You know what I hate about the sports car industry...

[man]

Nurburgring lap times.

In b4 bench racers

[alpine_aw11]

Yes, one track doesn't determine everything. But I mean if one car puts up a better time, then that says something. It's just a good track to measure cars against each other, it's done for a reason. Those track times mean a lot in the car world.

[EJ25RUN]

It's a very good measure but not the only measure.

[man]

but the track is 13 miles long, a couple seconds difference would be unnoticeable anywhere else, especially on the street (because how many people honestly race their cars on a track)...

[EJ25RUN]

but the track is 13 miles long, a couple seconds difference would be unnoticeable anywhere else, especially on the street (because how many people honestly race their cars on a track)...

But where else can a car be put through some many different conditions of driving and weather changes? You can't lie around that place with gearing.

I'm not gonna answer that second part cause i say you race at the track and that is all there is to it.

[81911SC]

It is a terrible way to determine anything. Drivers, tires, conditions, other drivers all affect it. Hell didn't Rohl pass 11 cars in the GT2 run? Come the **** on. That's insane.

[StraightSix]

How is it a terrible way to determine anything?

The thing that engineers look for is repeatable results for a certain testing algorithm. And, what better way to get as close to repeatable than using the same closed course for those tests. It's the closest that any engineering department will get to being able to test a car under "controlled" real world conditions.

Sure, drivers, tires, and weather will be factors in any cars' performance, but a race track will provide the best testing data outside of the lab.

[81911SC]

How is it a terrible way to determine anything?

The thing that engineers look for is repeatable results for a certain testing algorithm. And, what better way to get as close to repeatable than using the same closed course for those tests. It's the closest that any engineering department will get to being able to test a car under "controlled" real world conditions.

Sure, drivers, tires, and weather will be factors in any cars' performance, but a race track will provide the best testing data outside of the lab.I'm talking about comparing cars, quick.

[StraightSix]

Even so, I think comparing lap times from the 'ring is still a valid method of comparison for the reason stated above. The differences in times are certainly going to come down to some variables, but those variables can be minimized. Tracks like the 'ring have enough variation in elevation and corner radii to make the track a decent measuring stick for how a new model will perform out in the world.

[EJ25RUN]

Well look at it this way.

Many manufactures have built garages down the road from the track so that they don't have to take trips to the track. Like Six said, you can through a car out there and bring it back to adjust. Send it out again till you get as close as you can to what you want.

It would cost an incredible amount of money to build a place like the ring again and it just serves as a much better source for r&d than the test circuits they already use.

[81911SC]

Closed track, yes. Others driving, hell no. Damp, hell no.

[man]

I'm not gonna answer that second part cause i say you race at the track and that is all there is to it.

I agree 100% but most people will never take their car to a track and even when they do, they are generally just tracking, not racing. It's about the drive, not the times... unless money is involved (and guess where those races usually take place)

[Capt._Ron]

Well look at it this way.

Many manufactures have built garages down the road from the track so that they don't have to take trips to the track. Like Six said, you can through a car out there and bring it back to adjust. Send it out again till you get as close as you can to what you want.

It would cost an incredible amount of money to build a place like the ring again and it just serves as a much better source for r&d than the test circuits they already use.

This is a very valid point. The ring is great for r&d but the track is too long and there are far too many variables to make definative car to car comparisons. Some of the drivers have even admitted that if you throw caution to the wind and drive hard into blind spots you can shave significant time but I doubt all the drivers are willing to do that.

[Cool Cat Racing]

Hell no, if you screw the pooch on a corner you're going to die. This alone keeps many drivers from running 100%. Everyone backs off a little bit in spots. If you get a driver who just says fuc it you're going to have a faster time and then the whole world is going to jump on that time saying car A is faster than car B when all its really only the fact car A had a driver who didn't care if he died that day.

[Kaiser]

I guess all of you have a good point...

But I'm gonna point out: Real streetable cars need to be tuned on something LIKE the ring with an open road course where you indeed have to pass others and run in uncontrolled weather conditions. Life is random. Of course most of the more interesting race events are held regardless of weather, and many of them involve a pretty fair bit of passing and traffic.

What a bad comparison between cars and their racing (or streeting) capabilities is when you take a car and close the ring off on a perfect near windless bright sunny day at around 70 degrees. There's nothing at all that mars the perfectness of that run. However it also doesn't represent anything about the car in conditions anyone who cares about the comparison would be able to replicate.

[EJ25RUN]

I agree 100% but most people will never take their car to a track and even when they do, they are generally just tracking, not racing. It's about the drive, not the times... unless money is involved (and guess where those races usually take place)

I have never raced my car...but like you said i have tracked it. But i have gotten better and once you do it makes you more focuses on the #s.

Some people might not. It is like convincing a person to go do the 1/4 mile for the first time. They are to scared to look slow and i keep telling them go do it just to do it. Then if you like, go after the #s.


This is a very valid point. The ring is great for r&d but the track is too long and there are far too many variables to make definative car to car comparisons. Some of the drivers have even admitted that if you throw caution to the wind and drive hard into blind spots you can shave significant time but I doubt all the drivers are willing to do that.

I think most of the drivers first get comfortable with the track and then try and drive the car around 8-9 tenths if not lower. But this is just what i think goes on.


Hell no, if you screw the pooch on a corner you're going to die. This alone keeps many drivers from running 100%. Everyone backs off a little bit in spots. If you get a driver who just says fuc it you're going to have a faster time and then the whole world is going to jump on that time saying car A is faster than car B when all its really only the fact car A had a driver who didn't care if he died that day.

100% should only be done by those racing in a professional championchip where they are determined to win for themselves. Not so a car brand can brag about a number.


I guess all of you have a good point...

But I'm gonna point out: Real streetable cars need to be tuned on something LIKE the ring with an open road course where you indeed have to pass others and run in uncontrolled weather conditions. Life is random. Of course most of the more interesting race events are held regardless of weather, and many of them involve a pretty fair bit of passing and traffic.

What a bad comparison between cars and their racing (or streeting) capabilities is when you take a car and close the ring off on a perfect near windless bright sunny day at around 70 degrees. There's nothing at all that mars the perfectness of that run. However it also doesn't represent anything about the car in conditions anyone who cares about the comparison would be able to replicate.

One thing allot of people don't know. The Nurburgring is considered a public toll road. The reason it can exist is cause of the people paying to drive on it. (remember that no world championchip events are held on the north loop so money obviously doesn't come from there. With that said. You can't pass on certain parts of the track. I'm pretty sure i read somewhere you can't pass on the right unless an approved true racing event is being held at the track.
I wanna re check this to be 100% but im sure i read it. If you watch a vid around the ring on a public "toll day", the slower cars stick to the right and anyone faster must wait for a chance to pass on the left for safety. Therefore a car on a hot lap might be slowed because of this.

Found it...please read everyone--- wiki writes.

The Nordschleife has remained a one-way, public toll-road for nearly 80 years except when it is closed off for testing purposes, training lessons or racing events. Since its opening in 1927, the track has been used by the public for the so-called "Touristenfahrten", i.e. to anyone with a road legal car or motorcycle, as well as tour buses, motor homes or cars with trailers. It is opened mainly on Sundays, but also on many Saturdays and weekday evenings. During the winter months, depending on weather conditions and maintenance work, the track may be closed for weeks.

During Touristenfahrten sessions, German road law (StVO) applies despite a common misconception assuming it is derestricted like in races. There is no general speed limit, however speed limits exist in certain areas in order to reduce noise and risks. As on public roads, passing on the right is prohibited, and the police take an extremely dim view of poor driving as they prosecute offenders with the aid of helicopters.

The cost for driving a single lap of the Nordschleife is €21 for each car or motorcycle. Multi-lap tickets can be purchased for a lower per-lap price, such as 4 laps at a cost of €70 (€17.50 per lap). Additional multi-lap prices are 8 laps for €135, 15 laps for €235, or 25 laps for €370. An annual ticket with unlimited laps, valid from January to December, can be purchased for €995. All prices are current for the 2008 calendar year, and include VAT.

[man]

Bump in lieu of Porsche-GTR fued

[Kaiser]

One thing allot of people don't know. The Nurburgring is considered a public toll road. The reason it can exist is cause of the people paying to drive on it. (remember that no world championchip events are held on the north loop so money obviously doesn't come from there. With that said. You can't pass on certain parts of the track. I'm pretty sure i read somewhere you can't pass on the right unless an approved true racing event is being held at the track.
I wanna re check this to be 100% but im sure i read it. If you watch a vid around the ring on a public "toll day", the slower cars stick to the right and anyone faster must wait for a chance to pass on the left for safety. Therefore a car on a hot lap might be slowed because of this.


I was actually aware of this, and it goes to my point about why R&D and comparisons at the ring ARE valid, under certain circumstances. If there was another place in the world that was similar to it, where a road was by all definitions an open raceway with traffic on it, we could have some more choices in how we compared cars. Americans have had an overwhelming fascination with ovals, and many people don't even know that road/street course racing or the circuits to do it on exist. Because of that we DON'T have access to something like the ring, where Average Joe can take his Corvette and drive on a road that has traffic, has rules, has speed limits and turns, but has the feel and nature of being a difficult-to-drive road course. Things like the Dragon's Tail can be deadly to the inexperienced, and are so heavily policed and patrolled because of this that those who are experienced would be unable to actually use it.

It's understandable that open public roads like the Dragon's Tail are going to really be something difficult to use like the ring. I've been in favor of closing the Tail to through-traffic for a long time and allowing people to really push their cars as much as their comfortable, keeping people separated, monitored and punished for truly unsafe behavior. It won't happen because people would be too worried about the possibility of a 19 year old kid pushing his civic a bit too far and careening off a cliff.