2008 Belgium Grand Prix: FIA strips Hamilton's win! Video still on Youtube

[EJ25RUN]

http://assets.speedtv.com/images/article_assets/888/888593/888593_article_img_large1.jpg

Ferrari’s Felipe Massa has been declared the winner of Sunday’s Belgian Grand Prix after McLaren’ Lewis Hamilton was handed a 25-second time penalty following the race. Hamilton drops to third place as a result, with BMW Sauber’s Nick Heidfeld moving up to second.

Hamilton was penalised after stewards decided he had gained an advantage by cutting the final chicane in his late-race battle with Ferrari’s Kimi Raikkonen. McLaren plan to appeal the decision.

The revised result means that rather than extending his championship lead over Massa, Hamilton now sees it cut, with the Briton heading the Brazilian by just two points, 76 to 74, with five races remaining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCEYjNoBYo0

Speed Tv article (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/breaking-news-massa-handed-spa-win/target=)

Latest: McLaren to appeal penalty. (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-mclaren-to-appeal-hamilton-penalty/)

Felipe Massa has been declared the official winner of the Belgian Grand Prix at Spa-Francorchamps, after stewards penalized Lewis Hamilton.

25 seconds were retrospectively added to the British championship leader's finishing time, meaning his victory at the checkered flag now becomes third place, behind Massa's Ferrari and BMW Sauber's Nick Heidfeld. The amended result also means 23-year-old Hamilton's lead in the drivers' standings is reduced from a potential 8 to just 2 points with five races to go in 2008.

Stewards deemed Hamilton did not
properly allow Kimi Raikkonen to re-pass after overtaking the Ferrari driver by cutting the Bus Stop chicane with three laps to go. Hamilton did let the Finn pass him after the chicane, but he then used the slipstream of the Ferrari to immediately launch a successful overtaking move at the next corner.

Stewards also gave Toyota's Timo Glock a 25-second time penalty for overtaking the Red Bull of Mark Webber under yellow flags, which were waving in the wake of Raikkonen's race-ending crash.

The penalty promoted Webber back into to eighth place.

[Cool Cat Racing]

Watching the video I can understand their appeal. He went off and got ahead but immediately let him back by and then proceeded to make a legit pass. Had he held that of course pass I could see the penalty but he didn't gain a spot or better position in doing so.

[Elbow]

I was upset about Kimi :( EXCITING RACE though for sure.

Good move on FIA's part I think.

[IDCoconut]

Bad move. It's clean cut what happened.

Another show of Ferrari's pull on FIA.

[nsany(atl)]

Sux b/c Kimi would have won the race had Hamilton not made that crazy pass, instead he crashed

[EJ25RUN]

Bad move. It's clean cut what happened.

Another show of Ferrari's pull on FIA.

the appeal has a likely chance as the 25 secs are supposed to be equal to a drive through penalty. A penalty Lewis has 3 laps to complete. But with only 2 lap left in the race...they could argue he didn't have enough time to complete the drive thru.

My opinion. I am not a fanboy of either side and respect Lewis Hamilton greatly as as a driver as he is the best talent in F1. I do feel that in his role he should have given more room for Raikkonen to get ahead as it was clear Raikkonen properly defended into the final turn and it was down to lewis to slow down and just follow behind Kimi instead of just short cutting the turn.

[DinanM3atl]

1. Damn fine driving and move by Heidfeld to switch tires. He dropped off the radar and came back!

2. Kimi I think just doesn't care. Rumors of his retirement because he doesn't want to race forever and I think he is just done. He doesn't really care.

3. The rule of you can't pass after going off or however you word it is flawed. Hamilton and Kimi flew off line, out into the grass and then asphalt and then are right back on the gear box next corner? There are some places at some tracks you could drive straight through a corner and catch up to someone by 'accident'.

*obviously someone agrees with me*

4. I love Spa

[EJ25RUN]

2. Kimi I think just doesn't care. Rumors of his retirement because he doesn't want to race forever and I think he is just done. He doesn't really care.

He and Massa are still the 2009 men for Ferrari as it sits right now.



3. The rule of you can't pass after going off or however you word it is flawed. Hamilton and Kimi flew off line, out into the grass and then asphalt and then are right back on the gear box next corner? There are some places at some tracks you could drive straight through a corner and catch up to someone by 'accident'.

*obviously someone agrees with me*

All of that "extra road" used to be gravel traps but i say better racing has resulted since their introduction. Drivers are more likely to try a passing maneuver than before.

"*obviously someone agrees with me*" huh?



4. I love Spa

Every driver in the world does. :tongue:

[DinanM3atl]

Those that agree with me are the stewards :)

[EJ25RUN]

Those that agree with me are the stewards :)

i want to see this appeal situation dealt with quickly. It is never good for a sport when coming into the final rounds, you don't know how the title fight really lines up.

I do agree with you. If you look at the video again at 16-17 secs. Hamilton has 3 choices.

1. File in behind Raikkonen through the turn.
2. Prolly Hit Raikkonen to try and still make the pass in that turn
3. Go off (like he did) instead of option 1 and virtually allow Raikkonen to get alongside instead of properly getting behind him. And get a penalty.

Simple as that.

[DinanM3atl]

Yah.

Hamilton only just barely let Kimi back by before he was already repassing. In pretty much every situation when you give a postition back, you will never satisfy the stewards if you repass into the following corner. Hamilton still had an advantage by cutting the corner which was being basically right behind Kimi. He wouldn't have been in that position if he went through the chicane as normal. Just because Lewis was along side, Kimi doesn't have to give room, especially there. Kimi can easily say that he just simply had to use that much road. In another given situation where there are walls at the tracks edge, Hamilton would back off. Hamilton didn't back off because he knows he can just use the run-off and try again later. The next corner, however, is too soon.

[BKgen®]

Well needless to say, later on yesterday when I heard the news I was shocked. Granted, I'm not complaining due to the fact that the result bumped Massa up to 1st... But here's the thing -- Going in to that last chicane where KR cut off hamilton on the 2nd to last lap, Hamilton did clearly cut the corner... and whether it gave him an unfair advantage or not, he shouldn't have done it. As soon as he did it, I couldn't help but think that something would inevitably be said about it. He could've backed off and simply followed Kimi through the chicane, then made an attempt to pass him after that. Hamilton has a lot of talent -- don't get me wrong -- but if mclaren fans don't like the fact that he gets penalized for stupid things like this, maybe he shouldn't be making foolish decisions that put him in the position to be penalized.

[StraightSix]

Bollocks.

The penalty handed down by the stewards is clearly favoring Ferrari.

Watch the replays again. Kimi and Hailton were racing very, very hard in the last laps. Going through the chicane side by side is dicey at best, and had Hamilton not gone off, both cars would have crashed. Kimi definitely pushed Hammy wide, but the position was given right back, and no real advantage gained. Hell, McLaren even talked to the stewards immediately after the incident and were told that there was no penalty, but two hours later there is?

Let's suppose that Kimi had allowed Hamilton the room to not short the last turn of the chicane. They were pretty much side by side, and that would have set them up for a drag race down the front straight.

[Elbow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74TZngbIS9I

In case people didn't see it.

[bigdare23]

Watched the video.


Looked like Hamilton was forced into the grass when he made the original pass. Is there a rule on how long he must let the guy lead before re-passing him??!

[EJ25RUN]

Watched the video.


Looked like Hamilton was forced into the grass when he made the original pass. Is there a rule on how long he must let the guy lead before re-passing him??!

The rule states: "You can not gain a competitive advantage".

[StraightSix]

That's the key here. Did Hamilton gain a competitive advantage? If we broaden the definition of competitive advantage to include not crashing, then yes Hamilton gaineda competitive advantage in that he was able to continue to compete.

Hamilton conceded the position, and the team was told there was no penalty. Hamilton then ran Kimi down again before the entry to the next corner. Watching Hamilton's charge of the previous three laps or so, McLaren clearly had the horsepower to run down the Ferrari.

I don't think that Hamilton shorting the chicane gave him an advantage, competitive or otherwise.

[SampaGuy]

That's the key here. Did Hamilton gain a competitive advantage? If we broaden the definition of competitive advantage to include not crashing, then yes Hamilton gaineda competitive advantage in that he was able to continue to compete.



If Hamilton had not cut the chicane, there would be no way he could have made that pass on the next turn. So he did gain competitive advantage.

BTW the article on the german newspaper talks about how this is hamilton's 7th penalty just in 2008

[DinanM3atl]

That's the key here. Did Hamilton gain a competitive advantage? If we broaden the definition of competitive advantage to include not crashing, then yes Hamilton gaineda competitive advantage in that he was able to continue to compete.

Hamilton conceded the position, and the team was told there was no penalty. Hamilton then ran Kimi down again before the entry to the next corner. Watching Hamilton's charge of the previous three laps or so, McLaren clearly had the horsepower to run down the Ferrari.

I don't think that Hamilton shorting the chicane gave him an advantage, competitive or otherwise.

His advantage was he was 2-3 cars back until he dive bombed the corner, Kimi drove his line and this forced LH to make a decision. He chose to drive through the chicane. Then suddenly after that Lewis is on the gear box and passing on the straight. So 2-3 cars back to on a gear box after driving through a chicane...

What is your definition of an advantage?

[DinanM3atl]

Watched the video.


Looked like Hamilton was forced into the grass when he made the original pass. Is there a rule on how long he must let the guy lead before re-passing him??!

Hamilton used that SAME MOVE to pass people in Germany TWICE... The difference there? If you force someone to the outside of the turn in Germany you have to brake or you hit a wall.

Hamilton at Spa crys like a baby when 'kimi pushed me out'.

[EJ25RUN]

Solution to all this.

Bring back the "REAL" Bus-Stop chicane

http://spaf1.narod.ru/view/view_18_busstop1_b.jpg

http://spaf1.narod.ru/view/view_18_busstop1_b.jpg

[IDCoconut]

Lewis did not make up the 2-3 cars by cutting the chicane, he made the 2-3cars behind Kimi because he out-braked Kimi. Lewis was slightly ahead of Kimi on the outside when they entered the Bus Stop.

I do agree with EJ, he had three choices, and I believe he took the route which leads to questioning, unfortunately, but I still do not agree with the ruling. The rule only states he surrenders his position by the end of the lap. He did so and out-braked Kimi once again.

I've always thought drive-thru penalties were for purposely driving through a chicane. This case is truly different because he had to make a choice while racing head to head. If he would have just bluntly cut through Bus Stop on the lap before this incident JUST to decrease the gap between him and Kimi, then that's a legit drive-thru penalty of 25 seconds being 5laps from the end of the race.

It's amazing how much discussions online this incident brought up.

Just to give you an idea, I always root for Kimi and it's unfortunate he couldn't keep control to finish the race. I still stand behind that the ruling was wrong.

[EJ25RUN]

Just to give you an idea, I always root for Kimi and it's unfortunate he couldn't keep control to finish the race. I still stand behind that the ruling was wrong.

This rumor is still in an infancy state but wow if it is real.

this is from GTPLanet



In a sensational turnaround, a flash from La Gazzetta dello Sport quotes defending World Champion Kimi Raikkonen as being prepared to testify on behalf of arch rival Lewis Hamilton at the FIA hearing that will result from Vodafone McLaren Mercedes' protest of the penalty imposed on Hamilton after the Belgian Grand Prix. "I don't care what the stewards said, as far as I was concerned, Hamilton let me by as we passed the pits", said Raikkonen in Geneva today. "I got ahead, I tried to defend the position and the race was on again. My car was for sure very difficult on the prime tyres in the rain and Lewis got by me into the hairpin. That was that."

Raikkonen went on, "For sure, I don't like to lose but I don't like to win through stupid decisions. People say I have lost the love (for F1) but yesterday I showed that second was not what I wanted. There are five races to go and I plan to win them all. I'm not the sort to give up that easily."

Asked if he was prepared to testify to that effect if the McLaren protest goes to the FIA, Raikkonen simply said, "Yes, why not."

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali declined to comment on Raikkonen's statement but technical director Aldo Costa admitted the Scuderia was not pleased. "Our driver has a view but the team believes the stewards and the FIA have all the information they need. We will be talking to our driver during the week," Costa told Gazzetta dello Sport.

[DinanM3atl]

Lewis did not make up the 2-3 cars by cutting the chicane, he made the 2-3cars behind Kimi because he out-braked Kimi. Lewis was slightly ahead of Kimi on the outside when they entered the Bus Stop.

I do agree with EJ, he had three choices, and I believe he took the route which leads to questioning, unfortunately, but I still do not agree with the ruling. The rule only states he surrenders his position by the end of the lap. He did so and out-braked Kimi once again.

I've always thought drive-thru penalties were for purposely driving through a chicane. This case is truly different because he had to make a choice while racing head to head. If he would have just bluntly cut through Bus Stop on the lap before this incident JUST to decrease the gap between him and Kimi, then that's a legit drive-thru penalty of 25 seconds being 5laps from the end of the race.

It's amazing how much discussions online this incident brought up.

Just to give you an idea, I always root for Kimi and it's unfortunate he couldn't keep control to finish the race. I still stand behind that the ruling was wrong.

Yes, he made it up there but couldn't even stay on track because he couldn't actually get in FRONT of Kimi to have the position.

Come on man. Watch the replays. You can't just dive bomb a corner, realize you actually can't get around a person. Drive through the corner and go 'oops'.

[Mike Lowrey]

The rule states: "You can not gain a competitive advantage".

I do not see the "advantage"?

1. Hamilton was beside Kimi going into the turn.
2. Kimi pushed him wide off the track
3. Hamilton cut the chicane
4. Hamilton let Kimi by and was completely behind Kimi (although on his gearbox)
5. Hamilton passed Kimi at the next turn

[EJ25RUN]

I do not see the "advantage"?

1. Hamilton was beside Kimi going into the turn.
2. Kimi pushed him wide off the track
3. Hamilton cut the chicane
4. Hamilton let Kimi by and was completely behind Kimi (although on his gearbox)
5. Hamilton passed Kimi at the next turn

I think the stewards see it as if he Hamilton set Kimi up into a passing maneuver into the next corner when he should have atleast let Kimi take another turn in the lead. That way there won't be an argument of giving up the lead as you have to go single file through La Source.

[Mike Lowrey]

I think the stewards see it as if he set Kimi up a passing maneuver into the next corner when he should have atleast let Kimi take another turn in the lead, that way there won't be an argument of giving up the lead as you have to go single file through La Source.

Understood. But why should he let someone go too far ahead, when they were so close together before one got pushed wide? I think the stewards missed this call. Kimi was the slower car and was overdriving his car to keep up, in my opinion (hence the crash). He pushed Hamilton wide in despiration.

Look at the video again. Look how fast he was gaining before his off!

[StraightSix]

His advantage was he was 2-3 cars back until he dive bombed the corner,

What is your definition of an advantage?

Watch the video again, and again, and again, if need be. Hamilton was *not* 2-3 cars back approaching the chicane. He was on Kimi's gearbox. Hamilton tried to outbrake Kimi and go around the outside so that he could be on the better line for the last turn of the chicane onto the front straight.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c186/StraytSix/KimiHamBelgium2008.jpg

^^Does anyone see 2-3 cars worth of space here?:thinking:


If Hamilton really had been 2-3 cars behind on the approach to the chicane and had cut the chicane, or actually dive bombed the corner, and then been on Kimi's gearbox, then the penalty would be legitimate.

This whole situation undrescores some things that are wrong with the FIA. The FIA is grossly affecting the outcome of a Grand Prix, and even the championship in a very suspect manner. The ruling gives a lot of velocity to the arguement that the FIA is in bed with Ferrari. Suppose it had been Heidfeld, or Bourdais dicing with Hamilton, would Hamilton have still been penalized? Or, better, what if it had been Kubica dicing with Kimi?

[SampaGuy]

The way I see it, Hamilton should have tapped the brakes and properly went around the chicane right on Raikonnen's tail, and tried to pass him again later since he knew he was faster. If this was Monaco and there was a big wall there then thats what would've happened. Raikonnen did not "cut him off" as someone posted, he was on the racing line.

[Mike Lowrey]

The way I see it, Hamilton should have tapped the brakes and properly went around the chicane right on Raikonnen's tail, and tried to pass him again later since he knew he was faster. If this was Monaco and there was a big wall there then thats what would've happened. Raikonnen did not "cut him off" as someone posted, he was on the racing line.


You are joking right?! Do you know what a racing line is?!

Here are a few pics. Watch the video again. You will notice just after my pic #2, he corrects back to the right slightly before turning into the corner. He was not setupfor the corner properly beause he pushed in too deep to keep Hamilton from making the pass, thus pushing Hamilton wide off the track.

[SampaGuy]

I guess he did a little bit but it was just a tiny bit. There was no way they could go side by side on a corner that tight though, so im sure it was not a surprise.

I found another vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNN5W_B-Zk

[EJ25RUN]

I guess he did a little bit but it was just a tiny bit. There was no way they could go side by side on a corner that tight though, so im sure it was not a surprise.

I found another vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWNN5W_B-Zk

I like how you can see HAamilton checking his mirrors the whole way down the straight.

Anyways. Watching the vid again and again.

I feel that yes, Kimi went wide on the exit of Bus Stop. But this was not just to bloke Hamilton but it was also in his defense of the road, he didn't hit the apex properly on the exit and went wide. By all accounts this is just another racing incident to this point. On the side of Hamilton.......He wanted to pass on the outside of Bus Stop which is a big ask and he ended up on the bad side of a defending wide line of Kimi. Instead of following Kimi through the corner: WHICH HE COULD HAVE DONE AT 3:31, he cut the chicane and effectively put himself in good shape to pass Kimi into La Source. If Hamilton would have followed Kimi through the entire corner without cutting it, he would have been able to draft Kimi to La Source and made a pass there with no penalty of any kind. He was close enough to do so.

This was Hamilton's fault.

[BKgen®]

if mclaren fans don't like the fact that he gets penalized for stupid things like this, maybe he shouldn't be making foolish decisions that put him in the position to be penalized.


I like how you can see HAamilton checking his mirrors the whole way down the straight.

Anyways. Watching the vid again and again.

I feel that yes, Kimi went wide on the exit of Bus Stop. But this was not just to bloke Hamilton but it was also in his defense of the road, he didn't hit the apex properly on the exit and went wide. By all accounts this is just another racing incident to this point. On the side of Hamilton.......He wanted to pass on the outside of Bus Stop which is a big ask and he ended up on the bad side of a defending wide line of Kimi. Instead of following Kimi through the corner: WHICH HE COULD HAVE DONE AT 3:31, he cut the chicane and effectively put himself in good shape to pass Kimi into La Source. If Hamilton would have followed Kimi through the entire corner without cutting it, he would have been able to draft Kimi to La Source and made a pass there with no penalty of any kind. He was close enough to do so.

This was Hamilton's fault.



bingo. :rolleyes:

If Hamilton would've just followed Kimi through the chicane and been patient, he probably would've ended up passing him anyway -- and we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

[StraightSix]

bingo. :rolleyes:

If Hamilton would've just followed Kimi through the chicane and been patient, he probably would've ended up passing him anyway -- and we wouldn't be having this conversation right now.

Hamilton was racing Kimi for the lead; it was both drivers' faults. Hamilton for wanting to win, and Kimi for trying to defend.

Better yet, if the race stewards, who made an on the spot ruling, kept their word, we wouldn't have this controversy. And *that's* really the bottom line. Race control was consulted twice and McLaren were told there was no penalty.

Yet, somehow, two hours after the finish of the race, there is? Just how f@ck does that happen?

[EJ25RUN]

let's not let this thread get out of hand as the election thread. I think we all know where we sit on this topic and we'll just have to see what happens with the appeal. My only real hope for the future is that this gets settled as quickly as possible. I doubt it will be done by Italy but at least by Singapore.

to Straightsix:i cant find a video on youtube but i clearly remember that right after the post race interviews were over, It was written on the bottom "Incident between car 1 and car 22 under investigation"

[EJ25RUN]

F1 will make its decision on this the Monday before the Singapore GP.

[Elbow]

Any verification if that statement by Kimi was true?

[StraightSix]

Even if Kimi's statement were true, do you really think Ferrari is going to allow it to be verified? Or, better, actually let Kimi testify in defense of McLaren's appeal? Ferrari clearly stands to gain quite a bit from the decision on the appeal, so I'm very certain that they will be sure to keep both drivers quiet about it.

EJ25RUN: I have the race TiVoed, but deleted it the other day...so I might still have it.

[EJ25RUN]

F1 will make its decision on this the Monday before the Singapore GP.

Sorry guys, i just read what i wrote and i didn't write it correctly.

It should say.....

"F1 will make its decision on xxxx the Monday before the Singapore GP"

It will be on Sept. 22

[EJ25RUN]

McLaren appeal over Hamilton penalty thrown out of FIA court

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2008/09/82944996_450op.jpg

Autoblog

Lewis Hamilton does not have good luck in France. Of all the races he's won in these past two seasons, he's yet to take the checkered flag at the French Grand Prix, has had his license revoked by the French gendarmes, and has now had his appeal thrown out of court in Paris.

Following the Belgian Grand Prix earlier this month, Hamilton was penalized by the race stewards with a 25-second penalty (in lieu of a pit-lane drive-through penalty) that bumped him down from first place to third, and allowed Ferrari's Felipe Massa to close the lead down to one single point. The penalty was given to Hamilton for having cut through a chicane on the Spa-Francorchamps track called the "bus stop", which race officials ruled gave him an illegal advantage. Hamilton's team McLaren decided to appeal the penalty in the FIA's court in Paris, however the court threw out the case as inadmissible, quoting sporting regulations that stipulate that drive-through penalties cannot be appealed. McLaren presented precedent from a repealed penalty handed to Toro Rosso in Japan last year, however the court of appeal was adamant in their refusal to hear the case.

http://fialive.fiacommunications.com/en-GB/the-fia/court_appeal/judgments/Documents/ICA-23-09-08-McL-en.pdf

[StraightSix]

The more I hear about how the FIA conducts business the more I'm convinced they need to get off their collective knees and wipe the Ferrari from their mouths.

[BKgen®]

however the court threw out the case as inadmissible, quoting sporting regulations that stipulate that drive-through penalties cannot be appealed.


Ok, i'm not a Hamilton fan -- not one bit....

But that's absolute horse sh*t. If the court had a ruling all along that drive-through penalties can't be appealed, why wait all this time to reveal it? Sounds fishy. oh well, on to Singapore...