both legs and went to the emergency room... the doctors spent hours trying to save her arm and legs and it finally came to the option while she was on the operating table to amputate of let her die.... they amputated her limbs affected.... she sues them for 30 million dollars for not doin every thing they could.... it was classic bc the doctor said if her could forsee the future he would have let her stupid ass die....:lmfao:

stephen
09-29-2008, 05:56 AM
obama's plan seems more beneficial to us considering the current cost of living, and it also has a point to address the rising cost issue.


Senator John McCain's (R-AZ) health plan would eliminate the current tax exclusion of employer payments for health coverage, replace the exclusion with a refundable tax credit for those who purchase coverage, and encourage Americans to move to a national market for nongroup insurance. Middle-range estimates suggest that initially this change will have little impact on the number of uninsured people, although within five years this number will likely grow as the value of the tax credit falls relative to rising health care costs. Moving toward a relatively unregulated nongroup market will tend to raise costs, reduce the generosity of benefits, and leave people with fewer consumer protections. [Health Affairs 27, no. 6 (2008): w472-w481 (published online 16 September 2008; 10.1377/ hlthaff.27.6.w472)

if employers lose their tax credits, naturally, they'll stop offering healthcare options, forcing people to go out and purchase their own healthcare (it'd become more expensive for companies to offer it). if any of you have had to go purchase COBRA health insurance, then you know how bad this can get. also...there's another key word in there that we should all fear given the most recent events in our economy...UNREGULATED. we've seen what unregulation gets us...dot com bubble...subprime lending...$700B bail-out. the issue with the current healthcare regulations is that they need to be revised, not removed. when it's already difficult to find/keep a job, afford fuel and homes, why create another expensive necessity? not to mention, george bush has already attempted something like this, just not to this extreme, HSA. HSA is actually pretty good (i had one with my last job), but if jobs won't offer insurance, or rates go up, then it's practically useless.


The health reform plan put forth by Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) focuses on expanding insurance coverage and provides new subsidies to individuals, small businesses, and businesses experiencing catastrophic expenses. It greatly increases the federal regulation of private insurance but does not address the core economic incentives that drive health care spending. This omission along with the very substantial short-term savings claimed raise serious questions about its fiscal sustainability. Heavy regulation coupled with a fallback National Health Plan and a play-or-pay financing choice also raise questions about the future of the employer insurance market. [Health Affairs 27, no. 6 (2008): w462-w471 (published online 16 September 2008; 10.1377/hlthaff.27.6.w462)

NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGE....NOT FREE HEALTHCARE. here...i'll give 2 links. one link with be FOR this plan, and the other AGAINST the plan. both have good info. atleast some of you will KNOW what you're arguing against...geez. he does have a point in his policy to limit malpractice insurance, which is one way to address the rising cost issue.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Healthcare/wm1230.cfm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2008-09-11-2075765460_x.htm?loc=interstitialskip

BanginJimmy
09-29-2008, 06:35 AM
I agree that malpractice is an issue, but its really does pale in comparison to indigent care.

When someone with no insurance, or money, comes into the energency room with a belly ache the hospital still has to pay the docs working the emergency room even though they dont get paid. To offset those costs they raise the price on everything else, $7.00 per pill asperin etc. In turn, health insurance rates and co-pays go up to offset the costs to the insurance companies.

4dmin
09-29-2008, 08:07 AM
All I can say is that I feel bad for my friends that are paying $$$$$$ to attend medical school right now. Once healthcare is socialized (which will happen sooner or later with the democrats taking over) doctors will make no good money at all. The democrats do not realize that if you let the private sector take over healthcare the cost will decrease dramatically because of competition! If the government provides healthcare to everyone the cost of healthcare will only rise. People from Canada that have money make trips to the U.S. to get procedures done and are willing to pay for it because in Canada you have to wait 3 years to get damn stitches! Voters need to look at Canada's healthcare system before voting for someone who wants to socialize healthcare.


My stepfather was a pathologist and owned Alcovy Pathology which operated at Newton General Hospital for 20 years and he is now an executive at a private hospital. He said that if he were my age and trying to decide on a career path that he would not chose anything to do with being a physician because you will be working for the government very soon.

you are gravely incorrect. doctors will not make any less than they do down. actually they may make more money. the problem w/ the healthcare system is that it is broken. my wife is a Doctor of Pharmacy and i spent 6 years working for one of the largest TPAs in the US. as Jimmy stated - tons of people dont' pay so they roll the cost into other areas 7$ a pill for something that cost .50. this is also why man doctors of all professions have moved to not dealing w/ health insurance companies and putting that burden back on the consumer.

if more people have affordable healthcare that means more money for those who provide care. why do you think places like grady can barely make it?

you are also don't understand what socialized medicine is. he isn't proposing giving over healthcare to the gov't - he is trying to give affordable healthcare to those who dont' have it; especially children. why shouldn't you or I be able to have access to the same healthcare tax payers pay for washington to have? the plan is basically like creating group benefits plan under gov buying power. making it available and affordable for americans who can't get healthcare from their employers.

healthcare is all about buying power - claim history. that is why larger companies have better benefits.

BanginJimmy
09-29-2008, 09:30 AM
The problem with Obama's plan is that it doesnt fix anything. It just adds another mismanaged govt program to my tax bill. Look at the plan that senators have, if you cant afford personal major medical, you cant afford that plan. That is, unless the govt subsidises it. That plan would cost a family of 4 (mom, dad, 2 brats) around 2k a month. A major medical plan for the same family would cost less than half of that on the open market.

http://www.ncpa.org/~ncpa/health/pdh5.html


One estimate states that fraud and abuse cost Medicare and Medicaid about $33 billion each year

Like I asid before. Add another 45 million people under the same types of regulation and you will see that number top 100B YEARLY.

tony
09-29-2008, 09:44 AM
newsflash if you want healthcare you can get it you just have to pay for it. Why should the government make it free? That's retarded.


That logic is simply amazing to me. No disrespect to you Mike cause I once had the mentality you do, but that is the 'im not rich but i plan to be so I'm going to act like I'm rich now' mentality.

Healthcare is not a product you buy off of the shelf, it is not optional.. it is a necessity to society. There is zero room for haves and have nots as it pertains to healthcare.. everyone should have a right to it whether they can afford it or not.

As a potential business owner I would think you'd be for Universal healthcare, the aspiring entrepreneur who has two kids and cannot leave their job because they need health coverage should absolutely embrace a Universal System. It is for the betterment of society in so many ways. I guarantee you would see a lot more entrepreneurshipand innovation if there was a universal system, and the country would be better for it.

tony
09-29-2008, 09:47 AM
By the way, healthcare.. social securty.. education.. "We're spending too much, its too expensive!"

Government bailout, War, stock market crash "Bring in the money"

If an individual sees no problem in that, you need your right to vote revoked.

BanginJimmy
09-29-2008, 10:10 AM
Healthcare is not a product you buy off of the shelf, it is not optional.. it is a necessity to society. There is zero room for haves and have nots as it pertains to healthcare.. everyone should have a right to it whether they can afford it or not.


This same thing could be said of the banking and energy industries. Do you believe the govt should put its hand even deepeer into those industries?

tony
09-29-2008, 10:15 AM
This same thing could be said of the banking and energy industries. Do you believe the govt should put its hand even deepeer into those industries?

Banking, no. Economically energy being unregulated isn't necessarily beneficial to the people. Competition doesn't make the delivery of energy any more efficient than say.. an Oligopoly.

BanginJimmy
09-29-2008, 10:42 AM
Banking, no.

So much of our lives are tied to banking and credit that they are requirements. You can barely get auto insurance without at elast average credit. You cannot get utilities in the apartment you cant qualify for without credit.



Economically energy being unregulated isn't necessarily beneficial to the people. Competition doesn't make the delivery of energy any more efficient than say.. an Oligopoly.

I dont know about this. I am saving more a 5 cents a therm for NG for the next 12 months because of competition between private corporations. I filled up my gas tank for 4 cents a gallon cheaper, less than 500 yards further down the road because of competition.

Regulation is a bit different though. There HAS to be some types of regulation on ANY publically traded corporation. That regulation should also stop at the shareholders.

AlanŽ
09-29-2008, 10:47 AM
By the way, healthcare.. social securty.. education.. "We're spending too much, its too expensive!"

Government bailout, War, stock market crash "Bring in the money"

If an individual sees no problem in that, you need your right to vote revoked.
I'm convinced social security won't be around for my generation.

Healthcare-I gotta agree with mike

Education-I think it needs to be reformed. It's not what we are spending it's what we are getting for what we are spending

Bailout-I still don't agree with it

Stock Market-We needed to do somethig but the longer we put off letting the economy take its n atural course the worse it will get

War-Ehh. It's too late. What's done is done. We need to finish the job and be done.

Vteckidd
09-29-2008, 11:06 AM
That logic is simply amazing to me. No disrespect to you Mike cause I once had the mentality you do, but that is the 'im not rich but i plan to be so I'm going to act like I'm rich now' mentality.

Healthcare is not a product you buy off of the shelf, it is not optional.. it is a necessity to society. There is zero room for haves and have nots as it pertains to healthcare.. everyone should have a right to it whether they can afford it or not.

As a potential business owner I would think you'd be for Universal healthcare, the aspiring entrepreneur who has two kids and cannot leave their job because they need health coverage should absolutely embrace a Universal System. It is for the betterment of society in so many ways. I guarantee you would see a lot more entrepreneurshipand innovation if there was a universal system, and the country would be better for it.

I PAY for my healthcare, it costs me a whopping $177 a month. WOW. When i worked for Mainstream and Batlground, 2 PRIVATELY OWNED BUSINESSES, i never had healthcare, it was too expensive for them to offer it.

But i dont think they should be REQUIRED TO OFFER IT. I merely just had to pay for it, out of my pocket.

Requiring people to provide or pay for healthare (which you can spin it ll you want that is what Obama and Hillary both wanted) will just add COST and EXPENSES to the small business owner, couple that with Obamas increase in taxes, and yeah, watch jobs dry up.

So whats next Tony, Govt funded Auto Insurance? Govt Funded Housing Insurance? Govt Funded Renters Insurance?

Healthcare is a neccisity, and something needs to be done about it, but Government run Healthcare is RETARDED. Since when has the Govt run a business succesfully?

AlanŽ
09-29-2008, 11:39 AM
I PAY for my healthcare, it costs me a whopping $177 a month. WOW. When i worked for Mainstream and Batlground, 2 PRIVATELY OWNED BUSINESSES, i never had healthcare, it was too expensive for them to offer it.

But i dont think they should be REQUIRED TO OFFER IT. I merely just had to pay for it, out of my pocket.

Requiring people to provide or pay for healthare (which you can spin it ll you want that is what Obama and Hillary both wanted) will just add COST and EXPENSES to the small business owner, couple that with Obamas increase in taxes, and yeah, watch jobs dry up.

So whats next Tony, Govt funded Auto Insurance? Govt Funded Housing Insurance? Govt Funded Renters Insurance?

Healthcare is a neccisity, and something needs to be done about it, but Government run Healthcare is RETARDED. Since when has the Govt run a business succesfully?
404 Successful Govt. business not found

tony
09-29-2008, 12:48 PM
404 Successful Govt. business not found


You know.. maybe you're right.

Lets privatize police protection, if you havent paid your bill and your house gets robbed.. oh well, you should've been able to pay your premium.

Or maybe, education. Oh, not current on your education coverage? Sorry, your child will have to make due with their 2nd grade reading level.

Securities and Exchange Commission, the Department of Defense, USDA, Veterans Affairs, DEA, FBI and the list goes on.

Granted these programs arent the most efficient but they meet the needs of the people and that is all that is required of them.

BanginJimmy
09-29-2008, 12:57 PM
Lets privatize police protection, if you havent paid your bill and your house gets robbed.. oh well, you should've been able to pay your premium.

Everyone pays a premium for this. It is called taxes. I also keep a lock close to the bed just in case.


Or maybe, education. Oh, not current on your education coverage? Sorry, your child will have to make due with their 2nd grade reading level.

Private education and home schooling are far superior to govt enducation. It has been priven time and time again.


Securities and Exchange Commission, the Department of Defense, USDA, Veterans Affairs, DEA, FBI and the list goes on.

Granted these programs arent the most efficient but they meet the needs of the people and that is all that is required of them.

Since when have any of these agencies met the needs of their prospective clients. Drugs are everywhere, crime is everywhere, VA hospitals are known for terrible service and only mediocre medical care, DoD is so full of corruption that eliminating it could remove nealy 100B a year from its budget without any noticable difference.

tony
09-29-2008, 01:02 PM
Everyone pays a premium for this. It is called taxes. I also keep a lock close to the bed just in case.



Private education and home schooling are far superior to govt enducation. It has been priven time and time again.



Since when have any of these agencies met the needs of their prospective clients. Drugs are everywhere, crime is everywhere, VA hospitals are known for terrible service and only mediocre medical care, DoD is so full of corruption that eliminating it could remove nealy 100B a year from its budget without any noticable difference.

Just curious, what was the highest level of school you finished? I ask more on your response to education than anything.

Department of Defense is the military by the way, you'd have to be a genius to get rid of it.

AlanŽ
09-29-2008, 01:22 PM
Just curious, what was the highest level of school you finished? I ask more on your response to education than anything.

Department of Defense is the military by the way, you'd have to be a genius to get rid of it.
He didn't say get rid of it. He said get rid of the corruption

AlanŽ
09-29-2008, 01:27 PM
You know.. maybe you're right.

Lets privatize police protection, if you havent paid your bill and your house gets robbed.. oh well, you should've been able to pay your premium.

Or maybe, education. Oh, not current on your education coverage? Sorry, your child will have to make due with their 2nd grade reading level.

Securities and Exchange Commission, the Department of Defense, USDA, Veterans Affairs, DEA, FBI and the list goes on.

Granted these programs arent the most efficient but they meet the needs of the people and that is all that is required of them.
Police protection is basically what we do best. The way I look at it it's just another army. Besides cops are some of the most wasteful, corrupt, people I have ever met. And the criminal justice system it supports isn't that great either.

Like jimmy said private and home school has been proven better than govt run school. Not to mention, in places like New York the teachers unions(supported by the Dems) have a strangle hold on the BOE there that teachers that have been found sleeping with students are still paid even though they don't teach. In Georgia unless you have a teaching degree you can't even go in to like an afterschool program and help out kids with math or science. And who blocked that? The unions.

tony
09-29-2008, 02:07 PM
Police protection is basically what we do best. The way I look at it it's just another army. Besides cops are some of the most wasteful, corrupt, people I have ever met. And the criminal justice system it supports isn't that great either.

Like jimmy said private and home school has been proven better than govt run school. Not to mention, in places like New York the teachers unions(supported by the Dems) have a strangle hold on the BOE there that teachers that have been found sleeping with students are still paid even though they don't teach. In Georgia unless you have a teaching degree you can't even go in to like an afterschool program and help out kids with math or science. And who blocked that? The unions.

Do they meet the needs of the people? Thats all I need to know

BanginJimmy
09-29-2008, 02:12 PM
Do they meet the needs of the people? Thats all I need to know


DoE does not meet the needs of the people.

DoD meets the needs of the people.

DEA does not

FBI does

stephen
09-29-2008, 03:21 PM
DoE does not meet the needs of the people.

DoD meets the needs of the people.

DEA does not

FBI does

DOE: do you have children? do you send them to public school? did you go to public school? how many people truly have the time to home school their children?

DEA: while i agree with you to an extent, but the DEA does still make drug bust. it's impossible to clean ALL drugs off of our streets. is your neighborhood infested with drugs? is there a "trap" on the corner of your street? do you and your glock go to war with major drug cartels that are responsible for putting drugs on the streets?

any government run system has its flaws of not being 100% efficient. that still doesn't take away from the fact that it works.

tony
09-29-2008, 03:31 PM
any government run system has its flaws of not being 100% efficient. that still doesn't take away from the fact that it works.


My point exactly, I have a spanish professor from North Africa. In her country education up to college is provided as well as healthcare, she says that while things are not lavish they adequately meet the needs of the people and for that the people are better for it.

She stated the schools have set standards that kids MUST meet. Private schools are looked down upon because they are for students that could not hack it in public schools.

In summary vs the american system she said that a universal system works when the government is most concerned about the people with minimal corruption. I wouldn't quote her if I didnt absolutely believe her assessment.

Brick
09-29-2008, 03:31 PM
cops are some of the most wasteful, corrupt, people I have ever met.

I could say that about any group of people in any line of work.

AlanŽ
09-29-2008, 03:45 PM
My point exactly, I have a spanish professor from North Africa. In her country education up to college is provided as well as healthcare, she says that while things are not lavish they adequately meet the needs of the people and for that the people are better for it.

She stated the schools have set standards that kids MUST meet. Private schools are looked down upon because they are for students that could not hack it in public schools.

In summary vs the american system she said that a universal system works when the government is most concerned about the people with minimal corruption. I wouldn't quote her if I didnt absolutely believe her assessment.
The problem is that you are comparing systems of two different countries with 2 very different cultures.

That's there this is here. What works in other places may not work here.

There is a reason why socialized program here in THIS country don't work. It's because the government doesn't give a damn about the people. People in Washingtn are simply looking to further their own careers regardless of what their people want. Which is exactly why socialized programs don't work in this country.

For the first time in a while some of those people are finally listening to what their consituents want with this bailout. And you know what it's about time.

stephen
09-29-2008, 04:12 PM
The problem is that you are comparing systems of two different countries with 2 very different cultures.

That's there this is here. What works in other places may not work here.

There is a reason why socialized program here in THIS country don't work. It's because the government doesn't give a damn about the people. People in Washingtn are simply looking to further their own careers regardless of what their people want. Which is exactly why socialized programs don't work in this country.

For the first time in a while some of those people are finally listening to what their consituents want with this bailout. And you know what it's about time.

that's the point. obama's plan is to look out more for the people, not washington. increased social programs, tax breaks for the MAJORITY, and re-vamping regulations sounds more like looking out for the people rather than washington.

and the bailout didn't fail because they were listening to the constituents. lol, it failed because of the strict clauses involved. with both plans (give $700B vs. offer "INSURANCE") will make the tax payers pay, REGARDLESS. atleast with the $700B plan the money in regulated as to how it will be spent, not paying these execs $1M per month salary, and giving the tax payers a piece of the pie. if they really wanted to listen, they'd do those execs like they do drug dealers...seize their funds & assets to pay for the plan.

BanginJimmy
09-29-2008, 04:22 PM
DOE: do you have children? do you send them to public school? did you go to public school? how many people truly have the time to home school their children?

No kids, I went to public school and had friends from the block that went to a private school. The younder one, 2 grades, was doing the same things in 6th grade as a regular student that i was doing in 8th as an honor student.


DEA: while i agree with you to an extent, but the DEA does still make drug bust. it's impossible to clean ALL drugs off of our streets. is your neighborhood infested with drugs? is there a "trap" on the corner of your street? do you and your glock go to war with major drug cartels that are responsible for putting drugs on the streets?

I'm not saying the DEA is worthless, but they dont meet expectations. Growing up I had a crack house a block over. It was reported dozens of times and as far as I know, it is still there. It was reported both locally and after no action was taken, to the feds.


any government run system has its flaws of not being 100% efficient. that still doesn't take away from the fact that it works.

I agree, and I honestly think Obama has good intentions with regards to healthcare. I just see it as another wasteful govt program along the same lines as Medicare/Medicaid. As much as $33B a year in fraud now, what happens if you add another 45 million people to the mix?

AlanŽ
09-29-2008, 04:30 PM
that's the point. obama's plan is to look out more for the people, not washington. increased social programs, tax breaks for the MAJORITY, and re-vamping regulations sounds more like looking out for the people rather than washington.

and the bailout didn't fail because they were listening to the constituents. lol, it failed because of the strict clauses involved. with both plans (give $700B vs. offer "INSURANCE") will make the tax payers pay, REGARDLESS. atleast with the $700B plan the money in regulated as to how it will be spent, not paying these execs $1M per month salary, and giving the tax payers a piece of the pie. if they really wanted to listen, they'd do those execs like they do drug dealers...seize their funds & assets to pay for the plan.
Wow are you that dense. Did you read anything I just wrote. The problem with socialized programs isn't because of the President. It's because of the people running them, The people in Congress etc.

The bailout failed for a lot of reasons. But that was a big one.

stephen
09-29-2008, 05:38 PM
Wow are you that dense. Did you read anything I just wrote. The problem with socialized programs isn't because of the President. It's because of the people running them, The people in Congress etc.

The bailout failed for a lot of reasons. But that was a big one.

you know something, an idiot/hypocrite with an opinion = YOU. i sit here and see you whine about all of this crap with "congress is only looking out for themselves, blah blah blah." i told your dumba.ss about this A LONG TIME AGO. remember the discussion we had, and i told you how delta execs cut pay for employess by 40% (for my mother in particular), and yet execs walked away with millions in their pockets. you defended that dumbsh.it with "well, they're probably more qualified, and deserve it." now your ignorant a.ss can see exactly what the hell i was talking about.

admin told you a long time ago, you better be ready when it's time to talk politics with the big boys. it's obvious, daddy pays for your schooling, bills, and shakes your wee wee when you piss, and the only gratitude you have to offer is riding on his political stance. grow up boy, and be a man. make some decisions for yourself. no one here is going to wipe your nose for you, so there's no need to ride their di.ck and try to make them your daddy too. it's sad that this country allows kids like you who aren't even legally allowed to make MORAL DECISIONS (buy cigs, alcohol, or even a lap dance), but can be allowed to vote. the only valid point that you've made is that the public school system is failing us, you being example number one. don't get mad at me for telling you like it is either....think about it, and adjust accordingly.

stephen
09-29-2008, 05:47 PM
...I agree, and I honestly think Obama has good intentions with regards to healthcare. I just see it as another wasteful govt program along the same lines as Medicare/Medicaid. As much as $33B a year in fraud now, what happens if you add another 45 million people to the mix?

i understand what you're saying, but you have to take the good with the bad. i just don't think mccain's plan is going to benefit us at all. i can't see mccain's plan having the slightest chance at working, i mean it's basically like what bush has already implemented with the HSA deal. giving us more money to spend on healthcare works if the prices don't inflate and if jobs continue to offer it (which they won't if it becomes more expensive for them). he offers more deregulation, which is the number one problem to begin with. obama's plan has the potential to not work out in the long-run, but given our current cost of living and a host of other economy related issues, it seems more beneficial to us RIGHT NOW.

AlanŽ
09-29-2008, 05:51 PM
you know something, an idiot/hypocrite with an opinion = YOU. i sit here and see you whine about all of this crap with "congress is only looking out for themselves, blah blah blah." i told your dumba.ss about this A LONG TIME AGO. remember the discussion we had, and i told you how delta execs cut pay for employess by 40% (for my mother in particular), and yet execs walked away with millions in their pockets. you defended that dumbsh.it with "well, they're probably more qualified, and deserve it." now your ignorant a.ss can see exactly what the hell i was talking about.

admin told you a long time ago, you better be ready when it's time to talk politics with the big boys. it's obvious, daddy pays for your schooling, bills, and shakes your wee wee when you piss, and the only gratitude you have to offer is riding on his political stance. grow up boy, and be a man. make some decisions for yourself. no one here is going to wipe your nose for you, so there's no need to ride their di.ck and try to make them your daddy too. it's sad that this country allows kids like you who aren't even legally allowed to make MORAL DECISIONS (buy cigs, alcohol, or even a lap dance), but can be allowed to vote. the only valid point that you've made is that the public school system is failing us, you being example number one. don't get mad at me for telling you like it is either....think about it, and adjust accordingly.
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

if you don't agree with me that's one thing fine. But don't sit hear and insult my intelligence. You have taken my argument and misconstrued it.You're trying to relate my argument in the private sector with my argument in Congress. As far as I'm concerned in the Private Sector you are on you're own. But congress is supposed to work for us. How is giving us a $700 Billion dollar bill and allowing people who couldn't afford the homes they bought in the first place to stay in them by penalizing those that could by rengotiationg the principle thus permanently lowering the values of those homes around it instead of just letting the market take care of itself.

Why are you so surprised that the republicans and 90+ democrats voted against it? Because their jobs are at stake. People angrilly calling in saying they don't want this is more than enough to have them vote against this sh*t. The bailout proposed has a lot of sh*t in it that absolutely makes no sense.

Please don't tell me that I need step up to play with the big boys. Just because I disagree with the majority of people on here doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about.

Yea my Dad pays for my bills, school, etc. And you're point is?Up until last year I was paying for all my own bills along with part of my Mom's so please do me a favor. Please firmly place you're foot in you're mouth and shut the fucc up on **** you have no idea about.

LOL last time I checked you could get a lap dance and buy cigs at 18 so...... :thinking:

You haven't told me anything like it is. It's just how you think it is based on what? My e-personality? :lmfao: :lmfao: Bish please we spend more on public schools than almost anybody yet we are 12th in the world.

Anyways I rest my case you got anything else dumb you want to say PM me by all means.

stephen
09-29-2008, 06:56 PM
lol, insult your intelligence!?! i can't insult what doesn't exist. you started the sh.it asking me if i'm "dense." private sector or congress, the idea is still the same. you have hardworking people, who were taken advantage of for benefit of the "higher up." it's the same P-R-I-N-C-I-P-L-E. delta took 40% of employee's wages (employees who are staying with the company), and giving execs WHO ARE LEAVING 40% MORE than their annual salary. then, they cried "BANKRUPT." did congress do anything to help out those employees and their families that were taken advantage of? how is that any different than the fannie mae deal? fannie mae execs were making $1M per month, with $.5M bonuses. now their plan went belly up, and they're asking for help, while still planning on keeping their $1.5M per month salaries, AT OUR EXPENSE.

90+ democrats were against it....SO WHAT. THE BILLED FAILED BY 12 VOTES. IT'S NOT A PARTISAN ISSUE. dems and conservatives both had dirty hands in the situation. lol, and if you want to make it a partisan issue, then the repubs were the idiots for changing their minds due to the speech of ONE individual.

lol, so you disagree with the majority? more like the majority disagrees WITH YOU. rarely do any of your political post make any sense.

oh ok...so last year you were what...18...19....? up until then you were able to support your mom and yourself, and now you can't? SO WHAT HAPPENED. naturally, if one can support others, then you should be able to continue to support yourself. i don't even have to know you, to know that's bullsh.it. go get some cigs and a lap dance, and stay away from the polls.

ok, so it's the government's fault that our schools are ranked so low!?! get real boy. see what i'm talking about? the is the "intelligence" that you consistanly offer, and expect it to be respected?

your e-personality tells a lot about your "live" personality, especially when you put your business out there. everything i mentioned came from what YOU said...not something i made up. i don't care to PM you anything. i'm just tired of seeing the ignorant sh.it you post & your weak attempts to insult people who point out your stupidity.

man
09-29-2008, 07:18 PM
That logic is simply amazing to me. No disrespect to you Mike cause I once had the mentality you do, but that is the 'im not rich but i plan to be so I'm going to act like I'm rich now' mentality.

No it's called the "I'd rather work hard than get handouts because I want what's best for the country" mentality... lol Or the "I'm not a selfish little baby" mentality...

AlanŽ
09-29-2008, 08:49 PM
lol, insult your intelligence!?! i can't insult what doesn't exist. you started the sh.it asking me if i'm "dense." private sector or congress, the idea is still the same. you have hardworking people, who were taken advantage of for benefit of the "higher up." it's the same P-R-I-N-C-I-P-L-E. delta took 40% of employee's wages (employees who are staying with the company), and giving execs WHO ARE LEAVING 40% MORE than their annual salary. then, they cried "BANKRUPT." did congress do anything to help out those employees and their families that were taken advantage of? how is that any different than the fannie mae deal? fannie mae execs were making $1M per month, with $.5M bonuses. now their plan went belly up, and they're asking for help, while still planning on keeping their $1.5M per month salaries, AT OUR EXPENSE.

90+ democrats were against it....SO WHAT. THE BILLED FAILED BY 12 VOTES. IT'S NOT A PARTISAN ISSUE. dems and conservatives both had dirty hands in the situation. lol, and if you want to make it a partisan issue, then the repubs were the idiots for changing their minds due to the speech of ONE individual.

lol, so you disagree with the majority? more like the majority disagrees WITH YOU. rarely do any of your political post make any sense.

oh ok...so last year you were what...18...19....? up until then you were able to support your mom and yourself, and now you can't? SO WHAT HAPPENED. naturally, if one can support others, then you should be able to continue to support yourself. i don't even have to know you, to know that's bullsh.it. go get some cigs and a lap dance, and stay away from the polls.

ok, so it's the government's fault that our schools are ranked so low!?! get real boy. see what i'm talking about? the is the "intelligence" that you consistanly offer, and expect it to be respected?

your e-personality tells a lot about your "live" personality, especially when you put your business out there. everything i mentioned came from what YOU said...not something i made up. i don't care to PM you anything. i'm just tired of seeing the ignorant sh.it you post & your weak attempts to insult people who point out your stupidity.
Forget it talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.

BanginJimmy
09-29-2008, 10:15 PM
i understand what you're saying, but you have to take the good with the bad. i just don't think mccain's plan is going to benefit us at all. i can't see mccain's plan having the slightest chance at working, i mean it's basically like what bush has already implemented with the HSA deal. giving us more money to spend on healthcare works if the prices don't inflate and if jobs continue to offer it (which they won't if it becomes more expensive for them). he offers more deregulation, which is the number one problem to begin with. obama's plan has the potential to not work out in the long-run, but given our current cost of living and a host of other economy related issues, it seems more beneficial to us RIGHT NOW.


Deregulation is not the main reason for rising healthcare costs.

1. Indigent care is draining resources from hospitals, thus driving up costs to paying patients, or ,more times than not, insurance pays a large majority of that added cost. To curb their losses, insurance companies have to raise their premiums and their copays.

2. Mass tort law and huge settlements. I'm the first to agree that if a company knowingly does wrong they should be severly punished. The problem I see is that pharmacudicals, and to a smaller degree doctors, are being slammed with huge punitive damages suits even if they had done everything in their power to prove a particular medication is safe. I wont agrue with compensatory damages though.


If those 2 areas are reigned in I can see the costs of health care coming down dramaticly. As I said, neither Obama's nor McCain's plan addresses the reasons for rising healthcare. They only address the end results.

Now as far as fraud in the current system goes, the govt could add 10x the number of investigators to curb the fraud and save $30B a year on the low side. I also believe it should be MUCH harder to receive medicare certification. Especially now, when jobs are getting harder to find, adding 50K new well paying jobs, while still saving taxpayer money would be a great idea.

stephen
09-29-2008, 11:06 PM
Deregulation is not the main reason for rising healthcare costs.

1. Indigent care is draining resources from hospitals, thus driving up costs to paying patients, or ,more times than not, insurance pays a large majority of that added cost. To curb their losses, insurance companies have to raise their premiums and their copays.

2. Mass tort law and huge settlements. I'm the first to agree that if a company knowingly does wrong they should be severly punished. The problem I see is that pharmacudicals, and to a smaller degree doctors, are being slammed with huge punitive damages suits even if they had done everything in their power to prove a particular medication is safe. I wont agrue with compensatory damages though.


If those 2 areas are reigned in I can see the costs of health care coming down dramaticly. As I said, neither Obama's nor McCain's plan addresses the reasons for rising healthcare. They only address the end results.

Now as far as fraud in the current system goes, the govt could add 10x the number of investigators to curb the fraud and save $30B a year on the low side. I also believe it should be MUCH harder to receive medicare certification. Especially now, when jobs are getting harder to find, adding 50K new well paying jobs, while still saving taxpayer money would be a great idea.

i see what you're saying, and that's really a great idea. as i stated before though, obama does have one clause in his policy that SLIGHTLY attempts to curb the rising cost...by putting a cap on malpractice insurance. that's the sort of thing i'm referring to when i talk about regulations. i understand that's not the ONLY way to address the problem, but it's a lot better than deregulating (which is part of mccain's plan).

BanginJimmy
09-30-2008, 11:18 AM
i see what you're saying, and that's really a great idea. as i stated before though, obama does have one clause in his policy that SLIGHTLY attempts to curb the rising cost...by putting a cap on malpractice insurance. that's the sort of thing i'm referring to when i talk about regulations. i understand that's not the ONLY way to address the problem, but it's a lot better than deregulating (which is part of mccain's plan).

Capping malpractice insurance, does that mean premiums, coverage, or payouts? Caps on any of those will do nothing. There MUST be a set of guidelines for juries to use when awarding settlements. I can see compesatory damages for a bad decision, but there is no need for punative damages in any case where there isnt proof that the party being sued was knowingly indifferent to the health and safety of those that were injured.

stephen
09-30-2008, 08:04 PM
Capping malpractice insurance, does that mean premiums, coverage, or payouts? Caps on any of those will do nothing. There MUST be a set of guidelines for juries to use when awarding settlements. I can see compesatory damages for a bad decision, but there is no need for punative damages in any case where there isnt proof that the party being sued was knowingly indifferent to the health and safety of those that were injured.

he wants to cap coverage. insurers charge doctors an arm and a leg, which causes them to charge us 2 arms and 2 legs to make up the difference. like i said, it's not going to completely solve the problem, but it does atleast address one portion of it. neither plan is fool proof, but obama atleast has a decent start.

BanginJimmy
09-30-2008, 09:13 PM
he wants to cap coverage. insurers charge doctors an arm and a leg, which causes them to charge us 2 arms and 2 legs to make up the difference. like i said, it's not going to completely solve the problem, but it does atleast address one portion of it. neither plan is fool proof, but obama atleast has a decent start.


I actually think that plan will make matters worse. It will encourage docs to keep more cash on hand than they do now so they can afford it if they get sued. A doc I was in Afghanistan had 50M worth of coverage, and He told me others hat kept as mush as 250M.

What needs to happen is tighter restrictions on what you can sue for. Even as far as saying that if you sue and lose, you pay for the defense.