Happy that Obama is slipping in the polls?

[tony]

Then I have two questions for you:

Who elects the president?

Who won the popular vote (of which these polls gauge) in 2000?

In other words, polls don't mean jack ****.

That is all.

[4dmin]

actually what i don't understand is the current focus on Hillary supporters... you have to be kidding me that people would jump ship to McCain from Hillary. That is like believing in God and now worshiping Satan :thinking: Don't make since(lol).

[bigdare23]

actually what i don't understand is the current focus on Hillary supporters... you have to be kidding me that people would jump ship to McCain from Hillary. That is like believing in God and now worshiping Satan :thinking: Don't make since(lol).


We all know why they are jumping ship just thinking about it....


They have a choice between a candidate that have similar views as "their" pick or some on with a different approach, and they choosing the guy with the different approach. WTF?!? That's telling me that they aren't voting for the right reasons now.

[bigdare23]

I wonder how the election would go if it was on the radio and not broadcast on television?

[4dmin]

We all know why they are jumping ship just thinking about it....


They have a choice between a candidate that have similar views as "their" pick or some on with a different approach, and they choosing the guy with the different approach. WTF?!? That's telling me that they aren't voting for the right reasons now.

i would assume most people don't vote for the right reasons - most mccain supports couldn't tell you his stance on a lot of sh!t nor to they probably remember him trying to jump ship and become a democrat back year 2000's, but the same goes w/ democrats people vote by the party not by the views of the leader a lot of times.

[4dmin]

I wonder how the election would go if it was on the radio and not broadcast on television?

no doubt :goodjob:

[EJ25RUN]

i would assume most people don't vote for the right reasons - most mccain supports couldn't tell you his stance on a lot of sh!t nor to they probably remember him trying to jump ship and become a democrat back year 2000's, but the same goes w/ democrats people vote by the party not by the views of the leader a lot of times.

And Obama supporter cant tell you a thing either. I actually follow the race closely so you cant tell me i haven't a clue.

I saw T.I. the other day blaming bush for gas prices going up while at a pro Obama event. Some people just like to blame everything on the president. I guess if my car brakes down it is the presidents fault too. :rolleyes:

Oh and Tony: this has been going on for 2 months.

McCain 08!

[AirMax95]

And Obama supporter cant either. I actually follow the race closely so you cant tell me i haven't a clue.

I saw T.I. the other day blaming bush for gas prices going up. Some people just like to blame everything on the president. I guess if my car brakes down it is the presidents fault too. :rolleyes:


Yeah, its the theory that bull**** trickles downstream, lol. Many people look at the President as the one in charge, so of course he should take all the heat, but its not all his fault. Comes with the territory.

The Hilary supporters are leaving mainly b/c of Obama's color, point blank and period. Yes, they did not have similar views on a lot of topics, but I don't see how they justify hopping on McCain's side for that reason alone. I hate to pull the color card, but it is what it is :(

[Vteckidd]

IF OBama was really the "call for change" and "do away with old politics" and so many people hate bush he should be DESTROYING Mccain in this election but he isnt.

Why is that?

1) He preaches change yet has demonstrated time and time again hes just as OLD POLITICS as anyone else

2) He has no substance

3) People are scared of a guy who has ZERO EXPERIENCE

4) Biden was about the WORST person he could have chosen. How can you preach old and tired politics suck then go out an get a 70 year old attatck dog VP running mate that is about as old washington as it gets.

5) I think you are starting to see people are very uncertain about what would happen if Obama got in.

At least with Mcain you KNOW you are going to have a similar 4 years as bush, similar policy, etc. With Obama no one has a CLUE what is going to happen. The future is uncertain, and to the CORE group of voters (lower to upper middle class white voters), they arent hearing what they want to hear.

Obama def can still win, but IMO if he didnt have a 15-20 point lead by now, then hes in trouble, and i think hes in BIG TROUBLE. If people are so tired of Bush and what Bush has been doing, then Obama should be WAY OUT IN FRONT and hes not.

[EJ25RUN]

Yeah, its the theory that bull**** trickles downstream, lol. Many people look at the President as the one in charge, so of course he should take all the heat, but its not all his fault. Comes with the territory.

The Hilary supporters are leaving mainly b/c of Obama's color, point blank and period. Yes, they did not have similar views on a lot of topics, but I don't see how they justify hopping on McCain's side for that reason alone. I hate to pull the color card, but it is what it is :(

Actually i blame Hillary supporters on being insane. I mean that the refurse to not have Hillary in office. Seriously, they really were expecting Obama to choose her :blah: . Anyways, no, they are all pmsing that she is out of the white house and just want to piss people off. Yes, this is free votes for McCain.

[AirMax95]

IF OBama was really the "call for change" and "do away with old politics" and so many people hate bush he should be DESTROYING Mccain in this election but he isnt.

Why is that?

1) He preaches change yet has demonstrated time and time again hes just as OLD POLITICS as anyone else

2) He has no substance

3) People are scared of a guy who has ZERO EXPERIENCE

4) Biden was about the WORST person he could have chosen. How can you preach old and tired politics suck then go out an get a 70 year old attatck dog VP running mate that is about as old washington as it gets.

5) I think you are starting to see people are very uncertain about what would happen if Obama got in.

At least with Mcain you KNOW you are going to have a similar 4 years as bush, similar policy, etc. With Obama no one has a CLUE what is going to happen. The future is uncertain, and to the CORE group of voters (lower to upper middle class white voters), they arent hearing what they want to hear.

Obama def can still win, but IMO if he didnt have a 15-20 point lead by now, then hes in trouble, and i think hes in BIG TROUBLE. If people are so tired of Bush and what Bush has been doing, then Obama should be WAY OUT IN FRONT and hes not.

Mike, I respect your points, but everyone knows that change is the hardest thing to accept. Of course we don't know what is going to "happen" with Obama's said "change". It is a risk that needs to be taken to see the picture. I do agree that is is uncertain. Think, Bush voters are kicking themselves right now because they thought they knew what they were getting. Ha, he showed them!

The CORE groups of voters that you described are not voting for Obama b/c of the color, and you know it. If Obama said what everyone wanted him to say, they still wouldn't vote for him. Majority of this country is not ready for Obama, and it will not be for another 12-16 years. A black person (or person of color) does not belong in the White House in this countries eyes. Hilary voters left the camp as soon as she was not nominated, not because of Obama's views, but color.

I can't find the post, but someone said in an older thread that he is just a black guy that talks well! I mean, ****, no matter what black people do it is still not good enough. I mean, why do you think he was chosen in the first place?

You can say that I am riding the race wall, but it is what it is!

Tell me how McCain is sooo much better? Everything in this country has accepted change, execpt our flakey leadership.

[onebadgt]

IF OBama was really the "call for change" and "do away with old politics" and so many people hate bush he should be DESTROYING Mccain in this election but he isnt.

Why is that?

1) He preaches change yet has demonstrated time and time again hes just as OLD POLITICS as anyone else

2) He has no substance

3) People are scared of a guy who has ZERO EXPERIENCE

4) Biden was about the WORST person he could have chosen. How can you preach old and tired politics suck then go out an get a 70 year old attatck dog VP running mate that is about as old washington as it gets.

5) I think you are starting to see people are very uncertain about what would happen if Obama got in.

At least with Mcain you KNOW you are going to have a similar 4 years as bush, similar policy, etc. With Obama no one has a CLUE what is going to happen. The future is uncertain, and to the CORE group of voters (lower to upper middle class white voters), they arent hearing what they want to hear.

Obama def can still win, but IMO if he didnt have a 15-20 point lead by now, then hes in trouble, and i think hes in BIG TROUBLE. If people are so tired of Bush and what Bush has been doing, then Obama should be WAY OUT IN FRONT and hes not.

i agree with nearly everything you stated above, i was never really loving the mcain pres. idea but compared to the unknown future we would have with obama that on its own is about enough for me!

[Vteckidd]

Airmax you are entitled to your opinion, im not going to say you are wrong.

But i think Race is not a big a deal as people are making it out to be.

The problem with your statement to me is that people are willing to just say "**** it lets see what happens" with the HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE COUNTRY! I mean we dont let Generals, CEOs of companies, etc have that kind of leeway why should the presidency?

I get it, most people dont like Bush you want something different, thats fine, but dont you want to know what that DIFFERENCE IS? I mean i could stand up an preach that im different than Bush and ill be better, ill make you mjore money, ill end wars, ill stop the energy crisis. Nevermind HOW im going to do it, just know that im GOING to do it.

LOL

To me its a double standard. if Obama DOESNT win it will be because he was black and the racial divide will grow. If he Does win, itll be because people voted for him BECAUSE HES BLACK, not his policies.

IMO its not the white poeple you should be criticizing, rather the vast majority of African Americans who are voting FOR OBAMA simple BECAUSE he is black.

IMO of course

[Vteckidd]

Also ill say i think its extremely poor and sad that in this day in age, BOTH SIDES, white and black, have or are going to make this a race issue.

I could care less that Obama is black, i just dont like him as a candidate.

[Vteckidd]

A black person (or person of color) does not belong in the White House in this countries eyes. Hilary voters left the camp as soon as she was not nominated, not because of Obama's views, but color.



How do you explaind the OVERWHELMING support for Colin Powell? If Colin Powell would have run 8 years ago he would have won in a landslide. Polls at the time were 2:1 in favor of him, a BLACK MAN.

The Clintons are some of the most pandering to blacks people on the planet. They jump at every chance to get in the camera to help the less fortunate, but somehow it always seems to be blacks they are helping lol.

Clinton was the biggest African American supporter with his social programs geared toward alot of them, not whites that were in the same areas with the same problems.

and the Democratic party is historically the "Black Party". ALmost every election more than 80% of the black vote goes to Dems, but this year there is MORE BLACK PEOPLE VOTING than ever before.

So i dont buy the Hillary supporters are going to mcain because hes white, sorry.

[onebadgt]

To me its a double standard. if Obama DOESNT win it will be because he was black and the racial divide will grow. If he Does win, itll be because people voted for him BECAUSE HES BLACK, not his policies.

IMO its not the white poeple you should be criticizing, rather the vast majority of African Americans who are voting FOR OBAMA simple BECAUSE he is black.

IMO of course[/QUOTE]

unfortunatly you are right, its sad to say. win or lose the racial divide will grow with some people because they are to stubbern to except it and will blame the opp. race! i listened to a debate on this on the radio yesterday and one white guy was saying that a record number of black voters will be voting that have never voted b4 and have bumper stickers that have never had them b4. while a black guy was using the arguement that the whites have always been in more powerful postions since the early 1900s and whites are just scared to change that!

to me both of the people seemed racist and were acting like they werent. that it was all the other person. i wish that noone knew what the canidates looked like and then see the election results!

[4dmin]

IF OBama was really the "call for change" and "do away with old politics" and so many people hate bush he should be DESTROYING Mccain in this election but he isnt.

Why is that?

1) He preaches change yet has demonstrated time and time again hes just as OLD POLITICS as anyone else

2) He has no substance

3) People are scared of a guy who has ZERO EXPERIENCE

4) Biden was about the WORST person he could have chosen. How can you preach old and tired politics suck then go out an get a 70 year old attatck dog VP running mate that is about as old washington as it gets.

5) I think you are starting to see people are very uncertain about what would happen if Obama got in.

At least with Mcain you KNOW you are going to have a similar 4 years as bush, similar policy, etc. With Obama no one has a CLUE what is going to happen. The future is uncertain, and to the CORE group of voters (lower to upper middle class white voters), they arent hearing what they want to hear.

Obama def can still win, but IMO if he didnt have a 15-20 point lead by now, then hes in trouble, and i think hes in BIG TROUBLE. If people are so tired of Bush and what Bush has been doing, then Obama should be WAY OUT IN FRONT and hes not.

I will have to agree to disagree w/ you on this Mike. I think the biggest difference between the two candidates is McCain plains on staying the course which if you haven't noticed isn't working for US. Our economy is in a sh!t can and a major change is needed quickly before you start to see this super power drop in world market.

Obama though can be said he is inexperience is the embodiment of America. Laugh if you like but I think he is fresh and exciting - I see him as the JFK of our generation. We currently have a president many voted into office 2x w/ tons of experience and he hasn't done jack ****. Obamas wife said it perfect last night, "THIS IS AN ELECTION OF DREAMS NOT FEARS".

I can't imagine what some people are thinking about wanting to endure another 4 years of Bush policy. Unfortunately I do think race is going to play a huge part in the next election. We'll see if minorities make it to the poles to support their canidate b/c we know the christian movement will be voting McCain. You can't expect the OLD and TIRED to vote anything else.

[Vteckidd]

touche

[Vteckidd]

but you do know the reason why our economy sucks is

1) The housing industry and crooked banks over lending (nothing to do with Bush) has tanked the economy. Its affecting every sector almost in the financial districts. Thousands defaulting on loans, banks going out of business, people cant buy homes now cant get loans for anything etc.

2) Oil Prices going up (you can argue its because we are in iraq, but the majority of analysts believe its because of Chinas increased demand)

3) Because of gas prices US Automakers are suffering (as they have been for years) because poeple arent buying SUVs they are going to foreign gas machines (Honda, Toyota, etc)

4) The only think i will blame Bush for is letting a ton of jobs go overseas. That along with illegal immigration is a serious threat to our infrastructure. Think about it jobs are going OVERSEAS leaving here, and the jobs left behind are being given to illegal aliens that dont pay taxes and mooch off our Healthcare system.

Other than that the economy is NOT BUSHs fault.

[tony]

Yeah, its the theory that bull**** trickles downstream, lol. Many people look at the President as the one in charge, so of course he should take all the heat, but its not all his fault. Comes with the territory.

The Hilary supporters are leaving mainly b/c of Obama's color, point blank and period. Yes, they did not have similar views on a lot of topics, but I don't see how they justify hopping on McCain's side for that reason alone. I hate to pull the color card, but it is what it is :(

That and the fact that he is a man, they do more of an injustice to the feminist movement by pulling this bull**** than anything else. McCain who wants to do away with Roe vs. Wade is the better choice than the candidate who is pro choice? Give me a damn break.

[Vteckidd]

I will agree alot of the Clinton supporters are Femi-Nazis

[4dmin]

but you do know the reason why our economy sucks is

1) The housing industry and crooked banks over lending (nothing to do with Bush) has tanked the economy. Its affecting every sector almost in the financial districts. Thousands defaulting on loans, banks going out of business, people cant buy homes now cant get loans for anything etc.

2) Oil Prices going up (you can argue its because we are in iraq, but the majority of analysts believe its because of Chinas increased demand)

3) Because of gas prices US Automakers are suffering (as they have been for years) because poeple arent buying SUVs they are going to foreign gas machines (Honda, Toyota, etc)

4) The only think i will blame Bush for is letting a ton of jobs go overseas. That along with illegal immigration is a serious threat to our infrastructure. Think about it jobs are going OVERSEAS leaving here, and the jobs left behind are being given to illegal aliens that dont pay taxes and mooch off our Healthcare system.

Other than that the economy is NOT BUSHs fault.

all of which are true but 700+ billion dollar war and a lack of white house support hasn't helped us one bit. i think Bush had an excellent opportunity to show why he was voted into office and it seems he has failed his voters and the rest of the country.

[AirMax95]

Airmax you are entitled to your opinion, im not going to say you are wrong.

But i think Race is not a big a deal as people are making it out to be.

The problem with your statement to me is that people are willing to just say "**** it lets see what happens" with the HIGHEST OFFICE IN THE COUNTRY! I mean we dont let Generals, CEOs of companies, etc have that kind of leeway why should the presidency?

I get it, most people dont like Bush you want something different, thats fine, but dont you want to know what that DIFFERENCE IS? I mean i could stand up an preach that im different than Bush and ill be better, ill make you mjore money, ill end wars, ill stop the energy crisis. Nevermind HOW im going to do it, just know that im GOING to do it.

LOL

To me its a double standard. if Obama DOESNT win it will be because he was black and the racial divide will grow. If he Does win, itll be because people voted for him BECAUSE HES BLACK, not his policies.

IMO its not the white poeple you should be criticizing, rather the vast majority of African Americans who are voting FOR OBAMA simple BECAUSE he is black.

IMO of course

Completely understood. I followed Obama when he was in Chicago, I see how he worked there. I personally feel that we need a change in that someone who is more down to earth with the poeple of this country, not just the "well to do" and wealthy. It may be hard to grasp, but they guy knows his stuff. He has a record of pulling together a team to work seamlessly for the common good. He has not demonstrated a personal agenda, no record of screwing up, and from 1997 to the present he has progressed quickly in a positive light. I agree that he does not have the experience that McCain has, nor is he older than Ga red clay, but what does do is listen----analyze-----listen----research-----analyze-----decide.

For instance, he was all for pulling out of the war immediately, then he stated a timeline, then that timeline changed. You say filp flop, I say he listened and got more insight and advice. Bottom line, he is willing to listen and not fly off the handle and screw America.

Double standard, I COMPLETELY AGREE! I criticize BOTH, but in constructive manner. I know that many african americans are voting for him b/c he is black, just like many whites are not viting for him b/c he is black. I was responding to the post, not just slamming whites. No one should be let off the hook for voting on someones color.

....and RACE plays a big part, VERY BIG!!!

[Vteckidd]

all of which are true but 700+ billion dollar war and a lack of white house support hasn't helped us one bit. i think Bush had an excellent opportunity to show why he was voted into office and it seems he has failed his voters and the rest of the country.
Oh yeah, i forgot about that Iraq Thing :)

Yes it does hurt spending that kind of money ,and i will agree i think it is at a loss to our country.

But i do think that the money was being spent some other way, i cant recall how, i remember seeing a thing on CNN about how people were complaining about the 15Billion a month we spend in Iraq, and someone posted a thing saying how before the war we were spending it on bull**** pork programs for congress .

ill see if i can find it

Again im not saying bush is the best president ever, but i do think Mcain can do a better job than Obama, i think Mcain knows what his role is and that is a 4 year calm **** down and get ready to groom the next president in 2012.

Funny thing is that last week they announced they are close to a withdrawal date for Iraq lol

[AirMax95]

all of which are true but 700+ billion dollar war and a lack of white house support hasn't helped us one bit. i think Bush had an excellent opportunity to show why he was voted into office and it seems he has failed his voters and the rest of the country.

GP!!!! Our economy is sucking and he wants to pump more $$$ into the war. He is a president with a personal agenda, not a president of the people. Sure, he gave a stimulus check and is helping the housing market fix a screw up...... :???:

Not gonna cut it.

[Vteckidd]

Completely understood. I followed Obama when he was in Chicago, I see how he worked there. I personally feel that we need a change in that someone who is more down to earth with the poeple of this country, not just the "well to do" and wealthy. It may be hard to grasp, but they guy knows his stuff. He has a record of pulling together a team to work seamlessly for the common good. He has not demonstrated a personal agenda, no record of screwing up, and from 1997 to the present he has progressed quickly in a positive light. I agree that he does not have the experience that McCain has, nor is he older than Ga red clay, but what does do is listen----analyze-----listen----research-----analyze-----decide.

For instance, he was all for pulling out of the war immediately, then he stated a timeline, then that timeline changed. You say filp flop, I say he listened and got more insight and advice. Bottom line, he is willing to listen and not fly off the handle and screw America.

Double standard, I COMPLETELY AGREE! I criticize BOTH, but in constructive manner. I know that many african americans are voting for him b/c he is black, just like many whites are not viting for him b/c he is black. I was responding to the post, not just slamming whites. No one should be let off the hook for voting on someones color.

....and RACE plays a big part, VERY BIG!!!

Funny thing is i agree with you, i really dont think a 70 year old white guy represents ME.

Kinda why i hate our political system cause at the end of the day, it really doesnt matter WHAT they say.

[AirMax95]

Funny thing is i agree with you, i really dont think a 70 year old white guy represents ME.

Kinda why i hate our political system cause at the end of the day, it really doesnt matter WHAT they say.

Mike we agree on a lot of stuff, lol.

Old people are cool, but they get really stubborn after 60 :lmfao:

[Total_Blender]

Other than that the economy is NOT BUSHs fault.

1.) tax cuts for the rich (working class who spend most of their income have largest portion of tax burden)

2.) expensive, un-necassary war

3.) massive foreign debt (to pay for un-necessary war)

4.) de-regulation of energy market causing rampant speculation of fuel prices (all fuels, not just gas)

[Vteckidd]

1.) tax cuts for the rich (working class who spend most of their income have largest portion of tax burden)


Im sorry but the Wealthy are what keep the economy going not joe schmoe . The wealthy should get Tax Breaks, to keep them invested in our economy and our infrastructure.

But the middle class get a great deal if they have kids, whats it like $3000 per kid per year now?

Proportionally the Rich have alot of taxes taken out.

My father makes over 300K a year, an last year he paid $82,000 in taxes. Its to the point now that if he gets another raise, its almost not worth it cause he will jump into another tax bracket and even more will be taken out.

[SLOWLYbtngU]

I guess if my car brakes down it is the presidents fault too. :rolleyes:

:yes: :lmfao: That is who I blame! If I stub my toe on my couch, it's Bush's fault!!!! :yes:

[4dmin]

Im sorry but the Wealthy are what keep the economy going not joe schmoe . The wealthy should get Tax Breaks, to keep them invested in our economy and our infrastructure.

But the middle class get a great deal if they have kids, whats it like $3000 per kid per year now?

Proportionally the Rich have alot of taxes taken out.

My father makes over 300K a year, an last year he paid $82,000 in taxes. Its to the point now that if he gets another raise, its almost not worth it cause he will jump into another tax bracket and even more will be taken out.

but your father is pushing up into the top 5% bracket which makes over 250k which pays the most taxes b/c they make the most, but again they are tons of tax breaks once you are up into that market. how many CEO drive FREE cars or live in FREE houses due to corp America tax system? so in the end the guy making 1 mil a year isn't having to live off of 1 mil salary more like 1/2 that.

no look at the majority of America who is making well under 100k why would they care about a guy making 300k which is almost 8x national family income. it will always come back to misuse of tax dollars. do you know how much healthcare, food, energy, 700+ billion dollars buys? with the money spent on the war we could of not had 1 person in the US go hungry or w/o heat.

[EJ25RUN]

i like how people keep calling it an unnecessary war. :rolleyes:

[4dmin]

i like how people keep calling it an unnecessary war. :rolleyes:

um Iraq was totally unnecessary. we went to war w/ a country b/c of lies there was no connection between 911 and Iraq. that's why the story changed numerous times WMD, to help free people of Iraq, etc. we as a whole are no better off now as we were when Saddam was in power.

i love people who try to justify bush's war to turn an eye from the US's current situation.

[Total_Blender]

i like how people keep calling it an unnecessary war. :rolleyes:

Perhaps I should clarify... it was unnecessary when we started it in 2003. Saddam Hussein posed neither a long term nor a short term threat to our national security. Afghanistan, yes.... Iraq... not so much. :screwy:

Either way we owe our buddies in China who are financing this fiasco a boat-load of money.:crazy:

[Vteckidd]

Im kinda mixed on IRAQ. At the time, it was a good idea imo and this is why.

We were coming off 9/11 the biggest terror attack in history on US Soil. Now, that was a wake up call that the Clinton Era failed to secure our borders and failed to stop the posing threat of terrorism.

We get attacked and now we start panicking looking for "who is going to be next".

We settle on Iraq. Here is a country in a region that is plagued with people that are very outspoken about our destruction and israels destruction. This is a region that lets face it represents the majority of the people that attacked us on 9/11.

Iran was too powerfull for us to go after, not without the possibility of a nuclear war, Afghanistan is a country of nothing but guerillas, we werent going to go after the saudis, etc.

So enter IRAQ, a country we were just 10-12 years past a war. A country that DEFIED the UN for 12 years, a country that had a horrible dictator that committed mass genocide an ethnic cleansing.

A country that was not a REAL thread, but a threat none the less. We didnt have to worry about IRAQ coming after us, we had to worry about IRAQ helping , training, funding other people in the region, like Iran. Or providing safe haven for Bin Laden, Taliban, other terrorists etc.

The WMD were never found, but there was CREDIBLE intelligience to suggest there were some there at one time, and that they were moved long before we got there. There was also nerve gas and other chemical agents found in Iraq, just no Nukes.

I think AT THE TIME, we were in a "stop terrorism before it happens" mode and Iraq provided

1) A country we could really take over and change
2) A country that was due for its ass to get kicked
3) A country that was closest to providing a DEMOCRATIC Society in the region that with hopes would spread to other nations eventually.
4) Could prove to be a valuable ally in the future

Unfortunetly i think they misunderstood the insurgents and guerilla warfare aspect and thats where we are now. But the surge is working, there is ALOT less violence now, and it seems the country will be on its own in the next 2-5 years. Question is, will it stay democratic? or will this all be for nothing. We DONT KNOW YET.

[4dmin]

no matter the reason we were lied to so America would support the attack on Iraq - republicans/democrats both fell into the trap of lies created by Bush and the White House.

our security previous to 911 was nothing to do w/ Clinton but a lack of security put forth by the gov't set to protect us. I remember back late 90's going to visit my brother in TX at Fort Hood which is one of the largest military bases in the world (they even have a little iraq city) but we were able to drive right on the base and sit in tanks, helicopters, etc w/o having to got through a single check point ;)

[EJ25RUN]

um Iraq was totally unnecessary.

And Afghanistan?

[Vteckidd]

no matter the reason we were lied to so America would support the attack on Iraq - republicans/democrats both fell into the trap of lies created by Bush and the White House.

our security previous to 911 was nothing to do w/ Clinton but a lack of security put forth by the gov't set to protect us. I remember back late 90's going to visit my brother in TX at Fort Hood which is one of the largest military bases in the world (they even have a little iraq city) but we were able to drive right on the base and sit in tanks, helicopters, etc w/o having to got through a single check point ;)

Ehh its no the first time we were lied to "I AM NOT A CROOK
;)

Im not sold it was an outright LIE, rather more of an overexaggeration of what we were expecting to find.

Clinton let terrorism FLURISH while he was in office. He did little to nothing to contain or attack it. Clinton had about 4 opportunities to take Bin Laden out and he decided to watch football instead. This after the USS Cole was attacked and our embassies blown up.

Because of Clintons downsizing on the military and complete turning of his back to the outside world, terrorist states were left unchecked.

That my friend is FACT.

Read Deriliction of Duty, its a book by the guy that carried the NUCLEAR FOOTBALL for CLINTON for 2 years. Pretty interesting stuff.

Clinton was a big a bumbling idiot as Bush is, Clinton was just a smooth talker, Bush isnt. I feel the same way about Obama.

[4dmin]

And Afghanistan?

here is my take on war in general. there is no such thing as nice war so trying to be diplomatic is out of the question - Japan ring a bell!

that's what should of been done to the regions of Afghanistan that were providing support for terrorist linked to 911.

either way it doesn't matter b/c Afghanistan has failed - the US is trying to fight a ghost operation not a gov't - that is why iraq is completely different and why they had to lie to us to get the support.

overall we are no safer now as we were in 911 so was it justified was it worth it... NO.

[Vteckidd]

i dont think we are SAFER, but i think they are less likely to attack, if that makes sense.

[4dmin]

Ehh its no the first time we were lied to "I AM NOT A CROOK
;)

Im not sold it was an outright LIE, rather more of an overexaggeration of what we were expecting to find.

Clinton let terrorism FLURISH while he was in office. He did little to nothing to contain or attack it. Clinton had about 4 opportunities to take Bin Laden out and he decided to watch football instead. This after the USS Cole was attacked and our embassies blown up.

Because of Clintons downsizing on the military and complete turning of his back to the outside world, terrorist states were left unchecked.

That my friend is FACT.

Read Deriliction of Duty, its a book by the guy that carried the NUCLEAR FOOTBALL for CLINTON for 2 years. Pretty interesting stuff.

Clinton was a big a bumbling idiot as Bush is, Clinton was just a smooth talker, Bush isnt. I feel the same way about Obama.

you gotta go further back then Clinton this **** started back in 70s when were we supplying terrorist w/ weapons then turning our backs on them at the same time. we have played both sides to this situation that is why we are now in the ****. we should keep our nose out of regions issues unless it will directly affect us. mexico thats a good place for us to start focusing borders anyone? and of course now bush has got us in tizzy w/ russia - cold war anyone?

[EJ25RUN]

here is my take on war in general. there is no such thing as nice war so trying to be diplomatic is out of the question - Japan ring a bell!

that's what should of been done to the regions of Afghanistan that were providing support for terrorist linked to 911.

either way it doesn't matter b/c Afghanistan has failed - the US is trying to fight a ghost operation not a gov't - that is why iraq is completely different and why they had to lie to us to get the support.

overall we are no safer now as we were in 911 so was it justified was it worth it... NO.
I disagee

[Total_Blender]

And Afghanistan?

As far as going after OBL (Bin Laden) yeah, that was and still is necessary. But I think a full scale invasion might have been more than was necessary. Kinda like going deer hunting with a tank batallion. Had we taken a more discreet course and sent some Special Forces in and not let him know we were coming... :crazy:

A lot of people are under the misconception that Western style democracy is what the Middle East needs. But theres no cultural or historical basis for it in a lot of those countries. If/when we come in and force it on them it could (and probably will) spell disaster unless they are ready/willing to adopt it. The insurgents are not necessarily fighting because they "hate America" or because they "support terrorism," I am sure a lot of them are fighting against what they believe to be Western imperialism. Much of it also comes from the general lawlessness of the post-Saddam/Baath power vacuum. You have a weak local government and local warlords who have risen to power after the occupation now fighting to hold/increase their power.

The people who are "outspoken about our destruction" don't represent the majority of the citizenry over there. They are just the loudmouths that manage to get all the attention. If you got all your information about America from Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell (RIP) you'd probably think it was a F'ed up place.

[AirMax95]

We should have sent afghanistan this:


What the world needs now is love, sweet love
It's the only thing that there's just too little of
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No not just for some but for everyone.

and if they didn't get the point, this:

http://philip9876.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/nuclear-explosion.jpg

[4dmin]

We should have sent afghanistan this:



and if they didn't get the point, this:

http://philip9876.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/nuclear-explosion.jpg

:cheers: dayum straight - kinda hard to fight a war w/ a country if there isn't anyone to fight it. if we did that it would send a nice message DON'T F*CK W/ UNCLE SAM

http://bztv.typepad.com/newsviews/images/uncle_sam_flexes.gif

[EG6]

At least with Mcain you KNOW you are going to have a similar 4 years as bush, similar policy, etc. With Obama no one has a CLUE what is going to happen. The future is uncertain, and to the CORE group of voters (lower to upper middle class white voters), they arent hearing what they want to hear.



Not trying to turn this into an arguement (which most discussions about politics turn into) but you say we will have a similar 4 years if Mccain was president. What has been so good and impressive that most people could say they wouldn't mind enduring another 4 years of?

[4dmin]

Not trying to turn this into an arguement (which most discussions about politics turn into) but you say we will have a similar 4 years if Mccain was president. What has been so good and impressive that most people could say they wouldn't mind enduring another 4 years of?

excellent post - hopefully you'll get a good answer that has nothing to do w/ obama. :rolleyes:

[Alan®]

Im sorry but the Wealthy are what keep the economy going not joe schmoe . The wealthy should get Tax Breaks, to keep them invested in our economy and our infrastructure.

But the middle class get a great deal if they have kids, whats it like $3000 per kid per year now?

Proportionally the Rich have alot of taxes taken out.

My father makes over 300K a year, an last year he paid $82,000 in taxes. Its to the point now that if he gets another raise, its almost not worth it cause he will jump into another tax bracket and even more will be taken out.
Thank you lord I'm so glad someone finally see's what I have been talking about all along. :goodjob: Reps to you my good sir.

[Alan®]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mr. KiDD again.

[blaknoize]

Actually i blame Hillary supporters on being insane. I mean that the refurse to not have Hillary in office. Seriously, they really were expecting Obama to choose her :blah: . Anyways, no, they are all pmsing that she is out of the white house and just want to piss people off. Yes, this is free votes for McCain.

Thats women though... as we all know. Confusing babble about nothing but double-negatives.

[Sport1.3]

actually what i don't understand is the current focus on Hillary supporters... you have to be kidding me that people would jump ship to McCain from Hillary. That is like believing in God and now worshiping Satan :thinking: Don't make since(lol).



because they are ready for a woman to be president.......but not a black man :lmfao:

[Alan®]

you gotta go further back then Clinton this **** started back in 70s when were we supplying terrorist w/ weapons then turning our backs on them at the same time. we have played both sides to this situation that is why we are now in the ****. we should keep our nose out of regions issues unless it will directly affect us. mexico thats a good place for us to start focusing borders anyone? and of course now bush has got us in tizzy w/ russia - cold war anyone?
Really when you get down to it 9/11 was our own fault and if you want to pin it down to one guy that man is Jimmy Carter. I wrote a paper for one of my English classes last year.


On July 3rd, 1979 President Carter signed an order to secretly aid the Afghanistan Rebel’s to push out the Russian’s(Intervention). In an interview ten years ago the then head of the CIA was asked if he regretted supporting Islamic Radicalists to which he responded “What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?” (Intervention).

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

[4dmin]

Really when you get down to it 9/11 was our own fault and if you want to pin it down to one guy that man is Jimmy Carter. I wrote a paper for one of my English classes last year.



http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html

no i agree that's why i said the date range anyone who is a bush supporter try's to play it off as Clintons problem

[tony]

Really when you get down to it 9/11 was our own fault and if you want to pin it down to one guy that man is Jimmy Carter. I wrote a paper for one of my English classes last year.



http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html


Did you read your very own post? You say Jimmy Carter is to blame for a CIA operation, if that is the case we can directly blame George Bush for the false intelligence gathered by the CIA in the case of Iraq.

Furthermore the Taliban didn't officially form until the early 90's, Carter's presidency ended in 81.

[Vteckidd]

Not trying to turn this into an arguement (which most discussions about politics turn into) but you say we will have a similar 4 years if Mccain was president. What has been so good and impressive that most people could say they wouldn't mind enduring another 4 years of?
No arguement here, i welcome anyone that wants to participate in a discussion.

Its politics, no one is right and no one is wrong. Its nice just having a good civil debate for once :)

IMO, whats been so wrong with the last 4 years has been what i posted before.

People complain that the economy and job market sucks, the dollar is weaker etc. IMO it has nothing to do with Bush and everything to do with the Housing market, Corporations pushing jobs overseas, illegal immigration, etc.

But then paul made a good point about how we spend billions a month in Iraq. Which you cannot ignore, it is a big piece of pie.

Although im not one for social programs (within reason) i think we should be focusing on helping small business grow and alternative fuels.

Its pretty commonplace that the Democrats are all for helping the helpless, and the Republicans are for helping small and big business.

Democrats are more socialist IMO and that doesnt sit right with me.

I think the next 4 years will be fine as long as:
1) THe housing crisis ends (which Bush took steps to do so)

2) We get SERIOUS about alternative fuels and drilling

3) The war in Iraq closes in the next 2 years

4) Something is done about illegal immigration

5) Tax cuts to the middle class are fine, but i think the "rich" are fine the way they are now.

[tony]

Thank you lord I'm so glad someone finally see's what I have been talking about all along. :goodjob: Reps to you my good sir.


If the economy can't run without the rich but the rich get wealthy on the back of Joe Schmoe who really has control?

Trust me.. nobody gets wealthy on their own in this country. Please don't act like the wealthy are the lifeline to the economy because this nation would surely survive with a strong middle class.. it cannot thrive on a few rich people.

[Vteckidd]

Did you read your very own post? You say Jimmy Carter is to blame for a CIA operation, if that is the case we can directly blame George Bush for the false intelligence gathered by the CIA in the case of Iraq.

Furthermore the Taliban didn't officially form until the early 90's, Carter's presidency ended in 81.

Correct.

I mean we have a history of helping people that end up being our enemies.

Iran-Contra
Afghanistan
Iraq
Theres tons others. IIRC WE SUPPLIED weapons to Iraq to keep Iran from taking them over. Lotta good that did us LOL

I do agree with the "lets take care of ourselves" attitude because i think too often we get involved with stuff we shouldnt be involved with.

Clinton had us all over the globe doing peacekeeping missions our military was never designed for. Kosovo, Somalia, etc

**** this im running for president

[Vteckidd]

Trust me.. nobody gets wealthy on their own in this country. Please don't act like the wealthy are the lifeline to the economy because this nation would surely survive with a strong middle class.. it cannot thrive on a few rich people.

You just made an EXCELLENT point without knowing it.

So if the "now rich" made it on their own, did well for themselves, built a business etc, now you think we should tax the **** out of them and give it back to Joe Schmoe?

Im sorry i totally disagree with that. Im all for tax cuts to true middle class families WITHIN REASON that are trying to put food on the table etc. But the Dems approach of just gutting the wealthy is LUDICROUS.

They SPEND THE MOST MONEY, THEY SHOULD GET TO KEEP THE MOST. Its a really simple concept.

What you aare describing is a communist society where everyone is middle class.

Look how great that worked out ;)

[Alan®]

Did you read your very own post? You say Jimmy Carter is to blame for a CIA operation, if that is the case we can directly blame George Bush for the false intelligence gathered by the CIA in the case of Iraq.

Furthermore the Taliban didn't officially form until the early 90's, Carter's presidency ended in 81.
He's to blame because he signed off on it.

[tony]

Clinton had us all over the globe doing peacekeeping missions our military was never designed for. Kosovo, Somalia, etc

**** this im running for president

And a half assed job of it at that




You just made an EXCELLENT point without knowing it.

So if the "now rich" made it on their own, did well for themselves, built a business etc, now you think we should tax the **** out of them and give it back to Joe Schmoe?

Im sorry i totally disagree with that. Im all for tax cuts to true middle class families WITHIN REASON that are trying to put food on the table etc. But the Dems approach of just gutting the wealthy is LUDICROUS.

They SPEND THE MOST MONEY, THEY SHOULD GET TO KEEP THE MOST. Its a really simple concept.

What you aare describing is a communist society where everyone is middle class.

Look how great that worked out ;)

A strong middle class is not Communism, a strong middle class does not eliminate private property. Trickle down Economics is nothing more than a theory that puts our country in in debt to countries that are based on Communist theories.

This country and even the rich would benefit greatly from a larger middle class.

[Alan®]

If the economy can't run without the rich but the rich get wealthy on the back of Joe Schmoe who really has control?

Trust me.. nobody gets wealthy on their own in this country. Please don't act like the wealthy are the lifeline to the economy because this nation would surely survive with a strong middle class.. it cannot thrive on a few rich people.
Nobody get's wealthy on their own? Ok My dad's parents didn't have the kind of money it took to send him to a good school so he busted ass got into west point served 10 years acitive duty, 5 years reserve, Got out went to Georgia Tech, Worked his way up the corporate ladder than got everything pulled out from underneath him at once. He lost his job shortly after 9/11 and was going through a divorce with my mom. So what did he do? Started his own company and now makes a **** ton of money every year.

[tony]

He's to blame because he signed off on it.

If an extremist faction of Georgia broke off and attacked the U.S you realize this situation would be no different right?

Afghanistan was an ally fighting a known enemy of the U.S, Carter would have been heavily criticized for not authorizing it.

[tony]

Nobody get's wealthy on their own? Ok My dad's parents didn't have the kind of money it took to send him to a good school so he busted ass got into west point served 10 years acitive duty, 5 years reserve, Got out went to Georgia Tech, Worked his way up the corporate ladder than got everything pulled out from underneath him at once. He lost his job shortly after 9/11 and was going through a divorce with my mom. So what did he do? Started his own company and now makes a **** ton of money every year.

Who spent their money with your dad? Or did he print his own money? He has employees right? Customers.. again, NOBODY gets wealthy on their own, especially without joe schmoe Your dad is no exception, sorry to disappoint you.

[Alan®]

If an extremist faction of Georgia broke off and attacked the U.S you realize this situation would be no different right?

Afghanistan was an ally fighting a known enemy of the U.S, Carter would have been heavily criticized for not authorizing it.
Did you bother to read the full story?


Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs ["From the Shadows"], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.


The man instigated it.

[Alan®]

Who spent their money with your dad? Or did he print his own money? He has employees right? Customers.. again, NOBODY gets wealthy on their own, especially without joe schmoe Your dad is no exception, sorry to disappoint you.
You're right. I guess I didn't quite understand what you meant fully. One of the main reasons I want to go work for him at this point is he allows his employees to keep a big chunk of what they bring in. Having worked a lot of crappy job to me that sounds pretty good.

[Vteckidd]

Everyone makes good points in this thread, however alot of us differ on policy.

[EJ25RUN]

Who spent their money with your dad? Or did he print his own money? He has employees right? Customers.. again, NOBODY gets wealthy on their own, especially without joe schmoe Your dad is no exception, sorry to disappoint you.

Sounds to me your blaming capitalism without calling it that.

[4dmin]

I just saw an interesting story on China working in the Sudan(i think it was the Sudan) - they gave the Sudan like 8 billion dollars for construction to help build their infrastructure: schools, roads, hospitals, etc. under the terms that any contractor they have do the work must be a Chinese company. many Chinese are there working as well as providing jobs, economic growth to the Sudan people. This is what is wrong with the US. We would of just given them 8 billion in aid that wouldn't of accomplished anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_public_debt

^ here is some good reading if anyone would like to see how well we are doing

[tony]

You're right. I guess I didn't quite understand what you meant fully. One of the main reasons I want to go work for him at this point is he allows his employees to keep a big chunk of what they bring in. Having worked a lot of crappy job to me that sounds pretty good.


Dont get me wrong, I love the entrepreneurial spirit.. that to me is the backbone of this country. Its just that I think the importance of the average joe, the teacher.. the firefighter, people like that often get overlooked.

To have a higher class and lower class.. the haves and the have nots is certainly not the way you want us to be.

Capitalism isn't so great to me like it once was. At some point I believe profits are put over the good of the people, and I'm not talking about entrepreneurs like RedGT's father.. I'm talking about companies like Shell Oil, AT&T, huge corporations with lobbyists to affect Washington's agenda. When phone companies can retain immunity for illegal wire taps, releasing your personal information to the government without your consent, yes, capitalism has failed us.

[Alan®]

. When phone companies can retain immunity for illegal wire taps, releasing your personal information to the government without your consent, yes, capitalism has failed us.
I actually wasn't against this.

[Total_Blender]

In the spring of '09 it is predicted that the US National Debt clock in Times Square will be obsolete. The reason? Not enough digits.

[tony]

I actually wasn't against this.

Why and I have to ask what do you think of the 4th amendment?

[EG6]

No arguement here, i welcome anyone that wants to participate in a discussion.

Its politics, no one is right and no one is wrong. Its nice just having a good civil debate for once :)

IMO, whats been so wrong with the last 4 years has been what i posted before.

People complain that the economy and job market sucks, the dollar is weaker etc. IMO it has nothing to do with Bush and everything to do with the Housing market, Corporations pushing jobs overseas, illegal immigration, etc.

But then paul made a good point about how we spend billions a month in Iraq. Which you cannot ignore, it is a big piece of pie.

Although im not one for social programs (within reason) i think we should be focusing on helping small business grow and alternative fuels.

Its pretty commonplace that the Democrats are all for helping the helpless, and the Republicans are for helping small and big business.

Democrats are more socialist IMO and that doesnt sit right with me.

I think the next 4 years will be fine as long as:
1) THe housing crisis ends (which Bush took steps to do so)

2) We get SERIOUS about alternative fuels and drilling

3) The war in Iraq closes in the next 2 years

4) Something is done about illegal immigration

5) Tax cuts to the middle class are fine, but i think the "rich" are fine the way they are now.


I don't think my question was answered in it's entirety; I could have been unclear when I was writing (this is the internet).

You told me what was wrong with the past few years Bush was in office; I was asking what was so great about the years. How did the economy improve, peoples living habits and lifestyles.

Think about 8 years ago, I wasn't that old but I can almost certianly say that people weren't selling life and limb to put food on the table. They had a special on CNN a few weeks ago saying how Ebay, Craigslist and all these other "flea market" websites have had double the traffic and double the sales they've had in the past few years. With alot of people selling family heirlooms that have been in their family for generations. Times are hard and I don't think there's any doubt about that.

[EG6]

In the spring of '09 it is predicted that the US National Debt clock in Times Square will be obsolete. The reason? Not enough digits.

Thats a damn shame...

[EJ25RUN]

Dont get me wrong, I love the entrepreneurial spirit.. that to me is the backbone of this country. Its just that I think the importance of the average joe, the teacher.. the firefighter, people like that often get overlooked.

To have a higher class and lower class.. the haves and the have nots is certainly not the way you want us to be.

Capitalism isn't so great to me like it once was. At some point I believe profits are put over the good of the people, and I'm not talking about entrepreneurs like RedGT's father.. I'm talking about companies like Shell Oil, AT&T, huge corporations with lobbyists to affect Washington's agenda. When phone companies can retain immunity for illegal wire taps, releasing your personal information to the government without your consent, yes, capitalism has failed us.

No it hasn't. Capitalism is a system to make money and is true free enterprise. It has nothing to do with people that didn't make as much as the next guy.

This why taxing oil companies and giving the money back to us is such a terrible idea.

How? The ethics behind taxing a single type of business for being profitable.

Tony, your pretty good on your posts but i have learned in my years that capitalism and ethics don't always mix.

Put yourself in a position of an oil executive. Your rivals are making ridiculous money and the people above you demand to see similar profits. In this capitalism system you make it happen or your out of a job.

You do realize that helping the man at the bottom just cause we are supposed to is something communism teaches. And i would know, i was born into it.

[Vteckidd]

FYI my mother is a teacher, she works 60 hours a week and makes 1/8th what my father makes.

So i know how it is on both sides.

Im all for the Teacher, Firefighter, POlice making more money, but not at the expense of the Rich being taxed to hell and back.

Whats the incentive to make money if you know once you cross that $100,000 barrier it really doesnt matter because all your money goes back to uncle sam?

[Alan®]

Why and I have to ask what do you think of the 4th amendment?
To me safety comes first. I think that the common misconception with what they are doing is that there is a guy in a room listening to all the phone calls in the country and that is simply not the case. If you have seen the beginning of the bourne ultimatum it's really something more along those lines.

As far as the fourth amendmant goes........


The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

If you really get down and scrutinize the 4th amendment and you really want to get technical the way I interprit it is in relation to physical possessions. Just because you place a phone call doesn't mean that you physically own it that it's yours. And so long as there aren't guys interjecting themselves into the conversations you would really never know. And if you aren't doing anything wrong there is no reason to feel insecure.

[EJ25RUN]

FYI my mother is a teacher, she works 60 hours a week and makes 1/8th what my father makes.

So i know how it is on both sides.

Im all for the Teacher, Firefighter, POlice making more money, but not at the expense of the Rich being taxed to hell and back.

Whats the incentive to make money if you know once you cross that $100,000 barrier it really doesnt matter because all your money goes back to uncle sam?

Same reason i at 20 got to the point where i didn't want to go into a higher tax bracket.

Out of school with no dependents....that adds up great for me. :rolleyes:

[Alan®]

FYI my mother is a teacher, she works 60 hours a week and makes 1/8th what my father makes.

So i know how it is on both sides.

Im all for the Teacher, Firefighter, POlice making more money, but not at the expense of the Rich being taxed to hell and back.

Whats the incentive to make money if you know once you cross that $100,000 barrier it really doesnt matter because all your money goes back to uncle sam?
X2

[tony]

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

See bolded, safety is all well and good when it is LEGAL. Sorry, don't care to be wiretapped in the name of safety. What other rights are you willing to give up in the name of safety?

[tony]

To anyone here arguing against Communism here, was Karl Marx's theory completely useless?

[Alan®]

See bolded, safety is all well and good when it is LEGAL. Sorry, don't care to be wiretapped in the name of safety. What other rights are you willing to give up in the name of safety?
See the problem with what you said is that the key word with that phrase is unreasonable. In a time when we have no clear picture as to what the enemy looks like, I have no problem with them listening in on my phone calls.

[tony]

See the problem with what you said is that the key word with that phrase is unreasonable. In a time when we have no clear picture as to what the enemy looks like, I have no problem with them listening in on my phone calls.

I don't see how you can make that statement and condemn Communism in the next post. What you've explained here is exactly what we are talking about, giving up your rights to the government.

[EJ25RUN]

To anyone here arguing against Communism here, was Karl Marx's theory completely useless?

Wow...so your saying we should grab ideals for communism......Chinas on the other side of the world if you are that tired living over here. I say rule communism out totally. In a way that's why i believe in the fair tax. Sharing wealth is like communism to me.

[Alan®]

I don't see how you can make that statement and condemn Communism in the next post. What you've explained here is exactly what we are talking about, giving up your rights to the government.
I really see no difference between this and allowing concealed guns in public places(which I also support). Do you honestly think you would ever know if the government was listening to your call? Chances are 1.) You wouldn't and 2.) They aren't. So long as they are not intruding on my life, I really don't care.

[blaknoize]

Well I SURE dont like the government tinkering in my business regardless. Whether its "bothering" me or not. It shouldnt even be considered. In my privacy because u WANT TO BE, just incase. BS!!

[stephen]

Wow...so your saying we should grab ideals for communism......Chinas on the other side of the world if you are that tired living over here. I say rule communism out totally. In a way that's why i believe in the fair tax. Sharing wealth is like communism to me.

i'm going to go out on a limb and try to give tony a little help on this. i don't think it's all about "steal from the rich, and give to the poor." the issues with the "rich" and their taxes, has a lot to do with what it takes to stay rich. when it comes down to it...the wealthier you get, the more of an asset you are to our government. our government views success, power, and wealth waaaaaay differntly than the common man. the way of the government is "dog eat dog," point blank. a perfect example is all that stuff Delta went through. my mother went from making over $100k a year, to $65k in a matter of months. she had the opportunity to take a severence package, that would've been IMPOSSIBLE to live off of, and yet there were high up executives being offered packages of more money than they were making...in the millions! lol, here you have a company that filed bankrupt, cut down their employees salary by 30-40% in some cases, and yet...you still have executives that're able to walk away with millions in their pockets? these same executives were able to maintain their company's success for so long, due to hard working people like my mom. lol, and now those same people want a tax break!?! now you have someone who has a family to maintain, and who has to dip into their retirement money just to make ends meet. sh.i.t, there's a dude who works at the publix up the street from me...he's in his 60s, RETIRED from some other job, and still has to work a part time gig at a grocery store just to survive.

it's situations like that, that make people want to tax the hell out of rich folks, and spare the more abundant middle class people (who work hard for some of the rich people)....goes back to the "dog eat dog" mentality. personally, i feel like income taxes are illegal ANYWAY. being forced to give money to the government because you worked for it...while you're still giving money to them when you buy goods, just seems unfair TO EVERYONE. i understand it helps to sustain the nation's economy, but it still just sounds so wrong. i don't think it matters who the government taxes (rich or middle class), it's still the people's money, and should to help better us...not some other country's people, or like mccain said "$3million to fund bear DNA research." lol, that's probably the only thing he's said, that i like!

[Vteckidd]

if you have nothing to hide then wiretapping is a non issue IMO.

If it helps stop terrorism, then im all for it.

Personally, i dont see Big Brother wire tapping and going adter people for the wrong reasons. Seems like its done a lot of good rather than bad.

IMO

[BB6dohcvtec]

if you have nothing to hide then wiretapping is a non issue IMO.

If it helps stop terrorism, then im all for it.

Personally, i dont see Big Brother wire tapping and going adter people for the wrong reasons. Seems like its done a lot of good rather than bad.

IMO

yea and it also leads to alot of false accusations/arrest....once proven turns into lawsuit costing the gov't oh i mean us alot of money. i'm all for wiretapping but make sure before making premature accusations, which we don't do.

[EJ25RUN]

i'm going to go out on a limb and try to give tony a little help on this. i don't think it's all about "steal from the rich, and give to the poor." the issues with the "rich" and their taxes, has a lot to do with what it takes to stay rich. when it comes down to it...the wealthier you get, the more of an asset you are to our government. our government views success, power, and wealth waaaaaay differntly than the common man. the way of the government is "dog eat dog," point blank. a perfect example is all that stuff Delta went through. my mother went from making over $100k a year, to $65k in a matter of months. she had the opportunity to take a severence package, that would've been IMPOSSIBLE to live off of, and yet there were high up executives being offered packages of more money than they were making...in the millions! lol, here you have a company that filed bankrupt, cut down their employees salary by 30-40% in some cases, and yet...you still have executives that're able to walk away with millions in their pockets? these same executives were able to maintain their company's success for so long, due to hard working people like my mom. lol, and now those same people want a tax break!?! now you have someone who has a family to maintain, and who has to dip into their retirement money just to make ends meet. sh.i.t, there's a dude who works at the publix up the street from me...he's in his 60s, RETIRED from some other job, and still has to work a part time gig at a grocery store just to survive.

it's situations like that, that make people want to tax the hell out of rich folks, and spare the more abundant middle class people (who work hard for some of the rich people)....goes back to the "dog eat dog" mentality. personally, i feel like income taxes are illegal ANYWAY. being forced to give money to the government because you worked for it...while you're still giving money to them when you buy goods, just seems unfair TO EVERYONE. i understand it helps to sustain the nation's economy, but it still just sounds so wrong. i don't think it matters who the government taxes (rich or middle class), it's still the people's money, and should to help better us...not some other country's people, or like mccain said "$3million to fund bear DNA research." lol, that's probably the only thing he's said, that i like!


What did your mother due at delta if you don't mind?

I ask because i plan to attend a Delta sponsored school withing the next year.

[BanginJimmy]

The Hilary supporters are leaving mainly b/c of Obama's color, point blank and period. Yes, they did not have similar views on a lot of topics, but I don't see how they justify hopping on McCain's side for that reason alone. I hate to pull the color card, but it is what it is :(

And this is why Obama is turning white voters away. He was very quick to drop the race card and its backfiring on him. If Obama never mentions race again he has a chance, if he keeps spouting it off then he doesnt have a prayer.

[BanginJimmy]

Mike, I respect your points, but everyone knows that change is the hardest thing to accept. Of course we don't know what is going to "happen" with Obama's said "change". It is a risk that needs to be taken to see the picture. I do agree that is is uncertain.


So you really want someone to change the best country in the world, but not even give a slight clue as to how he plans on doing it? I honestly dont think I have ever heard a more retarded statement in my life.

[BanginJimmy]

Completely understood. I followed Obama when he was in Chicago, I see how he worked there. I personally feel that we need a change in that someone who is more down to earth with the poeple of this country, not just the "well to do" and wealthy.

well this throws out Obama/Biden then. Remember when he said that middle class Americans were bitter and clinging to their guns and religion?



It may be hard to grasp, but they guy knows his stuff. He has a record of pulling together a team to work seamlessly for the common good.

Organizing a church is alot different than a country. Also I am from the southside of Chicago, and Obama didnt make a whole lot of changes for the better around my parts. (lived on 71st and State for about 5 months before I left for the Corps)




He has not demonstrated a personal agenda, no record of screwing up,

Actually he has demonstrated a lack of judgement, a quick temper, and the inability to judge character (how many times have we heard "This is not the ______ I knew"?)



and from 1997 to the present he has progressed quickly in a positive light.

what exactly has he done from 97 to present?



but what does do is listen----analyze-----listen----research-----analyze-----decide.

actually his history has shown that he votes "present". He has also shown he has no opinion on controversial subjects. Abortion comes to mind first and his sidestep of the question at Saddleback.



For instance, he was all for pulling out of the war immediately, then he stated a timeline, then that timeline changed. You say filp flop, I say he listened and got more insight and advice.

I agree with you here. I see this in much the same light a McCain voting against the Bush tax cuts, then after he saw it working, he voted for re-upping them.



know that many african americans are voting for him b/c he is black, just like many whites are not viting for him b/c he is black.

I am willing to bet the life savings that the number of blacks voting for him because he is black doubles the number of whites voting for McCain because Obama is black. The only people mentioning race in this election are the media and Obama. Not a single republican has made the slightest comment about him being black outside of a retort to one of his comments.




....and RACE plays a big part, VERY BIG!!!


The only ones mentioning race are from Obama's campaign.

[DevilK9]

Wow, this has been an interesting read. I have to say, seeing both sides of many issues is rather enlightening. However...

1) Yes, the President will not change anything by himself. Remember that you are not electing a president, you are electing his cabinet and his colleagues. Follow the money.

2) Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. So please...please...please...for heaven's f/cking sake....please...quit trying to give this useless war any indirect meaning through such an equally horrific event. We had no business going in. We did. We were wrong. Let's fix our mistake . . .and get the F?CK OUT!

3) The wealthy aren't wealthy because they're the ones who spend the most money. They're wealthy because they're the ones who have figured out how to spend the money of less wealthy people to make themselves some money. It takes money to make money...not necessarily yours. So debate your concerns over tax reform on a more universally accepted foundation....you are what you eat.

4) 9/11 was not the fault of a Clintonian era of politics. 9/11 was the fault of Islamic extremists who considered their faulted doctrine more important than human life, international peace, or ethical superiority. The war in Iraq has not made us safer, nor has it postponed a terrorist act. The two are unrelated. The phrase, "It must be working because we haven't been attacked since 9/11" is absolutely ignorant. That's just like saying. "I must be a good driver because I haven't been in a wreck since my last one." It is simply stating a period of no incident, not the assurance of no future calamity. They're marketing themselves and their plan for this country to all of us, and damnit we keep drinking the f&cking koolaid.

5) I don't fully agree with Communism, but to say that it's original foundations (not those currently practiced in places like Cuba and China) have no validity is ignorant. For instance, we've all used and heard the phrase - a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. We believe it, we live by it, and we accept it (most likely). Guess where that phrase came from? Oh sh/t!

6) When I negotiate contracts, the plan is simple. I have an agenda that I want to pay as little as I can to achieve. I can not achieve that myself. So....I have to get the other party to give up as much of their needs, desires, and/or rights in order for me to attain my goals. So....wiretapping. They want to spy on ????? and the only way they can get that is to convince us to ALLOW THEM to tap our phones. What do they tell us to convince us this is a good idea? "It'll make you safer, trust us". OK!!! GO AHEAD!!! Like brainless, f/cking idiots we go along with it. Never mind that we're giving up our core rights and national identity. What's next, mandatory housing of troops? You laugh!?!?

7) The only way either candidate isn't going to win, is if they don't get enough votes, or they can't get Congress to overturn the decision of the election to match both the electoral and popular votes. Plain and simple. Skin pigmentation won't be to blame. If black voters want to vote Obama when they go to the polls because he's black, then hell, this is America, that's their damn prerogative and right. If senile, wrinkly white folks want to go into their booths and vote for McCain because they can relate with his bladder control problems...then hell, this is America, that's their damn prerogative and right. Why does anybody care or wonder why other people vote the way they do. The answer is simple - CUZ THEY WANTED TO! That's all you need know.

8) No - the billions spent on the IRAQ war was not pulled from Congressional spending. It is new money borrowed from some pretty dark areas of the world. That story was a 2006 Talking Point on Bill O'Reilly that got completed torn to shreds by his own network. Oh snap!

9) Yes - the war in Afghanistan was a good idea. It has since become bullsh/t. I served there an it turned into a 95/5 situation. 5% searching for Al-Qaieda and Bin Laden, 95% setting up a country to our specifications. That's not cool, but I'd rather support that than a blind invasion of a sovereign country on lies, deceit and borrowed money.

10) I have no problem with the de-regulation of the energy market. Do you buy their products? Do you like the price? If no, then why do you buy their products? Do you not like it enough to boycott? If no,then why would they lower prices if you're willing to pay for it? Same as any other industry. If PopRocks went to 8 dollars a bag, your fagg0t boyfriend you meet in room 312 every Thursday afternoon would probably think twice before adding that to his Jlow Bob ritual. Wouldn't he? Yep!

11) The election to me is the same simple question it was in 2004. "Would I rather be disemboweled with a wire brush or have my genitals massaged for an hour with a chainsaw?" Both options kinda suck.

12) Kidd, according to your hopeful outcome of the next 4 years, it appears you are actually 80% for Obama!

13) I don't have 7 houses, and I didn't go to Harvard. I served in the military, and have also spent much of my time using my professional talent for charitable purposes. I've never been black, and I've never been old. I've never been divorced, and I've never been married to an attention-whore. I've always held my honor, and I've always sought after progress. Who do I like more? Dunno.

Thanks for the opportunity to express my thoughts about the issues discussed. If I offended anybody. That sucks. If I agreed with you...that doesn't make us buddies. If you want to buy me a drink...call anytime.

Thanks.

[stephen]

What did your mother due at delta if you don't mind?

I ask because i plan to attend a Delta sponsored school withing the next year.

she's a computer programmer. are you going to that delta connection academy for flight training...or something else?

[DevilK9]

the best country in the world,

I'm a patriot, but I'm also a realist. Conceit and self-proclaiming greatness doesn't exactly equal global dominance. We get that attitude from reading the Bible.

If we are so great...why does it cost twice as much for me to go to England or Scotland?

Why can't we produce our own products with our own workforce?

Why can't we balance natural resources with energy dependence?

How can Hannah f/cking Montana make a dime?

Why is our nation's capital in the most insecure spot on the continent?

Why has rap/R&B/dumb music lasted this long?

True, there are great things about this country and I consider it worth more than my life. But to say we are the best "Just cuz" doesn't make it so. We have some serious problems, and it is my love for this country that motivates me to fight for the progression of freedoms it represents even when it may seem overwhelming or impossible.

[BanginJimmy]

I'm a patriot, but I'm also a realist. Conceit and self-proclaiming greatness doesn't exactly equal global dominance. We get that attitude from reading the Bible.

It has nothing to do with global dominance of anything. Nowhere else in the world have a people been as free as in the US. England can legally for a news outlet not to run a damaging or senative story.


If we are so great...why does it cost twice as much for me to go to England or Scotland?

as to where? Canada? Mexico? Maybe because of distance.


Why can't we produce our own products with our own workforce?

since when cant we? I knwo we dont, but thats a business decision. It is cheaper for a large corporation to have products made overseas with what amounts to slave labor and shipped to the US than it is to pay US workers and the taxes on top of it. Quantity is the name of the game, not quality.


Why can't we balance natural resources with energy dependence?

the tree huggers dont want us to. 1 single nuke powerplant has the capability of replacing two outdated coal or oil plants. The startup is significantly higher for a nuke plant, but day to day expenses are MUCH lower.


How can Hannah f/cking Montana make a dime?[/quote

cause she has a nice tush

[QUOTE=DevilK9]Why has rap/R&B/dumb music lasted this long?

because people will always listen to retarded music. Remember when boy bands were everywhere?


True, there are great things about this country and I consider it worth more than my life. But to say we are the best "Just cuz" doesn't make it so. We have some serious problems, and it is my love for this country that motivates me to fight for the progression of freedoms it represents even when it may seem overwhelming or impossible.

I agree, but we still have far more freedom than 90% of the world, and a little more than the other 10%. It is impossible to balance freedom and security and politics between the parties is only making is worse.

[Alan®]

eat dog," point blank. a perfect example is all that stuff Delta went through. my mother went from making over $100k a year, to $65k in a matter of months. she had the opportunity to take a severence package, that would've been IMPOSSIBLE to live off of, and yet there were high up executives being offered packages of more money than they were making...in the millions!
see this is the problem with that line of thinking. 1st off who's business is it anyways as to what they execs are making? 2nd of all I would guarantee that almost any executive's qualifications are going to be much higher than your mom's. No disrespect but my point is this that an exec has had to work just as hard as anyone else they just made better decisions thourghout their liives to get to the point they are at.

[Alan®]

I'm a patriot, but I'm also a realist. Conceit and self-proclaiming greatness doesn't exactly equal global dominance. We get that attitude from reading the Bible.

If we are so great...why does it cost twice as much for me to go to England or Scotland?

Why can't we produce our own products with our own workforce?

Why can't we balance natural resources with energy dependence?

How can Hannah f/cking Montana make a dime?

Why is our nation's capital in the most insecure spot on the continent?

Why has rap/R&B/dumb music lasted this long?

True, there are great things about this country and I consider it worth more than my life. But to say we are the best "Just cuz" doesn't make it so. We have some serious problems, and it is my love for this country that motivates me to fight for the progression of freedoms it represents even when it may seem overwhelming or impossible.
Ok I'm sorry but I have to scratch my head at half of this post cause half of it has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.

Rap/R&B/"dumb muisc" has lasted this long because there is a market for it :doh:

Good question on our nation's capital being in an insecure spot but don't count on it being moved ever

Again there is a market for Hannah Montana and what does that half to do with anything?

[TIGERJC]

if you have nothing to hide then wiretapping is a non issue IMO.

If it helps stop terrorism, then im all for it.

Personally, i dont see Big Brother wire tapping and going adter people for the wrong reasons. Seems like its done a lot of good rather than bad.

IMO
F WIRETAPPING without a warrant, sorry but I don't trust the ppl that are in our gov't

[stephen]

see this is the problem with that line of thinking. 1st off who's business is it anyways as to what they execs are making? 2nd of all I would guarantee that almost any executive's qualifications are going to be much higher than your mom's. No disrespect but my point is this that an exec has had to work just as hard as anyone else they just made better decisions thourghout their liives to get to the point they are at.


it's not necessarily about "who's business it is on what i make." you have to think of it in terms of the company and ALL of its employees. i'm not sure if you remember, but during that time the pilots were threatening to go on strike. their reasoning for it was "we want more money." delta screamed about how it had NO money. imagine if you were an employee there...your job says "sorry regGT, we can't afford to maintain your salary, we'll have to either cut you down 40%, or you can take a severence package of 2 months pay at the reduced salary and we'll give you free flights for a year!" can you imagine how a 40% cut in pay will affect your life (considering you have a wife, kids who are in college, a house, a car, etc.)???? and your only option is to either take it, or know that in 2 months you may not have a job. now if they said that to you, you'd probably be like "damn...this company is going broke." then they turn around and offer executives severence packages that exceed their annual salary...seriously, would that not piss you off???? you wouldn't think "why the hell did that take almost half my money, if they can afford to give these folks double their money!?!" what's good for the goose, is good for the gander....right?

office politics plague us ALL. to be perfectly honest with you, you don't know WHAT my mom's qualifications are. her making over 100k a year wasn't just some handout. she worked hard to get where she's at. my whole point is EVERYONE IS TRYING TO SURVIVE. no, it's not fair to excessively tax the rich. sometimes it seems that the rich or "elite" have far more options than the average joe, which creates a rift in the social classes. like i said before, if the government is going to tax our hard earned money, then they need to use that money ON THE PEOPLE....that's what it's all about.

[TIGERJC]

Im kinda mixed on IRAQ. At the time, it was a good idea imo and this is why.

We were coming off 9/11 the biggest terror attack in history on US Soil. Now, that was a wake up call that the Clinton Era failed to secure our borders and failed to stop the posing threat of terrorism.

We get attacked and now we start panicking looking for "who is going to be next".

We settle on Iraq. Here is a country in a region that is plagued with people that are very outspoken about our destruction and israels destruction. This is a region that lets face it represents the majority of the people that attacked us on 9/11.

Iran was too powerfull for us to go after, not without the possibility of a nuclear war, Afghanistan is a country of nothing but guerillas, we werent going to go after the saudis, etc.

So enter IRAQ, a country we were just 10-12 years past a war. A country that DEFIED the UN for 12 years, a country that had a horrible dictator that committed mass genocide an ethnic cleansing.

A country that was not a REAL thread, but a threat none the less. We didnt have to worry about IRAQ coming after us, we had to worry about IRAQ helping , training, funding other people in the region, like Iran. Or providing safe haven for Bin Laden, Taliban, other terrorists etc.

The WMD were never found, but there was CREDIBLE intelligience to suggest there were some there at one time, and that they were moved long before we got there. There was also nerve gas and other chemical agents found in Iraq, just no Nukes.

I think AT THE TIME, we were in a "stop terrorism before it happens" mode and Iraq provided

1) A country we could really take over and change
2) A country that was due for its ass to get kicked
3) A country that was closest to providing a DEMOCRATIC Society in the region that with hopes would spread to other nations eventually.
4) Could prove to be a valuable ally in the future

Unfortunetly i think they misunderstood the insurgents and guerilla warfare aspect and thats where we are now. But the surge is working, there is ALOT less violence now, and it seems the country will be on its own in the next 2-5 years. Question is, will it stay democratic? or will this all be for nothing. We DONT KNOW YET.
you do know that Osama bin laden started hating america when the first Bush put troops on saudia arabia soil, He warned the U.S. not to do it. Before that during the regan adminstration we were financing Bin laden group of freedom fighters that we now call terriosts. Bush should have known not to cross bin laden, just b/c bin laden group was able to fight off the Soviets for so long.

[blaknoize]

F WIRETAPPING without a warrant, sorry but I don't trust the ppl that are in our gov'tUr not the only one.