BEWARE charismatic men who preach change.

[willum14pb]

Richmond Times-Dispatch
Letters To The Editor
Monday, Jul 07, 2008 - 12:09 AM



Beware Charismatic Men Who Preach ‘Change’

Editor, Times-Dispatch:


Each year I get to celebrate Independence Day twice. On June 30 I celebrate my independence day and on July 4 I celebrate America’s. This year is special, because it marks the 40th anniversary of my independence.
On June 30, 1968, I escaped Communist Cuba and a few months later I was in the United States to stay. That I happened to arrive in Richmond on Thanksgiving Day is just part of the story, but I digress.


I’ve thought a lot about the anniversary this year. The election-year rhetoric has made me think a lot about Cuba and what transpired there. In the late 1950s, most Cubans thought Cuba needed a change, and they were right. So when a young leader came along, every Cuban was at least receptive.


When the young leader spoke eloquently and passionately and denounced the old system, the press fell in love with him. They never questioned who his friends were or what he really believed in. When he said he would help the farmers and the poor and bring free medical care and education to all, everyone followed. When he said he would bring justice and equality to all, everyone said ‘Praise the Lord.’ And when the young leader said, ‘I will be for change and I’ll bring you change,’ everyone yelled, ‘Viva Fidel!’


But nobody asked about the change, so by the time the executioner’s guns went silent the people’s guns had been taken away. By the time everyone was equal, they were equally poor, hungry, and oppressed. By the time everyone received their free education it was worth nothing. By the time the press noticed, it was too late, because they were now working for him.



By the time the change was finally implemented Cuba had been knocked down a couple of notches to Third-World status. By the time the change was over more than a million people had taken to boats, rafts, and inner tubes. You can call those who made it ashore anywhere else in the world the most fortunate Cubans. And now I’m back to the beginning of my story.
Luckily, we would never fall in America for a young leader who promised change without asking, what change? How will you carry it out? What will it cost America?

Would we?



Manuel Alvarez Jr. Sandy Hook.VA

[tony]

Know who else was charismatic and called for change?

J.F.K, Martin Luther King, Hitler can be added to that list.. Lincoln, Stalin, Clinton, and the list goes on.

See where I'm going, just because a leader is charismatic doesn't mean he can be compared to other charismatic leaders, each serve their own cause and purpose. Leaders who posses charisma typically oppose the status quo and do so in a unique way.. that is the only thing they have in common.

[willum14pb]

I knew someone would point that out tony, so think of it this way.


The point of the article was to illuminate the fact that blindly promoting change can be dangerous - particularly when it's promoted by a socialist.

[Total_Blender]

Your post fails to establish a connection between Obama and Cuba. I don't think you provided a source saying that Obama is advocating a guerrilla warfare campaign to overthrow the United States government so what is your point exactly?:screwy:

[willum14pb]

socialism = socialism.

[Total_Blender]

socialism = socialism.

And doo doo stinks. Much like this thread.

I really don't see Obama as a socialist. And I have yet to see any of those who say:

OMGOBAMAISASOCIALISTHEWILLTAXYOURMONEY100%ANDUSEIT FORWELFAREANDSTUFF

to successfully argue the point that Obama is a dyed in the wool socialist. I could call McChicken a Nazi, and while he does favor some of the things that Nazis do I don't think he is a card carrying Nazi. At least I hope not :ninja:

[willum14pb]

actually, obama promotes everything a socialist promotes. "mcchicken" as you call him, which is pretty ignorant and makes me not even want to respond to you, because you obviously have a personal problem with him, in no way resembles a nazi. He does not seek to diminish an entire race or take over europe.

[willum14pb]

let's run though Obama's solutions for our economy:

- Energy Prices - SOCIALISM (spend billions to pay people to think of solutions, and fine other people who have solutions for not having better solutions)

- The economy in general - SOCIALISM (in general)

- Our wars - (end it so we can pay for) SOCIALISM

- healthcare (distant fourth at this point) - SOCIALISM

[bafbrian]

Castro was a man who always talked of future change. In a recent documentary of his life, many who were in his inner circle referred to him as "A Man of the Future". They even said that while Castro was an eloquent speaker, if there was no future tense in Spanish, he would be speechless.

[Total_Blender]

actually, obama promotes everything a socialist promotes. "mcchicken" as you call him, which is pretty ignorant and makes me not even want to respond to you, because you obviously have a personal problem with him, in no way resembles a nazi. He does not seek to diminish an entire race or take over europe.

Neither does Obama want to end free enterprise or punish small business owners.

I call him McChicken because he's attempting to maneuver around the debate. And because of the way Mac flat out lied to his personal friend David Letterman and told him he needed to cancel his appearance on Dave's show because he was on the way to DC when if fact he hadn't even left the building and was doing an interview with Katie Couric. Isn't it lying to ones friends when you can't own up to the truth that makes one a chicken.

bawkbawkbawkbawkbawkbawk

http://www.joshilynjackson.com/mt/archives/big_chicken.jpg

[willum14pb]

Neither does Obama want to end free enterprise or punish small business owners.

I call him McChicken because he's attempting to maneuver around the debate. And because of the way Mac flat out lied to his personal friend David Letterman and told him he needed to cancel his appearance on Dave's show because he was on the way to DC when if fact he hadn't even left the building and was doing an interview with Katie Couric. Isn't it lying to ones friends when you can't own up to the truth that makes one a chicken.

bawkbawkbawkbawkbawkbawk

http://www.joshilynjackson.com/mt/archives/big_chicken.jpg

have you taken the time to even view obama's tax cuts? The small business owners will take a huge hit. along with major corps. I really dont think you've researched anything, you're just talking out of your ass. Prior to your "mchicken" nick name he was "Mcnugget" what's the reasoning behind that? Because he's got "MC" in his last name, that's why. Don't be ignorant.

[Total_Blender]

- The economy in general - SOCIALISM (in general)

- Our wars - (end it so we can pay for) SOCIALISM

- healthcare (distant fourth at this point) - SOCIALISM

By your logic:

US Postal Service = socialism

public schools = socialism

GI Bill = socialism

VA = socialism

USDA = socialism

FDA = socialism

I'm sure that you benefit from receiving mail, getting a free public basic education, and knowing that your medications and food are safe. If you don't want to support socialism you can always go out of Montana or somewhere and join a cult.:screwy:

[Total_Blender]

Prior to your "mchicken" nick name he was "Mcnugget" .

Nuggets are chicken. Or at least they are supposed to be chicken. :ninja:

I see a strong correlation between comparing McCain to Mickey D's. Both offer what they claim to be substance but have reduced the quality of their output to a generic approximation of the substance they claim to offer.:goodjob:

[willum14pb]

By your logic:

US Postal Service = socialism

public schools = socialism

GI Bill = socialism

VA = socialism

USDA = socialism

FDA = socialism

I'm sure that you benefit from receiving mail, getting a free public basic education, and knowing that your medications and food are safe. If you don't want to support socialism you can always go out of Montana or somewhere and join a cult.:screwy:


This post here proves that you really get nothing that' ive posted and i will stop arguing with you. Anyone with an actual opinion with factual or otherwise evidence that doesn't resort to name calling and generalizations with no proof, im here to talk. However, please proceed to tell me how obama will benifit this country in any way. You do amuse me with your narrowmindedness.

[Jaimecbr900]

Your post fails to establish a connection between Obama and Cuba. I don't think you provided a source saying that Obama is advocating a guerrilla warfare campaign to overthrow the United States government so what is your point exactly?:screwy:

Seriously dude, you are so gun-ho to jump to Obama's defense that you fail to see to forest for the trees. Every single anti-Obama post finds you to be the very first to reply with some type of comeback. Stop and think for a sec before posting.

You failed to see the ironic point the OP was trying to make. It is, and correct me if I'm wrong William, that people should not blindly welcome "change" for the sake of "change" without questioning how that "change" is going to come about and at what price. The "connection" between the article and Obama is just that some new relatively new Johnny-come-lately charismatic speaker is preaching "change" and the masses are eating it up BECAUSE change right now is not a bad thing yet they are not truly asking anything further. Kinda like the old saying, "hook, line, and sinker..." The masses are following him, due to his charisma/skin color/preaching of change/promise of free healthcare/promise of lower taxes/etc, without ever taking the time to think about just how all those "changes" (which if you really look are no different than what old school dems on Capitol Hill have been TRYING to implement for years but since they've only had control of Washington for only 2 yrs they've been unsuccesful) are going to happen.

No infamous world leader ever took the podium and in their opening sentence SAID they wanted to kill people and take over the world. Doesn't mean they didn't TRY/ACHIEVE that LATER......:rolleyes: You can't win wars without first winning smaller battles. So just like the article said, leaders implement things that initially SEEM small and insignificant only to later turn it up to full tilt.

You totally failed to see the forest for the trees.

[willum14pb]

Seriously dude, you are so gun-ho to jump to Obama's defense that you fail to see to forest for the trees. Every single anti-Obama post finds you to be the very first to reply with some type of comeback. Stop and think for a sec before posting.

You failed to see the ironic point the OP was trying to make. It is, and correct me if I'm wrong William, that people should not blindly welcome "change" for the sake of "change" without questioning how that "change" is going to come about and at what price. The "connection" between the article and Obama is just that some new relatively new Johnny-come-lately charismatic speaker is preaching "change" and the masses are eating it up BECAUSE change right now is not a bad thing yet they are not truly asking anything further. Kinda like the old saying, "hook, line, and sinker..." The masses are following him, due to his charisma/skin color/preaching of change/promise of free healthcare/promise of lower taxes/etc, without ever taking the time to think about just how all those "changes" (which if you really look are no different than what old school dems on Capitol Hill have been TRYING to implement for years but since they've only had control of Washington for only 2 yrs they've been unsuccesful) are going to happen.

No infamous world leader ever took the podium and in their opening sentence SAID they wanted to kill people and take over the world. Doesn't mean they didn't TRY/ACHIEVE that LATER......:rolleyes: You can't win wars without first winning smaller battles. So just like the article said, leaders implement things that initially SEEM small and insignificant only to later turn it up to full tilt.

You totally failed to see the forest for the trees.

i essentially answered with this response in a very short sentence, it seems the more you try to explain things, the more he goes off on a tangent of not knowing what the hell he's talking about at all. And i hate the people saying "YEA CHANGE! WE NEED CHANGE, ANY CHANGE RIGHT NOW IS GOOD!!" Honestly, what an infantile position. I'll throw you in a cauldron of boiling oil, and then ask you if any change is good change. Ridiculously retarded position.

[Jaimecbr900]

i essentially answered with this response in a very short sentence.


So whatchu tryin' ta say......you don't like my post????:D JP. :goodjob:


For some reason, I can never write short responses.....:thinking: :D

[tony]

I tend to wonder if those who throw around "Socialism" have even studied the theory of it, if they did they would know that anyone presenting true socialist policy wouldn't be on the top of a major presidential ticket.

Calling Obama socialist is no different than me calling McCain racist for voting against the MLKing holiday, highly misconstrued and very misleading.

By the way, name one policy of Obama's that mentions:

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

[tony]

Actually now that I think about it, this bailout is more Socialist than anything Obama has proposed. Government ownership of private property.. hmm, highly backed by republicans too.

[willum14pb]

Actually now that I think about it, this bailout is more Socialist than anything Obama has proposed. Government ownership of private property.. hmm, highly backed by republicans too.


You need to get your facts straight, it's highly backed by the dem's and the republicans are against it. The dems have had control of the house and the senate since 2002. You can thank them for pork barrel spending and wasting everyones money.

[willum14pb]

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/

READ QUICKLY THROUGH THAT TONY AND I HOPE YOU CAN SEE HE PROMOTES SOCIALISM AT IT'S BEST.

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194965

please refer to my short analysis in this thread. There is more than one bill that obama wants to pass in which means of production are owned and controlled by the state. As well as new gov. institutions. DO SOME READING TONY. You are smarter than this. You had Ron Paul on your mind, and some how you've fallen for obama's platform.. i dont understand you.


ONE SMALL EXAMPLE;


Barack Obama and Joe Biden believe we can get broadband to every community in America

..by subsidizing it, and in effect, creating more monopolies in local markets.

[willum14pb]

Know who else was charismatic and called for change?

J.F.K, Martin Luther King, Hitler can be added to that list.. Lincoln, Stalin, Clinton, and the list goes on.




WHAT? how can you throw MLK in with hitler and stalin? Actually the only person that made any GOOD CHANGE was MLK, and you know what? He was the only one with a PLAN. He said i want change and here is how we can do it. AND HE EXECUTED IT. Stalin and Hitler promoted change BLINDLY WITH NO PLAN. They just said, we'll make it all better. JFK Lincoln and Clinton don't belong in there. Lincoln free'd slaves, that wasn't on his platform when he ran for president. he didn't change much.

[Jaimecbr900]

By the way, name one policy of Obama's that mentions:

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

-Nationalized Health Care.




2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

Direct quote from his own Chicago DSA (Democratic Socialists of America) where OBAMA was a keynote speaker as far back as 1996 and as recently as 2000 and which whole heartedly ENDORSES Obama today:

"When Obama participated in a 1996 UofC YDS Townhall Meeting on Economic Insecurity, much of what he had to say was well within the mainstream of European social democracy."

Quoted from a different source, but regarding the same topic:

"When Vermont Congressman,self-described socialist Bernie Sanders,decided he'd run for Senate:Obama came to Vermont to endorse him.Obama could have endorsed the logical candidate the slated Democratic candidate,but he choose socialist Bernie Sanders.Here's some of the quotes from the endorsement:Obama calls Bernie Sanders an "outstanding candidate",Obama says "things can change",Obama said "I want to make sure everybody is as enthusiastic as I am" concerning Bernie Sanders and "only a handful of wrong headed people don't like him."

This is a direct quote from a blog in reference to Obama's 2007 Ebony Magazine cover and subsequent USA Today article about his bid for the White House:

"Ebony Magazine (http://www.ebony.com/assembled/home.html)- January 2007
Is America ready for a socialist in the White House?

USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-16-obama-experience-cover_x.htm) asks the "big question" about Barak Obama today... But, it's not what you would think, if you knew anything about the junior senator from Illinois.

The elite media is keeping its distance from Barak's socialist past and present.
His Far Left voting record tells part of his Far Left story and his speeches and early days in New York dot the "i" and cross the "t" in socialist!

This is what Obama had to say about capitalism adn free enterprise (http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/mar/04/obama_criticizes_ownership_society/?state_regional) back in March 2006:



“The reason they don’t believe that government has a role in solving national problems is because they think government is the problem,” Obama said to approximately 1,500 people at the Kansas Democratic Party Washington Days convention.

Obama, a Democrat from Illinois, said Bush’s political philosophy consists of giving tax breaks and encouraging “everyone to go buy your own health care, your own retirement and security, your own child care, your own schools, your own private security forces, your own roads, your own levees.

“It’s called the ownership society. In our past there has been another name for it; it’s called social Darwinism. Every man or woman for him or herself,” he said.The Opinion Journal (http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/s/stix/2004/stix082204.htm) published an article on Obama back in August 2004:



Obama, an Illinois state senator representing the South Side of Chicago, is in fact a far-left politician who -- as I'll show in a future column -- seeks to force ever more socialist and racist laws and programs on the American people...

"Alongside my own deep personal faith, I am a follower, as well, of our civic religion," he says. "I am a big believer in the separation of church and state. I am a big believer in our constitutional structure. I mean, I'm a law professor at the University of Chicago teaching constitutional law. [Actually, Obama is not a law professor, but a "senior lecturer." As Chicago Sun-Times columnist Lynn Sweet has pointed out, and I know from six-and-a-half years as a college adjunct lecturer, "In academia, there is a vast difference between the two titles." As Sweet also notes, however, Obama's misrepresentation of his academic position is the least of his credibility problems.]

"I am a great admirer of our founding charter and its resolve to prevent theocracies from forming and its resolve to prevent disruptive strains of fundamentalism from taking root in this country. Newsmax (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/7/28/164147.shtml) is one source that reported on his connections to controversial billionaire George Soros back in 2004:



"A lot of his policies have the government taking care of people. Instead of giving people a leg up, he would rather give them a leg."

Soros initially was attracted to Obama because of his vision on education and health care, Vachon said. But Santos said if Obama got his way, the U.S. health care system would be worse than what Hillary Clinton proposed after her husband was elected president. She said voters should be wary of Obama's "any time, anywhere" stance on abortion.But, his socialist foundation was probably shaped most during those early days at the Socialist (Marxist) conferences he attended (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/488674p-411414c.html) in New York City:



Obama wrote that the wealth and stark racial divisions of Manhattan in the early 1980s had a profound effect on him...

He went to socialist conferences at Cooper Union and African cultural fairs in Brooklyn and started lecturing his relatives until they worried he'd become "one of those freaks you see on the streets around here."So, the real question that USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-16-obama-experience-cover_x.htm)should be asking- but won't -is not if America is ready for a "rookie" in the White House, but rather, if America is ready for a socialist in the White House!"





If for some reason, you guys still think Obama is not a Socialist......cool. :goodjob:

[willum14pb]

-Nationalized Health Care.





Direct quote from his own Chicago DSA (Democratic Socialists of America) where OBAMA was a keynote speaker as far back as 1996 and as recently as 2000 and which whole heartedly ENDORSES Obama today:

"When Obama participated in a 1996 UofC YDS Townhall Meeting on Economic Insecurity, much of what he had to say was well within the mainstream of European social democracy."

Quoted from a different source, but regarding the same topic:

"When Vermont Congressman,self-described socialist Bernie Sanders,decided he'd run for Senate:Obama came to Vermont to endorse him.Obama could have endorsed the logical candidate the slated Democratic candidate,but he choose socialist Bernie Sanders.Here's some of the quotes from the endorsement:Obama calls Bernie Sanders an "outstanding candidate",Obama says "things can change",Obama said "I want to make sure everybody is as enthusiastic as I am" concerning Bernie Sanders and "only a handful of wrong headed people don't like him."

This is a direct quote from a blog in reference to Obama's 2007 Ebony Magazine cover and subsequent USA Today article about his bid for the White House:

"Ebony Magazine (http://www.ebony.com/assembled/home.html)- January 2007
Is America ready for a socialist in the White House?

USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-16-obama-experience-cover_x.htm) asks the "big question" about Barak Obama today... But, it's not what you would think, if you knew anything about the junior senator from Illinois.

The elite media is keeping its distance from Barak's socialist past and present.
His Far Left voting record tells part of his Far Left story and his speeches and early days in New York dot the "i" and cross the "t" in socialist!

This is what Obama had to say about capitalism adn free enterprise (http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/mar/04/obama_criticizes_ownership_society/?state_regional) back in March 2006:


“The reason they don’t believe that government has a role in solving national problems is because they think government is the problem,” Obama said to approximately 1,500 people at the Kansas Democratic Party Washington Days convention.

Obama, a Democrat from Illinois, said Bush’s political philosophy consists of giving tax breaks and encouraging “everyone to go buy your own health care, your own retirement and security, your own child care, your own schools, your own private security forces, your own roads, your own levees.

“It’s called the ownership society. In our past there has been another name for it; it’s called social Darwinism. Every man or woman for him or herself,” he said.The Opinion Journal (http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/s/stix/2004/stix082204.htm) published an article on Obama back in August 2004:


Obama, an Illinois state senator representing the South Side of Chicago, is in fact a far-left politician who -- as I'll show in a future column -- seeks to force ever more socialist and racist laws and programs on the American people...

"Alongside my own deep personal faith, I am a follower, as well, of our civic religion," he says. "I am a big believer in the separation of church and state. I am a big believer in our constitutional structure. I mean, I'm a law professor at the University of Chicago teaching constitutional law. [Actually, Obama is not a law professor, but a "senior lecturer." As Chicago Sun-Times columnist Lynn Sweet has pointed out, and I know from six-and-a-half years as a college adjunct lecturer, "In academia, there is a vast difference between the two titles." As Sweet also notes, however, Obama's misrepresentation of his academic position is the least of his credibility problems.]

"I am a great admirer of our founding charter and its resolve to prevent theocracies from forming and its resolve to prevent disruptive strains of fundamentalism from taking root in this country. Newsmax (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/7/28/164147.shtml) is one source that reported on his connections to controversial billionaire George Soros back in 2004:


"A lot of his policies have the government taking care of people. Instead of giving people a leg up, he would rather give them a leg."

Soros initially was attracted to Obama because of his vision on education and health care, Vachon said. But Santos said if Obama got his way, the U.S. health care system would be worse than what Hillary Clinton proposed after her husband was elected president. She said voters should be wary of Obama's "any time, anywhere" stance on abortion.But, his socialist foundation was probably shaped most during those early days at the Socialist (Marxist) conferences he attended (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/488674p-411414c.html) in New York City:


Obama wrote that the wealth and stark racial divisions of Manhattan in the early 1980s had a profound effect on him...

He went to socialist conferences at Cooper Union and African cultural fairs in Brooklyn and started lecturing his relatives until they worried he'd become "one of those freaks you see on the streets around here."So, the real question that USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-16-obama-experience-cover_x.htm)should be asking- but won't -is not if America is ready for a "rookie" in the White House, but rather, if America is ready for a socialist in the White House!"





If for some reason, you guys still think Obama is not a Socialist......cool. :goodjob:



thank you. i did not feel like doing all that research. I just know from reading his platform and other things about him that he IS IN FACT socialist. You always go the extra mile for lazy people. (democrats) lolololol.

[4dmin]

socialist he is not - some of the his ideas can be taken as a socialist approach considering ignorance of americans on what a socialist is.

i see the "healthcare" topic was brought up as if national healthcare plan would make someone socialist. last i recall his idea doesn't do away w/ privatized healthcare but allows millions to have the same healthcare your elected officials are provided. this same type of medicine is being used all over the globe.

so please describe IN YOUR OWN WORDS what would make him a socialist and i'm not talking about your googled/blog searched BS. what policies/ideas of his make him a "SOCIALIST"?

not an example: (- Our wars - (end it so we can pay for) SOCIALISM)

[tony]

WHAT? how can you throw MLK in with hitler and stalin? Actually the only person that made any GOOD CHANGE was MLK, and you know what? He was the only one with a PLAN. He said i want change and here is how we can do it. AND HE EXECUTED IT. Stalin and Hitler promoted change BLINDLY WITH NO PLAN. They just said, we'll make it all better. JFK Lincoln and Clinton don't belong in there. Lincoln free'd slaves, that wasn't on his platform when he ran for president. he didn't change much.


I was speaking academically, not from opinion which you are doing. I am in the process of studying Charismatic Leadership, to respond to what you just stated would be a waste of time because you don't get it. Charisma doesn't necessarily mean the cause is for the good of the people.

And to say Lincoln changed much shows absolute ignorance.

On Obama, its funny that all quotes come from news sources but not one DIRECT reference to his policy on his website. He has not proposed Universal Healthcare, he is pushing for more AFFORDABLE healthcare.. nothing wrong with that.

I laugh at the notion that the bailout is a democratic proposal, it came from the Treasure Secretary under GEORGE BUSH, last time I checked that would be a Repub.

Bellsouth/AT&T is required to offer high speed internet to ALL residents of Georgia. If that is socialist then Sonny Perdue fits in there too. But honestly that is a really, really lame example of what is supposed to be socialist.

Obama, the great big bad socialist.. OoOoOoo when its the capitalist with greed in mind that has us in the situation we are currently in.

[stephen]

...i see the "healthcare" topic was brought up as if national healthcare plan would make someone socialist. last i recall his idea doesn't do away w/ privatized healthcare but allows millions to have the same healthcare your elected officials are provided. this same type of medicine is being used all over the globe....

THANK YOU! i tried explaining this before, but it seems like some people just don't get it!

[tony]

THANK YOU! i tried explaining this before, but it seems like some people just don't get it!

They just start another topic and you have to state the exact same point and the vicious cycle continues.

[v-empire]

this is small town politics and concerns.

go 'n brush yo shoulders off.

[stephen]

Direct quote from his own Chicago DSA (Democratic Socialists of America) where OBAMA was a keynote speaker as far back as 1996 and as recently as 2000 and which whole heartedly ENDORSES Obama today:

"When Obama participated in a 1996 UofC YDS Townhall Meeting on Economic Insecurity, much of what he had to say was well within the mainstream of European social democracy."

SOCIAL DEMOCRACY: a democratic welfare state that incorporates BOTH capitalist and socialist practices.

it has also been defined as "a political movement advocating a gradual and peaceful transition from capitalism to socialism by democratic means." this definition is null & void (in obama's situation)considering he can only hold office for 2 terms. in order to advocate a political movement, it has to be accepted by the masses, and continued for more than 8yrs.


Quoted from a different source, but regarding the same topic:

"When Vermont Congressman,self-described socialist Bernie Sanders,decided he'd run for Senate:Obama came to Vermont to endorse him.Obama could have endorsed the logical candidate the slated Democratic candidate,but he choose socialist Bernie Sanders.Here's some of the quotes from the endorsement:Obama calls Bernie Sanders an "outstanding candidate",Obama says "things can change",Obama said "I want to make sure everybody is as enthusiastic as I am" concerning Bernie Sanders and "only a handful of wrong headed people don't like him."

three points here:

1. SELF DESCRIBED socialist.
2. bernie sanders is a "democratic-socialist" (see definition above).
3. MCCAIN SUPPORTED BUSH/BUSH POLICIES 90% OF THE TIME...need i say more????


This is a direct quote from a blog in reference to Obama's 2007 Ebony Magazine cover and subsequent USA Today article about his bid for the White House:

"Ebony Magazine (http://www.ebony.com/assembled/home.html)- January 2007
Is America ready for a socialist in the White House?

lol, it's ebony magazine...AND A BLOG.


USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-16-obama-experience-cover_x.htm) asks the "big question" about Barak Obama today... But, it's not what you would think, if you knew anything about the junior senator from Illinois.

The elite media is keeping its distance from Barak's socialist past and present.
His Far Left voting record tells part of his Far Left story and his speeches and early days in New York dot the "i" and cross the "t" in socialist!

if USA Today knew anything about the junior senator from illinois, they'd know it's BARACK obama. where is this "far left voting record?" lol, and who determines the "ELITE" media??? lol, that's just ridiculous.


This is what Obama had to say about capitalism adn free enterprise (http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2006/mar/04/obama_criticizes_ownership_society/?state_regional) back in March 2006:



“The reason they don’t believe that government has a role in solving national problems is because they think government is the problem,” Obama said to approximately 1,500 people at the Kansas Democratic Party Washington Days convention.

Obama, a Democrat from Illinois, said Bush’s political philosophy consists of giving tax breaks and encouraging “everyone to go buy your own health care, your own retirement and security, your own child care, your own schools, your own private security forces, your own roads, your own levees.

“It’s called the ownership society. In our past there has been another name for it; it’s called social Darwinism. Every man or woman for him or herself,” he said.

this is what i don't understand about the republican view...how can you advocate "less government" in your words, and still promote government??? during the RNC, mccain talked about "less government less government less government." next thing you know, he's telling people who disagree with government policies and issues to JOIN government.

without government there wouldn't be a constitution, laws, homes, jobs, etc., all of the things WE LIVE BY. if government didn't have a hand in WAGES, healthcare, retirement & security, childcare, schools, private security forces, roads, and levees...how fu.cked up would we really be...seriously? imagine if our jobs didn't have wage guidlines and having to pay for everything previously mentioned. how grand would your life be if you were making $2 an hour as an engineer, and solely depending on your income to get you just the NECESSITIES in life. socialist ideas have to be incorporated at some point, otherwise we fail.

The Opinion Journal (http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/s/stix/2004/stix082204.htm) published an article on Obama back in August 2004:



Obama, an Illinois state senator representing the South Side of Chicago, is in fact a far-left politician who -- as I'll show in a future column -- seeks to force ever more socialist and racist laws and programs on the American people...

"Alongside my own deep personal faith, I am a follower, as well, of our civic religion," he says. "I am a big believer in the separation of church and state. I am a big believer in our constitutional structure. I mean, I'm a law professor at the University of Chicago teaching constitutional law. [Actually, Obama is not a law professor, but a "senior lecturer." As Chicago Sun-Times columnist Lynn Sweet has pointed out, and I know from six-and-a-half years as a college adjunct lecturer, "In academia, there is a vast difference between the two titles." As Sweet also notes, however, Obama's misrepresentation of his academic position is the least of his credibility problems.]

"I am a great admirer of our founding charter and its resolve to prevent theocracies from forming and its resolve to prevent disruptive strains of fundamentalism from taking root in this country.

ok, so he said he's a professor but he's really a lecturer....BIG DEAL. what about the point that he was making? he's discussing/teaching CONSTITUTIONAL LAW...regardless of the "proper name" for his title. if he were a janitor, then i'd understand the point. lol, and the article mentions his "racist' views....i guess we missed that part.


Newsmax (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/7/28/164147.shtml) is one source that reported on his connections to controversial billionaire George Soros back in 2004:



"A lot of his policies have the government taking care of people. Instead of giving people a leg up, he would rather give them a leg."

Soros initially was attracted to Obama because of his vision on education and health care, Vachon said. But Santos said if Obama got his way, the U.S. health care system would be worse than what Hillary Clinton proposed after her husband was elected president. She said voters should be wary of Obama's "any time, anywhere" stance on abortion.

i must've missed something...the article claims to quote GEORGE SOROS, but in the second sentence is says SANTOS (which is a far cry from a typo). then the final sentence starts of with SHE. were they just picking random quotes????


But, his socialist foundation was probably shaped most during those early days at the Socialist (Marxist) conferences he attended (http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/488674p-411414c.html) in New York City:



Obama wrote that the wealth and stark racial divisions of Manhattan in the early 1980s had a profound effect on him...

He went to socialist conferences at Cooper Union and African cultural fairs in Brooklyn and started lecturing his relatives until they worried he'd become "one of those freaks you see on the streets around here."So, the real question that USA Today (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-01-16-obama-experience-cover_x.htm)should be asking- but won't -is not if America is ready for a "rookie" in the White House, but rather, if America is ready for a socialist in the White House!"

back to the original definition of SOCIAL DEMOCRACY.
social democrat is more fitting. what title do we put on mccain???

[v-empire]

back to the original definition of SOCIAL DEMOCRACY.
social democrat is more fitting. what title do we put on mccain???


dumbass.

[Jaimecbr900]

It is utterly clear that no matter who or what I quote it's never going to satisfy Paul, Tony, nor Stephen. That is fine. I'm cool with that. I actually would rather debate with any one of you than any of the other Obama supporters who don't even know if they're a foot or horseback let alone their political stance.

Just don't keep saying that I have no "sources" or "proof" because I've tried time and time again to show all of you direct quotes with footnotes and links to where I've read the information. You guys don't want to quantify it as "proof", then like I said that's fine with me. But you will NEVER find any one source that is going to remain unbiased to one side or the other. It's impossible.

Not one single Obama supporter has bothered to show how ANY of what I've posted is totally 100% outright lie. It's an opposing viewpoint from somewhere, yes. Outright lie is a different beast, and none of you have yet to show where ANY of what I've posted is that.

[stephen]

It is utterly clear that no matter who or what I quote it's never going to satisfy Paul, Tony, nor Stephen. That is fine. I'm cool with that. I actually would rather debate with any one of you than any of the other Obama supporters who don't even know if they're a foot or horseback let alone their political stance.

Just don't keep saying that I have no "sources" or "proof" because I've tried time and time again to show all of you direct quotes with footnotes and links to where I've read the information. You guys don't want to quantify it as "proof", then like I said that's fine with me. But you will NEVER find any one source that is going to remain unbiased to one side or the other. It's impossible.

Not one single Obama supporter has bothered to show how ANY of what I've posted is totally 100% outright lie. It's an opposing viewpoint from somewhere, yes. Outright lie is a different beast, and none of you have yet to show where ANY of what I've posted is that.

you know, i enjoy debating politics with you. we went on for what, 4 days once. i prefer having a debate with someone who makes me do research, which you do.

when it comes to obama, there tends to be an insane amount of negatively biased information out there about him. think about all of the ridiculous stuff we've heard about this man: he's muslim, he'll help terrorist, he's racist, he wants to destroy the country, he wants to enslave white people, he's going to make weed legal, his wife hates our country, etc. now we have this thread, comparing the man to castro because of a slogan (the same slogan mccain began chanting at the RNC).

i wouldn't necessarily consider your sources (in this thread) liars, but the context in which they state their views is just extreme and at some points just flat out ridiculous. i think admin just wanted you to quote an official/government source as opposed to a blog,magazine, or news article that's mostly based off of someone's opinion.

[willum14pb]

if they did they would know that anyone presenting true socialist policy wouldn't be on the top of a major presidential ticket.


Huh? Why would that be impossible? The Democratic Party and the liberal Republicans have been foisting creeping Socialism for decades, and it's been ramped up heavily in the last 15 years. They very cornerstone of Socialist policy is a redistribution of wealth, and massive government programs and progressive taxation are vehicles to that end. The latest huge effort to socialize 10% of the US's GDP is Universal Health Care, and guess who's pushing for it? Obama is a Socialist.



Calling Obama socialist is no different than me calling McCain racist for voting against the MLKing holiday, highly misconstrued and very misleading.


Huh? Again? I have clearly fortified my argument by displaying Obama's strident Socialism. His entire platform is Socialist. Can you name a policy of his which shrinks government, and doesn't require heavier funding from those of higher classes? No? Then you fail at establishing that Obama is not a Socialist.



By the way, name one policy of Obama's that mentions:

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods


Universal Health Care. Ownership, btw, implies Communism. I have no doubt that would follow Socialism, as it always does when Socialism fails, but for now, we're speaking of Socialism, and not Communism. Administration, however, simply requires massive government oversight of social issues. Obama is looking to massively expand government power in this regard, with no more egregious example than Universal Health Care.



2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state


Again: Universal Health Care. And Social Security. And Public Education. Post Office. Any Massive Government Agency is guilty of fitting this definition. Keep in mind that Socialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia), according to Karl Marx, is the period of transition between Capitalism and Communism, and requires class struggle to complete the shift. How do classes struggle? By endorsing policy which pits one class against another. Obama's entire existence is based around the idea of rallying low and middle class people without economic understanding or moral fiscal principle to the idea that upper classes do not deserve to keep as high a percentage of their money as low and middle classes do. By promising to raise taxes on corporations and upper classes and by promising a service like health care be provided and administered through the government, Obama is defining the transition we know as Socialism.

And that just scratches the surface. Obama wants all sorts of government largesse for lower classes, at the forced expense of everyone else. Such a move is very damaging to an economy, and particularly so if the economy is in a down cycle, and fragile, as ours is now.

[drpepper14]

Socialist or not...

I do NOT want to pay a 30% capital gains tax when I sell my home, especially with the way the housing market is, and probably will be, for another 2 years.

[4dmin]

It is utterly clear that no matter who or what I quote it's never going to satisfy Paul, Tony, nor Stephen. That is fine. I'm cool with that. I actually would rather debate with any one of you than any of the other Obama supporters who don't even know if they're a foot or horseback let alone their political stance.

Just don't keep saying that I have no "sources" or "proof" because I've tried time and time again to show all of you direct quotes with footnotes and links to where I've read the information. You guys don't want to quantify it as "proof", then like I said that's fine with me. But you will NEVER find any one source that is going to remain unbiased to one side or the other. It's impossible.

Not one single Obama supporter has bothered to show how ANY of what I've posted is totally 100% outright lie. It's an opposing viewpoint from somewhere, yes. Outright lie is a different beast, and none of you have yet to show where ANY of what I've posted is that.

you called someone a socialist w/o supporting what a socialist is... do you know what being a socialist means? i know your a smart guy but you may want to wiki it.

[Big J]

Main Entry:
so·cial·ism Listen to the pronunciation of socialism
Pronunciation:
\ˈsō-shə-ˌli-zəm\
Function:
noun
Date:
1837

1: any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods2 a: a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b: a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state3: a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

[Big J]

Main Entry:
na·tion·al·ism Listen to the pronunciation of nationalism
Pronunciation:
\ˈnash-nə-ˌli-zəm, ˈna-shə-nə-ˌli-zəm\
Function:
noun
Date:
1844

1: loyalty and devotion to a nation ; especially : a sense of national consciousness exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups2: a nationalist movement or government

[Big J]

Main Entry:
in·ter·na·tion·al·ism Listen to the pronunciation of internationalism
Pronunciation:
\-ˈnash-nə-ˌli-zəm, -ˈna-shə-nə-ˌli-zəm\
Function:
noun
Date:
1851

1: international character, principles, interests, or outlook2 a: a policy of cooperation among nations b: an attitude or belief favoring such a policy

[tony]

Socialist or not...

I do NOT want to pay a 30% capital gains tax when I sell my home, especially with the way the housing market is, and probably will be, for another 2 years.

You do not pay capital gains on the sale of your house if you have been in it for 2 years.

[drpepper14]

I know this, but someone is trying to change that and charge a 30% capital gains tax...period.

[ShooterMcGavin]

nice article

[Total_Blender]

No infamous world leader ever took the podium and in their opening sentence SAID they wanted to kill people and take over the world. Doesn't mean they didn't TRY/ACHIEVE that LATER......:rolleyes: You can't win wars without first winning smaller battles. .

Yeah, the current President didn't run on that platform but we've got 4200 dead soldiers and an invasion/occupation that was strategically un-necessary. We've also lost our habeas corpus and most of our 4th amendment freedoms. The current administration and those who are campaigning under the same party are also seeking to dictate to people what choices they can and cannot make with their own bodies. They are selling all of this to the electorate based on a platform of ignorance and fear. They have exploited the events of 9/11 to further their own political agenda.

And as for the "socialist universal healthcare" proposal... Obama is trying to make the health insurance offered by most employers more affordable, so that people can actually afford that is already offered to them by the insurance companies. Having more people enrolled in private insurance will be a windfall to the insurance companies, which are not government owned. He's also providing tax breaks for small businesses that expand healthcare coverage to their employees.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/

[Total_Blender]

Full text of the Obama/Biden healthcare plan:

http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/issues/HealthCareFullPlan.pdf