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4dmin
09-03-2008, 09:03 AM
everyone keeps talking sh!t about how voted what well here are some facts i tried to compile what i thought were hot topics - enjoy, discuss, etc...


07/05 - alternative energy (obama = yes mccain = no)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/109/senate/1/votes/213/


03/06 - Patriot Act (obama = yes mccain = yes)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/109/senate/2/votes/29/


05/06 - Border Security (obama = yes mccain = yes)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/109/senate/2/votes/157/


06/06 - Amendment limited married to man and woman (obama = no mccain = no)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/109/senate/2/votes/163/


06/06 - Troop withdrawl w/ deadline (obama = no mccain = no)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/109/senate/2/votes/181/


06/06 - Troop withdrawl w/o deadline (obama = yes mccain = no)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/109/senate/2/votes/182/


07/06 - Steem Cell research (obama = yes mccain = yes)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/109/senate/2/votes/206/


01/07 - ethics reform bill (obama = yes mccain = yes)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/senate/1/votes/19/


02/07 - minimum wage increase (obama = yes mccain = yes)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/senate/1/votes/42/


03/07 - troop redeployment (obama = yes mccain = didn't vote)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/senate/1/votes/75/


05/07 - 120$ billion for war (obama = no mccain = yes)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/senate/1/votes/181/


06/07 - Crackdown border security/hiring illegals (obama = yes mccain = didn't vote)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/senate/1/votes/204/


08/07 - homeland security 9/11 recommendations (obama = didn't vote mccain didn't vote)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/senate/1/votes/284/


08/07 - childrens healthcare program (obama = yes mccain = no)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/senate/1/votes/307/


08/07 - expanded power eavesdrop w/o court order (obama = no mccain = didn't vote)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/110/senate/1/votes/309/

Maniacc
09-03-2008, 09:05 AM
06/07 - Crackdown border security/hiring illegals (obama = yes mccain = didn't vote)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/...te/1/votes/204/

That would be enough for me to vote for him! :p lol

4dmin
09-03-2008, 09:08 AM
06/07 - Crackdown border security/hiring illegals (obama = yes mccain = didn't vote)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/...te/1/votes/204/

That would be enough for me to vote for him! :p lol

that and the energy bill:

07/05 - alternative energy (obama = yes mccain = no)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/...te/1/votes/213/ (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/109/senate/1/votes/213/)

^ ya if i recall aren't these two key things Maverick is supposed to be for :thinking:

twinj
09-03-2008, 09:08 AM
06/07 - Crackdown border security/hiring illegals (obama = yes mccain = didn't vote)

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/...te/1/votes/204/ (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/...te/1/votes/204/)

That would be enough for me to vote for him! :p lol
^lol.

Thanks Admin

Vteckidd
09-03-2008, 09:13 AM
ALl im going to say is you cant go by the headlines, you need to read what each bill was about THEN decide if the way they voted agrees with you or not.

The Energy Bill

The Bush administration said this bill's $14.5 billion in tax breaks and incentives would spur oil and gas companies to find innovative ways to reduce the nation's dependence on foreign oil, conserve resources and reduce pollution. Supporters also said the bill would lead to the creation of more oil refineries, new oil drilling projects and new nuclear power plants -- arguing that all were necessary to meet the nation's energy needs and reduce importation of foreign oil.

Opponents said the measure amounted to a give-away to large energy companies already flush with cash due to rising oil and gas prices and that it would do little to solve the nation's energy-related problems. Opponents further argued that the bill could lead to drilling in coastal and other sensitive areas and damage the environment.

The bill called for increase use of alternative fuels such as ethanol and offered incentives for development of alternative energy sources (such as wind and solar), tax breaks for hybrid cars, construction of more energy efficient buildings. The bill did not include the controversial proposal to open Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) for oil drilling, but the proposal was added to a later bill, which was defeated.

The final version of the energy bill passed both the House and Senate in late July 2005 and was signed into law by the president on August 8, 2005.

Do we know if Mccain voted for it when it DID pass?

ALot of times these people will vote AGAINST legislature and send it back to get redone, bills can go through 100 different versions before they get approved

Vteckidd
09-03-2008, 09:15 AM
06/07 - Crackdown border security/hiring illegals (obama = yes mccain = didn't vote)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/...te/1/votes/204/

That would be enough for me to vote for him! :p lol
The bill was defeated by opposition from conservative and liberal causes alike. From the Democratic side, labor unions protested the guest-worker program as a threat to American jobs. For conservatives of both parties, the path-to-citizenship provision was interpreted as "amnesty" for lawbreakers.

President Bush threw his full support behind this bill, even making a rare visit to Capitol Hill in hopes of bolstering support after it appeared doomed.

Despite his attempts, Bush found his major domestic initiative blocked by most members of his own party as well as a few Democrats.

Maniacc
09-03-2008, 09:18 AM
The bill was defeated by opposition from conservative and liberal causes alike. From the Democratic side, labor unions protested the guest-worker program as a threat to American jobs. For conservatives of both parties, the path-to-citizenship provision was interpreted as "amnesty" for lawbreakers.

President Bush threw his full support behind this bill, even making a rare visit to Capitol Hill in hopes of bolstering support after it appeared doomed.

Despite his attempts, Bush found his major domestic initiative blocked by most members of his own party as well as a few Democrats.
Ah, that sucks. I heard that both McCain and Obama will past an amnesty if either are elected. Any confirmation on this?

Ran
09-03-2008, 09:23 AM
03/06 - Patriot Act (obama = yes mccain = yes)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/109/senate/2/votes/29Weren't you guys harping on something about how Obama was all for gun control but not for the Patriot Act? :thinking:


I heard that both McCain and Obama will past an amnesty if either are elected.By "amnesty" they mean free deportation, right?

4dmin
09-03-2008, 09:30 AM
ALl im going to say is you cant go by the headlines, you need to read what each bill was about THEN decide if the way they voted agrees with you or not.

The Energy Bill

The Bush administration said this bill's $14.5 billion in tax breaks and incentives would spur oil and gas companies to find innovative ways to reduce the nation's dependence on foreign oil, conserve resources and reduce pollution. Supporters also said the bill would lead to the creation of more oil refineries, new oil drilling projects and new nuclear power plants -- arguing that all were necessary to meet the nation's energy needs and reduce importation of foreign oil.

Opponents said the measure amounted to a give-away to large energy companies already flush with cash due to rising oil and gas prices and that it would do little to solve the nation's energy-related problems. Opponents further argued that the bill could lead to drilling in coastal and other sensitive areas and damage the environment.

The bill called for increase use of alternative fuels such as ethanol and offered incentives for development of alternative energy sources (such as wind and solar), tax breaks for hybrid cars, construction of more energy efficient buildings. The bill did not include the controversial proposal to open Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) for oil drilling, but the proposal was added to a later bill, which was defeated.

The final version of the energy bill passed both the House and Senate in late July 2005 and was signed into law by the president on August 8, 2005.

Do we know if Mccain voted for it when it DID pass?

ALot of times these people will vote AGAINST legislature and send it back to get redone, bills can go through 100 different versions before they get approved

From what I saw NO he didn't.

Maniacc
09-03-2008, 09:30 AM
By "amnesty" they mean free deportation, right?
Haha, no way. That would hurt many business'es around the 'heavy populated' latino communities and states.

Vteckidd
09-03-2008, 09:31 AM
i think the real hard point is that most of these bills are generalized. There is ALOT more to these bills than what is on that website.

ALOT more provisions, alot more points, consequences etc.

Thats not making excuses or anything, but just pointing out that you cant just go by the headline of the bill and then look at the voting record. If you do that, it means absolutely NOTHING.

Obama has gotten some flack for his voting record on some issues but if you REALLY read the bill, i can see why he voted against it, same with mccain.

As for illegals, they are here to stay. Expect another form of the Guest Worker bill to be proposed once someone gets in office

Ran
09-03-2008, 09:31 AM
That would hurt many business'es around the 'heavy populated' latino community.So?

Red_Phoenix
09-03-2008, 09:32 AM
There better be amnesty this next term. Thats all I have to say.

Maniacc
09-03-2008, 09:34 AM
So?
So - some of my relatives will no longer be here. Haha, which wouldn't hurt me but you know!

4dmin
09-03-2008, 09:34 AM
i think the real hard point is that most of these bills are generalized. There is ALOT more to these bills than what is on that website.

ALOT more provisions, alot more points, consequences etc.

Thats not making excuses or anything, but just pointing out that you cant just go by the headline of the bill and then look at the voting record. If you do that, it means absolutely NOTHING.

Obama has gotten some flack for his voting record on some issues but if you REALLY read the bill, i can see why he voted against it, same with mccain.

As for illegals, they are here to stay. Expect another form of the Guest Worker bill to be proposed once someone gets in office

you do know by stating this you now have no stance in this discussion :lmfao:

there is pork in all bills - if you filter through the voting results and who supports them you can get a good idea on party lines, influence, etc

Vteckidd
09-03-2008, 09:34 AM
From what I saw NO he didn't.
Now there is something wrong about the Energy bill because

it says :
Opponents said the measure amounted to a give-away to large energy companies already flush with cash due to rising oil and gas prices and that it would do little to solve the nation's energy-related problems. Opponents further argued that the bill could lead to drilling in coastal and other sensitive areas and damage the environment.

Obama is on record as voting AGAINST this bill because of the offshore drilling, etc.

Mccain is on record as voting for it, so this must be some weird version like i said before.

Why would Obama vote FOR a bill that had offshore drilling and drilling in endagered lands? Why would he vote to give Oil Companies MORE MONEY.

That is EXACTLY WHAT HE IS AGAINST

Maniacc
09-03-2008, 09:35 AM
There better be amnesty this next term. Thats all I have to say.
I agree. That'll save the Country a lot of money and sweat.

Vteckidd
09-03-2008, 09:36 AM
you do know by stating this you now have no stance in this discussion :lmfao:

there is pork in all bills - if you filter through the voting results and who supports them you can get a good idea on party lines, influence, etc
Im trying to stay neutral so i dont get called and idiot or a racist :)

Ran
09-03-2008, 09:37 AM
There better be amnesty this next term. Thats all I have to say.Yeah, fixing the problem is too costly so let's just absorb it into the system. :rolleyes:

4dmin
09-03-2008, 09:37 AM
Now there is something wrong about the Energy bill because

it says :
Opponents said the measure amounted to a give-away to large energy companies already flush with cash due to rising oil and gas prices and that it would do little to solve the nation's energy-related problems. Opponents further argued that the bill could lead to drilling in coastal and other sensitive areas and damage the environment.

Obama is on record as voting AGAINST this bill because of the offshore drilling, etc.

Mccain is on record as voting for it, so this must be some weird version like i said before.

Why would Obama vote FOR a bill that had offshore drilling and drilling in endagered lands? Why would he vote to give Oil Companies MORE MONEY.

That is EXACTLY WHAT HE IS AGAINST

NOPE
The bill did not include the controversial proposal to open Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) for oil drilling, but the proposal was added to a later bill, which was defeated. - Obama voted Yes to this bill and McCain voted No

cite where McCain voted YES for this bill?

Maniacc
09-03-2008, 09:41 AM
Yeah, fixing the problem is too costly so let's just absorb it into the system. :rolleyes:
Don't really see a problem if everyone can coexist and work together, with no illegal issues getting in the way.

Ran
09-03-2008, 09:46 AM
Don't really see a problem if everyone can coexist and work together, with no illegal issues getting in the way.Sure, that works great in Candyland. If things were that easy around the world, I probably wouldn't be here. Things don't work that way though.

Total_Blender
09-03-2008, 09:48 AM
Obama voted for the Patriot Act but at least he voted against the roving wiretaps. McCain voted for both.

Red_Phoenix
09-03-2008, 09:49 AM
Yeah, fixing the problem is too costly so let's just absorb it into the system. :rolleyes:

Everyone think that illegals are ppl who crossed over a desert and took over jobs. There is more to it then that. There are TONS of people who were brought over as kids (no choice when your 5) illegally grow up here liek an american and get the boot when they turn 18. Others whose parents had working visas which the government just renews for the working parent while the kids have visas to just stay (not work) in the US (my situation) and when you turn 21 you get a kind letter from the Gov that says you have 3 weeks to GTFO. So you either have to uproot yourself and go back to that place on your birth certificate. Or take your chances living the illegal life. I took my chances and lived that way for 3 years. Its not easy. I have a student visa not and went back to school. Still not allowed to work legally. I have been here since 1993. Anyone want to tell me I'm not qualified to stay? Learned your language, laws, and "culture" I am not saying border patrol shoudl be handing out greencards in the desert. I'm just saying there is something that needs to be done because your country is kicking out ppl they paid their education for through publix school and then turning around and letting ppl from 3rd world countries in on green card lotteries. There is more to illegals then what you ppl think.

Maniacc
09-03-2008, 09:50 AM
Sure, that works great in Candyland. If things were that easy around the world, I probably wouldn't be here. Things don't work that way though.
I'm quite aware that things don't easily and smoothly fall into place. The amnesty that took place around the mid - late '80's early '90's really did help out though. And I honestly don't see any reason why we shouldn't have another one, come 2009.

Ran
09-03-2008, 10:02 AM
There are TONS of people who were brought over as kids (no choice when your 5) illegally grow up here liek an american and get the boot when they turn 18.Tough luck. They can blame their illegal parents and take them back too.


Others whose parents had working visas which the government just renews for the working parent while the kids have visas to just stay (not work) in the US (my situation) and when you turn 21 you get a kind letter from the Gov that says you have 3 weeks to GTFO.Then the kid (now adult) should apply for citizenship and start the process. If not, tough luck. If I go to S.Korea on a work Visa, that doesn't automatically grant my kids citizenship. When they become adults, they'll be responsible for their process as well.


I took my chances and lived that way for 3 years. Its not easy. I have a student visa not and went back to school. Still not allowed to work legally. I have been here since 1993. Anyone want to tell me I'm not qualified to stay?Are you a legal citizen? Do you have a work visa? If no, then you need to GTFO. If yes, then enjoy your stay.


I am not saying border patrol shoudl be handing out greencards in the desert. I'm just saying there is something that needs to be done because your country is kicking out ppl they paid their education for through publix school and then turning around and letting ppl from 3rd world countries in on green card lotteries. There is more to illegals then what you ppl think.I don't agree with the green card lottery either, but that's one legal way they're doing it. Does it need to be changed? Yes, but that doesn't change how we need to deal with illegals that are here in the meantime.

Red_Phoenix
09-03-2008, 10:13 AM
Tough luck. They can blame their illegal parents and take them back too..
This is a very lame and closed minded opinion and does not help or change anything


Then the kid (now adult) should apply for citizenship and start the process. If not, tough luck. If I go to S.Korea on a work Visa, that doesn't automatically grant my kids citizenship. When they become adults, they'll be responsible for their process as well...

There is no such thing as a "citizen process" from an illegal status. Please inform yourself before giving info because this is not correct. Nice to see that you woudl drag your kids somewhere and riase then in a place where you coudl give them a better life just so that when they are grown you tell them "well, I'm here. you can't stay. You've never been to your "homeland" but figure out on your own."


Are you a legal citizen? Do you have a work visa? No? Then yes, you need to GTFO. If yes, then enjoy your stay....

I am currently legal here. I consider the US home. It where I spent most of my life.

I don't agree with the green card lottery either, but that's one legal way they're doing it. Does it need to be changed? Yes, but that doesn't change how we need to deal with illegals that are here in the meantime...

Woudl you like to explain to me how your roots immigrated here. Cuz I KNOW your roots don't go back to the English settlers that formed this country.


For someone who obviously had to have immigrated here somewhere in your family history. You are very close minded. You had to choice but to grow up here. You think you can hack it if you got thrown back to your roots??

Kaiser
09-03-2008, 10:15 AM
Everyone think that illegals are ppl who crossed over a desert and took over jobs. There is more to it then that. There are TONS of people who were brought over as kids (no choice when your 5) illegally grow up here liek an american and get the boot when they turn 18. Others whose parents had working visas which the government just renews for the working parent while the kids have visas to just stay (not work) in the US (my situation) and when you turn 21 you get a kind letter from the Gov that says you have 3 weeks to GTFO. So you either have to uproot yourself and go back to that place on your birth certificate. Or take your chances living the illegal life. I took my chances and lived that way for 3 years. Its not easy. I have a student visa not and went back to school. Still not allowed to work legally. I have been here since 1993. Anyone want to tell me I'm not qualified to stay? Learned your language, laws, and "culture" I am not saying border patrol shoudl be handing out greencards in the desert. I'm just saying there is something that needs to be done because your country is kicking out ppl they paid their education for through publix school and then turning around and letting ppl from 3rd world countries in on green card lotteries. There is more to illegals then what you ppl think.

The federal government has nothing (and should have nothing) to do with what amounts to a local problem of resident aliens owning property and paying property tax on it that is used for public education. In all seriousness, the way provisions are set up, there is no guarantee of a public education for resident aliens who are not citizens. Conversely there is no truancy requirement laws in those jurisdictions whose laws do not guarantee a public education for resident aliens for those same people. In other words, nowhere FORCES you to go to school if you're not a citizen that doesn't GUARANTEE you a chance to go to school if you're not a citizen. I don't want to hear about resident aliens tax situation though, because it's alot more complicated than people want to make it out to be. It's also not the problem with the current tax system.

The problem is that most of the migrant worker illegal aliens have NOT learned our language, do NOT care for our culture and do NOT want to become a coexistent part of society. They are here as symbiotes who feed off of our system, providing cheap labor in return for untaxed dollars that can be funneled into the central/south american country of their origin. All the while they claim to have no income and recieve as many government handouts as they can manage to qualify for. The number of "unemployed" mexican-american "work visa" holders in COBB COUNTY alone who are recieving unemployment and have been busted for working out of the parking lot of a home depot in this year is proof of that. Nobody ever said that because the migrant worker illegal aliens refused to speak english that they were stupid because it was true. They're racists. The hispanic migrant worker has figured out that the american government will cater to their needs if they cry for help all the while they hold a steady $6-$7 an hour job (60-70 Pesos an hour at current rates) that they send straight back to Mexico. These Migrant workers aren't working for any big business. They aren't working for a corporation who has to worry about filing paperwork on them. They're working for contractors who use them as contracted day laborers. It's on the worker to claim their income to the IRS, and it becomes almost on the honor system that these workers claim anything, since the only "contract" that is used is a verbal agreement and cash-in-hand at the end of the day. Those are the people who are creating problems for the mandatory-admission emergency medical care community who are doing births for now-american-citizen anchors but are never recieving any kind of compensation because the parents disappear into the breeze without any kind of Social Security number to even track.

People in YOUR situation need a VIABLE WAY TO BECOME AMERICAN CITIZENS. The Migrant Workers in this country DO NOT EVER WANT TO BE AMERICAN. They want to make money here, send it home so they have a good life, save all that money, and eventually go home to live it big. They are living their version of the American dream, and with the CURRENT system they create huge problems.

All of this goes away if you do away with the Income Tax, Social Security, and all the government oversight that comes with massive hand-out systems funded by tracked income systems. Switching to a different form of income collection based on something easier to track and enforce (Such as, for example, a retail sales tax collected by the retail point of sale system, or a tax on a government controlled neccessary good, like the Stamp Tax the british implemented here that helped to start the revolution) means that the Migrant Workers who are behaving the exact same way they are now, suddenly become legal workers who nobody has any problem with. Every american can do what they're doing and not worry about being arrested or facing massive fines from the IRS for tax evasion. The problem isn't the Migrant workers who have figured out how to game the system. The problem is the system that allows people to game it at all. All the supports of Obama want to see government in charge of healthcare, something that is and should always be the responsibility of those who want to stay healthy, and yet they have NO ANSWERS as to how to make the government ACTUALLY DO WHAT IS THE GOVERNMENT'S JOB. That is to enforce the laws that are on the books.

We don't LIVE in a Democracy. We live in a Representative Republic based on the RULE OF LAW. If 51% of the people in a democracy wanted to see every black person put back in slavery, then that becomes what the country's laws are. Instead America is not based on mob-rule, something the Founding Fathers figured out was exactly as dangerous as the people who fought the revolution for them.


Edit: A note about the wages, for some perspective. A 10 hour day in America at $6 an hour amounts to over 600 Pesos. The average daily wage in Mexico, according to their own government, is around 200 Pesos. This means that in a six day week, a migrant worker can work a whole month's average wage, and still have Sunday to be a good Catholic. In 10 years of being in America at the pitiful price of $6 an hour, a Migrant Worker could make a whole LIFETIME'S pay in Mexico. When you talk about other central-american countries like Nicaragua or Panama, the situation looks even better for Migrant Workers. These people aren't stupid, they are economic geniuses. I wish there were Jobs in England right now, I'd be hopping a merchant marine boat to try and earn some dough now. Of course another way to end the Migrant Worker phenomenon is to crush our currency into smithereens the same way the Japanese did, and turn our economy into an export economy. Then we'd have a rock-solid economic powerhouse that took a blow bigger than what caused the great depression in America and still stand. Not that long ago their stock market crashed far worse than ours ever did, and yet their economy essentially "Couldn't get any worse" and they bounced right back up from it to where they are now.

ShooterMcGavin
09-03-2008, 10:16 AM
ppl can obviously draw their own conclusions but i'm sure some will draw the wrong conclusions based on the items mccain voted no or didn't vote on. personally, below items stood out to me:

05/07 - 120$ billion for war (obama = no mccain = yes)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/...te/1/votes/181/
if we know we're going to be there to finish out the war, why would you not fund it? how will our troops fight if they aren't funded?

08/07 - childrens healthcare program (obama = yes mccain = no)
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/...te/1/votes/307/
i'm not sure how many ppl actually know about this program, that unfairly tried to tax cigars to pay for this program but more importantly, was meant as a healthcare program for ADULTS as well, but hidden under the guise of a "childrens" program

Maniacc
09-03-2008, 10:18 AM
Woudl you like to explain to me how your roots immigrated here. Cuz I KNOW your roots don't go back to the English settlers that formed this country.

For someone who obviously had to have immigrated here somewhere in your family history. You are very close minded. You had to choice but to grow up here. You think you can hack it if you got thrown back to your roots??
I'm hispanic and can relate to a lot of what you're saying. But Ran did make 'some' good points. I for one, think that all the current illegals should get deported - sounds mean, but that's how it should be. If they contribute to this nation then they have no reason to stay. Atleast, that's how I see it.

Ran
09-03-2008, 10:19 AM
Woudl you like to explain to me how your roots immigrated here. Cuz I KNOW your roots don't go back to the English settlers that formed this country.I'll gladly let you know that my father's family migrated over here LEGALLY prior to the Civil War. The system back then was lot easier, but they abided by it none-the-less. My mother was brought over by my father in the late 70's, went through the process, and is now a LEGAL citizen.


For someone who obviously had to have immigrated here somewhere in your family history. You are very close minded. You had to choice but to grow up here. You think you can hack it if you got thrown back to your roots??You're obviously losing your argument because you, as an illegal I assume, have no real leg to stand on. I'm not close minded, but I'm well aware that there is a system that needs to be followed. Does it always work? No, but it's the only one we got and anyone who fails to abide by it deserves what they get.

Vteckidd
09-03-2008, 10:20 AM
The problem with Illegals is we are doing NOTHING to stop it. They are here ILLEGALLY, they are here without permission and they are breaking INTERNATIONAL LAWs.

If you jumped the border and went to mexico and they caught you, you think they would just say "hey, its cool, hang out for awhile". HELL NO they would throw your ass in mexican jail and aint nobody wanna go to jail in mexico /martin lawrence

Im not arguing that we as a society havent become dependant on their cheap labor, but IMO thats just as wrong in human rights as china.

I think we should make them ALL GUEST WORKERS, TAX THEM, REGISTER THEM, and kick all the Current Illegal felons out of the country and give our swelling jails a rest.

I think we should cap their familes at 4 kids too, but thats just me :)

I think we should require more of them to pass backround checks to get hired and i think we should go after the big and small businesses that are exploiting the illegal workers and make them pay HEFTY FINES.

There is a way to coexist, but that means they have to assimilate into OUR SOCIETY, not the other way around. They need to pay taxes, and be registered in some form or fashion.

We need to really LOCK the borders down and keep any more from coming in

Ran
09-03-2008, 10:21 AM
The problem with Illegals is we are doing NOTHING to stop it. They are here ILLEGALLY, they are here without permission and they are breaking INTERNATIONAL LAWs.

If you jumped the border and went to mexico and they caught you, you think they would just say "hey, its cool, hang out for awhile". HELL NO they would throw your ass in mexican jail and aint nobody wanna go to jail in mexico /martin lawrence

Im not arguing that we as a society havent become dependant on their cheap labor, but IMO thats just as wrong in human rights as china.

I think we should make them ALL GUEST WORKERS, TAX THEM, REGISTER THEM, and kick all the Current Illegal felons out of the country and give our swelling jails a rest.

I think we should cap their familes at 4 kids too, but thats just me :)

I think we should require more of them to pass backround checks to get hired and i think we should go after the big and small businesses that are exploiting the illegal workers and make them pay HEFTY FINES.

There is a way to coexist, but that means they have to assimilate into OUR SOCIETY, not the other way around. They need to pay taxes, and be registered in some form or fashion.

We need to really LOCK the borders down and keep any more from coming inI <3 you Mike.

ShooterMcGavin
09-03-2008, 10:21 AM
illegals ftl
/discussion

Vteckidd
09-03-2008, 10:24 AM
The federal government has nothing (and should have nothing) to do with what amounts to a local problem of resident aliens owning property and paying property tax on it that is used for public education. In all seriousness, the way provisions are set up, there is no guarantee of a public education for resident aliens who are not citizens. Conversely there is no truancy requirement laws in those jurisdictions whose laws do not guarantee a public education for resident aliens for those same people. In other words, nowhere FORCES you to go to school if you're not a citizen that doesn't GUARANTEE you a chance to go to school if you're not a citizen. I don't want to hear about resident aliens tax situation though, because it's alot more complicated than people want to make it out to be. It's also not the problem with the current tax system.

The problem is that most of the migrant worker illegal aliens have NOT learned our language, do NOT care for our culture and do NOT want to become a coexistent part of society. They are here as symbiotes who feed off of our system, providing cheap labor in return for untaxed dollars that can be funneled into the central/south american country of their origin. All the while they claim to have no income and recieve as many government handouts as they can manage to qualify for. The number of "unemployed" mexican-american "work visa" holders in COBB COUNTY alone who are recieving unemployment and have been busted for working out of the parking lot of a home depot in this year is proof of that. Nobody ever said that because the migrant worker illegal aliens refused to speak english that they were stupid because it was true. They're racists. The hispanic migrant worker has figured out that the american government will cater to their needs if they cry for help all the while they hold a steady $6-$7 an hour job (60-70 Pesos an hour at current rates) that they send straight back to Mexico. These Migrant workers aren't working for any big business. They aren't working for a corporation who has to worry about filing paperwork on them. They're working for contractors who use them as contracted day laborers. It's on the worker to claim their income to the IRS, and it becomes almost on the honor system that these workers claim anything, since the only "contract" that is used is a verbal agreement and cash-in-hand at the end of the day. Those are the people who are creating problems for the mandatory-admission emergency medical care community who are doing births for now-american-citizen anchors but are never recieving any kind of compensation because the parents disappear into the breeze without any kind of Social Security number to even track.

People in YOUR situation need a VIABLE WAY TO BECOME AMERICAN CITIZENS. The Migrant Workers in this country DO NOT EVER WANT TO BE AMERICAN. They want to make money here, send it home so they have a good life, save all that money, and eventually go home to live it big. They are living their version of the American dream, and with the CURRENT system they create huge problems.

All of this goes away if you do away with the Income Tax, Social Security, and all the government oversight that comes with massive hand-out systems funded by tracked income systems. Switching to a different form of income collection based on something easier to track and enforce (Such as, for example, a retail sales tax collected by the retail point of sale system, or a tax on a government controlled neccessary good, like the Stamp Tax the british implemented here that helped to start the revolution) means that the Migrant Workers who are behaving the exact same way they are now, suddenly become legal workers who nobody has any problem with. Every american can do what they're doing and not worry about being arrested or facing massive fines from the IRS for tax evasion. The problem isn't the Migrant workers who have figured out how to game the system. The problem is the system that allows people to game it at all. All the supports of Obama want to see government in charge of healthcare, something that is and should always be the responsibility of those who want to stay healthy, and yet they have NO ANSWERS as to how to make the government ACTUALLY DO WHAT IS THE GOVERNMENT'S JOB. That is to enforce the laws that are on the books.

We don't LIVE in a Democracy. We live in a Representative Republic based on the RULE OF LAW. If 51% of the people in a democracy wanted to see every black person put back in slavery, then that becomes what the country's laws are. Instead America is not based on mob-rule, something the Founding Fathers figured out was exactly as dangerous as the people who fought the revolution for them.


i like you we should hang out an grab a beer

nohomo

Maniacc
09-03-2008, 10:27 AM
I like to think that I'm a pretty well educated latino - and should stay no matter what happens! Haha, I'm here to stay, and won't be returning back to Mexico anytime soon and I can bet my d*ck on that. I know more about the United State's history than I do about Mexico's. I don't know jack sh*t about Mexico nor do I care to. This debate has been discussed numerous times on IA. There really is no point to drag this thread in that direction.

Kaiser
09-03-2008, 10:29 AM
i like you we should hang out an grab a beer

nohomo

Why? Just because I think being a good american means understanding how the government is supposed to work and being upset at idiots who want to abuse government for their own personal benefit at others expense? Cool!

Glad someone finally likes me for that. We should go have some beers, especially if you end up moving somewhere near Kennesaw, there's plenty of good places.

Maniacc
09-03-2008, 10:30 AM
Why? Just because I think being a good american means understanding how the government is supposed to work and being upset at idiots who want to abuse government for their own personal benefit at others expense? Cool!

Glad someone finally likes me for that. We should go have some beers, especially if you end up moving somewhere near Kennesaw, there's plenty of good places.
At the end of the day, you can't contain it. It's like a zombie outbreak. They'll break the barriers eventually.

bigdare23
09-03-2008, 10:31 AM
i like you we should hang out an grab a beer

nohomo


stop lie'n Mike



you want homo :lmfao:

Ran
09-03-2008, 10:33 AM
Why? Just because I think being a good american means understanding how the government is supposed to work and being upset at idiots who want to abuse government for their own personal benefit at others expense? Cool!

Glad someone finally likes me for that. We should go have some beers, especially if you end up moving somewhere near Kennesaw, there's plenty of good places.There are more of us thinking like that than you'd think. Granted I don't have quite the extensive knowledge as Mike and others, but I still support your stance. :goodjob:


At the end of the day, you can't contain it. It's like a zombie outbreak. They'll break the barriers eventually.I lol'd @ the thought of illegal mexican zombies.

Mexican Zombie: "Braaaaains~"
American Joe: "Are you a legally registered brain muncher?"
Mexican Zombie: "Nooooo~"
American Joe: "Then I'm sorry, but you'll have to lea-what are you doing?! ARGHHHH~!"

/threadjack

4dmin
09-03-2008, 10:34 AM
illegals ftl
/discussion

:goodjob:

your statement on the 120billion funding for the war was voted NO by Obama b/c majority of democrats were tired of Bush and other republicans failing to agree to start to make a timeline for troop withdrawl. Republicans keep asking for more and more money for a war that hasn't brought the US anything. Americans do not feel safer, we have spent 700+ billion w/o catching Bin Ladin, etc...

repbulicans have no where near to complain when they keep wanting to make tax cuts to benefit themselves while asking for me money to fund a losing battle. I'm sorry but if your making 1 million dollars a year you don't need any more tax cuts. i read every link i posted and others i didn't. all this talk of tax cuts is a joke if you really knew what republicans consider cutting. not to say democrats ask for money on leeching gov't aid systems, but when put into perspective the war could of funded everything we have discussed for bush's 8 year term ;)

ShooterMcGavin
09-03-2008, 10:40 AM
:goodjob:

your statement on the 120billion funding for the war was voted NO by Obama b/c majority of democrats were tired of Bush and other republicans failing to agree to start to make a timeline for troop withdrawl. Republicans keep asking for more and more money for a war that hasn't brought the US anything. Americans do not feel safer, we have spent 700+ billion w/o catching Bin Ladin, etc...

repbulicans have no where near to complain when they keep wanting to make tax cuts to benefit themselves while asking for me money to fund a losing battle. I'm sorry but if your making 1 million dollars a year you don't need any more tax cuts. i read every link i posted and others i didn't. all this talk of tax cuts is a joke if you really knew what republicans consider cutting. not to say democrats ask for money on leeching gov't aid systems, but when put into perspective the war could of funded everything we have discussed for bush's 8 year term ;)

yep, so you believe then it's our troops that should suffer then? bc it's obvious they aren't coming home, and if you decide to cut the funding then what're they going to eat? and what're they going to wear? and what're they gonig to use to shoot ragheads with? last i checked logic and reasoning didn't do much to stop a terrorist in his tracks...

Red_Phoenix
09-03-2008, 10:40 AM
Conversely there is no truancy requirement laws in those jurisdictions whose laws do not guarantee a public education for resident aliens for those same people. In other words, nowhere FORCES you to go to school if you're not a citizen that doesn't GUARANTEE you a chance to go to school if you're not a citizen..
Actually there are laws. And how you are as a student affects yoru status.




I don't want to hear about resident aliens tax situation though, because it's alot more complicated than people want to make it out to be. It's also not the problem with the current tax system...
If you only knew how much in taxes resident aliens pay. It rediculous



The problem is that most of the migrant worker illegal aliens have NOT learned our language, do NOT care for our culture and do NOT want to become a coexistent part of society. They are here as symbiotes who feed off of our system, providing cheap labor in return for untaxed dollars that can be funneled into the central/south american country of their origin. All the while they claim to have no income and recieve as many government handouts as they can manage to qualify for. The number of "unemployed" mexican-american "work visa" holders in COBB COUNTY alone who are recieving unemployment and have been busted for working out of the parking lot of a home depot in this year is proof of that. Nobody ever said that because the migrant worker illegal aliens refused to speak english that they were stupid because it was true. They're racists. The hispanic migrant worker has figured out that the american government will cater to their needs if they cry for help all the while they hold a steady $6-$7 an hour job (60-70 Pesos an hour at current rates) that they send straight back to Mexico. These Migrant workers aren't working for any big business. They aren't working for a corporation who has to worry about filing paperwork on them. They're working for contractors who use them as contracted day laborers. It's on the worker to claim their income to the IRS, and it becomes almost on the honor system that these workers claim anything, since the only "contract" that is used is a verbal agreement and cash-in-hand at the end of the day. Those are the people who are creating problems for the mandatory-admission emergency medical care community who are doing births for now-american-citizen anchors but are never recieving any kind of compensation because the parents disappear into the breeze without any kind of Social Security number to even track....
I will not disagree with you here....complately. Hence why I said there should be an amnesty but also a regulated one. I have 18 other illegals who work under dead ppls social securiy numbers. They pay taxes and stand on their own 2 feet without any benifits. I've run this place for a while and I have 1 rule for working here and that you have 1 year to learn english basics or your out. I have not had to get rid of a single person yet. They go in rotation to gwinett tech for classes (free). I know you were concentrating on the hispanic culture which in general has a rep for mooching and then sending it off to their homeland. However there are some like the ones I work with who came here in persuit of the american dream with no intentions of leave and I think they shoudl be giving a chance.



People in YOUR situation need a VIABLE WAY TO BECOME AMERICAN CITIZENS. The Migrant Workers in this country DO NOT EVER WANT TO BE AMERICAN. They want to make money here, send it home so they have a good life, save all that money, and eventually go home to live it big. They are living their version of the American dream, and with the CURRENT system they create huge problems.....

Thanks to the ever changing laws immigration is a *****. my family was lined up to start the green card process 4 times then the law changed every time and we had to start over. Since 9/11 this has proven impossible


All of this goes away if you do away with the Income Tax, Social Security, and all the government oversight that comes with massive hand-out systems funded by tracked income systems. Switching to a different form of income collection based on something easier to track and enforce (Such as, for example, a retail sales tax collected by the retail point of sale system, or a tax on a government controlled neccessary good, like the Stamp Tax the british implemented here that helped to start the revolution) means that the Migrant Workers who are behaving the exact same way they are now, suddenly become legal workers who nobody has any problem with. Every american can do what they're doing and not worry about being arrested or facing massive fines from the IRS for tax evasion. The problem isn't the Migrant workers who have figured out how to game the system. The problem is the system that allows people to game it at all. All the supports of Obama want to see government in charge of healthcare, something that is and should always be the responsibility of those who want to stay healthy, and yet they have NO ANSWERS as to how to make the government ACTUALLY DO WHAT IS THE GOVERNMENT'S JOB. That is to enforce the laws that are on the books......

The government does need to step up and take care of business. I don't htink its doing half of what it should.

To everyone who is upset about workers using dead ppls socials to work. Well If it weren't for all those illegals working under those numbers GA would not have the nicely paved roads it does (go drive in another state liek KY or MI if you don't think so) since the dep. of transportation gets soooo much money from the tax dollars of "dead ppl"

Stormhammer
09-03-2008, 10:41 AM
statiscally speaking ( there's even a huge billboard on I-85 stating this ) I think its like illegals pay 175+ millions of dollars in taxes that the GA Department of Transportation is using.

Plus I like whatevertheirface's plan is to help Mexico's struggling economy. Bring up their economy, gives incentive for immigrants to go back, thus theoritically creating jobs in the american market and hopefully strengthening the american economy. or something like that.

either way i dont care.

Kaiser
09-03-2008, 10:44 AM
At the end of the day, you can't contain it. It's like a zombie outbreak. They'll break the barriers eventually.


That's why, if you notice, I pointed out a solution, rather than containment.

Kaiser's Three Step Solution, simplified!
1.) Erase the difference between citizens and non-citizens. (This is already starting in some ways, such as giving CITIZEN'S rights to the Gitmo detainees who would have been shot by any country that followed the Geneva conventions)
2.) Erase taxes based on the income of individual citizens. (This is a direct tax that had to have a constitutional amendment to be enacted, it's against the spirit of the tax rules in the articles of the constitution, and was struck down before the government pulled a massive campaign to have it enacted as an amendment under the guise of a "Temporary War Tax" that never went away)
3.) Require citizens to provide FOR THEMSELVES whenever possible. (Temporary assistance for those who are in true need is good. Unemployment assistance is a good thing. Paying for people's retirement or healthcare is BAD. The government's job is to protect us, defend us, and enforce the laws. Not to hand out money to people or to pay for you to have your kids born when you don't have enough money to pay for it. Learn some responsibility!)

When you do all this, you literally remove the blocks that prop up the illegal migrant worker phenomenon. Yes, some of them will still be here. They will now be paying taxes. They will now have to compete with the rest of legal society. They will now have to have Driver's Liscenses and insurance on their cars or face jail time, rather than diving into a limbo zone where they never have to have consequences for their actions. They can continue to live in their own conclaves with their own culture and avoid assimilation with the rest of America. They can continue to provide cheap unskilled day labor for construction or other jobs, but they can now also do skilled labor (I've met a few Mexicans who could do plumbing better than the fat white guys you usually get, and cheaper too, but who were illegal and couldn't be bonded or insured and thus essentially couldn't work) and you create what this country is supposed to be about. Rule of law with open and free fair markets and competition. When you free up all the money that's tied up in this problem right now, and the government doesn't get their hands on it to kill all that with inefficiency, you have a strong economy, more small business owners (Because let's face it, alot of Hispanics DO start their own small businesses here) and with more small businesses, more jobs for everyone.

Time and time again, the American government has tried to ban or outlaw things. Chinese immigration, alchohol, "controlled substances", Abortion. They have ALWAYS failed. That's because the government is not in a position to do those types of things. The American government was not designed to restrict the american citizens in that way. The founding fathers would look at the monstrous, bloated, cancerous behemoth that claims it's legitimacy from the constitution many of them helped write, and would probably burn the constitution on the spot. Does that help us any? No, we need to find solutions for NOW, starting with focusing on what China and most of the rest of the world has been focusing on. Making government more ECO(nomic)FRIENDLY.


Edit: I never said Resident Aliens didn't pay taxes. Actually I said they DID pay taxes. However they would never pay MORE than a real citizen does. ILLEGAL ALIENS often do not pay taxes, at least not the ones I focused on AS THE PROBLEM. The MIGRANT ILLEGAL WORKERS who stand in front of Home Depots and work FOR CASH IN HAND at END OF DAY all the while filing for unemployment assistance, TANF, Food Stamps, and every other form of assistance they can get.

I want to reiterate, so people can clearly pull this one main thing out:

NOT ALL ILLEGALS ARE THE PROBLEM.

The immigration system in american DOES NOT PROVIDE A REASONABLE WAY FOR PEOPLE WANTING TO BE AMERICANS TO GET THERE. IT'S STUPID. If you WANT to be here, WANT to pay taxes, WANT to vote, WANT to work here, then you shouldn't have to wait months on end to get a GREEN card. You should have to wait for a background check to make sure you're not fleeing from arrest or conviction, then you should be NATURALIZED as a citizen, forfeit citizenship of other nations, and have all the rights and responsibilities of any other natural born american citizen.

The PROBLEM is the MIGRANT ILLEGAL WORKERS who do not EVER want to be American. They are not here to live the dream. They are here to milk the golden cow and go back home to Mexico. As I pointed out, it's a GENIUS idea, but it's a PARASITE on our backs. This is the Parasite that would be killed by LEGALIZING people like you (And your friends) Who WANT TO BE HERE BUT HAVE TO HIDE. The Migrant workers don't care if they get deported. They just COME RIGHT BACK.

You also pointed out the need for dead social security numbers to pay taxes to avoid suspicion and not get caught. That goes away when you kill the income tax. Lastly, if you're in America, the government shouldn't be paying for your health insurance. YOU SHOULD. If you don't want health INSURANCE then you can wait until you get hurt or sick and pay for health CARE. The only reason why it's reasonable to require you to have AUTO insurance is LIABILITY in case you hurt someone ELSE. There's no LAW requiring you to have comprehensive on your own car, why do you need to have Health insurance on yourserlf?

Maniacc
09-03-2008, 10:45 AM
That's why, if you notice, I pointed out a solution, rather than containment.

Kaiser's Three Step Solution, simplified!
1.) Erase the difference between citizens and non-citizens. (This is already starting in some ways, such as giving CITIZEN'S rights to the Gitmo detainees who would have been shot by any country that followed the Geneva conventions)
2.) Erase taxes based on the income of individual citizens. (This is a direct tax that had to have a constitutional amendment to be enacted, it's against the spirit of the tax rules in the articles of the constitution, and was struck down before the government pulled a massive campaign to have it enacted as an amendment under the guise of a "Temporary War Tax" that never went away)
3.) Require citizens to provide FOR THEMSELVES whenever possible. (Temporary assistance for those who are in true need is good. Unemployment assistance is a good thing. Paying for people's retirement or healthcare is BAD. The government's job is to protect us, defend us, and enforce the laws. Not to hand out money to people or to pay for you to have your kids born when you don't have enough money to pay for it. Learn some responsibility!)

When you do all this, you literally remove the blocks that prop up the illegal migrant worker phenomenon. Yes, some of them will still be here. They will now be paying taxes. They will now have to compete with the rest of legal society. They will now have to have Driver's Liscenses and insurance on their cars or face jail time, rather than diving into a limbo zone where they never have to have consequences for their actions. They can continue to live in their own conclaves with their own culture and avoid assimilation with the rest of America. They can continue to provide cheap unskilled day labor for construction or other jobs, but they can now also do skilled labor (I've met a few Mexicans who could do plumbing better than the fat white guys you usually get, and cheaper too, but who were illegal and couldn't be bonded or insured and thus essentially couldn't work) and you create what this country is supposed to be about. Rule of law with open and free fair markets and competition. When you free up all the money that's tied up in this problem right now, and the government doesn't get their hands on it to kill all that with inefficiency, you have a strong economy, more small business owners (Because let's face it, alot of Hispanics DO start their own small businesses here) and with more small businesses, more jobs for everyone.

Time and time again, the American government has tried to ban or outlaw things. Chinese immigration, alchohol, "controlled substances", Abortion. They have ALWAYS failed. That's because the government is not in a position to do those types of things. The American government was not designed to restrict the american citizens in that way. The founding fathers would look at the monstrous, bloated, cancerous behemoth that claims it's legitimacy from the constitution many of them helped write, and would probably burn the constitution on the spot. Does that help us any? No, we need to find solutions for NOW, starting with focusing on what China and most of the rest of the world has been focusing on. Making government more ECO(nomic)FRIENDLY.
I didn't bother to read your first post. And I won't bother with this one. Reading is terrible. It's all stone-age 'n sh!t - cliffs?

Kaiser
09-03-2008, 10:55 AM
I didn't bother to read your first post. And I won't bother with this one. Reading is terrible. It's all stone-age 'n sh!t - cliffs?

Cliffs:
*Illegals are not all bad.
*Migrant workers are parasites.
*Solution is to restructure government for betterment of all americans.
*People who want government to provide for their every need are lazy idiots who don't grasp the concept of individual responsibility or the purpose of GOVERNment.
*Government banning things (Like immigration, alchohol, marijuana, etc.) has always failed and always will.


PS: Sorry for those of you with smaller than 22" widescreen monitors. Still getting used to my new birthday gift and don't know how much is "wall of text."

PPS: Tax cuts. Could be done away with as political tool for fooling the public by implementing a hard constitutionally amendment included rate that requires ratification of another amendment to modify. Perhaps say a 23% national retail sales tax in an amendment that also requires the government to stop all deficit spending and learn who to budget like the rest of us do. One day, maybe the government would be small enough that it'd stop smothering us again. Companies like Google aren't growing huge inside America because of our tax code. Google is huge because of India.

PPPS: Budget Calculator (http://www.nathannewman.org/cgi-bin/NBS/report.budget06.pl) Something at least a few of you may find interesting to look at and play with. Especially those of you who think there's a way to balance the budget. It's overly simplified, but remember everything you cut or add to is going to piss someone off. Someone who might not vote for you lol. Politics is a *****.

Vteckidd
09-03-2008, 11:11 AM
Why? Just because I think being a good american means understanding how the government is supposed to work and being upset at idiots who want to abuse government for their own personal benefit at others expense? Cool!

Glad someone finally likes me for that. We should go have some beers, especially if you end up moving somewhere near Kennesaw, there's plenty of good places.
Im in kennesaw now son!

Keegans ?

Taco Mac on CHastain?

Kaiser
09-03-2008, 11:23 AM
Im in kennesaw now son!

Keegans ?

Taco Mac on CHastain?

Did you end up moving into Ridenour? If so, you Ironically live right behind Keegan's, and I live right across the street from Taco Mac. There's also Sidelines, the Bar at Friday's, and Twisted Taco too.

http://static.squidoo.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens1299382_threadjack.jpg

Vteckidd
09-03-2008, 11:24 AM
Yeah im in Ridenour now, in an apartment but possibly buying a townhome in here if i get the chance

Kaiser
09-03-2008, 11:28 AM
That's a beautiful place over there. If you're serious about getting some drinks then PM me a time later this week that's good for you, and pick a place. Nohomo, I promise.

4dmin
09-03-2008, 11:33 AM
yep, so you believe then it's our troops that should suffer then? bc it's obvious they aren't coming home, and if you decide to cut the funding then what're they going to eat? and what're they going to wear? and what're they gonig to use to shoot ragheads with? last i checked logic and reasoning didn't do much to stop a terrorist in his tracks...

i support bringing a resolution to the war that has cost us 100's of billions and resulted in very little. you have to go both sides to this...

republicans ask for more money w/o giving results

democrats say no to money w/o results

you can't expect people to go 100% all of the time.... bush has shot down resolutions/results holding iraq responsible since this began. he is doing nothing but milking our gov't. there is no if then or buts about it... it is fact. he refuses to bring an end to this war that is why he is not pushing his nose more into iran/russia.

ps. if we stopped war funding the war would end and withdrawl would begin.

Kaiser
09-03-2008, 11:51 AM
i support bringing a resolution to the war that has cost us 100's of billions and resulted in very little. you have to go both sides to this...

republicans ask for more money w/o giving results

democrats say no to money w/o results

you can't expect people to go 100% all of the time.... bush has shot down resolutions/results holding iraq responsible since this began. he is doing nothing but milking our gov't. there is no if then or buts about it... it is fact. he refuses to bring an end to this war that is why he is not pushing his nose more into iran/russia.

ps. if we stopped war funding the war would end and withdrawl would begin.

You're right. This war has been going on long enough. We should end it now and bring our troops home.

Let's do the same thing in: Korea. Japan. Taiwan. Afghanistan. Kuwait. Saudi Arabia. Germany. All the others who have been "Occupied" by American troops in the 60+ years since World War 2.

Then we can cut the number of troops our military has, stop funding for new equipment too. What would we DO with all this money?! Then the world would have to fend for itself for it's defense and security. The UN might have to employ peacekeeping troops to areas around the world where another foreign nation has (without any real motivation) invaded a sovereign state with little more than two or three days of CNN coverage that faded faster than riples in a still pond. We can also cut off foreign aid to nations in economic stress. What WOULD we do with all this MONEY we'd save? We could dump it all into the home mortgage market. We could take the sum total of all mortgages in the country, compare how much money we have a year, and start writing checks. If we could save 20% of the total of all mortgages in the country...we could just write a check, once every year for the next five years, and pay off everyone's mortgage. Then they have all that cash from owning their own homes. Massive personal equity, a bulletproof economic backing that comes from SOLID assets that are 100% owned by everyone. Then we could just cut the taxes down to eliminate the government ever having that money again and just let the people keep it. Realistically we'd gain 25-30% of the current GDP in growth over the next 5 years at least. Average annual income after-taxes would be up almost $30,000 if we could pull that off.

The downside is being militarily unprepared should we need to go into a world-war type scenario again, but hey.


That's what the nukes are for right?

ShooterMcGavin
09-03-2008, 12:52 PM
i support bringing a resolution to the war that has cost us 100's of billions and resulted in very little. you have to go both sides to this...

republicans ask for more money w/o giving results

democrats say no to money w/o results

you can't expect people to go 100% all of the time.... bush has shot down resolutions/results holding iraq responsible since this began. he is doing nothing but milking our gov't. there is no if then or buts about it... it is fact. he refuses to bring an end to this war that is why he is not pushing his nose more into iran/russia.

ps. if we stopped war funding the war would end and withdrawl would begin.
are you personally guaranteeing it?

4dmin
09-03-2008, 01:11 PM
are you personally guaranteeing it?

no b/c bush might be dumb enough to continue such a war w/o funding... he would then have a scap goat like he has had for 8 years on funding for the war. it is a seesaw.

the us has a military budget - we could of just as easily flown a plane into mnts of Afghanistan and devastated everything and increased satellite coverage to increase security from training cames in the region. in the mean time we would be saving 10 billion a month; granted this money may not even filter back into US pockets probably due to the fact we wouldn't have to borrow as much money now from other countries in other areas.

Total_Blender
09-03-2008, 01:26 PM
ps. if we stopped war funding the war would end and withdrawl would begin.

Yes, this is traditionally the way that Congress has challenged the President's war-making abilities. There are many times in history that the Pres has asked Congress for a budget for a war and been denied. :goodjob:

Jaimecbr900
09-03-2008, 01:39 PM
The federal government has nothing (and should have nothing) to do with what amounts to a local problem of resident aliens owning property and paying property tax on it that is used for public education. In all seriousness, the way provisions are set up, there is no guarantee of a public education for resident aliens who are not citizens. Conversely there is no truancy requirement laws in those jurisdictions whose laws do not guarantee a public education for resident aliens for those same people. In other words, nowhere FORCES you to go to school if you're not a citizen that doesn't GUARANTEE you a chance to go to school if you're not a citizen. I don't want to hear about resident aliens tax situation though, because it's alot more complicated than people want to make it out to be. It's also not the problem with the current tax system.

The problem is that most of the migrant worker illegal aliens have NOT learned our language, do NOT care for our culture and do NOT want to become a coexistent part of society. They are here as symbiotes who feed off of our system, providing cheap labor in return for untaxed dollars that can be funneled into the central/south american country of their origin. All the while they claim to have no income and recieve as many government handouts as they can manage to qualify for. The number of "unemployed" mexican-american "work visa" holders in COBB COUNTY alone who are recieving unemployment and have been busted for working out of the parking lot of a home depot in this year is proof of that. Nobody ever said that because the migrant worker illegal aliens refused to speak english that they were stupid because it was true. They're racists. The hispanic migrant worker has figured out that the american government will cater to their needs if they cry for help all the while they hold a steady $6-$7 an hour job (60-70 Pesos an hour at current rates) that they send straight back to Mexico. These Migrant workers aren't working for any big business. They aren't working for a corporation who has to worry about filing paperwork on them. They're working for contractors who use them as contracted day laborers. It's on the worker to claim their income to the IRS, and it becomes almost on the honor system that these workers claim anything, since the only "contract" that is used is a verbal agreement and cash-in-hand at the end of the day. Those are the people who are creating problems for the mandatory-admission emergency medical care community who are doing births for now-american-citizen anchors but are never recieving any kind of compensation because the parents disappear into the breeze without any kind of Social Security number to even track.

People in YOUR situation need a VIABLE WAY TO BECOME AMERICAN CITIZENS. The Migrant Workers in this country DO NOT EVER WANT TO BE AMERICAN. They want to make money here, send it home so they have a good life, save all that money, and eventually go home to live it big. They are living their version of the American dream, and with the CURRENT system they create huge problems.

All of this goes away if you do away with the Income Tax, Social Security, and all the government oversight that comes with massive hand-out systems funded by tracked income systems. Switching to a different form of income collection based on something easier to track and enforce (Such as, for example, a retail sales tax collected by the retail point of sale system, or a tax on a government controlled neccessary good, like the Stamp Tax the british implemented here that helped to start the revolution) means that the Migrant Workers who are behaving the exact same way they are now, suddenly become legal workers who nobody has any problem with. Every american can do what they're doing and not worry about being arrested or facing massive fines from the IRS for tax evasion. The problem isn't the Migrant workers who have figured out how to game the system. The problem is the system that allows people to game it at all. All the supports of Obama want to see government in charge of healthcare, something that is and should always be the responsibility of those who want to stay healthy, and yet they have NO ANSWERS as to how to make the government ACTUALLY DO WHAT IS THE GOVERNMENT'S JOB. That is to enforce the laws that are on the books.

We don't LIVE in a Democracy. We live in a Representative Republic based on the RULE OF LAW. If 51% of the people in a democracy wanted to see every black person put back in slavery, then that becomes what the country's laws are. Instead America is not based on mob-rule, something the Founding Fathers figured out was exactly as dangerous as the people who fought the revolution for them.


Edit: A note about the wages, for some perspective. A 10 hour day in America at $6 an hour amounts to over 600 Pesos. The average daily wage in Mexico, according to their own government, is around 200 Pesos. This means that in a six day week, a migrant worker can work a whole month's average wage, and still have Sunday to be a good Catholic. In 10 years of being in America at the pitiful price of $6 an hour, a Migrant Worker could make a whole LIFETIME'S pay in Mexico. When you talk about other central-american countries like Nicaragua or Panama, the situation looks even better for Migrant Workers. These people aren't stupid, they are economic geniuses. I wish there were Jobs in England right now, I'd be hopping a merchant marine boat to try and earn some dough now. Of course another way to end the Migrant Worker phenomenon is to crush our currency into smithereens the same way the Japanese did, and turn our economy into an export economy. Then we'd have a rock-solid economic powerhouse that took a blow bigger than what caused the great depression in America and still stand. Not that long ago their stock market crashed far worse than ours ever did, and yet their economy essentially "Couldn't get any worse" and they bounced right back up from it to where they are now.

Best post ever. Congrats for having a fully functioning brain unlike the masses. Major, Major Props. :goodjob:

Jaimecbr900
09-03-2008, 02:00 PM
I find it ironic that anyone would even attempt to defend someone committing a criminal act. It's beyond me. Is it illegal for you to be here, yes or no? It's that black and white.

I helped someone, won't mention names but suffice it to say very close to me, with immigration issues. They wanted to be legal, so they went thru the PITA process. Yes, it's a PITA. Yes, it's ambiguos. But at the end of the day, they did it and now are 100% legal without any worries. Why? BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO. They didn't wallow in a sea of excuses. They just simply said, "you want me to jump how high?....Ok, here you go" and did it. It took months to do it, but they got it done. So I don't want to hear all the excuses that even though it is a PITA and it really SHOULD be easier for those that are WANTING to be here legally. It CAN be done, WHEN you WANT to. Waiting for amnesty is NOT doing something. It is no different than the other lazy a$$es that live off welfare and benefits when they could easily work for themselves because they are wishing on a star that a $100k/yr job falls into their lap. No different.

So stop all the excuses and DO something about your legal status. Don't give me this "we pave all your roads", "we do jobs you won't do".....damn right it won't get done if all you're willing to pay is $6/hr. If you put it up to where even the illegals had to compete on a level playing field with everyone else, they wouldn't do it for $6/hr either. It was eloquently explained by Kaiser in another post if you want to see the reason why.

What's next? Drug dealers forming unions to get their sentences reduced? Maybe we'll have bank robbers picket banks because they have alarm systems???? Dur, dur......:rolleyes:

4dmin
09-03-2008, 02:04 PM
I find it ironic that anyone would even attempt to defend someone committing a criminal act. It's beyond me. Is it illegal for you to be here, yes or no? It's that black and white.

I helped someone, won't mention names but suffice it to say very close to me, with immigration issues. They wanted to be legal, so they went thru the PITA process. Yes, it's a PITA. Yes, it's ambiguos. But at the end of the day, they did it and now are 100% legal without any worries. Why? BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO. They didn't wallow in a sea of excuses. They just simply said, "you want me to jump how high?....Ok, here you go" and did it. It took months to do it, but they got it done. So I don't want to hear all the excuses that even though it is a PITA and it really SHOULD be easier for those that are WANTING to be here legally. It CAN be done, WHEN you WANT to. Waiting for amnesty is NOT doing something. It is no different than the other lazy a$$es that live off welfare and benefits when they could easily work for themselves because they are wishing on a star that a $100k/yr job falls into their lap. No different.

So stop all the excuses and DO something about your legal status. Don't give me this "we pave all your roads", "we do jobs you won't do".....damn right it won't get done if all you're willing to pay is $6/hr. If you put it up to where even the illegals had to compete on a level playing field with everyone else, they wouldn't do it for $6/hr either. It was eloquently explained by Kaiser in another post if you want to see the reason why.

What's next? Drug dealers forming unions to get their sentences reduced? Maybe we'll have bank robbers picket banks because they have alarm systems???? Dur, dur......:rolleyes:

:lmfao:+50

Jaimecbr900
09-03-2008, 02:39 PM
:lmfao:+50

You liked that?......;) :D

4dmin
09-03-2008, 02:44 PM
^ i bolded what i thought was funny ... and you didn't say anything that i really disagree w/.

Jaimecbr900
09-03-2008, 02:46 PM
^ i bolded what i thought was funny ... and you didn't say anything that i really disagree w/.

You mean you're not going to brow beat me about something I said......Holy miracles Batman......hell hath frozen over......:lmfao: :D JP.

4dmin
09-03-2008, 02:47 PM
You mean you're not going to brow beat me about something I said......Holy miracles Batman......hell hath frozen over......:lmfao: :D JP.

there are a few things i'm sure we agree on... religion, abortion, bush, etc i'm sure are not any of them.

Jaimecbr900
09-03-2008, 02:50 PM
there are a few things i'm sure we agree on... religion, abortion, bush, etc i'm sure are not any of them.

I'm actually pro-choice.....;) Bet you didn't see that coming, did you? ;)

4dmin
09-03-2008, 03:01 PM
I'm actually pro-choice.....;) Bet you didn't see that coming, did you? ;)

nope i swore you weren't... :cheers:

Maniacc
09-03-2008, 03:02 PM
I find it ironic that anyone would even attempt to defend someone committing a criminal act. It's beyond me. Is it illegal for you to be here, yes or no? It's that black and white.
You as a latino should understand what the majority of not all go through when they first arrive here. You're Dominican, right? I'm sure you're aware that the process to gain citizenship isn't an over night thing. Some people have to wait years for it - and a lot just don't really know where to look. I've been here since I was 6 months old and I am still illegal - And am not ashamed to admit it. I just can't really understand why latin people choose to act like it's not a big deal when they're not the ones in the situation.

Kids like me were brought here, we didn't have a choice. I know I should get the ball rollin' on my situation but I honestly don't even know where to start. I know eventually the time will come when I will have to act. But as of now, I could really careless if I'm legal or not, I get a sh*t load of money taken away from me everytime I get a check from work. I don't put any dependents down because I rather do stuff the legal way just in case something comes up in the future where I'll have proof of me doing so and so. Take hispanics who hardly know any english. How are they going to make it? If our 'raza' was more organized I'm sure we wouldn't have as many illegals as we do now.

ShooterMcGavin
09-03-2008, 03:06 PM
You as a latino should understand what the majority of not all go through when they first arrive here. You're Dominican, right? I'm sure you're aware that the process to gain citizenship isn't an over night thing. Some people have to wait years for it - and a lot just don't really know where to look. I've been here since I was 6 months old and I am still illegal - And am not ashamed to admit it. I just can't really understand why latin people choose to act like it's not a big deal when they're not the ones in the situation.

Kids like me were brought here, we didn't have a choice. I know I should get the ball rollin' on my situation but I honestly don't even know where to start. I know eventually the time will come when I will have to act. But as of now, I could really careless if I'm legal or not, I get a sh*t load of money taken away from me everytime I get a check from work. I don't put any dependents down because I rather do stuff the legal way just in case something comes up in the future where I'll have proof of me doing so and so. Take hispanics who hardly know any english. How are they going to make it? If our 'raza' was more organized I'm sure we wouldn't have as many illegals as we do now.
ignorance is not an excuse ;)

Jaimecbr900
09-03-2008, 03:54 PM
You as a latino should understand what the majority of not all go through when they first arrive here. You're Dominican, right? I'm sure you're aware that the process to gain citizenship isn't an over night thing. Some people have to wait years for it - and a lot just don't really know where to look. I've been here since I was 6 months old and I am still illegal - And am not ashamed to admit it. I just can't really understand why latin people choose to act like it's not a big deal when they're not the ones in the situation.

#1. I'm not Dominican. I'm Puerto Rican, so I've been a citizen since birth.
#2. Eventhough I didn't need to personally go thru the naturalization process, as I stated earlier, I did help someone go thru it. I KNOW what a PITA it is. I know all the red tape they had to go thru. I know all the BS stuff they had to go thru. But they still did it and got it done. If someone doesn't want to go thru the trouble it's one thing, but don't blame that on society. You have only one person to blame.
#3. It is actually a very big deal to me. You know why? Because every ignorant redneck and has-been THINKS that I'm Mexican. Remember, we all look-a-like....:rolleyes: So I've been globbed in with illegals myself. I've seen what that does to someone. I've been asked for my "green card" on more than one occassion. I'm not one bit worried about that part. Ignorant people are ignorant. Good for them. But when real Mexicans act like they don't have to assimilate to the society THEY CHOSE to be in, act like hoodlums, play right into the stereo types that they're put in......it bugs the living crap out of me. Why? Because that's no way to represent your race IMO. And since I'm globbed into that "race" by the ignorant masses, it does indeed reflect (albeit indirectly) on me. So yeah, it does bug me.


Kids like me were brought here, we didn't have a choice. I know I should get the ball rollin' on my situation but I honestly don't even know where to start. I know eventually the time will come when I will have to act. But as of now, I could really careless if I'm legal or not, I get a sh*t load of money taken away from me everytime I get a check from work. I don't put any dependents down because I rather do stuff the legal way just in case something comes up in the future where I'll have proof of me doing so and so. Take hispanics who hardly know any english. How are they going to make it? If our 'raza' was more organized I'm sure we wouldn't have as many illegals as we do now.

Again, this is strictly YOUR fault. Know why? Because there are a bunch of resources available IF you want to do it right. So "not knowing where to start" is not an excuse. You can call, write, even look up on the net how to do it all perfectly legal. It's a matter of wanting to do it. That's exactly my point. I'm standing up and NOT letting my "race" use excuses as a reason to be illegal. You're illegal because YOU want to be. If you have no reason to get declined, then you need only start the process. Months will pass regardless. Next year will come even if you DON'T apply, right? So what do you have to lose? Yes, if you did it wrong in the beginning you may have to travel back to your country of origin to start the process properly, but that's part of the deal.

That's like not taking a shower because you know you'll eventually get dirty again. How's that make any sense? Well, neither does sitting back and waiting on some amnesty program to grant you what you SHOULD have done all along.

With all that said and knowing what I know now......it really is far more difficult to get the proper paperwork processed than it should be. It is unfair many times. But it is what it is. It's the law, and much like the 55 mph speed limit that is ridiculous....we have to do it or pay the price.

Red_Phoenix
09-03-2008, 04:14 PM
It CAN be done, WHEN you WANT to. Waiting for amnesty is NOT doing something. It is no different than the other lazy a$$es that live off welfare and benefits when they could easily work for themselves because they are wishing on a star that a $100k/yr job falls into their lap. No different.

So stop all the excuses and DO something about your legal status. Don't give me this "we pave all your roads", "we do jobs you won't do".....damn right it won't get done if all you're willing to pay is $6/hr.

Sorry to say this was the dumbest thing I ever heard. Let it be clear to everyone that unless you have status here in the USA YOU CANNOT CHANGE IT. If you are here illegally you have to a-get married to am american or B- Hope to god you have a family member somewhere down the line to spncer you. Period. PITA no longer exist and hasn't for a while. The is no jump from illegal and there is no "oh you can fix it if you want to " BS there used to be but now its gone. Please refresh yourselves on current immigration law before you start to throw it out there. And since I saw you are latino yourselve those are strong words to say. Why it it when a latino gets his papers he turns into an *******. I've seen it sooo many times. You shoudl respect your roots for real