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Ran

07-01-2008, 01:05 PM

You'd be surprised to see that most of the Christian congregations are full of crap these days. Mindless taking in whatever spew is thrown at them from their preachers. Did you know that almost all of your protestant "beliefs" are misguided? Some examples...

1) The "Trinity" (the belief that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one in the same) is NOT in the Bible. There are completely seperate.

2) Christmas is a pagan religion and NOT condoned by God or the Bible. Same for Easter. If you celebrate these holidays, then you are defying God's commandment to not associate him with them. Good job.

3) Unless you are one of the 144,000 chosen by God, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HEAVEN. Those with salvation will inherit the New Earth after the great tribulation and armageddon. No wings, halos, or pearly gates. Sorry.

4) There is no "Hell" with eternal suffering. There is only eternal destruction. Which is yet another way how God is merciful if you think about it.

5) The Passover (bread and wine) IS NOT FOR EVERYONE. It's for the select 144,000 that will inherit the kingdom and reign with Jesus. That's why the original ceremony was held in private amongst Jesus and his diciples and not amongst the masses. Look it up.

6) God's name is Jehovah, not "God". It appears in the Bible over 100 times. Hence why you have "Jehovah's Witnesses". It makes sense.

I can back up any of these with scriptural reference if you'd like later. If you have other questions, ask and I'll answer.

Also, for the record, I'm pretty much agnostic with christian tendencies due to upbringing. I'm not an atheist trying to bash you.

Killer

07-01-2008, 01:23 PM

Ran

07-01-2008, 01:28 PM

you should always post the scripture for reference with things like this....I'll get my books are post them up later. :goodjob:

do you celebrate either of them????Yes, but for no real reason other than to get off work and swap gifts, eat food, ect... They hold no religious meaning to me. Also, since I'm agnostic, I don't have to claim them to be something they're not. If you're a real Christian, you shouldn't be celebrating them. End of story.

i'd be more than willing to bet God is pretty pleased with the fact that christians/catholics.. turned what were once pagan holidays/rituals into two different days of the year that even non christians are basically forced to think about Him/Jesus......You think, but you'd be wrong. I'll try to find the scripture for you. God SPECIFICALLY says to NOT associate his name with pagan beliefs or religions. He tells you not to do something, but you do it anyway because you "think" it's the right thing to do if you slap a Jesus sticker on it? You'd still be wrong. The path to Hell (which doesn't exist BTW) is paved with good intentions.

Killer

07-01-2008, 01:38 PM

I'll get my books are post them up later. :goodjob:

not that i don't know where you're going with this stuff.. but please do...

Yes, but for no real reason other than to get off work and swap gifts, eat food, ect... They hold no religious meaning to me. Also, since I'm agnostic, I don't have to claim them to be something they're not. If you're a real Christian, you shouldn't be celebrating them. End of story.

..... exactly i already stated this.... but with your reasoning the only reason you should celebrate these days is with the pagan beliefs... and if you don't believe in them you shouldn't celebrate them...

You think, but you'd be wrong. I'll try to find the scripture for you. God SPECIFICALLY says to NOT associate his name with pagan beliefs or religions. He tells you not to do something, but you do it anyway because you "think" it's the right thing to do if you slap a Jesus sticker on it. You'd still be wrong. The path to Hell is paved with good intentions.

it's in what ever book that speaks about moses and all that... it's even in the ten commandments... "not to worship idols" like the golden bull they made to "worship god" when moses went and spoke with god on the mountain and received the commandments.....

1. if you don't believe in God/The Bible, you interpretations mean nothing... because they are just that... your interpretations... you can't tell me or anyone else that they are wrong for what they are doing.. or going against God... how am i going against something if it "doesn't exist" to you.... ?????

2. Man was basically made to fail... God knows we're gonna screw up... and we're allowed to do so... People put christians on to high of a pedestal sometimes.... christians are made of flesh too... they aren't perfect... and only the ones pretending to be christians claim they are perfect...

so it makes perfect sense that we would "do something we're not supposed to" we're human!!!!

Ran

07-01-2008, 01:58 PM

1. if you don't believe in God/The Bible, you interpretations mean nothing... because they are just that... your interpretations... you can't tell me or anyone else that they are wrong for what they are doing.. or going against God... how am i going against something if it "doesn't exist" to you.... ?????Agnostic != Atheist

I believe in a God or higher power, I just believe that organized religion is hideously flawed. Primarily Christianity.

Also, I'm not giving you my "interpretation". There is no "interpretation" to be made. I'm giving you what is written in your very own Bible. Unless you follow that BS King James Version with Unicorns.

And yes, I can tell some that they're wrong if their own book tells them that they're wrong but they're too stupid to read for themselves. I don't have to share beliefs with someone to know that what they're doing is wrong. The show me their ignorance everyday.

2. Man was basically made to fail... God knows we're gonna screw up... and we're allowed to do so... People put christians on to high of a pedestal sometimes.... christians are made of flesh too... they aren't perfect... and only the ones pretending to be christians claim they are perfect...

so it makes perfect sense that we would "do something we're not supposed to" we're human!!!!I never said otherwise. But it's funny how all of these protestant religions (Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic [ROFL], ect...) claim to have the answers but most of them don't understand it themselves. So in turn, they take their own flawed information and fool other people into false and misguided beliefs. I'm sure that makes God happy, right?

Sorry Killer, but your counter argument is weak at best. I'm not claiming to be perfect or anything of the sort. I'm only looking to correct the so-called "christians" on this site about THEIR OWN BELIEFS WITH THEIR OWN BIBLE. In essence, you could say that I'm doing them a favor.

kadabra

07-01-2008, 02:12 PM

I'll post up my two cents in alittle bit. This is going to get good...

Kelly

07-01-2008, 02:14 PM

1) The "Trinity" (the belief that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one in the same) is NOT in the Bible. There are completely seperate.

The Bible teaches that there is only one God. (Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:22)

The Bibles teaches that there is one who is called the Father and is identified as being God. (1 Peter 1:2)

The Bible teaches that there is one who is called Jesus and is identified as being God. (John 1:1-3&14-18, John 20:28-29, 1 John 1:1-4&5:20, Philippians 2:5-8, Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 22:12-20)

The Bible teaches that there is one who is called the Holy Spirit and is identified as being God. (John 14:16-17, John 15:26, John 16:7-15, Acts 5:3-4, Acts 13:2, 1 Corinthians 12:4-18, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 10:15-18)

2) Christmas is a pagan religion and NOT condoned by God or the Bible. Same for Easter. If you celebrate these holidays, then you are defying God's commandment to not associate him with them. Good job.

What Colossians 2:16-17 forbids is the celebration of religious seasons or holy days when they have been prescribed as religious duty and necessary for holiness or spirituality.

In this passage, the Apostle is talking about the Old Testament festivals which were shadows of the person and work of Christ--but Christ has now come. To continue to celebrate them is to dishonor the fact of His coming, or to act as though He were not enough for salvation or spirituality. Note what the Apostle says, "let no one act as your judge in regard to . . ." He is saying don't let anyone tell you these things are requirements for fellowship with God. They were only shadows of the person and work of Christ, and He has not only come and fulfilled those shadows, but He is totally sufficient.

Colossians 2:16 and 17 in no way forbids believers from commemorating something such as the birth of Christ if it is done out of love, devotion, and the joy the season gives when used as a way of focusing on the Savior and not as a religious duty. The issue is not the observance, but the reason, the attitudes and the spirit in which it is done.

Furthermore, I believe there is scriptural precedent for commemorating and remembering the birth of Christ. This is in keeping with the events that occurred around the time of Christ's birth These include:

1. The appearance of the angel of the Lord with the glory of the Lord to announce the birth of Christ to the shepherds (Lk. 2:10-12).

2. The response of the angels at the announcement of Christ's birth (Lk. 2:13-14).

3. The actions of the shepherds who left their flocks to go and see which was nothing short of a celebration (Lk. 2:15-20).

4. And the arrival of the men from the east bearing gifts as much as a year to two years later (Matt. 2:1-12).

There is, of course, the New Testament precedent for believers meeting together on Sunday. In essence this is a celebration of the Lord's resurrection. The early church automatically did this, but Scripture does not command us to do so. In fact, the early church at first met daily and took the Lord's Supper daily, but we don't do that today. Why not? Because these are not binding. We are not under the Law. Believers meet on Sunday because of its significance and because the early church set a precedent for it, but it was never commanded in the Bible. Believers did it out of love and adoration for the risen Savior.

The point is this: If the early church could celebrate the resurrection without a specific command from God, only the spirit of legalism or the letter of the law would forbid the celebration of Christ's birth as a special season of joy and adoration. Ultimately, the issue is not the season, its the attitude and reason behind it and the distortion of it. Let's not throw out the baby with the wash.

3) Unless you are one of the 144,000 chosen by God, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HEAVEN. Those with salvation will inherit the New Earth after the great tribulation and armageddon. No wings, halos, or pearly gates. Sorry.

Beloved, we simply do not know exactly how many will be in heaven. However, all who obey Jesus will be saved, whatever the total number (Heb. 5: 9).

4) There is no "Hell" with eternal suffering. There is only eternal destruction. Which is yet another way how God is merciful if you think about it.

Matthew 18:8
If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire.
Matthew 18:7-9 (in Context) Matthew 18 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Matthew 25:40-42 (in Context) Matthew 25 (Whole Chapter)
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Jude 1:6-8 (in Context) Jude 1 (Whole Chapter)

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Matthew 5:21-23 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
Matthew 5:28-30 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
Matthew 5:29-31 (in Context) Matthew 5 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:27-29 (in Context) Matthew 10 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
Matthew 18:8-10 (in Context) Matthew 18 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:15
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
Matthew 23:14-16 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 23:33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
Matthew 23:32-34 (in Context) Matthew 23 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.
Mark 9:42-44 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 9:45
And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.
Mark 9:44-46 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)
Mark 9:47
And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell

5) The Passover (bread and wine) IS NOT FOR EVERYONE. It's for the select 144,000 that will inherit the kingdom and reign with Jesus. That's why the original ceremony was held in private amongst Jesus and his diciples and not amongst the masses. Look it up.

We take Communion- the bread is in remembrance of his body that was broken and abused for us... the grape juice is in remembrance of the blood he shed.

6) God's name is Jehovah, not "God". It appears in the Bible over 100 times. Hence why you have "Jehovah's Witnesses". It makes sense.

God has many many names in the Bible :goodjob:
http://ldolphin.org/Names.html

Yeah, I did google some things- don't have the time to write out every verse.
Forgive me...

Is the Bible contradicting, yes... Why? I have no idea... It's all based on faith.

JDMEK18

07-01-2008, 02:17 PM

Quote: 2. People put christians on to high of a pedestal sometimes.... christians are made of flesh too... they aren't perfect... and only the ones pretending to be christians claim they are perfect...

so it makes perfect sense that we would "do something we're not supposed to" we're human!!!!

I agree with you 100% - I'm a Christian (def. not a perfect person) if i were then i wouldn't need what makes me a Christian = Jesus!!

Friendly mentioning... (to the creator of the forum - I'm not passive but I am respectful so everything i write please rec' it as conversation and not battling you) I'm sure you could point out some stuff to us that we might of over looked in the bible but is it in its true context?

Quote: 1) The "Trinity" (the belief that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one in the same) is NOT in the Bible. There are completely seperate.

Trust me, All bible readers know that the word trinity is not in the bible.. its a created word to represent the 3 in 1 (Father,Son,HolySpirit) ... we would have to talk in depth to explain this but its kind of like and egg (Shell,White,Yoke) They are all 1 item. Maybe that helps..

Quote: 3) Unless you are one of the 144,000 chosen by God, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HEAVEN. Those with salvation will inherit the New Earth after the great tribulation and armageddon. No wings, halos, or pearly gates. Sorry.

I would like for you to be more specific with this.. The bible does talk about a new heaven and new earth but, it mentions nothing about us not being in God's presence whether thats us all walking around with God, Jesus, etc.. in heaven or if its like in the Garden when "God walked with Adam" , who knows? I have never read anything extremely clear with extreme description as to what life after "Christ Return" will be like... This i do know - that the bible talks about seperation from Him (Hell, lake of fire, etc.. for those that don't believe and he talks about the place that Jesus is going to prepare for those that believe in him.. What ever the fine details are, I want to be in the place that gives me eternal life with HIM!!

Sport1.3

07-01-2008, 02:21 PM

One word. Dinosaurs

Kelly

07-01-2008, 02:21 PM

I would like for you to be more specific with this.. The bible does talk about a new heaven and new earth but, it mentions nothing about us not being in God's presence whether thats us all walking around with God, Jesus, etc.. in heaven or if its like in the Garden when "God walked with Adam" , who knows? I have never read anything extremely clear with extreme description as to what life after "Christ Return" will be like... This i do know - that the bible talks about seperation from Him (Hell, lake of fire, etc.. for those that don't believe and he talks about the place that Jesus is going to prepare for those that believe in him.. What ever the fine details are, I want to be in the place that gives me eternal life with HIM!!

It's in Revelations:

The Lamb and the 144,000
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Again with Faith...

Killer

07-01-2008, 02:26 PM

Agnostic != Atheist

I believe in a God or higher power, I just believe that organized religion is hideously flawed. Primarily Christianity.

Also, I'm not giving you my "interpretation". There is no "interpretation" to be made. I'm giving you what is written in your very own Bible. Unless you follow that BS King James Version with Unicorns.

And yes, I can tell some that they're wrong if their own book tells them that they're wrong but they're too stupid to read for themselves. I don't have to share beliefs with someone to know that what they're doing is wrong. The show me their ignorance everyday.

I never said otherwise. But it's funny how all of these protestant religions (Baptist, Presbyterian, Catholic [ROFL], ect...) claim to have the answers but most of them don't understand it themselves. So in turn, they take their own flawed information and fool other people into false and misguided beliefs. I'm sure that makes God happy, right?

Sorry Killer, but your counter argument is weak at best. I'm not claiming to be perfect or anything of the sort. I'm only looking to correct the so-called "christians" on this site about THEIR OWN BELIEFS WITH THEIR OWN BIBLE. In essence, you could say that I'm doing them a favor.

The Bible itself was written by man, has been translated by man, and every man has his own interpretation of "what means what" in the Bible... So even if you think my argument is "weak" I'm still right... You don't believe as we/they believe (i myself believe in a lot different way than what most christians do... so i'm kinda reluctant to include myself) there for even if it's in bold/and blatantly says "you shall not do this"... you still don't have the right to tell someone they are wrong for doing/believing/worshiping however they wish...

In my OPINION God convicts different people in different ways... just like i believe that Satan may tempt different people with different things....

you know what just hit me...... in your original statement.... ???

1) The "Trinity" (the belief that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one in the same) is NOT in the Bible. There are completely seperate.

2) Christmas is a pagan religion and NOT condoned by God or the Bible. Same for Easter. If you celebrate these holidays, then you are defying God's commandment to not associate him with them. Good job.

If God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are not One....

Why can't we celebrate Jesus birthday/death on pagan holidays???

YOUR argument contradicts itself.........

JDMEK18

07-01-2008, 02:28 PM

It's in Revelations:

The Lamb and the 144,000
1Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. 4These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. 5No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.

Again with Faith...

Yeah.. I've read this before but i don't know where he is getting that they are the only ones going to "HEAVEN" (Thanks for pointing this out though!) :goodjob:

Kelly

07-01-2008, 02:29 PM

JDMEK18

07-01-2008, 02:31 PM

Quote: Agnostic != Atheist

I believe in a God or higher power, I just believe that organized religion is hideously flawed. Primarily Christianity.

Question: Do you believe in the One True Living God? or is it another god?

Killer

07-01-2008, 02:31 PM

One word. Dinosaurs

what about em???

BABY J

07-01-2008, 02:35 PM

^^ IDK, but they are pretty tasty.

Killer

07-01-2008, 02:35 PM

You completely lost me on that last part...

the last part hit me it's not related to the rest of the post...

ran is stating that GOD SAYS not to associate HIM with PAGAN rituals yadda yadda yadda.....

he also stated that GOD JESUS AND THE HOLY GHOST ARE NOT ONE....

Chirstmas and Easter celebrate JESUS life and death...

not God Himself.... (as far as rans argument is concerned)

he's contradicting himself.. by saying that the pagan holidays that celebrate jesus offend god because he said not to associate GOD with the pagan rituals....

do you not get it?

i'm having a hard time finding the right words for this!!! lol

Ran

07-01-2008, 02:35 PM

The Bible teaches that there is only one God. (Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:22)

The Bibles teaches that there is one who is called the Father and is identified as being God. (1 Peter 1:2)

The Bible teaches that there is one who is called Jesus and is identified as being God. (John 1:1-3&14-18, John 20:28-29, 1 John 1:1-4&5:20, Philippians 2:5-8, Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 22:12-20)1 John 1:15 - John told the truth about him when he cried out, "This is the person about whom I said, 'The one who comes after me ranks higher than me, because he existed before me.'"

Philippians 2-6: In God's own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping.

John 1:1-3 - In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. He existed in the beginning with God. Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.

The Bible teaches that there is one who is called the Holy Spirit and is identified as being God. (John 14:16-17, John 15:26, John 16:7-15, Acts 5:3-4, Acts 13:2, 1 Corinthians 12:4-18, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 10:15-18)John 15:26 - "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf."

Conclusion: THERE IS NO TRINITY

Also, your quotes about "eternal fire" are mistranslated. The original text reads "Gehenna" which was a firey wastepit in which things and bodies were discarded in. However, the people are already dead and no longer "existing" upon being thrust into the fire. The terms "Hell" and eternal suffering weren't applied until much later.

The Bible itself was written by man, has been translated by man, and every man has his own interpretation of "what means what" in the Bible... So even if you think my argument is "weak" I'm still right... You don't believe as we/they believe (i myself believe in a lot different way than what most christians do... so i'm kinda reluctant to include myself) there for even if it's in bold/and blatantly says "you shall not do this"... you still don't have the right to tell someone they are wrong for doing/believing/worshiping however they wish...So you Christians can pick and choose which parts of the Bible to follow and which not to? Awesome.

If God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are not One....

Why can't we celebrate Jesus birthday/death on pagan holidays???

YOUR argument contradicts itself.........So then you're just celebrating a Pagan religion? Yeah, because that's a lot better. lol

I would like for you to be more specific with this.. The bible does talk about a new heaven and new earth but, it mentions nothing about us not being in God's presence whether thats us all walking around with God, Jesus, etc.. in heaven or if its like in the Garden when "God walked with Adam" , who knows? I have never read anything extremely clear with extreme description as to what life after "Christ Return" will be like... This i do know - that the bible talks about seperation from Him (Hell, lake of fire, etc.. for those that don't believe and he talks about the place that Jesus is going to prepare for those that believe in him.. What ever the fine details are, I want to be in the place that gives me eternal life with HIM!!It does say that God will be among us once again, which would put us in his presence. However, only the select 144,000 will reign in Heaven as kings with Jesus. Read Revelations and it's all pretty cut and dry.

Killer

07-01-2008, 02:36 PM

^^ IDK, but they are pretty tasty.

never tried it...

kadabra

07-01-2008, 02:37 PM

The Bible itself was written by man, has been translated by man, and every man has his own interpretation of "what means what" in the Bible... So even if you think my argument is "weak" I'm still right... You don't believe as we/they believe (i myself believe in a lot different way than what most christians do... so i'm kinda reluctant to include myself) there for even if it's in bold/and blatantly says "you shall not do this"... you still don't have the right to tell someone they are wrong for doing/believing/worshiping however they wish...
I don't think he was saying that you are WRONG for believing in the Bible/god. All he was saying was that the Holy book is covered with flaws, and that Religion or better yet, Christianity has a bunch of hypocrites and followers that don't care about the rules "God" created. Thus giving a your religion a bad name.

And like you said on your post, the bible was written by "man." Not a higher power like so many people choose to believe.

The new testament, the old. Which one is faker than the other? Hmm Im going to go with both. Just what I think. They both contain false tails.

In my OPINION God convicts different people in different ways... just like i believe that Satan may tempt different people with different things....
And just like you have your opinions on how things work, others do to. In my OPINION, God does not exists, but an evil does. And no, im not Satanic, but there are evil spirts out there and VERY LITTLE good.

Ran

07-01-2008, 02:37 PM

he's contradicting himself.. by saying that the pagan holidays that celebrate jesus offend god because he said not to associate GOD with the pagan rituals....If your son was associated with something you didn't want him to be, would you not in turn be associated with it indirectly? Same thing.

Kelly

07-01-2008, 02:38 PM

Yeah.. I've read this before but i don't know where he is getting that they are the only ones going to "HEAVEN" (Thanks for pointing this out though!) :goodjob:

I need to read more into... Gotta love Revelations :D The part where we win!

Seems like this may be who fights during the Tribulation- the 3 year period where God is totally NOT PRESENT on Earth. After the Rapture...

Step 1- The dead in Christ shall rise 1st
Step 2- We get raptured
Step 3- "The Tribulation"- People on Earth have their second chance and for 3 years get to decide if they are gonna believe in God this time. Tough choice since God will not be present on Earth. It's hard enough now, when we get to feel Him in a church service every now and then. Not to mention the fact that you will be martered if you believe. I think I'll stick it out the first time- much easier ;) .
Step 4- Those who don't believe get condemned to Hell, then God brings Heaven down to Earth... Eternally... Woo!

Probably won't happen exactly that way, but :dunno:

Ran

07-01-2008, 02:41 PM

I don't think he was saying that you are WRONG for believing in the Bible/god. All he was saying was that the Holy book is covered with flaws, and that Religion or better yet, Christianity has a bunch of hypocrites and followers that don't care about the rules "God" created. Thus giving a your religion a bad name.

And like you said on your post, the bible was written by "man." Not a higher power like so many people choose to believe.According the belief, the Bible is God's word written through man. God inspired if you will.

But yes, modern day religion is a joke and Christianity is leading the revolution in producing a bunch of non-informed morons into a new false religion.

Ran

07-01-2008, 02:43 PM

Step 4- Those who don't believe get condemned to Hell, then God brings Heaven down to Earth... Eternally... Woo!Wrong. No Hell. Please read into it. There is NO HELL FOR US. It specifically says "eternal destruction". No fire, no brimstone, no eternal suffering. DESTRUCTION. NON EXISTING.

Man, I wish I had my Bible and study guides on me.

Killer

07-01-2008, 02:46 PM

So you Christians can pick and choose which parts of the Bible to follow and which not to? Awesome.

Not what i said... My point is If you don't even believe that the words in the bible are true... WHY ARE YOU PREACHING THEM?... it shouldn't concern you... let people believe as they want to... as an agnostic its not your job to "spread the message"

So then you're just celebrating a Pagan religion? Yeah, because that's a lot better. lol

dude, you're just pulling stuff out of no where....

again.. point made is you say there is no trinity...

but god says not to associate HIM with pagan holidays...

nothing about associating jesus with them....

if god and jesus are not the same person then your argument is void....

Kelly

07-01-2008, 02:46 PM

Wrong. No Hell. Please read into it. There is NO HELL FOR US. It specifically says "eternal destruction". No fire, no brimstone, no eternal suffering. DESTRUCTION. NON EXISTING.

Man, I wish I had my Bible and study guides on me.

You're telling me I'm wrong because every scripture I gave you was "mistranslated". That's all you got?

kadabra

07-01-2008, 02:47 PM

According the belief, the Bible is God's word written through man. God inspired if you will.
Exactly, belief. I find it funny when people continue to say that the HOLY BOOK was created by the HOLY GOD. There is no scientific proof that this EVERY happened. NO proof of a person with his caliber every existing, NO proof that such events from the bible EVERY took place. So it amazes me when people STILL CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN IT.

But yes, modern day religion is a joke and Christianity is leading the revolution in producing a bunch of non-informed morons into a new false religion.
But hey, we're the bad guys when we choose to not believe in it. Right? Riiighhht...

kadabra

07-01-2008, 02:49 PM

You're telling me I'm wrong because every scripture I gave you was "mistranslated". That's all you got?No, he just corrected your attempt at trying to make a point.

Ran

07-01-2008, 02:50 PM

You're telling me I'm wrong because every scripture I gave you was "mistranslated". That's all you got?What version of the bible are you using?

But hey, we're the bad guys when we choose to not believe in it. Right? Riiighhht...Apparently, to be uninformed or misguided is no fault of our own. I don't think any of these modern-day congregations have the answers, but they think they do. According to Revelations, we'll be shown the answers during the Tribulation and they we make our choice. To not be informed is one thing, but to openly deny the truth is another. :dunno:

Killer

07-01-2008, 02:51 PM

I don't understand why you care.... other than to "rile up" some people on ia..... care to explain that to me?

btw, you and i get along very well on this site.. non of this is an attack or an out lash towards you...

Kelly

07-01-2008, 02:51 PM

Killer

07-01-2008, 02:53 PM

Exactly, belief. I find it funny when people continue to say that the HOLY BOOK was created by the HOLY GOD. There is no scientific proof that this EVERY happened. NO proof of a person with his caliber every existing, NO proof that such events from the bible EVERY took place. So it amazes me when people STILL CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN IT.

When you learn some more FACTS.. and that the word EVER AND EVERY are two different words... you can talk.... :D

JDMEK18

07-01-2008, 02:53 PM

Sorry for the *** trying to seperate!

*** Quote ***
1 John 1:15 - John told the truth about him when he cried out, "This is the person about whom I said, 'The one who comes after me ranks higher than me, because he existed before me.'"

John 1:1-3 - In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God. He existed in the beginning with God. Through him all things were made, and apart from him nothing was made that has been made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly
The Bible teaches that there is one who is called the Holy Spirit and is identified as being God. (John 14:16-17, John 15:26, John 16:7-15, Acts 5:3-4, Acts 13:2, 1 Corinthians 12:4-18, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 10:15-18)

John 15:26 - "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf."

Conclusion: THERE IS NO TRINITY

**********

I see what your saying but this doesn't prove there is no Trinity - it proves that there is!! We are not saying that you can't put God, Jesus, and The holy spirit next to each other.. were saying that the word Trinity represent all tree of them!!! But they are all of God and From God.. Jesus is sitting on the Right hand of the Father in Heaven so we know that they are seperate ...but ONE!! Jesus said that he was sent by the Father and what he speaks is not of him but of the Father.... He also Said that the HolySpirit would speak and confirm what He has said about the Father!! There is only one GOD!!! Jesus is the Son of GOD!! The HolySpirit is the spirit of truth, comforter, etc..

There is a Trinity!!!!

Kelly

07-01-2008, 02:54 PM

What version of the bible are you using?

New Internation Version

Most all of the versions mention an eternal fire in Jude 1:7

Kelly

07-01-2008, 02:55 PM

I see what your saying but this doesn't prove there is no Trinity - it proves that there is!! We are not saying that you can't put God, Jesus, and The holy spirit next to each other.. were saying that the word Trinity represent all tree of them!!! But they are all of God and From God.. Jesus is sitting on the Right hand of the Father in Heaven so we know that they are seperate ...but ONE!! Jesus said that he was sent by the Father and what he speaks is not of him but of the Father.... He also Said that the HolySpirit would speak and confirm what He has said about the Father!! There is only one GOD!!! Jesus is the Son of GOD!! The HolySpirit is the spirit of truth, comforter, etc..

There is a Trinity!!!!

Exactly

kadabra

07-01-2008, 02:56 PM

Listen, I will be the first to tell you that I haven't read all of the Bible, etc...

But I'm telling you right now I have felt God. Believe me or not He is as real to me as my mother. And no one can tell me any different because again, I have experienced it...This is exactly what my mother tells me. No one is clowning on you for believing in it, it's just hard for others who haven't experienced certain phenomenons to understand. You probably feel the "heat" of his hands, right? Thus making a your own conclusion that it was actually the hand of GOD that touched you.

kadabra

07-01-2008, 03:00 PM

When you learn some more FACTS.. and that the word EVER AND EVERY are two different words... you can talk.... :DHaha, damnit!

JDMEK18

07-01-2008, 03:00 PM

One word. Dinosaurs

Yeah, i know - the bible doesn't say anything about dinosaurs but it doesn't say anything about Sport1.3 (Put your name here) either but your real and breathing..

:thinking: (I don't know why people base there hole faith or no faith on dinosaurs)

Mentioned in love though!

Kelly

07-01-2008, 03:01 PM

This is exactly what my mother tells me. No one is clowning on you for believing in it, it's just hard for others who haven't experienced certain phenomenons to understand. You probably feel the "heat" of his hands, right? Thus making a your own conclusion that it was actually the hand of GOD that touched you.

Can't say that I have. I've just felt his presence. Not only at church...

kadabra

07-01-2008, 03:02 PM

Yeah, i know - the bible doesn't say anything about dinosaurs but it doesn't say anything about Sport1.3 (Put your name here) either but your real and breathing..

:thinking: (I don't know why people base there hole faith or no faith on dinosaurs)

Mentioned in love though!It's not that we're putting our faith into them, just that we should put them out there to show that the theory of evolution and the start of life did not come from Adam and Eve. But like Sport1.3 is real and breathing, thus making him real. Shouldn't we be able to see GOD doing the same?

Kelly

07-01-2008, 03:03 PM

Yeah, i know - the bible doesn't say anything about dinosaurs

30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

Maybe???

And this is really interesting:
http://www.genesispark.org/genpark/bible/bible.htm

Ran

07-01-2008, 03:08 PM

I don't understand why you care.... other than to "rile up" some people on ia..... care to explain that to me?I've just been hearing a bunch of religious bullsh*t lately and it's be working my nerves at how stupid some of these people are. It's a vent thread I guess.

btw, you and i get along very well on this site.. non of this is an attack or an out lash towards you...It's a debate man. Can't expect there to not be at least some heat. :D Civility comes in not taking personal offence. :cheers:

Listen, I will be the first to tell you that I haven't read all of the Bible, etc...I have.

But I'm telling you right now I have felt God. Believe me or not He is as real to me as my mother. And no one can tell me any different because again, I have experienced it...Never said he wasn't. I never said He wasn't with you and I won't try to prove you otherwise. I just think that modern day churches and their followers are incredibly mis-informed. I'll provide you with more specific examples when I get home.

kadabra

07-01-2008, 03:09 PM

JDMEK18

07-01-2008, 03:12 PM

It's not that we're putting our faith into them, just that we should put them out there to show that the theory of evolution and the start of life did not come from Adam and Eve. But like Sport1.3 is real and breathing, thus making him real. Shouldn't we be able to see GOD doing the same?

WE DO see him doing the same.. We just happen to have different beliefs so your eyes are not seeing what my eyes are seeing...

Its our faith in Jesus that opens our eyes to see what God is doing around us!! :goodjob:

Kelly

07-01-2008, 03:12 PM

Back then they had no clue that the Earth was round, so im sure he was just talking about the animals around a 100 mile radius.

Who? Moses?

And even if he was, who is to say he wasn't talking about Dinosaurs?

Kelly

07-01-2008, 03:14 PM

I've never said I've literally seen Him... Just felt/experienced...

Sport1.3

07-01-2008, 03:15 PM

what about em???

Unlike your god, they were real

kadabra

07-01-2008, 03:15 PM

Who? Moses?

And even if he was, who is to say he wasn't talking about Dinosaurs?Because all of them weren't around to see them. The time it's been since Jesus was crucified til now hasn't even been a blink on the historical clock.

JDMEK18

07-01-2008, 03:17 PM

30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.

Maybe???

And this is really interesting:
http://www.genesispark.org/genpark/bible/bible.htm

Nice, thats interesting! +2 The answers are always there - we just have to have the faith to look for them...
We are always looking to open the bible and it say " JDMEK18" Don't go into Club Nikki's or you will surely die.... Its not that cut and dry - I have to have faith to read the scripture and understand that the Chapters (I don't like to call them Stories cause people don't believe in stories) and experiences people are going through - show the answers to our questions...

Thanks again Kelly !!

Kelly

07-01-2008, 03:19 PM

Because all of them weren't around to see them. The time it's been since Jesus was crucified til now hasn't even been a blink on the historical clock.

I don't get it... He may not have seen all of them, but that doesn't mean he didn't see a few Brachiosaurus' roaming around and related to them in this verse.

Ran

07-01-2008, 03:19 PM

Killer

07-01-2008, 03:22 PM

Unlike your god, they were real

When you show me proof that He does not exist... i'll stop believing...

just like if i had proof that He does exist... you'd start following... (i'm not gonna say believe because to believe in something you have to have faith.. and faith is believing without seeing..)

kadabra

07-01-2008, 03:23 PM

I don't get it... He may not have seen all of them, but that doesn't mean he didn't see a few Brachiosaurus' roaming around and related to them in this verse.Haha, are you kidding me?! If anything he might have seen a giraffe, no way in hell he would be able to see a "long neck." They went extinct near the jurassic period. :lmfao:

Killer

07-01-2008, 03:25 PM

Haha, are you kidding me?! If anything he might have seen a giraffe, no way in hell he would be able to see a "long neck." They went extinct near the jurassic period. :lmfao:

thank you mr. archaeologist..

Sport1.3

07-01-2008, 03:25 PM

i'm staying outta this as per Nates request lulz

Total_Blender

07-01-2008, 03:26 PM

If the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only 144.000 are going to heaven why are they always trying to convert people? Wouldn't they want to save their own spots?:crazy:

Killer

07-01-2008, 03:29 PM

i'm staying outta this as per Nates request lulz

good... you're off topic anyway...

point of the thread is not if god does or does not exist...

it's about how misled christians are these days...

dork...

Kelly

07-01-2008, 03:30 PM

Haha, are you kidding me?! If anything he might have seen a giraffe, no way in hell he would be able to see a "long neck." They went extinct near the jurassic period. :lmfao:

Ok so I don't know my dinosaur history. :dunno:

Check out that link I posted though for real...

Jaimecbr900

07-01-2008, 03:30 PM

What's ironic is that when you show someone a Bible verse and THEY ARE HELL BENT (PUN INTENDED) ON WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE......no amount of logic and plain ole reading comprehension will ever convince them of anything other than what they already have ingrained in their head is the "truth". :rolleyes:

Kelly has clearly shown that Ran is no Bible scholar IMO. He said some very clear statements. Kelly came back and addressed EACH and EVERY one of them, not with HER words, but with the very words from the BIBLE that RAN swore "weren't there". What now? You want to still tip toe around the FACT that you were wrong when you said there was "no Hell"? Well, she gave you quite a few direct BIBLE verses that showed you were wrong as "HELL".....LOL. It clearly says "H-E-L-L" in each and every one of those verses. So I guess that proves to Ran that somehow it's "not in the Bible"?????:thinking: I don't know about you, but not one single description of "HELL" is ever good, so I personally wouldn't want to ever purposely go there. Right or wrong?

Hey, it also clearly says in the Bible that we should all "take up serpents". Right or wrong? So you people think that if you don't take that verse LITERALLY and "play" with snakes every Sunday during Church service then we are NOT being a good and Pius Christian?????:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: Okie dokie.:rolleyes:

This is the funny thing about every single non-believer that I have ever encountered. They profess to be so smart and so forward thinking, yet they use THEIR INTERPRETATION of the Bible to support their belief......yet, when someone tells THEM that they INTERPRET that same Bible DIFFERENTLY which is why they believe what they believe......OMG, OMG......"YOU MUST NOT BE A TRUE CHRISTIAN.....:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: "

Until someone shows me a Theology PHD......your OPINION and INTERPRETATION of the Bible, it's contents, meanings, definitions, etc hold as much water as a leaky collander. How come it's "ok" for two people to read the same exact words, yet get something different out of it? Yet when two people read the Bible, there is suddenly only ONE true meaning and that ONE true meaning is only in the eye of the beholder????? How does that make sense? The entire world can evolve, but our thinking and interpretations can't????? Whatever. Keep thinking that. We'll one day see just who was right and who was wrong. If you think about it, Christians have ZERO to lose if they were "wrong". Why? Because if there is no God, NOTHING will happen when we die. If there is, WE will have something good waiting on us. What's the DOWN side again?????:thinking: :thinking: :thinking: What's the DOWN side for YOU?????;) That's what YOU should be thinking about. Don't worry about Christians. They're well taken care of. Question is.......are YOU if you die today?????;) Worry about THAT. :goodjob:

kadabra

07-01-2008, 03:32 PM

I work with 7 Christian girls, all teenagers. What do they do every weekend? Get shiitfaced lol

JDMEK18

07-01-2008, 03:33 PM

RAN !!!!! Still curious in what god you believe in??? And why do you believe in him?

Ran

07-01-2008, 03:34 PM

If the Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only 144.000 are going to heaven why are they always trying to convert people? Wouldn't they want to save their own spots?:crazy:Umm...no.

Ran

07-01-2008, 03:35 PM

RAN !!!!! Still curious in what god you believe in???Yes, I am. Always seeking answers.

why do you believe in him?What?

Killer

07-01-2008, 03:37 PM

jamie... repped...

Ran

07-01-2008, 03:37 PM

If you think about it, Christians have ZERO to lose if they were "wrong". Why? Because if there is no God, NOTHING will happen when we die. If there is, WE will have something good waiting on us. What's the DOWN side again?????:thinking: :thinking: :thinking: What's the DOWN side for YOU?????;) That's what YOU should be thinking about. Don't worry about Christians. They're well taken care of. Question is.......are YOU if you die today?????;) Worry about THAT. :goodjob:Well, according the Christian Bible, I'll be given a second chance when the great tribulation comes. I'd love to be proven wrong at that point. So yeah, I should be okay. Thanks.

Jaimecbr900

07-01-2008, 03:37 PM

I work with 7 Christian girls, all teenagers. What do they do every weekend? Get shiitfaced lol

And that means exactly WHAT????:thinking:

Why is it that people always want to say that Christians do nothing wrong? I'd like for someone to show me where ANY CHRISTIAN says they are "perfect". Show me. Until then, you have no point. What exactly is the point? That they make mistakes???? Wooooo Hooooo, you discovered America with that. Newsflash......everybody else but YOU already KNOWS that NOONE is perfect. Welcome to last millenia. What now? :thinking:

Jaimecbr900

07-01-2008, 03:38 PM

Well, according the Christian Bible, I'll be given a second chance when the great tribulation comes. I'd love to be proven wrong at that point. So yeah, I should be okay. Thanks.

What if you're not ALIVE then?.......;) Big gamble, don't you think?

kadabra

07-01-2008, 03:40 PM

And that means exactly WHAT????:thinking:

Why is it that people always want to say that Christians do nothing wrong? I'd like for someone to show me where ANY CHRISTIAN says they are "perfect". Show me. Until then, you have no point. What exactly is the point? That they make mistakes???? Wooooo Hooooo, you discovered America with that. Newsflash......everybody else but YOU already KNOWS that NOONE is perfect. Welcome to last millenia. What now? :thinking:The fact that each of them say they're GOOD Christian girls YET ACT LIKE HOOLIGANS shows how WEAK their belief is. The majority of them say they follow GOD's rules, YET the majority of them DON'T. Am I right? I know I am, I've seen it first hand.

Killer

07-01-2008, 03:40 PM

Yes, I am. Always seeking answers.

What?

he's asking you what your actual beliefs are and why you believe them... as far as a god/gods/what not....

not asking you if you yourself are curios about the god you follow... dork..

lol...

to some what answer that for you...

Ran is agnostic... to my understanding they believe there is a higher power out there.. they just don't define it as one or many gods... just know there is something out there bigger than us that has something to do with life....

am i sorta right ran?

4eyedbox

07-01-2008, 03:41 PM

Very true, but your misinterpreting what I mean by the trinity. Many churches believe that Jesus, God, and the holy spirit are one in the same. Which is not true. That's what I was referring to.

What you are referring to is known as Modalism. Modalist believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all one being that changes forms at different times. Modalism is also what is often used by Jehovah Witnesses to attempt to disprove the Trinity; however, the teachings of the Trinity are that they are three different beings which all derivitives of the same. A true example of the Trinity can be seen in 2 Cor 13:13, May the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. And in case you are wondering, I am using a NLV Bible at the moment. I do not have the time necessary at this point to run it through a Strong's Concordence, but it is still close the Greek meanings.

As stated earlier, it is not pagonistic to celebrate the birth or resurection of Jesus Christ on any day of the calander; however, it would be paganistic to celebrate just the date. And as far as the dates originally being paganistic holidays, do you think that anyone actually knows what celebrations Easter and Christmas actually replaced? Therefore, do you think we are celebrating the originally meanings or the birth and resurection of our Savior?

Thats all I have time for right now. It seems that I must go to work and continue to carry the message to the sick and suffering.

JDMEK18

07-01-2008, 03:41 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ran
Well, according the Christian Bible, I'll be given a second chance when the great tribulation comes. I'd love to be proven wrong at that point. So yeah, I should be okay. Thanks.

What if you're not ALIVE then?....... Big gamble, don't you think?

******

x2.. i was about to say the same thing....

NevrNufTorq

07-01-2008, 03:41 PM

What if you're not ALIVE then?.......;) Big gamble, don't you think?
tried to rep ya for that one but wouldnt let me!!

kadabra

07-01-2008, 03:42 PM

Ran is agnostic... to my understanding they believe there is a higher power out there.. they just don't define it as one or many gods... just know there is something out there bigger than us that has something to do with life....

am i sorta right ran?Yup, you're right.

99hatch

07-01-2008, 03:43 PM

Killer

07-01-2008, 03:44 PM

Well, according the Christian Bible, I'll be given a second chance when the great tribulation comes. I'd love to be proven wrong at that point. So yeah, I should be okay. Thanks.

yeah, but as kelly stated... the tribulation is no walk in the park... God filled... church service...

you have to choose to believe in God, where there will be no proof/or even feeling of God... And Choosing to believe in God is certain death... I'm pretty sure you have to become a marder(spl?) to make it to heaven then.....

i wouldn't bank on changing your beliefs during the tribulation man.... who knows when that'll be... and you're not promised a tomorrow...

kadabra

07-01-2008, 03:47 PM

To quiet the talk about dinosaurs, the bible does mention them. I believe its in Exodus (however when i get home i will look it up, i have it marked) that there were creatures that were enormous and have tail's as big as tree's. The only animal on the earth like that is a dinosaur. Not to mention the word Dinosaur was not invented till the mid 1800's very long after the bible was written.
What verse in the bible says that? I want to see it.

I strongly doubt they would've been able to see any kind of animal with a tail as long as trees back then. Seeing as how Dinosuars have not walked this earth for over 65 MILLION years. Do you know how long that is? You can't compare animals from 10,000 years to them, there is NO comparision.

To the other person who said that none of the facts in the bible can be true or proven. It is a fact that Jesus lived. History backs that up. As well as many other stories in the bible. Just like in the old testament it predicted that the Roman empire would happen as well as Ceasar's Empire, years before they ever came into power.
Stories, nothing more. You did bring up an interesting point though, I've seen shows that speak of the Bible being able to predict the future by uncoding text in it. Still, that's not proof of a higher power existing.

JDMEK18

07-01-2008, 03:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDMEK18
RAN !!!!! Still curious in what god you believe in???

Yes, I am. Always seeking answers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JDMEK18
why do you believe in him?

What?

*************

So you don't believe in (Bible) God but you believe there is a higher being then us?

Don't you think that its easier to believe in this kind of god because you can create him to do what you want, and you make the rules, really making you the god?

Just thinking!!

Ran

07-01-2008, 03:49 PM

What if you're not ALIVE then?.......;) Big gamble, don't you think?Not at all.

yeah, but as kelly stated... the tribulation is no walk in the park... God filled... church service...

you have to choose to believe in God, where there will be no proof/or even feeling of God... And Choosing to believe in God is certain death... I'm pretty sure you have to become a marder(spl?) to make it to heaven then.....

i wouldn't bank on changing your beliefs during the tribulation man.... who knows when that'll be... and you're not promised a tomorrow...There's two ways that works, both in my favor.

1) I'm alive for it. I see the biblical prophecies come true and I put 2+2 together. Hooray Jesus!

2) I die before the tribulation. During the second coming of Christ, I am brought back to life and shown the truth. If I die, and come back to life but still don't believe then I deserve what I get. :lmfao:

Also, I'm not going to Heaven. If anything, I'll be at the New Earth.

Killer

07-01-2008, 03:49 PM

99hatch

07-01-2008, 03:50 PM

I work with 7 Christian girls, all teenagers. What do they do every weekend? Get shiitfaced lol

This does prove nothing, Im not one to judge or condemn, everyone sins and sin is equal (if you are a Christian, which i am) but these girls might just be claiming Christianity. Just like there are crazy people out there that blow up abortion clinics then say they did it for God. God would never blow up abortion clinics etc.

Also the people that struck in 9/11 claimed to be Muslim. However Muslims practice peace, not attacking others. Im not agreeing with being a Muslim, but just because there are a few bad apples does not mean you can condemn an entire religion. Thats like me saying, well i met 2 guys that are pricks and drive civics, so therefore everyone on this site that drives a civic must be a prick. Its simply not true, or fair to condemn everyone based on a couple of people doing wrong.

kadabra

07-01-2008, 03:51 PM

as he said.. i think it's in exodus... and i think the animal/beast is called a leviathan (or something like that... maybe i'm making that part up!! lol)An underwater creature? :rolleyes: Maybe a Whale is what he saw.

Ran

07-01-2008, 03:51 PM

So you don't believe in (Bible) God but you believe there is a higher being then us?

Don't you think that its easier to believe in this kind of god because you can create him to do what you want, and you make the rules, really making you the god?

Just thinking!!Pretty sure it doesn't work that way. If I could just create my own God, then that'd be convient. Hell, look at Scientologists. However, I do believe in something after this life so researching and trying to find some actual answers is my goal. I don't want to just make something up.

Jaimecbr900

07-01-2008, 03:51 PM

The fact that each of them say they're GOOD Christian girls YET ACT LIKE HOOLIGANS shows how WEAK their belief is. The majority of them say they follow GOD's rules, YET the majority of them DON'T. Am I right? I know I am, I've seen it first hand.

I guess YOUR peak of experience and knowledge was also when YOU were a teenager, huh???? ;)

So, some teenagers, whom by definition are indeed immature, are sewing their wild oats and suddenly that is the rock solid proof YOU use to NOT believe in God????? Okie Dokie.....:rolleyes: :goodjob:

I'll say the same thing to you.......Big gamble, don't you think? ;)

Come up with something better than that. I guess ALL Subaru drivers are tards then too, huh????? ;)

Killer

07-01-2008, 03:51 PM

There's two ways that works, both in my favor.

1) I'm alive for it. I see the biblical prophecies come true and I put 2+2 together. Hooray Jesus!

2) I die before the tribulation. During the second coming of Christ, I am brought back to life and shown the truth. If I die, and come back to life but still don't believe then I deserve what I get. :lmfao:

Also, I'm not going to Heaven. If anything, I'll be at the New Earth.

... i don't remember anywhere it standing that the dead that did NOT believe in christ will rise again...

i'm pretty sure during the second coming the only ones that rise from the grave were believers....

i don't have scripture to back that up... so if you do to disprove me please let me read it... cause i don't think i ever have...

Ran

07-01-2008, 03:52 PM

Stories, nothing more.Care to explain the Babylon Prophecy?

Killer

07-01-2008, 03:53 PM

An underwater creature? :rolleyes: Maybe a Whale is what he saw.

whales/sharks/crocodiles... pretty sure they all were dinosaurs....

btw i said i could be wrong on the name.. i may just be pulling that out of some other story about dinosaurs lol!!!

99hatch

07-01-2008, 03:54 PM

What verse in the bible says that? I want to see it.

I strongly doubt they would've been able to see any kind of animal with a tail as long as trees back then. Seeing as how Dinosuars have not walked this earth for over 65 MILLION years. Do you know how long that is? You can't compare animals from 10,000 years to them, there is NO comparision.

Stories, nothing more. You did bring up an interesting point though, I've seen shows that speak of the Bible being able to predict the future by uncoding text in it. Still, that's not proof of a higher power existing.

When i get to the house i will find it and post it for you, like i said i have it marked in my bible at the house.

These are not stories. They are facts. Study some mid eastern history.

Ran

07-01-2008, 03:54 PM

... i don't remember anywhere it standing that the dead that did NOT believe in christ will rise again...

i'm pretty sure during the second coming the only ones that rise from the grave were believers....

i don't have scripture to back that up... so if you do to disprove me please let me read it... cause i don't think i ever have...Those that openly deny Christ and Jehovah God will not be given a second chance. However, those that are misinformed or were never shown the truth will be risen and given a second chance.

If only the believers were to be resurrected, then all of the starving tribesmen in Africa and elsewhere would be doomed to damnation and never given a chance. :goodjob:

The way I see it, I'm not denying Christ. He could very well be the truth, the light, ect... but there's just not enough proof right now to solidify my faith. I'm still seeking answers and I think that the Bible may have them. Then again, maybe Buddhism is the answer. I don't know. I'm still learning.

Killer

07-01-2008, 03:57 PM

Those that openly deny Christ and Jehovah God will not be given a second chance. However, those that are misinformed or were never shown the truth will be risen and given a second chance.

If only the believers were to be resurrected, then all of the starving tribesmen in Africa and elsewhere would be doomed to damnation and never given a chance. :goodjob:

The way I see it, I'm not denying Christ. He could very well be the truth, the light, ect... but there's just not enough proof right now to solidify my faith. I'm still seeking answers and I think that the Bible may have them. Again, I'm still learning.

how have you been mis informed then???? you said it yourself, you've read the whole bible... pretty sure that's the most informing book your gonna find on christianity!!!

kadabra

07-01-2008, 03:58 PM

I guess YOUR peak of experience and knowledge was also when YOU were a teenager, huh???? ;)

So, some teenagers, whom by definition are indeed immature, are sewing their wild oats and suddenly that is the rock solid proof YOU use to NOT believe in God????? Okie Dokie.....:rolleyes: :goodjob:

I'll say the same thing to you.......Big gamble, don't you think? ;)

Come up with something better than that. I guess ALL Subaru drivers are tards then too, huh????? ;)I was never into the whole religion thing even as a kid. I admit, I did use to pray to a God as a child, every night. For something that I really wanted, yet after I realized that it would NOT come, I stopped. And MOVED ON.

I'm 21, not old enough to KNOW what life is about. My teen years where not the best, but I did gain alot of knowledge through out them. I've made mistakes just like everyone else, but I never claimed to be a good boy who didn't do anything bad. Christian kids are the opposite, they go around saying they're good little angels but are in fact trouble makers who could give a shiit about God while their out with their friends acting a fool.

I never said, ALL of them are like that. BUT they are the new generation and will be the ones who will fucc up the whole cycle if this keeps up.

99hatch

07-01-2008, 03:59 PM

Those that openly deny Christ and Jehovah God will not be given a second chance. However, those that are misinformed or were never shown the truth will be risen and given a second chance.

If only the believers were to be resurrected, then all of the starving tribesmen in Africa and elsewhere would be doomed to damnation and never given a chance. :goodjob:

The way I see it, I'm not denying Christ. He could very well be the truth, the light, ect... but there's just not enough proof right now to solidify my faith. I'm still seeking answers and I think that the Bible may have them. Again, I'm still learning.

I do agree with you about those who where never shown the path will be given a second chance. Also says children under a certain age will be. You cant expect God to send a 4 year old to hell, because he cannot contemplate the existence of God, as well as those all over the world that have never even heard of the Bible and God.

Ran

07-01-2008, 03:59 PM

how have you been mis informed then???? you said it yourself, you've read the whole bible... pretty sure that's the most informing book your gonna find on christianity!!!Misinformed? Maybe not. I'm just not convinced. I not denying that true Christianity may be the answer, but the assumed "God inspired" book written by man is still just that, written by man. It's just not enough for me to be sure. Anyone who simply reads the Bible cover to cover and claims to have all the answers is a fool. It takes research and a willingness to learn. That's what I'm doing now.

kadabra

07-01-2008, 04:01 PM

whales/sharks/crocodiles... pretty sure they all were dinosaurs....

btw i said i could be wrong on the name.. i may just be pulling that out of some other story about dinosaurs lol!!!
Thanks to Evolution. ;)

Killer

07-01-2008, 04:03 PM

I was never into the whole religion thing even as a kid. I admit, I did use to pray to a God as a child, every night. For something that I really wanted, yet after I realized that it would NOT come, I stopped. And MOVED ON.

so you stopped praying to God, because you were a little kid that didn't get everything he wanted???? are you serious??? the world is a lot bigger than you man...

I never said, ALL of them are like that.

yeah, you pretty much just did... look.. -

Christian kids are the opposite, they go around saying they're good little angels but are in fact trouble makers who could give a shiit about God while their out with their friends acting a fool.

you just generalized all christian kids....

Killer

07-01-2008, 04:04 PM

Misinformed? Maybe not. I'm just not convinced. I not denying that true Christianity may be the answer, but the assumed "God inspired" book written by man is still just that, written by man. It's just not enough for me to be sure. Anyone who simply reads the Bible cover to cover and claims to have all the answers is a fool. It takes research and a willingness to learn. That's what I'm doing now.

never said you'd have all the answers... but a good understanding on the matter... enough to make a choice to either believe or not believe i would think...

Ran

07-01-2008, 04:06 PM

never said you'd have all the answers... but a good understanding on the matter... enough to make a choice to either believe or not believe i would think...Eh, there's a lot in the Bible that makes me believe, but there's a lot that's scientifically contradictory to make me think otherwise.

The Bible alone just isn't enough man. Not for me.

kadabra

07-01-2008, 04:06 PM

so you stopped praying to God, because you were a little kid that didn't get everything he wanted???? are you serious??? the world is a lot bigger than you man...
I was like 7, yea I knew better back then. :rolleyes:

Im not being a cry baby, I learned THE HARD WAY that if you pray to GOD you will NOT get anything in RETURN.

yeah, you pretty much just did... look.. -

you just generalized all christian kids....
I was referring to the KiDS, not the adults. Jaime was talking about Christians in general. Which I did not do.

Jaimecbr900

07-01-2008, 04:06 PM

Those that openly deny Christ and Jehovah God will not be given a second chance. However, those that are misinformed or were never shown the truth will be risen and given a second chance.

First true thing you've said in this thread.:goodjob:

The way I see it, I'm not denying Christ. He could very well be the truth, the light, ect... but there's just not enough proof right now to solidify my faith. I'm still seeking answers and I think that the Bible may have them. Again, I'm still learning.

I complemented you too soon.......:headslap:

That is a very convenient oxymoron. :rolleyes:

If you right above say that those that openly deny Christ's existance will NOT be given a second chance, then where do YOU fall? YOU don't live in some third world tribal civilization that has NEVER had exposure to the truth. So you don't get the luxury of straddling the fence nor covering yourself under the unbrella of non-exposure. So once again to you I say......now what?

Killer

07-01-2008, 04:10 PM

Thanks to Evolution. ;)

christians aren't against evolution as a whole... i don't think...

yeah, things, people, creatures adapt... there's no way around that...

just that we evolved from something non living.. into some weird cell.. into a fish.. into a lizard.. into a furry lizzard... into a monkey... neanderthal.... cave man... human.... and for everything on earth to just fall into place and work.. with out some sort of design...

it takes a human to design anything mechanical to function.. scrap metal doesn't just evolve into cadillac....

just like i feel the earth/living creatures were designed to work the way we work... of course there will be some "improvements" along the way... just like cars having some pretty awesome improvements themselves...

Ran

07-01-2008, 04:10 PM

I complemented you too soon.......:headslap:

That is a very convenient oxymoron. :rolleyes:

If you right above say that those that openly deny Christ's existance will NOT be given a second chance, then where do YOU fall? YOU don't live in some third world tribal civilization that has NEVER had exposure to the truth. So you don't get the luxury of straddling the fence nor covering yourself under the unbrella of non-exposure. So once again to you I say......now what?It's not an oxymoron at all. Take it in context and do some personal research.

I do not look at the Bible and say, "NO! You're a lie and not the truth no matter what you say!" I forget the term for people like me, but we are not d@mned because we're uncertain. I get the luxury of straddling a fence and trying to learn that anyone else gets. Just because you give someone a Bible doesn't force them to believe or not right there.

I'm learning and should I die tomorrow, I'll be given a second chance because I'm still persuing the truth. That's according to biblical scripture.

Killer

07-01-2008, 04:11 PM

Eh, there's a lot in the Bible that makes me believe, but there's a lot that's scientifically contradictory to make me think otherwise.

The Bible alone just isn't enough man. Not for me.

that's a lack of faith then...

Killer

07-01-2008, 04:13 PM

I was like 7, yea I knew better back then. :rolleyes:

Im not being a cry baby, I learned THE HARD WAY that if you pray to GOD you will NOT get anything in RETURN.

maybe there was a reason you weren't receiving what you were praying for.....

Ran

07-01-2008, 04:15 PM

that's a lack of faith then...I'd rather be learning and have a so-called "lack of faith" then just blindly follow something that I'm not sure is the truth, like so many church-goers these days.

Jaimecbr900

07-01-2008, 04:16 PM

I was never into the whole religion thing even as a kid. I admit, I did use to pray to a God as a child, every night. For something that I really wanted, yet after I realized that it would NOT come, I stopped. And MOVED ON.

Maybe he did, but just not the answer you wanted but needed.....;)

Christian kids are the opposite, they go around saying they're good little angels but are in fact trouble makers who could give a shiit about God while their out with their friends acting a fool.

Where do you come up with this garbage? Do Christians wear some kind of Scarlet letter that professes them to be "perfect" little beings??? Where do you get this from? Maybe these people are just COCKY people that think they do no wrong. Ever thought of that. I know some VERY COCKY people that THINK they do nothing wrong, yet they are the dumbest animals on the planet. What exactly is your connection to Christianity from that? :thinking:

JDMEK18

07-01-2008, 04:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killer
how have you been mis informed then???? you said it yourself, you've read the whole bible... pretty sure that's the most informing book your gonna find on christianity!!!

Misinformed? Maybe not. I'm just not convinced. I not denying that true Christianity may be the answer, but the assumed "God inspired" book written by man is still just that, written by man. It's just not enough for me to be sure. Anyone who simply reads the Bible cover to cover and claims to have all the answers is a fool. It takes research and a willingness to learn. That's what I'm doing now.

****************

You have read the words and the teachings of Jesus so this is YOUR CHANCE !!! Take it while you can. The only thing missing is FAITH - Brother we believers were all where you are at some point (different issues though) and we had to choose to believe!! "EVERYONE THAT SEEKS JESUS WILL FIND HIM" EVERYONE!!! Seek him and not knowledge and proof !!

driftn4jesus

07-01-2008, 04:17 PM

I do agree with you about those who where never shown the path will be given a second chance. Also says children under a certain age will be. You cant expect God to send a 4 year old to hell, because he cannot contemplate the existence of God, as well as those all over the world that have never even heard of the Bible and God.

Where in the bible does it say people will be given a second chance after they die? Just wondering.

Killer

07-01-2008, 04:17 PM

I'd rather be learning and have a so-called "lack of faith" then just blindly follow something that I'm not sure is the truth, like so many church-goers these days.

the christian religion is kinda based on faith...

Jaimecbr900

07-01-2008, 04:18 PM

Im not being a cry baby, I learned THE HARD WAY that if you pray to GOD you will NOT get anything in RETURN.

Gee, I wonder why you didn't get EXACTLY what you "wanted" with that kind of attitude......:rolleyes:

Then again......since that's your outlook.....you may have just gotten EXACTLY what you NEEDED......;)

Killer

07-01-2008, 04:19 PM

Gee, I wonder why you didn't get EXACTLY what you "wanted" with that kind of attitude......:rolleyes:

Then again......since that's your outlook.....you may have just gotten EXACTLY what you NEEDED......;)

lotta truth right there!!

JDMEK18

07-01-2008, 04:22 PM

I'd rather be learning and have a so-called "lack of faith" then just blindly follow something that I'm not sure is the truth, like so many church-goers these days.

I agree that some people call them selves Christians but are NOT..

And on the Day of Judgement - Many will say on that day - Lord, Lord.. Did we not professi, and cast out demons in Your name? God will say depart from me - those who work in iniquity (forgive all the spelling)

JDMEK18

07-01-2008, 04:25 PM

Man, I hate to go but I'm getting off work now, I'm sure this page will be 100 pages tomorrow! God Bless - peace!!

Ran

07-01-2008, 04:25 PM

Where in the bible does it say people will be given a second chance after they die? Just wondering.Read up about the resurrection, tribulation, and all that. :goodjob:

the christian religion is kinda based on faith...So is every other religion out there. Faith will come once I find the proof that I need. I have to know there's something to believe in before I just proclaim it.

You have read the words and the teachings of Jesus so this is YOUR CHANCE !!! Take it while you can. The only thing missing is FAITH - Brother we believers were all where you are at some point (different issues though) and we had to choose to believe!! "EVERYONE THAT SEEKS JESUS WILL FIND HIM" EVERYONE!!! Seek him and not knowledge and proof !!What you're proposing is blind faith. I'll have no part in that and I'm pretty sure the Christian God doesn't want that either.

For example, do you think I'd want Killer to claim me as his friend just because I promise all of my friends that I can get them 50% off car parts? No. I'd rather him know about me and actually grow as my friend.

Same principle. I'm not going to just claim Jesus Christ as my savior out of ignorance. I'll learn properly and find my answers. That's the way it should be done.

JDMEK18

07-01-2008, 04:32 PM

Read up about the resurrection, tribulation, and all that. :goodjob:

What you're proposing is blind faith. I'll have no part in that and I'm pretty sure the Christian God doesn't want that either.

For example, do you think I'd want Killer to claim me as his friend just because I promise all of my friends that I can get them 50% off car parts? No. I'd rather him know about me and actually grow as my friend.

Same principle. I'm not going to just claim Jesus Christ as my savior out of ignorance. I'll learn properly and find my answers. That's the way it should be done.

But faith is blind!!!! What else are you looking for! You have read his word and now you have to believe and receive him or deny him! It's not walking blind.. your actually blind now because you don't know the way (wheather you think its Jesus's way or not) But only when you rec' HIM - Will HE remove the covers that are over your eye's..(not physical eye's.. spiritual eyes') Your looking and looking for all this knowledge when you have all you need.. only add FAITH!! Jesus is not going to come and smack you on the back of the head (Dang, Saul (Now Paul) you were so lucky!!!) for you to understand that HE is who HE is!!! At some point you must understand that in order to rec' faith and know HIM you have to let go off all that you have read and learned and FOLLOW HIM!!! This is when your relationship grows with him.. It will never grow with him until you rec' him.. (not 1/2 way believe in him - He won't settle for second best in your life or even as way out if all fails) He wants to be #1.. Theres nothing else for you to learn with out him.. THERE IS EVERYTHING ELSE FOR YOU TO LEARN WITH HIM !!! :goodjob:

Killer

07-01-2008, 04:32 PM

So is every other religion out there. Faith will come once I find the proof that I need. I have to know there's something to believe in before I just proclaim it.

knowing is not having faith though...

What you're proposing is blind faith. I'll have no part in that and I'm pretty sure the Christian God doesn't want that either.

For example, do you think I'd want Killer to claim me as his friend just because I promise all of my friends that I can get them 50% off car parts? No. I'd rather him know about me and actually grow as my friend.

Same principle. I'm not going to just claim Jesus Christ as my savior out of ignorance. I'll learn properly and find my answers. That's the way it should be done.

:ninja: you can get me 50% off on car parts???

lol sorry...

you actually have a good point.. what a lot of christians don't ask themselves is "would you still believe in and worship jesus/God if there was no hell" if there were no consequences... and you weren't really gaining anything in other words....

and i'm glad you at least have that outlook on things... waiting to actually build a relationship as opposed to just trying to get a "get out of jail free" card...

Ran

07-01-2008, 04:42 PM

knowing is not having faith though...Kind of ironic when you hear people proclaim about all the evidence they have then, huh?

Faith is a touchy subject, as is religion in itself. Organized religion, to me, is flawed beyond repair. Even if I find my faith, I want no part of a church or congregation. Is that bad? Probably, but I have a general distaste for people in general and the religious hypocrisy that's abound doesn't help. If I'm going to find my faith, then I'll find it in good time and under my own conditions.

Killer

07-01-2008, 04:48 PM

99hatch

07-01-2008, 06:36 PM

Where in the bible does it say people will be given a second chance after they die? Just wondering.

No i was speaking about those who are alive that never heard of God or the Bible, or young children that may be too young to understand. I did not say those who where already passed away. Im sorry maybe i misread the person i quoted.

99hatch

07-01-2008, 06:58 PM

Kind of ironic when you hear people proclaim about all the evidence they have then, huh?

Faith is a touchy subject, as is religion in itself. Organized religion, to me, is flawed beyond repair. Even if I find my faith, I want no part of a church or congregation. Is that bad? Probably, but I have a general distaste for people in general and the religious hypocrisy that's abound doesn't help. If I'm going to find my faith, then I'll find it in good time and under my own conditions.

Man i feel you on this sometimes. I was part of a church my whole life, grew up in the youth group, etc......Not till about 3 years ago did i actually believe 100% and feel God and know i was in his presence. The church i was at seemed more involved in traditions than actually getting closer with God, or maybe it was just me at that church. But at my new Church it is completely different. When they welcome you with open arms and I am yet to meet a person that was hypocritical or there for the wrong reasons. I guess i just needed to change it up and experience things i have never done before, but God really spoke with me, the first day i was there. You could feel God was really speaking through the preacher as well.

I do think since you feel you have read the Bible and you know there is a God. There evidence is all around you. I promise you, if you sit down and try to truly reach out to him, you will know he is there as well. Some say, well you have to have Faith, yes you do have to have faith, but faith is not just trying to believe something that is not there. Faith is knowing its there and Knowing that you can trust God no matter what. No matter the situation he can handle it and will not let you falter when you have him on your side.

I will give you an example. A friend of mine enlightened me by showing me a few verses, that with Gods help, and 100% faith that you can go without getting sickness in your body.

Exodus 23:24-26

24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces. 25 Worship the LORD your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you, 26 and none will miscarry or be barren in your land. I will give you a full life span.

Matthew 4:23 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=4&verse=23&version=31&context=verse)

[ Jesus Heals the Sick ] Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people.

Matthew 4:22-24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=4&verse=22&end_verse=24&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=4&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 9:35 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=9&verse=35&version=31&context=verse)

[ The Workers Are Few ] Jesus went through all the towns and villages, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness.

Matthew 9:34-36 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=9&verse=34&end_verse=36&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 9 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=9&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 10:1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=1&version=31&context=verse)

[ Jesus Sends Out the Twelve ] He called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out evil spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.

Matthew 10:1-3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 10 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Luke 4:40 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=4&verse=40&version=31&context=verse)

When the sun was setting, the people brought to Jesus all who had various kinds of sickness, and laying his hands on each one, he healed them.

Luke 4:39-41 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=4&verse=39&end_verse=41&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Luke 4 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=4&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
If you dont speak it upon yourself (dont profess being sick, as God says the tounge is quite powerful,) and belive 100% God will not let you get sick. Jesus sent out the Disiples to cure every disease and sickness. I can honestly profess i have not been sick in over 2 years since beliveing in God and letting him take this away from me. Not even a cold. If ever i get the felling that some sickness might be coming on to me, i pray for healing and dont speak anything apon myself. This is the honest truth.

Kelly

07-02-2008, 08:10 AM

If you dont speak it upon yourself (dont profess being sick, as God says the tounge is quite powerful,) and belive 100% God will not let you get sick. Jesus sent out the Disiples to cure every disease and sickness. I can honestly profess i have not been sick in over 2 years since beliveing in God and letting him take this away from me. Not even a cold. If ever i get the felling that some sickness might be coming on to me, i pray for healing and dont speak anything apon myself. This is the honest truth.

I totally believe that you have "Power in your words". If you constatly speak negatively, satan trives off of that I believe and you can bring things upon yourself. One preacher said he constantly says "I am well & wonderfly blessed & highly favored of God". Gotta speak positive even when things look bad. However, I have seen many God fearing Christians die with Cancer. I don't understand why, but life happens. Just gotta be prepared.

Sammich

07-02-2008, 08:16 AM

time and unforeseen occurences...

Kelly

07-02-2008, 08:26 AM

...?

Sammich

07-02-2008, 08:40 AM

However, I have seen many God fearing Christians die with Cancer. I don't understand why, but life happens. Just gotta be prepared.

time and unforeseen occurences...

BEFALL US ALL

ECCL.

scottyb

07-02-2008, 10:15 AM

Faith is a touchy subject, as is religion in itself.

i feel there's alot of truth to this. personally, i look at faith as a condition, wavering between doubt and certainty all the time. the search for truth reveals doubts (and of course sometimes further strengthens current beliefs) and through that process knowledge is gained. knowledge leads to greater understanding, and greater certainty. i think this process is part of the human condition and is natural.

in my opinion faith can be interpretted as openly as the scriptures themselves. anyone at anytime can be at different points in their spiritual journey (if you want to call it that.). the important thing is to keep educating yourself.

99hatch

07-02-2008, 10:51 AM

I totally believe that you have "Power in your words". If you constatly speak negatively, satan trives off of that I believe and you can bring things upon yourself. One preacher said he constantly says "I am well & wonderfly blessed & highly favored of God". Gotta speak positive even when things look bad. However, I have seen many God fearing Christians die with Cancer. I don't understand why, but life happens. Just gotta be prepared.

I have to, but you also must have faith that God is going to take care of it. And dont speak it upon yourself. I had a good friend who was very much a Christian die this spring from cancer at the age of 30. But you cant go around telling everyone you have cancer because that is speaking it upon yourself. Your basically admitting that you have it, as apposed to saying, im fine and God has healed me. Also i think being in the hospital and having all your family around you crying, waiting for you to die does not help. You must have 100% faith that God has it under control.

JDMEK18

07-02-2008, 03:15 PM

I agree!! this is a touchy area cause it takes faith and no doubt!! to overcome issues like this.

Like your friend (I'm sorry for your loss) that had cancer!
Its actually two different realities - its just which one do you believe and hold onto.
If you believe you have cancer and keep telling yourself you have cancer and your dieing then ...
But if you hold on to the reality that God has cured you then...

But I can't imagine how hard something like this is and these are the things that test your faith like crazy and most of us don't want to be tested like this..
"If you have the faith the size of a mustard seed (then smallest seed) then you can say to this mountain (your issue, disease, etc..) move and it shall be moved"

But God has his will and we have ours.. and thats what makes this different at times..

Its like that girl that got shot and killed because she said she believed in Jesus or the missionaries that get killed and raped for preaching the word of God.. Its not magic - you can't say Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and you'll never get hurt, killed, or avoid any bad things happening to you but, on the other hand you can say Jesus, Jesus, Jesus and be covered from all these things.. It's hard to explain but bad things do happen to saved people that have 100% faith in God!! Its part of the curse (adam and eve) and even though the blood of Jesus saves us eternally & physically - God's will, our choices, and I'm sure 1,000 other things come in to factor with issues like this..

blindF

07-03-2008, 02:54 PM

i feel there's alot of truth to this. personally, i look at faith as a condition, wavering between doubt and certainty all the time. the search for truth reveals doubts (and of course sometimes further strengthens current beliefs) and through that process knowledge is gained. knowledge leads to greater understanding, and greater certainty. i think this process is part of the human condition and is natural.

in my opinion faith can be interpretted as openly as the scriptures themselves. anyone at anytime can be at different points in their spiritual journey (if you want to call it that.). the important thing is to keep educating yourself.
My point of view on faith is this; I have faith that I'll get my paycheck this week. I have faith that I'll make it to work safely, I have faith that I'll still have my job come Monday morning. I have faith on realistic things, when it comes to magical events, I refuse to take it as faith.

You and me both have different views on this, which is why we both continue gaining knowledge on the subject. We both disagree, thus causing us to go out there and gain a little more. To help our beliefs and to give us a better understanding of both sides of the card.

ShooterMcGavin

07-07-2008, 12:57 PM

I believe in a God or higher power, I just believe that organized religion is hideously flawed. Primarily Christianity.
if that's true then Ran != Agnostic ;)

Ran

07-07-2008, 02:57 PM

if that's true then Ran != Agnostic ;)How do you figure?

Agnostic - A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown.

Atheist - Rejects all religious belief and denies the existence of God or supernatural power.

I don't reject the idea altogether, but I do think there is a higher power. Am I commited to that belief? Not really. I am very open to fact that there could be no God, gods, or afterlife. I just tend to sway towards the religious front.

ShooterMcGavin

07-07-2008, 03:12 PM

How do you figure?

Agnostic - A person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown.

Atheist - Rejects all religious belief and denies the existence of God or supernatural power.

I don't reject the idea altogether, but I do think there is a higher power. Am I commited to that belief? Not really. I am very open to fact that there could be no God, gods, or afterlife. I just tend to sway towards the religious front.
you sir need to relearn the CORRECT AND COMPLETE definition of an agnostic.

agnostic according to MB:
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something

in either case, you just said in an earlier post that you do believe there IS a god, which earned you an ejection from the agnostic ballpark :goodjob:

Ran

07-07-2008, 03:19 PM

in either case, you just said in an earlier post that you do believe there IS a god, which earned you an ejection from the agnostic ballpark :goodjob:It is my belief that is some sort of higher, but I'm not against being proved wrong since it hasn't be proven as fact. I judge cases both for and against religious beliefs. To be honest, there's as much going for religion as there is against it. It is my belief, or suspicion rather, that there is some form of God, higher power, afterlife or whatever. However, I am not firm on the idea and am open to adjusting my perception should the evidence present itself. My previous statements may have been misleading in my stance since it's a bit difficult to depict properly without seeming to prefer one side over the over.

If you wanted to, I suppose you could refer to me as "spiritual" maybe? But even then, I'm not sure.

ShooterMcGavin

07-07-2008, 03:32 PM

It is my belief that is some sort of higher, but I'm not against being proved wrong since it hasn't be proven as fact. I judge cases both for and against religious beliefs. To be honest, there's as much going for religion as there is against it. It is my belief, or suspicion rather, that there is some form of God, higher power, afterlife or whatever. However, I am not firm on the idea and am open to adjusting my perception should the evidence present itself. My previous statements may have been misleading in my stance since it's a bit difficult to depict properly without seeming to prefer one side over the over.

If you wanted to, I suppose you could refer to me as "spiritual" maybe? But even then, I'm not sure.
lol, i'm just giving you grief. i understand the difficulty in truly explaining ones beliefs and being able to categorize it as i too was agnostic for a while until my beliefs/views shifted even more. now i don't categorize myself as one anymore.

Ran

07-07-2008, 03:33 PM

lol, i'm just giving you grief. i understand the difficulty in truly explaining ones beliefs and being able to categorize it as i too was agnostic for a while until my beliefs/views shifted even more. now i don't categorize myself as one anymore.I figured as such, but it's good to explain it clearly anyway.

What are you now? If you don't mind me asking.

ShooterMcGavin

07-07-2008, 11:57 PM

I figured as such, but it's good to explain it clearly anyway.

What are you now? If you don't mind me asking.
uncategorized/uncategorizable...just still searching ya know?

Jecht

07-08-2008, 12:25 AM

I don't really have much to contribute to this thread, but my stance on all of this is that it is best to just allow everyone to believe what they wish regardless if you believe it is wrong/flawed or not.

Humphrizzle

07-08-2008, 04:09 AM

99hatch

07-08-2008, 07:09 AM

you sir need to relearn the CORRECT AND COMPLETE definition of an agnostic.

agnostic according to MB:
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something

in either case, you just said in an earlier post that you do believe there IS a god, which earned you an ejection from the agnostic ballpark :goodjob:

To me Agnostic is not a believe. It is just a cop out for someone who cant make up their mind. Im not trying to call you out personally, im just saying that people made up Agnostic like it was a religion, but really its just saying you have no clue what you want to believe but you dont want to be called and athiest or a christian for that matter. But Agnostics truely have no belief. That is whats aggravating to me about those who claim Agnostic. If you are unsure in your beliefs i can understand that, everyone has doubt because you dont know 100%. As humans we like proof that we can see/hear/touch, and everything in life is not that way. To me as a Christian i feel that i have proof, although its not something i can necessarly see/hear/touch, but it something i can see through my spiritual side. You have to feel it.

To me there is way too much proof in the world to prove that there is a GOD. You can look at soo much in the world and see it plainly. Think about things like, Pregnacy for instance. How could we go from a sperm to a baby in 9 months just by chances. So one day we are one cell organisims and then later down the road we are having babies through lifes cycle. Look at the eco system how everything is so incredibly complex yet all fits together perfectly. This is not just because some dot happend to explode and dust particles formed humans, etc. Even at first if you dont want to believe in Christianity and Jesus, you almost have to believe there is a God. Someone had to create this world that is so perfectly integrated.

99hatch

07-08-2008, 07:25 AM

The bible is a book of metaphors made to keep believers in line during life.

I have no problem with the Christians' beliefs but there are so many versions the thought of an argument over who's right and wrong is ridiculous to me.

I was raised Southern Baptist. I stopped attending church at 17. I quickly realized that church was not for me. I do not like the references to how much Jesus was in pain for me. I do not like the representation of a man being tortured for other people. It is a sick representation of a religion.

Like Easter: I went to church with my Mother when I was 16 because she loves church for some reason. There was an Easter Sunday play going on which included all the disciples and Jesus, bleeding, dying and hanging on a cross. It reminded me of how gruesome the religion actually is.

Then another church service with my dad: The preacher gets up, starts yelling and screaming about god and how he's going to strike us dead in the book of revelations. I dont believe a pure god would have done such a horrible thing.

Noah's ark: God killed a bunch of people instead of guiding them because they were too "bad".

Cain and Abel: Brother killed other brother because of jealousy.

uhh.. THE WHOLE BOOK OF REVELATIONS!!!

Judas: he's a backstabber and a liar

I am now agnostic meaning I do believe there is a higher power but I see no proof or real hard evidence to back up said higher being.

I also believe it's stupid to say cuss words and sex will make you go to hell.

It also says that God Grants everyman free will. If he didnt we would all be mindless robots working for him. Thats why you have the choice to belief or not to believe. There is alot of Sin in the world and alot of people in the world and in the Bible that have committed Sin. As a matter of fact everyone sins. Every believer, or non-believer sins. God said all sin is equal. There is no divisions of sin. Show me where in the bible it says if you cuss or have sex you are going straight to hell. It doesnt.

What it does say is he who does not believe in God and Jesus and whom does not ask for forgiveness of your sins will be going to hell. God is not asking you to be perfect. He is basicly just asking you to take responsiblitiy for your own actions and work toward being a better person, and lead others toward him.

Ill tell you one thing that is funny. In the world today people are offended by Christians. (not everyone of course, but there is a large %). When a Christian person comes around they think, ohh the party killer is here, or ohh he is here to tell me how im living wrong and condem my life. However if someone is a devil worshiper or doesnt believe in anything, people seem to have no problem with them. Thats quite odd when you look at the fact that true Christians are just out to help people in alot of different ways. The world has turned into such a rough place that people expect you to hurt them or try to scam them rather that help them.

I know about the whole hipocritical stamp people like to label Christians, but as God said no man is without Sin. So a Christian that sins is not a hypocryte but he is just a man (or woman). But Christians are just trying to turn their life in the right direction. No one is perfect, but you should be striving to be, in every aspect of your lives. Christian or non Christian.

Ran

07-08-2008, 08:15 AM

To me Agnostic is not a believe. It is just a cop out for someone who cant make up their mind. Im not trying to call you out personally, im just saying that people made up Agnostic like it was a religion, but really its just saying you have no clue what you want to believe but you dont want to be called and athiest or a christian for that matter. But Agnostics truely have no belief. That is whats aggravating to me about those who claim Agnostic. If you are unsure in your beliefs i can understand that, everyone has doubt because you dont know 100%. As humans we like proof that we can see/hear/touch, and everything in life is not that way.Nobody ever claimed Agnosticism to be a religion. It's an identifier or classification if anything. By your argument, you say that it's okay to have doubt since we're human, but it's aggrivating that agnostics have this doubt. That's either really confusing or I'm mixing your words up. :???:

To say that agnostics have no belief is kind of generalizing everyone who is questioning the supernatural. For a lot of people it's not a cop out. We're not Christian but we're not Atheist. We're undecided due to a lack of evidence for either argument. It's just a term to idenify our stance while we pursue answers.

I'm sure you weren't trying to be offensive, I just wanted to try and clarify.

99hatch

07-08-2008, 08:24 AM

Yeah i was thinking about it after i typed it and i didnt mean to say religion. I just mean that the term Agnostic is kinda a cop out. People have doubts and they dont want to stand on one side of the fence or the other. But i have just known some people that said they were agnostic and meant it like it was their belief system (this is what i was implying not religion sorry for that). IMO Agnostic is a belief that you have no beliefs. Know what i mean. I wasnt trying to say that people who are unsure are copping out but more the term in general. Like it says in the definitionthat was posted earlier:

agnostic according to MB:
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something

Blitanicle99

07-08-2008, 09:33 AM

I read part of the first page to be hoenst, but I did have some things to add.

First off, true christains don't really refer to themselves as "christains". Now its supposed to be "followers of christ" mainly because of all the fake people and things of that nature. It seems to weed out the ones in church that just come to show their neighbors and friends they are good people but have absolutely not reason to be there.

Second, reguarding hell/external fire breathing never ending pain blah blah blah... You can find this quote EVERYWHERE... "The greatest story every told was that the devil did NOT exist". And it is spoke of many times in the bible (I dont feel like quoting, I was at a concert last night and massively hung over) that there will be plenty of misleading things/misguides and what-not. Look at the Zeitgheist movie, go ahead and actually research that crap. Its all BS. Atleast the religion part. I had a couple friends of mine research it for me. Most of the rest of the movie is dubbed over and if you do any video editing, its very poorly done.
I believe that movie to be one the misleading things spoke of in the bible, it really affected a lot of people and it ****ed with me a little bit, Ill admit. But then again, it more than reassured my faith when I found out the truth in the movie because I realized how hard someone tried to break people of it and failed horribly.

99hatch

07-08-2008, 09:39 AM

Im a true Christian and I and all my friends call ourselves Christians. Thats the only word i know for it. But I agree, it does mean follower of Christ.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 10:40 AM

Ran

07-08-2008, 10:47 AM

so basically that means you lie, cheat, steal, and sin like a motherfvcker in general but repent at the end of the day right?No need to pick a fight Wayne.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 10:49 AM

The bible is a book of metaphors made to keep believers in line during life.

quoted for OPINION, neither fact nor truth though.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 10:52 AM

To me Agnostic is not a believe. It is just a cop out for someone who cant make up their mind. Im not trying to call you out personally, im just saying that people made up Agnostic like it was a religion, but really its just saying you have no clue what you want to believe but you dont want to be called and athiest or a christian for that matter. But Agnostics truely have no belief. That is whats aggravating to me about those who claim Agnostic. If you are unsure in your beliefs i can understand that, everyone has doubt because you dont know 100%. As humans we like proof that we can see/hear/touch, and everything in life is not that way. To me as a Christian i feel that i have proof, although its not something i can necessarly see/hear/touch, but it something i can see through my spiritual side. You have to feel it.

lol of course agnosticism isn't a RELIGION, there ain't sh*t to follow or praise/worship genius. it is however a belief that's no more crazy than the other beliefs out there. to call it a cop out is absolutely ridiculous, since when did it become a cop out to openly admit that you aren't sure about something and may still be seeking out answers?

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 10:53 AM

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 10:55 AM

I know about the whole hipocritical stamp people like to label Christians, but as God said no man is without Sin. So a Christian that sins is not a hypocryte but he is just a man (or woman). But Christians are just trying to turn their life in the right direction. No one is perfect, but you should be striving to be, in every aspect of your lives. Christian or non Christian.
correct, but a christian that sins like every other man or woman doesn't need to be out there openly preaching like they are w/o sin, that they are somehow above their "pagan brothers".

99hatch

07-08-2008, 10:56 AM

so basically that means you lie, cheat, steal, and sin like a motherfvcker in general but repent at the end of the day right?

Well Repenting for you sin is asking for forgiveness and trying to live your life for the better. I have made mistakes in the past but you have to try to never do them again. Its not like a go out on a murder spree and steal cars everyday then say well as long as i say im sorry everything is gravy. You ask for forgiveness and then you strive to never do what you did again.

99hatch

07-08-2008, 10:57 AM

correct, but a christian that sins like every other man or woman doesn't need to be out there openly preaching like they are w/o sin, that they are somehow above their "pagan brothers".

Who is preaching like they are without sin? I have said several times i have made mistakes, everyone sins. EVERYONE

99hatch

07-08-2008, 10:59 AM

it's Agnostic is just a term than i can easily say Christian is just a term as well, a cop out for those who want to be assured "eternal salvation" yet who are oftentimes the most hypocritical and judgmental.

Except that Christianity has an entire culture of beliefs that come with it. But Agnostic is not a belief, its the lack of beliefs.

99hatch

07-08-2008, 11:06 AM

so basically that means you lie, cheat, steal, and sin like a motherfvcker in general but repent at the end of the day right?

here is the definition of the word repent, just to show you. Especially check out #2.

re·pent1 http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png // </a>", "6"); interfaceflash.addParam("loop", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("quality", "high"); interfaceflash.addParam("menu", "false"); interfaceflash.addParam("salign", "t"); interfaceflash.addParam("FlashVars", "soundUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fcache.lexico.com%2Fdictionar y%2Faudio%2Fluna%2FR02%2FR0203900.mp3"); interfaceflash.write(); // ]]> http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif (http://dictionary.reference.com/audio.html/lunaWAV/R02/R0203900) Audio Help (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/audio.html) /rɪˈpɛnt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation ("]Pronunciation Key[/url] - pent[/b]] Show IPA Pronunciation ("]Pronunciation Key - [url=") –verb (used without object) 1.to feel sorry, self-reproachful, or contrite for past conduct; regret or be conscience-stricken about a past action, attitude, etc. (often fol. by of): He repented after his thoughtless act. 2.to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 11:07 AM

Well Repenting for you sin is asking for forgiveness and trying to live your life for the better. I have made mistakes in the past but you have to try to never do them again. Its not like a go out on a murder spree and steal cars everyday then say well as long as i say im sorry everything is gravy. You ask for forgiveness and then you strive to never do what you did again.
so let me get this straight, the christian god creates an imperfect man (even though it's in his own image) that is created w/urges and thoughts and temptations (coming from one of his own fallen angels that he lets roam about the world) to push man to sin.....yet all he has to do is ask forgiveness, but at the same time try not to do it again.....sound complex and confusing? well that's bc it is, essentially it just sounds like a huge mindfvck to me, a giant game where man are the actors and stage playing out some day time soap opera while god sits back and watches.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 11:07 AM

Who is preaching like they are without sin? I have said several times i have made mistakes, everyone sins. EVERYONE
A LOT OF SELF PROCLAIMED CHRISTIANS PREACH AS IF THEY WERE W/O SIN, that's why there's a giant HYPOCRITE label often associated with christians.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 11:09 AM

Except that Christianity has an entire culture of beliefs that come with it. But Agnostic is not a belief, its the lack of beliefs.
:lmfao: so the BELIEF that there aren't any religious beliefs is a lack of beliefs? i do believe you just successfully duped yourself! :goodjob:

Ran

07-08-2008, 11:11 AM

so let me get this straight, the christian god creates an imperfect man (even though it's in his own image) that is created w/urges and thoughts and temptations (coming from one of his own fallen angels that he lets roam about the world) to push man to sin.....yet all he has to do is ask forgiveness, but at the same time try not to do it again.....sound complex and confusing? well that's bc it is, essentially it just sounds like a huge mindfvck to me, a giant game where man are the actors and stage playing out some day time soap opera while god sits back and watches.Actually, you're wrong right off the bat. God created a perfect man in his image. Imperfect came when Adam took the fruit of knowledge. Prior to that there was no lust, temptation, ect...

As for repentance, it's all based on sincerity. One doesn't go murder someone then go to confessional and all is clear. Sincerity of heart is everything. We can't see that, but God can and that's what makes the difference.

Just playing devil's advocate.

99hatch

07-08-2008, 11:21 AM

:lmfao: so the BELIEF that there aren't any religious beliefs is a lack of beliefs? i do believe you just successfully duped yourself! :goodjob:

No if you read the definition that YOU posted earlier. It states that Agnostics dont believe in either. They dont believe there is a God but then again they dont believe their isnt. They are just waiting for proof either way right? Well that is not a belief, that is merely a question. I belief that you have duped yourself!

99hatch

07-08-2008, 11:24 AM

Actually, your wrong right off the bat. God created a perfect man in his image. Imperfect came when Adam took the fruit of knowledge. Prior to that there was no lust, temptation, ect...

As for repentance, it's all based on sincerity. One doesn't go murder someone then go to confessional and all is clear. Sincerity of heart is everything. We can't see that, but God can and that's what makes the difference.

Exactly on both accounts. Just like it says in the defintion of repent. .to feel such sorrow for sin or fault as to be disposed to change one's life for the better; be penitent. So you want to change your life for the better. Be sincere about it.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 12:19 PM

Actually, you're wrong right off the bat. God created a perfect man in his image. Imperfect came when Adam took the fruit of knowledge. Prior to that there was no lust, temptation, ect...

As for repentance, it's all based on sincerity. One doesn't go murder someone then go to confessional and all is clear. Sincerity of heart is everything. We can't see that, but God can and that's what makes the difference.

Just playing devil's advocate.
fair enough, but at the same time, what's w/the setup from the get go? 1) why have the tree/apple/snake there in the first place? 2) if he created a PERFECT man, then how was it that he made such an imperfect decision to take the apple? i mean is that saying that god, in all his perfectness could also stumble and make a mistake?

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 12:21 PM

No if you read the definition that YOU posted earlier. It states that Agnostics dont believe in either. They dont believe there is a God but then again they dont believe their isnt. They are just waiting for proof either way right? Well that is not a belief, that is merely a question. I belief that you have duped yourself!
wtf? you clearly do not understand the definition that's been posted. just bc you can't commit to believing in the existence or nonexistence of a god doesn't mean you don't BELIEVE in your own BELIEF that you don't know.

btw, i'm certain that you don't understand the difference between BELIEF and BELIEVE.

Ran

07-08-2008, 12:30 PM

fair enough, but at the same time, what's w/the setup from the get go? 1) why have the tree/apple/snake there in the first place? 2) if he created a PERFECT man, then how was it that he made such an imperfect decision to take the apple? i mean is that saying that god, in all his perfectness could also stumble and make a mistake?That's my question as well. Some chalk it up to God wanting us to have free will. Not sure about that, but that's the speculation. As the story goes, Adam made his decision after being persuaded by Eve who had been deceived by Satan.

99hatch

07-08-2008, 12:44 PM

be·lieve
verb, -lieved, -liev·ing. –verb (used without object)
1.to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so: Only if one believes in something can one act purposefully. –verb (used with object)

be·lief http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png
Show IPA Pronunciation (http://Show%20IPA%20Pronunciation) –noun
1.confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.

2. something believed; an opinion or conviction

They mean the exact same thing. Now you are just trying to attack me based on my vocabulary usage. Why dont you just stay on topic here.

Yes based on the definition you gave it shows you have no belief in why we are in existence. Plus if you look at the defenition of belief it says something believed: an opinion or conviction, but in your definition of Agnostic:

agnostic according to MB:
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something

How can you have a belief in something that you dont have an opinion on. which is basicly stating you dont have any belief on. Its saying you dont know and hold no opinion on whether there is a God.

99hatch

07-08-2008, 12:49 PM

That's my question as well. Some chalk it up to God wanting us to have free will. Not sure about that, but that's the speculation. As the story goes, Adam made his decision after being persuaded by Eve who had been deceived by Satan.

Well we are created in God's Image and he has Free Will. If we didnt have free will what would be the point of living. We could just be forced to do whatever he seems fit for us. He has given you the opportunity to live your life the way you see fit, but he wants you to also live in celebration for him. If no free will, we wouldnt be able to do the things we love to do, like fix up cars for example, instead we would be mindless slaves having to do whatever was thrust upon us.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 01:03 PM

That's my question as well. Some chalk it up to God wanting us to have free will. Not sure about that, but that's the speculation. As the story goes, Adam made his decision after being persuaded by Eve who had been deceived by Satan.
yes i recall the story, but like i was insinuating earlier, having the tree, the fruit and satan there in the garden to begin with seems like a "test" to me...free will or not god was clearly "experimenting" to see how man and woman would react no?

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 01:10 PM

They mean the exact same thing. Now you are just trying to attack me based on my vocabulary usage. Why dont you just stay on topic here.

i'm not attacking anyone, i'm just pointing out you clearly have issues differing between the two when composing sentences. it's hard for me to take someone seriously in a serious discussion about a serious topic if they can't even use such simple words correctly.

Yes based on the definition you gave it shows you have no belief in why we are in existence. Plus if you look at the defenition of belief it says something believed: an opinion or conviction, but in your definition of Agnostic:

agnostic according to MB:
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something

How can you have a belief in something that you dont have an opinion on. which is basicly stating you dont have any belief on. Its saying you dont know and hold no opinion on whether there is a God.

clearly you're trying to get into a technical discussion of semantics here and word usage. i will be simple and brief and state only that just bc one might not be COMMITTED to believing in something, that doesn't mean they don't AT ALL. i'd further debate the meanings of words such as commit or opinion or conviction but i hardly see a point in discussing semantics and pragmatics with someone who hasn't demonstrated a firm grasp of the english language, no offense.

Ran

07-08-2008, 01:32 PM

yes i recall the story, but like i was insinuating earlier, having the tree, the fruit and satan there in the garden to begin with seems like a "test" to me...free will or not god was clearly "experimenting" to see how man and woman would react no?Again, not entirely sure. According to what I've read, God wants man to have free will and the desire to love and worship him. If there was no sense of competition in which to distract our worship of him, it'd be rather pointless. That's where the tree and fruits comes in. It's here that I get lost. From what I understand, God is supposed to be perfect. But if he wants us to worship him, then that means he is longing for something. Isn't the feeling of want or desire a human trait and a direct reaction to neglect or deprivaty? You would think that God, in all of his perfection, would be lacking such imperfect feelings. :dunno:

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 02:18 PM

Well we are created in God's Image and he has Free Will. If we didnt have free will what would be the point of living. We could just be forced to do whatever he seems fit for us. He has given you the opportunity to live your life the way you see fit, but he wants you to also live in celebration for him. If no free will, we wouldnt be able to do the things we love to do, like fix up cars for example, instead we would be mindless slaves having to do whatever was thrust upon us.
considering that humans have had free reign to do whatever it is they please since our existence, it wouldn't give the bible much credibility if it was written that we DIDN'T have free will...if you catch my drift

Blitanicle99

07-08-2008, 02:20 PM

You can contradict it left and right, up and down, but it just comes down to faith. I am no expert by any means, but certain things you realize in life just connect and not a book nor someone can explain it. They can merely guide you in a direction, you must pursue it and figure out what you really think, not what other opinions are. You are your opinion, you are yourself, not someone else, nor their opinions.

In a nutshell, no matter what I or anyone else will say, it won't do much for you. You need to figure out what YOU think. You can sit on millions of websites, watch videos on youtube, sit in church and listen to the pastor, but until you have that moment of reckoning, its all meaningless.

99hatch

07-08-2008, 02:27 PM

Either way man, you obviously have no clue how to speak English since belief and believe are 2 totally different words as i gave you the definitions there. But if you wish to debate the topic at hand, then i am more than willing. I did not think you resort to grammatical correction, it seems you are just trying to argue no matter the point. Since you started the 7 page accusing me of lieing, cheating, stealing and then just throwing a willy nilly apology out there and all my sins are forgiven.

I did not say you were Agnostic, i was merely pointing out that the term Agnostic is someone who cannot commit to a belief. So how can the term be used as a system of what one may believe, when it is not a belief in anything at all.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 02:28 PM

Again, not entirely sure. According to what I've read, God wants man to have free will and the desire to love and worship him. If there was no sense of competition in which to distract our worship of him, it'd be rather pointless. That's where the tree and fruits comes in. It's here that I get lost. From what I understand, God is supposed to be perfect. But if he wants us to worship him, then that means he is longing for something. Isn't the feeling of want or desire a human trait and a direct reaction to neglect or deprivaty? You would think that God, in all of his perfection, would be lacking such imperfect feelings. :dunno:
i know exactly what you're trying to say, and all i can add is that at that point of trying to understand, we might lose ability to define and comprehend something which can be so much greater than us and what our minds can fathom.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 02:33 PM

In a nutshell, no matter what I or anyone else will say, it won't do much for you. You need to figure out what YOU think. You can sit on millions of websites, watch videos on youtube, sit in church and listen to the pastor, but until you have that moment of reckoning, its all meaningless.
i'm sorry but that's where you're wrong. without the countless debates and discussions i've had with both religious and nonreligious friends and acquaintances, i would not have gotten to where i am today.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 02:36 PM

99hatch

07-08-2008, 02:41 PM

It's here that I get lost. From what I understand, God is supposed to be perfect. But if he wants us to worship him, then that means he is longing for something. Isn't the feeling of want or desire a human trait and a direct reaction to neglect or deprivaty? You would think that God, in all of his perfection, would be lacking such imperfect feelings. :dunno:

I dont really see it that way. I see it more along the lines that desire is a human trait that we all have. It is not a negative trait that would make one imperfect. Do you not have desire to see your wife if you are married, or desire to want anything really. I see desire more like passion for something. God desires his Children to love him and also spread the word for him to those who dont know, or dont believe.

99hatch

07-08-2008, 02:45 PM

Im a true Christian and I and all my friends call ourselves Christians. Thats the only word i know for it. But I agree, it does mean follower of Christ.

so basically that means you lie, cheat, steal, and sin like a motherfvcker in general but repent at the end of the day right?

you quoted what i said about being a true Christian and put it in bold, then said the previous statement. How is that not directed at me I ask you?

Also Belief and Believe are the same word with the exception one is used as a noun and one is used as a verb. They have the same definition.

Ran

07-08-2008, 02:46 PM

i know exactly what you're trying to say, and all i can add is that at that point of trying to understand, we might lose ability to define and comprehend something which can be so much greater than us and what our minds can fathom.I've considered that as well. It's yet another road block along the way for me.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 03:06 PM

[/i]you quoted what i said about being a true Christian and put it in bold, then said the previous statement. How is that not directed at me I ask you?

you my friend have clearly never heard of sarcasm...

Also Belief and Believe are the same word with the exception one is used as a noun and one is used as a verb. They have the same definition.
bravo, so where's the difficulty in using them properly again if it's that simple? :thinking:

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 03:06 PM

I've considered that as well. It's yet another road block along the way for me.
you could always just have a little faith... ;) :D

JDMEK18

07-08-2008, 03:08 PM

man

07-08-2008, 03:33 PM

only the ignorant think they have "answers"

99hatch

07-08-2008, 03:52 PM

and nowhere did i accuse YOU of doing anything, other than not being able to use believe and belief correctly that is ;)

And you my friend cannot clearly see that you are wrong, you did accuse me. But its all good, i just like to defend myself when someone criticizes me.

Ok i read back and see you caught me in a typo over one word bravo, i used one when i meant to use the other. You should become a private detective.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 04:15 PM

And you my friend cannot clearly see that you are wrong, you did accuse me. But its all good, i just like to defend myself when someone criticizes me.
if you still honestly believe that then you clearly do not catch sarcasm very well at all, bet you have a dry sense of humor too huh? in either case, don't flatter yourself, there are entirely too many supposed christians to criticize than just yourself ;)

Ok i read back and see you caught me in a typo over one word bravo, i used one when i meant to use the other. You should become a private detective.
how do you know i'm not? :ninja:

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 04:17 PM

only the ignorant think they have "answers"
or arrogant :goodjob:

Blitanicle99

07-08-2008, 04:32 PM

or arrogant :goodjob:

Sorry I didnt quote the right post. But your saying that your point of view came from others and your discussions with them?

I will completely admit that it took lots of conversations with friends and certain things happening in my life to even consider faith. It led in a direction but that "leap of faith" was not from outside persuasion. It was my own, and no one elses.

I guess what I am trying to say is, I am not trying to persude you into anything or sell you on something, just merely explain to you that you win in the fact that you can argue all day and night about this and bash it up. However, all that turns out to be is simple conversation, and that will by no means, shake true faith.

True faith is such on a higher level than simple opinion on what you think. True faith is not even realizing that you will go blatently out in public and if people bring up religion aspects you go and tell them about yours and how you feel, rather than argue in the first place and bash it or just sit quiet about it and ponder about it in the back of your head.

Back in the day, I would have NEVER posted in a thread like this. I would have NEVER voiced my beliefs, but I do now and with faith. I do not care that people know where I truely stand with god. That doesn't bother me, and Ive realized, truely realized that the people that bash it, question it, try to dismember it, are only scared of the truth.

man

07-08-2008, 04:33 PM

or arrogant :goodjob:

Also true

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 04:46 PM

I will completely admit that it took lots of conversations with friends and certain things happening in my life to even consider faith. It led in a direction but that "leap of faith" was not from outside persuasion. It was my own, and no one elses.
:goodjob:

Back in the day, I would have NEVER posted in a thread like this. I would have NEVER voiced my beliefs, but I do now and with faith. I do not care that people know where I truely stand with god. That doesn't bother me, and Ive realized, truely realized that the people that bash it, question it, try to dismember it, are only scared of the truth.
that's quite a generalization there but it's your prerogative to have your own opinions.

Blitanicle99

07-08-2008, 04:56 PM

I don't even remotely understand your opinion or anything going on in this thread than my own posts.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 05:05 PM

I don't even remotely understand your opinion or anything going on in this thread than my own posts.
you don't understand my opinion on what?

and i can't figure out what you were trying to say there at the end...think you might've lost a word.

tron

07-08-2008, 05:39 PM

Blitanicle99

07-08-2008, 07:25 PM

you don't understand my opinion on what?

and i can't figure out what you were trying to say there at the end...think you might've lost a word.

I dunno, I havent really read this thread much, just Rans posts because he started it and a few of the arguements brought up. I didn't know where you stand.

Lucky DAWG

07-08-2008, 07:38 PM

you should always post the scripture for reference with things like this....

as for easter and christmas... yeah, you are exactly right on they are pagan holidays... some priest or roman catholic "leader" of some sort (i don't remember who) decided to start having christmas and easter on whatever those pagan holidays were so that it would look and appear like "everyone" was celebrating christ... (i could be a bit off on this... but i know i'm pretty close to the reasoning)

most christians know this.... if not they def need to...

but you've also gotta remember... those pagan holidays are kinda long gone and forgotten about... the days that everyone celebrate christmas and easter now are just that... christmas and easter...

do you celebrate either of them????

if so... why??? your agnostic....

further more... if you do, and aren't celebrating them for what most christians do... are you going back to the paganistic(- is that even a word? lol) roots of the holidays yourself?....

no... you're just happy to have some time off work get some extra presents and what not...

i'd be more than willing to bet God is pretty pleased with the fact that christians/catholics.. turned what were once pagan holidays/rituals into two different days of the year that even non christians are basically forced to think about Him/Jesus......

That really bothers me.

Catholicism was the first widely organized Denomination of Christianity. Why would you put Christianity then slash Catholicism as if they were two seperate things?

I have no problem with other religions but if that is going to be necessary at all it would be Christians / Prodestant, or Christians / Methodists etc.

I don't know why other Denominations of Christianity feel the need to label us otherwise, we are all the same with different views and opinions that use the same book and same core values. Thats my :2cents: , i'm just very offended when people refer to me as something other then a Christian.

ShooterMcGavin

07-08-2008, 08:33 PM

I dunno, I havent really read this thread much, just Rans posts because he started it and a few of the arguements brought up. I didn't know where you stand.
haha, that's in large part due to the fact that i haven't really made it known where exactly i stand ;)

Blitanicle99

07-08-2008, 08:44 PM

Alright good, atleast I am not the village idiot here lol

yerrow

07-08-2008, 09:59 PM

Quick question

is the bible an actual book?....sounds like a stupid question but i was told it was a collection of books written by different people at different times in history
so how can we use scriptures from different books to prove another?

it is a small selection of books that were written many centuries after the lifetime of jesus the christ.

many times the books that tell the same stories, are at odds with one another

man

07-08-2008, 10:08 PM

it is a small selection of books that were written many centuries after the lifetime of jesus the christ.

many times the books that tell the same stories, are at odds with one another

Same thing happens with current events

Imagine if 20 people decided to write a book on the War on Terror a couple centuries from now, think they'd all say the exact same thing?

yerrow

07-08-2008, 10:27 PM

like jesus' last words?

man

07-08-2008, 10:34 PM

like jesus' last words?

Pretty much

I don't get why it's so hard to grasp. How can you expect anything to be exactly the same after hundreds of years? These are stories passed from generation to generation. It should be pretty obvious that it will change somewhat.

Blitanicle99

07-08-2008, 10:41 PM

I don't know if anyone has brought this up but do your research on this! Before the time of Christ there were stories and visions of a holy figure coming down and completing 26 (dont quote me on the number I am 90 percent positive on the number) tasks, and Jesus Christ completed every single one of them perfectly as it was said before. There were many mentions of him before he came and then obviously after.

Ran

07-09-2008, 08:29 AM

Catholicism was the first widely organized Denomination of Christianity. Why would you put Christianity then slash Catholicism as if they were two seperate things?Catholicism has been so corrupted by money and pretenses it's not even funny. It has long since been anything other than Christian.

I don't know why other Denominations of Christianity feel the need to label us otherwise, we are all the same with different views and opinions that use the same book and same core values. Thats my :2cents: , i'm just very offended when people refer to me as something other then a Christian.The initial core values being the 10 Commandments, then yes they are shared. But that's about where it ends. Extravagant ceremony, material focus, baptising babies, saints? The list of differences is endless. You're guaranteed to find fewer differences between Baptism, Presbyterian, and other protestant religions then you would between them and Catholicism. Hell, Catholics themselves tend to think themselves as seperate from traditional Christianity.

Blitanicle99

07-09-2008, 08:40 AM

Ran

07-09-2008, 08:43 AM

As I said before, you really have to look past all that. Its completely different than looking at facts and numbers.What? I don't get what you're saying here. Look past what? The religion? :???:

Mr_Mischif

07-09-2008, 08:43 AM

Well if God's name is Jehova, why did he start getting called God?

Ran

07-09-2008, 08:48 AM

Well if God's name is Jehova, why did he start getting called God?A lot of churches refer him as just "God" because they feel undeserving to approach him with his declared name. Think of it as calling President Bush "Mr.President" instead of "George." Even though the scripture says that he wants you to be close to him and to share a personal relationship, a lot of people still share the sentiment. Others are just negligent to read the Bible and think that "God" is his actual name. lol

The initial Hebrew scripture writes his name as YHWH, since the Hebrew's have no vowels. Add the proper vowels and you get Yahweh, which means "I am who I am". An appropriate translation of language will give you Jehovah for the most part.

Crazy Asian

07-09-2008, 09:31 AM

The bottom line is this: THERE IS NO J SOUND, OR A V SOUND IN THE HEBREW LANGUAGE. The Hebrew letter that is equivalent to our J is pronounced like our Y. And, the letter equivalent to our V, in Hebrew, is pronounced like a W. For example, how do you pronounce hallelujah? The J sounds like a Y right?

So, what appears on the surface to be JHVH, is properly pronounced as if it was YHWH. When you pronounce this word correctly, it sounds like Yahweh, or Yahwih, or Yahowah. I personally prefer Yahowah, however, the meaning of the name is far more important than the name, itself. The name of God ( YHWH or Yehowah ) means " I am the one who is God, the true God. " ( unlike all the false gods )

The true God has many names. YHWH is only one of them. He is also called Elohim, which relates to the plural nature of God, and also frequently refers to the God of the Northern Kingdom of Israel. He is called Adonai, meaning Lord or Ruler. He is called El-Shaddai, the God who is more than enough. He also has many names which are combinations of YHWH and various attributes of God such as YHWH Jireh ( our Provider ) YHWH Shalom, ( our Peace ) YHWH Rapha ( our Healer ) and many others

There's alot of terms for God

Crazy Asian

07-09-2008, 09:34 AM

seriousb13

07-09-2008, 10:08 AM

We'll one day see just who was right and who was wrong. If you think about it, Christians have ZERO to lose if they were "wrong". Why? Because if there is no God, NOTHING will happen when we die. If there is, WE will have something good waiting on us. What's the DOWN side again?????:thinking: :thinking: What's the DOWN side for YOU?????;) That's what YOU should be thinking about. Don't worry about Christians. They're well taken care of. Question is.......are YOU if you die today?????;) Worry about THAT. :goodjob:

I highly doubt that. They have it just as bad if not worse when you think about the real world.

metalman

07-09-2008, 10:35 AM

1) The "Trinity" (the belief that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one in the same) is NOT in the Bible. There are completely seperate.

True. However, the concept that the three function 'as one' or with one mind (or purpose) is Biblical.

2) Christmas is a pagan religion and NOT condoned by God or the Bible. Same for Easter. If you celebrate these holidays, then you are defying God's commandment to not associate him with them. Good job.

Absolutely true. So called christians have been 'adding and subtracting' doctrines, rituals, holy days etc etc on their own for centuries....all 'in vain' I might add.

3) Unless you are one of the 144,000 chosen by God, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO HEAVEN. Those with salvation will inherit the New Earth after the great tribulation and armageddon. No wings, halos, or pearly gates. Sorry.
[/quote

This is a simple misreading of Scripture. In fact, although a special group of 144,000 is mentioned the number 'saved' is designated as 'the sands of the sea' which would be a number beyond comprehension. The 144,000 are part of that greater number and a special group of which not alot is understood.

[quote]
4) There is no "Hell" with eternal suffering. There is only eternal destruction. Which is yet another way how God is merciful if you think about it.

Very true! And the most commonly held BS doctrine...along with man having an 'eternal living soul'. A simple study of the Bible will show this one. One example...Sodom and Gommorah suffered the 'vengance of eternal fire' yet there is no buring there. The effects of that destruction were eternal however. The doctrine of eternal burning hell is not Biblical, never has been. Many Christians know this.

5) The Passover (bread and wine) IS NOT FOR EVERYONE. It's for the select 144,000 that will inherit the kingdom and reign with Jesus. That's why the original ceremony was held in private amongst Jesus and his diciples and not amongst the masses. Look it up.

Another slight misreading. The example of Christ at the last supper is given for everyone....everyone who is following Christ that is. Your statement has a truth to it however, this service/ritual is not to be entered in by the masses ritually without meaning. The 144,000 and the subsequent activities in heaven/new earth are beyond this.

6) God's name is Jehovah, not "God". It appears in the Bible over 100 times. Hence why you have "Jehovah's Witnesses". It makes sense.

God has MANY names and is refered to many ways in the Bible.

I would also say that there are Christians who already know all this stuff too...and more....even though a majority are off the track in left field. ;)

Ran

07-09-2008, 10:43 AM

^ Repped

Romeyo07

07-09-2008, 06:57 PM

wow it's been a while since I been here....looks like much hasn't changed. Good to see you're still here, Metalman.

tony

07-09-2008, 07:02 PM

Wife swap on Channel 2 right now.. it fits this discussion very well

0p7!mu5

07-09-2008, 10:53 PM

uh I put it like this . I believe in what I believe. Yeah I believe in a higher power and I look to the bible and religion in general as a guide. It gives us a definition of good and evil. for in my opinon you cant define or have one without the other (Daoists concept of yin and yang). Many relious text have been rewritten or re interprted so many time we many never really know exactly what has or hasnt been included. there is still some debate that the catholic church is still hiding stuff and lets not even get into the whole Davinnchi code dilema.

I just laugh at how many religious people push their religion on others. If a person doesnt believe out of their own volition would that not be blasphemy itself? Like how I believe the crusades and even terrorism used violence to win people over through fear. Its a direction confrontation to a universal law stating that the taking of another life is wrong. Period.

Like many things in history less than reliable explanations of thing in the past are more of a reason to explain the unexplainable. Like back then it was proven people werent that tall so the idea of a 6'7 guy picking on a 5'5 guy coulda easily turned into David and goliath. Same with the plagues of Egypt science did prove it was possible in one form or another that a series of ecological events could lead to conditions like that making someone back then believe it was the wrath of god.

Me personally? I just belive in doing good by others and that karma pays you back so i just try to do the best I can to be a "good" person by definition. In doing so I am following more of god's laws than most diehard christians i know who wouldnt talk to a bum or a person addicted to drugs because they are unholy in their eyes (and I have met quite a few people like that down here especially). even with other holy books the Tora and quran if im not mistaken were the old testament with a slight diff in translation (correct me if I am wrong).

But like i said I believe in a higher power based on the principle that at some point int he universe science no matter what still has to explain where in the hell matter came from in the first place. And no matter what some things just arent explainable to me. So where as I believe in evolution and all that I just may not believe that adam and ever were exactly homo saipien moreso than a way to explain back then where the hell we came from when no other definition seemed to fit.

ShooterMcGavin

07-10-2008, 07:51 AM

wow it's been a while since I been here....looks like much hasn't changed. Good to see you're still here, Metalman.
holy hell, did you move back from fla?

ShooterMcGavin

07-10-2008, 07:52 AM

ep9716

07-10-2008, 10:29 AM

I Dont Believe In None Of That...You Live For A While..Then You Die..Thats It LOL

adios

07-10-2008, 11:03 AM

I Dont Believe In None Of That...You Live For A While..Then You Die..Thats It LOL
I wish life was that simple. Sadly, it's not.

Life is a combination of experiences, trials, misfortunes and so on... It's far more complex then you're making it out to be. Once you 'die' your body goes through a metamorphosis stage and changes from the inside out.

The 'soul' vanishes. To what and where? We don't know.

Religion is a subject I would much rather ignore, but I might jump in on it alittle bit later.

Lucky DAWG

07-10-2008, 05:27 PM

Catholicism has been so corrupted by money and pretenses it's not even funny. It has long since been anything other than Christian.

The initial core values being the 10 Commandments, then yes they are shared. But that's about where it ends. Extravagant ceremony, material focus, baptising babies, saints? The list of differences is endless. You're guaranteed to find fewer differences between Baptism, Presbyterian, and other protestant religions then you would between them and Catholicism. Hell, Catholics themselves tend to think themselves as seperate from traditional Christianity.

No the initial core values being the Bible.

Ran you have honestly no ****ing idea what you are talking about. Its actually offensive to think that you do and to generalize it like so.

So corrupted? Yes back in the medieval and dark ages the church asked for money to save you from time in purgatory. And yes there has been bad men in the church of recent years with the molestation scandals.

To say no other religion has had scandels would be completely blasphemous. And ofcourse you find less differences between the denominations what does that change about Catholicism being a Christian religion?

And where do you get off telling ME what WE think? Never once have i met a catholic that thought they were not christinas. My entire mom's side is from Ireland and everyone is Catholic there, so between them and being involved in the church here i know a lot of them. My dad's side is all baptist, i have been to both church's and the ideas and things talked about are nearly identical, the way church is handled though and the different ceremonies are different. Its the same core message that is handled a different way.

You are speaking out of pure ignorance and it is outright demeaning to my core beliefs. I really do not get where someone gets off telling me the wrongs of my religion... I have zero problems with Bhuddists, Muslims, or any other religion as long as they are faithful and attempt to good in their lives.

Think what you want on your own, but don't tell me what i believe is wrong.

Lucky DAWG

07-10-2008, 05:34 PM

For me though I call him Father. I use God but Father is what Im most comfortable at. What do you think God will get mad at you and burn you to the ground if you dont call him the proper name? LOLOLOLOLOL

I agree, i think all of the names you listed for god throughout history are all things for us to better understand the pretenses of religion and how societies back then thought and how religion was created and practiced.

Because at the end of the day atleast to me, they are all names being spoken in a language created by Humans.

What really matters is what you call him to yourself when speaking with him and what it truely means to you, not the grammatical value of it in a human based language.

I personally use Father or God

metalman

07-10-2008, 07:32 PM

Catholicism has been so corrupted by money and pretenses it's not even funny. It has long since been anything other than Christian.

Not only that, its highly spiritually corrupt in it's blasphemous rituals...nearly all of which are condemned in the Bible, and by the Christ it claims to follow. One of the most outrageous aspect of vatican notions is that a Creator God is bound to follow the descisions of sinful popes and men. Absurd.

Catholics themselves tend to think themselves as seperate from traditional Christianity.

The church masquarades as christian by assuming christian names for its man-made rituals. The core doctrines/rituals of the church are not Biblical...nor are they according to any Biblical commandment, but contrary to them. The church re wrote the 10 Biblical commandments for its own 'bible' to reflect its own teachings.

Funny thing is, some so called 'protestant' churches follow right along with that nonsense. I have intently studied catholic books and texts that most most practicing catholics have not one ounce of knowlege of. I neither hate nor despise catholic people. I pity their ignorance. My own loved ones are catholic...and although highly schooled and intelligent in many ways, are highly ignorant and uninformed of Biblical teachings OR even the nonsense the church puts forth. This is typical. They follow blindly along...simply because thats 'tradition' and if any question comes up they rely on the priest/preacher/minister/guru/pope etc to answer it.

That summarizes most so called christian church groups...following tradition blindly, without any question...or open minded search and study. The Christ the churches claims to follow said this....
"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"....."For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...."....."Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition..."

Lucky DAWG

07-11-2008, 01:46 AM

Not only that, its highly spiritually corrupt in it's blasphemous rituals...nearly all of which are condemned in the Bible, and by the Christ it claims to follow. One of the most outrageous aspect of vatican notions is that a Creator God is bound to follow the descisions of sinful popes and men. Absurd.

The church masquarades as christian by assuming christian names for its man-made rituals. The core doctrines/rituals of the church are not Biblical...nor are they according to any Biblical commandment, but contrary to them. The church re wrote the 10 Biblical commandments for its own 'bible' to reflect its own teachings.

Funny thing is, some so called 'protestant' churches follow right along with that nonsense. I have intently studied catholic books and texts that most most practicing catholics have not one ounce of knowlege of. I neither hate nor despise catholic people. I pity their ignorance. My own loved ones are catholic...and although highly schooled and intelligent in many ways, are highly ignorant and uninformed of Biblical teachings OR even the nonsense the church puts forth. This is typical. They follow blindly along...simply because thats 'tradition' and if any question comes up they rely on the priest/preacher/minister/guru/pope etc to answer it.

That summarizes most so called christian church groups...following tradition blindly, without any question...or open minded search and study. The Christ the churches claims to follow said this....
"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men"....."For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...."....."Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition..."

you oversimply a lot.

and maybe tradition means something to us. And i thought following blindly along was the point of religion in general. Its called faith, and its something i have in my religion.

Do your own thing and stop dumping on other religions, i won't try and convert you, so you don't do the same to me.

I really don't understand why or how this turned into ****ting on other religions you deem as inferior to your own.

MaconPerformance

07-11-2008, 02:10 AM

metalman

07-11-2008, 11:04 AM

you oversimply a lot.

and maybe tradition means something to us. And i thought following blindly along was the point of religion in general. Its called faith, and its something i have in my religion.

Do your own thing and stop dumping on other religions, i won't try and convert you, so you don't do the same to me.

I really don't understand why or how this turned into ****ting on other religions you deem as inferior to your own.

Dont confuse facts with 'oversimplification'.

Youre way off track. I am not 'dumping' on you, nor do I feel others 'inferior'...I am simply pointing out FACTS about catholic tradition (that also apply to many other 'traditions')

I am not questioning the sincerity of catholics.

The context here is so called christian church doctrines often contradict the Bible they claim to follow. That is TRUE. Muslims have the same issue with extremist 'churches' that claim to follow the Koran but who violate its principles with their own man made substitutes.

I understand full well how important tradition is to the vatican. Tradition is revered much more then TRUTH, the teachings of the Bible, the words of Christ, or anything else. That is acknowleged by 'saints' within the church. The traditions of men, the words of sinful men are revered more then most anything. As an American I defend your right to ANY religion or 'faith' you wish to hold. Any! You can worship a billygoats nutsack if you want. Just dont claim that 'faith' and 'tradition' as Biblical when its not. :)

The cornerstones of catholic tradition are the mass, and confession. Both are man made rituals. Both are blasphemy by Biblical definition and condemned by the Bible...as practiced by the church. One is a pagan ritual with names changed to sound 'christian'. The other is a dark ages concept developed to control and keep within subjection the parishoner.

Following blindly along is not Biblical faith by definition or by any means....its human uninformed/ignorance in action. The Bible commands that one "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth...NOT follow blindly the words and made up teachings of men.

Blitanicle99

07-11-2008, 11:05 AM

I love to read over these post though... It actually increases my faith because no one can actually prove or dis-prove God....

x2

Ran

07-11-2008, 11:22 AM

The context here is so called christian church doctrines often contradict the Bible they claim to follow. That is TRUE. Muslims have the same issue with extremist 'churches' that claim to follow the Koran but who violate its principles with their own man made substitutes.Let's not forget about The Apocrypha.

yerrow

07-11-2008, 11:26 AM

word

Blitanicle99

07-11-2008, 11:38 AM

Or hell Ill go into my own person BS.

I am a very skepitcal person. I had a lot of friends who were "church nerds" or whatever, but they were still good friends of mine. I grew up with the guys, was in boyscouts with some of them and so on. There was one particular friend, his name is Matt. His last name will not be shared. Matt really took well to church, he was always helping out around the events, he did the school events and damn a lot of people looked up to him. I consider him like an older brother, great guy and Ill never forget him.

Well story in a nutshell, hanging out with some buddies one night working on a particular GTO Matt was there. I pulled Matt aside for a minute, and said when he had a chance sometime this week I had something I needed his help on. ( I was very general about it, I sorta made it out to be school related) Well a week went by, I got a chance to meet up with him at his house. He happened to be with another church like buddy which sorta confused me, but whatever. We all were BSing and all that but Matt finally asked what I needed help with. Flat out, right there, I asked Matt why he believed in God.

And what truely impressed me (I guess God wanted to impress me this day) is that Matt didn't have to clear his throat, or even pause for a second. Matt knew I was going to ask that exact question, and for about a week he had been looking up verses and particular stuff he wanted to show me. Matt told me about faith, lots of christain stuff I didn't know and so on. I wasnt raised by a church family, I wouldn't know this. I actually had to ask who the virgin mary was.... (yes I know, Im a retard lol)

Well time went on, I went to church with Matt quite a few times, I tried to embrace religion or whatever, but it honestly wasnt doing much for me. I questioned it a lot, I thought of the skeptical parts in which I could disprove, and so on.

So a couple years go on, I never really accepted god into my life and I went about my business. But something happened. Its about 5:10 am on a thursday morning, I wake up to my buddy slamming on my window on my apartment in statesboro ga. I check my phone for the time and I have 28 missed calls and 7 texts. "Oh ****" I thought to myself, this better be good.

Well, as most of you heard in the news and I made a thread about it. Lauren Ashley Burk of Auburn had been murdered. It was all over the news, this girl was a freshman at Auburn was murdered. I have literally never known a sweeter girl in my entire life. She was gorgeous, smart, and just wow... such a sweetheart. Anyways, I find out what happened, end up going to waffle house with the group in statesboro that used to hang out with her... (About 5 of us really knew her well down there), we all make a few phone calls to old friends, it was really hard.

Well this particular weekend, every single person of the old friends from whatever college came back to the area (Marietta) for sort of a reuinion thing. Again it was hard, but it was good to see some old friends at a time like this. Most of us were pretty heart broken over this, as you might understand. The funeral was on saturday, we were all there. It was a pretty big funeral, I can't believe how many people came for her. Hey boyfriend Sean, had it rough boy... Damn... that guy was torn the hell up. The couple were very very close.

So the funeral goes on and just something about it continues in my heard and deep inside of me just the same as when I woke up 2 days before at 5:10am and I couldn't figure it out. It was bringing me down or bringing me up, I couldnt tell.

Long story short, I asked basically asked God in the funeral to guide me in my life and so on. And I am not embaressed at all to share that with compeltely random people. But however, point being as skeptical as I was it took something that big just for me to ask for God for help. However I was still looking for that sign, that thing that would happen to show me that I got my message to a higher power. So basically thats my leap of faith there.

A few weeks went by, and I hadn't thought about it, nor been waiting for that sign/message really. I realized it would come when it comes. So one night, I was with some friends, we smoked a joint. (Get over it) And at my state of mind I figured out that I never need a sign, I never had one originally because from then on I was openly telling people my story and spreading my faith. And it took something like that girl getting murdered to get me to make that leap of faith. And now I have complete faith in my religion, I know where I am going. I don't nessacery go to church every sunday, nor follow every single rule. But I don't think its about that. I think its about being a damn good person, helping those when they need, and just trying to do something with your life and appreciate it for what it is.

And the reason I brought up Matt in the first place is, on the way back to southern one night, I called Matt and told him what happened. He was estatic, we probably talked for like an hour and a half about everything that happened previously, that day we talked and I asked him why he believed in god and so much other stuff. But damn, all I can say is the lord works in misterious ways...

And as I think that, I couldn't be happier. I realized I needed to get out of southern, get back to kennesaw and get a job while in school to get me busy. I realized getting ano
her bike was a bad idea and Id probably end up hurt on one. And plenty of stuff other I realize.

But damn Ill tell you this, without that leap of faith my life would be completely different at the time. I wouldn't have a job that pays ridiculous for my age, most people would kill for a job like mine. (I don't discuss numbers) Ive re-found my bad habit of car projects (Hell it could be alot worse lol) and quite a few other things.

But any of you who question your situation, or religion and think to yourself when am I going to see something that sparks me or kicks my thinking to even consider faith, stop waiting. I found my answer/notion/sign whatever later on and I understand now.

I know someo of you will probably cut my post up, quote stuff out and call me out on things, but thats fine. Go for it. Its meaningless, your not going to talk me out of something.

99hatch

07-11-2008, 11:40 AM

and maybe tradition means something to us. And i thought following blindly along was the point of religion in general. Its called faith, and its something i have in my religion.

Do your own thing and stop dumping on other religions, i won't try and convert you, so you don't do the same to me.

I really don't understand why or how this turned into ****ting on other religions you deem as inferior to your own.

Tradition is nice, but not if it means bending principles found in the bible just to follow tradition.

Also the idea of Christianity is to try to convert others to see there is a God, and Jesus. Not to just tell people to piss off and quit bashing your religion. You know this website, they will bash you for anything, and those who dont understand Christianity will bash it. So accept it and try to help others see your way.

Catholisim is a denomination of Christianity, not a religion by itself. In Fact all the different denominations are man made anyway. Thats why i feel some of the denominations have rules and traditions that i feel really dont add to bringing others closer to God or helping to worship God. Not to dis any denomination, but tradition is nice, but when we put it above worshiping God, thats basically like a false idol. I think this is where some people have problems with the catholic church. With all the bad press about priest's taking matters into their own hands, and having to ask the virgin mary for forgiveness as apposed to Jesus.

Lucky DAWG

07-11-2008, 07:55 PM

Dont confuse facts with 'oversimplification'.

Youre way off track. I am not 'dumping' on you, nor do I feel others 'inferior'...I am simply pointing out FACTS about catholic tradition (that also apply to many other 'traditions')

I am not questioning the sincerity of catholics.

The context here is so called christian church doctrines often contradict the Bible they claim to follow. That is TRUE. Muslims have the same issue with extremist 'churches' that claim to follow the Koran but who violate its principles with their own man made substitutes.

I understand full well how important tradition is to the vatican. Tradition is revered much more then TRUTH, the teachings of the Bible, the words of Christ, or anything else. That is acknowleged by 'saints' within the church. The traditions of men, the words of sinful men are revered more then most anything. As an American I defend your right to ANY religion or 'faith' you wish to hold. Any! You can worship a billygoats nutsack if you want. Just dont claim that 'faith' and 'tradition' as Biblical when its not. :)

The cornerstones of catholic tradition are the mass, and confession. Both are man made rituals. Both are blasphemy by Biblical definition and condemned by the Bible...as practiced by the church. One is a pagan ritual with names changed to sound 'christian'. The other is a dark ages concept developed to control and keep within subjection the parishoner.

Following blindly along is not Biblical faith by definition or by any means....its human uninformed/ignorance in action. The Bible commands that one "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth...NOT follow blindly the words and made up teachings of men.

Everything about your church no matter what your christian denomination is going to have man's hands on it and will have been changed and warped over the years as to how they see fit.

How can you look at Methodists or Baptists as having a more pure or clear cut vision of how Christianity is when they take their interpretation from a Bible that THEY SAY has been warped by the church THEY BROKE FROM.

Do you understand what i'm saying? if you are seperating yourselves from a church that you think is hiding things, then you are interpretting what is in the version of the Bible that if you want to believe in the theory that it was rewritten back in the 1000's-1200's and so on to fit their beliefs.

No one has the original Bible, and even the original Bible was written by men so its going to have our perogative and bias in it, people aren't perfect. If God or Jesus had written in it then it would have been a different story, but we have to take it for what it is.

I dunno, i'm very into tradition and I like it for that, and i feel that no religion has it completely correct and i feel as if it is ignornat to think that you do when there are so many options out there and you have so little knowledge of the lineage of them.

I don't look down on other religions, I feel as if it means that much to you and you are sincere person then things will work out in the end.

>>>I have a hard time believing that God would damn the 67+% (i believe thats the number) of the world that is not Christian and have and never will be exposed to it their entire life. Some people are born into areas where there religion is all they know and i think thats okay.

Lucky DAWG

07-11-2008, 08:01 PM

Tradition is nice, but not if it means bending principles found in the bible just to follow tradition.

Also the idea of Christianity is to try to convert others to see there is a God, and Jesus. Not to just tell people to piss off and quit bashing your religion. You know this website, they will bash you for anything, and those who dont understand Christianity will bash it. So accept it and try to help others see your way.

Catholisim is a denomination of Christianity, not a religion by itself. In Fact all the different denominations are man made anyway. Thats why i feel some of the denominations have rules and traditions that i feel really dont add to bringing others closer to God or helping to worship God. Not to dis any denomination, but tradition is nice, but when we put it above worshiping God, thats basically like a false idol. I think this is where some people have problems with the catholic church. With all the bad press about priest's taking matters into their own hands, and having to ask the virgin mary for forgiveness as apposed to Jesus.

You don't know the modern Catholic Church then. If you came to my church for a week and heard the sermon's you would think differently. The tradition is not held higher then the message, it is simply a guideline to how the mass is held, the message is different every week.

I think if you asked any Catholic in my church that they would tell you the exact same thing.

I don't simply feel that the acceptance of the Communion is something that will save you, and like i said i don't feel like others around would think so either. That is why the Church has our own Habitat of Humanity branch of does a lot of mission trips

adios

07-12-2008, 12:41 AM

After reading all of this: I wish I could prove to non-believers that God is real. But, If I could do this, it would end what God wants. God wants us to believe in Him "in faith". So, if I could prove to all that God is real it would change "faith" to "fact" making us just like angels(Created by God for worship). That's what makes us and our worship special... We "choose" to worship Him.
How do you know this for sure?

It's kinda clear that all of the current churches and priests are out for one thing. And that's making everyone they can into following the way's of Christ. To keep returning to their Church to give out donations.

You yourself, can't prove that God is real.

All you can prove to us, is that there are ancient scripts out there that tell of a man with mystical powers that once lived. That's it. No true facts of his existence.

Ran you are going to be hard pressed to find facts for God because he wants you to believe in Faith. Question for you - Are you trying to spend time seeking Him? Prayer is common way of communication. If you seek Him you will find Him. I'm not saying you have to go to church, church is "suppose" to make it easier to focus...
No one wants to spend anytime seeking a being they know they'll never be able to see. All people really want are answers. Church doesn't give us, answers. They give us a better understanding at how life revolves around certain morals and how we should follow the path to happiness.

In reality. People don't usually walk out of church with new knowledge on anything.

I love to read over these post though... It actually increases my faith because no one can actually prove or dis-prove God....
I like reading stuff like this cause it gives me a better understanding on other people's point of views. And how people with faith react to non-believers.

You're right though. No one can 'disprove' God, but no one here can prove he exists. So it's an equal discussion. With equal points.

jew_boy

07-12-2008, 12:44 AM

im Jewish so im automatically goin to heaven, hahaha your all goin to hell

jk some of you might go to heaven

_Christian_

07-12-2008, 12:58 AM

You're right though. No one can 'disprove' God, but no one here can prove his existence. So it's an equal arguement. With equal points.
Just like disproving flying spaghetti monster.

Lucky DAWG

07-12-2008, 03:18 AM

How do you know this for sure?

It's kinda clear that all of the current churches and priests are out for one thing. And that's making everyone they can into following the way's of Christ. To keep returning to their Church to give out donations.

You yourself, can't prove that God is real.

All you can prove to us, is that there are ancient scripts out there that tell of a man with mystical powers that once lived. That's it. No true facts of his existence.

No one wants to spend anytime seeking a being they know they'll never be able to see. All people really want are answers. Church doesn't give us, answers. They give us a better understanding at how life revolves around certain morals and how we should follow the path to happiness.

In reality. People don't usually walk out of church with new knowledge on anything.

I like reading stuff like this cause it gives me a better understanding on other people's point of views. And how people with faith react to non-believers.

You're right though. No one can 'disprove' God, but no one here can prove he exists. So it's an equal discussion. With equal points.

Thats funny because the very science you argue for proves that he existed. Whether or not you want to believe he was a higher being, Jesus was historically proven a real person.

Any Theologist or Anthropologist / Archaeoligist will tell you that despite their religious beliefs.

adios

07-12-2008, 04:10 AM

Thats funny because the very science you argue for proves that he existed. Whether or not you want to believe he was a higher being, Jesus was historically proven a real person.

Any Theologist or Anthropologist / Archaeoligist will tell you that despite their religious beliefs.

I bet you watched the show that talked about his remains on Discovery Channel and automatically believed it, because, well, Discovery Channel said it so it must be true.

Right? Wrong!

Even if they could find any remains, of Jesus Christ. How would they know he had special powers? Powers of healing and the power to bring people back from the dead?

They can't! And wouldn't be able to.

They could check it's DNA, but what would that tell you? They can't possible say that its dna is identical to God's himself.

Plus, who's talking about Jesus? I was referring to God in my post.
EDIT: After going back and reading what I posted, I can understand and see how you would think I was talking about Jesus. My mistake.

Let me leave you with something interesting to read. Read it all, and let me know what you think. vvv

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/26/world/main2514360.shtml

The12lber

07-12-2008, 08:04 AM

How does god feel about me pooping on my partner's chest during intercourse?

The12lber

07-12-2008, 08:07 AM

You're right though. No one can 'disprove' God, but no one here can prove he exists. So it's an equal discussion. With equal points.
That's actually not really how logic or science work. Having no evidence for the existence of something doesn't put its potential existence at an equal footing with its thus far observed non-existence.

The12lber

07-12-2008, 08:30 AM

it takes a human to design anything mechanical to function.. scrap metal doesn't just evolve into cadillac....

I hate to state the super obvious here, but considering that you're apparently overlooking it in your statement there's no way around it. That's because organisms are biological and Cadillacs are not. Its possible for simple biological chemicals to form by themselves.

just like i feel the earth/living creatures were designed to work the way we work... of course there will be some "improvements" `along the way... just like cars having some pretty awesome improvements themselves...
If someone designed us, they obviously weren't a god. Genetic mutations resulting in a decreased level of fitness or disease are quite common even in humans. Cancer, cholesterol disorders etc.

:2cents:

rHodmod

07-12-2008, 12:39 PM

i find stuff like this rather interesting...what ppl believe n what not. But thats just it, ppl believe for different reasons, Many of which are wrong. When asked why you believe in what you do, can you honestly defend your faith?

If you know the route to safety, how can you tell others who have never been that way, and expect them to trust you with their lives? can you just say, "i feel this is the right thing", and expect to others to follow. And for those who look down on ppl sharing their faith in the preaching work...why? why look down on them "when faith without works are dead". did not jesus go on preaching in the synagogs and throught all judea and galalee?

What you believe means your life. how u live day to day, and if you are going to live forever. ppl have become so apathetic and religiously passive, allowing MAN to dictate what they believe in. 2 Timothy 3:16 says it all make sure you judge your beliefs as admonished there.

Lucky DAWG

07-12-2008, 12:45 PM

I bet you watched the show that talked about his remains on Discovery Channel and automatically believed it, because, well, Discovery Channel said it so it must be true.

Right? Wrong!

Even if they could find any remains, of Jesus Christ. How would they know he had special powers? Powers of healing and the power to bring people back from the dead?

They can't! And wouldn't be able to.

They could check it's DNA, but what would that tell you? They can't possible say that its dna is identical to God's himself.

Plus, who's talking about Jesus? I was referring to God in my post.
EDIT: After going back and reading what I posted, I can understand and see how you would think I was talking about Jesus. My mistake.

Let me leave you with something interesting to read. Read it all, and let me know what you think. vvv

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/02/26/world/main2514360.shtml

Nope, never watched it.

But the overwhelming majority of people will tell you he is a real person, and just like i posted, not one necessarily with any kind of powers, just a guy named Jesus of Nazareth.

and ofcourse you can't prove God's existence, Faith is the entire basis of it. Faith is what keeps so many coming back for more, but at the same time it pushes away so many from the church because they can't see or hear it. It all depends on the type of person you are and if you are ready to accept something like that.

I personally don't know for sure that my religion is true, but i do not understand why someone would despite its factual basis WANT to believe something like there is no God and there is no point to life. If thats your idealism then why not just roll over and give up?

metalman

07-12-2008, 01:21 PM

Everything about your church no matter what your christian denomination is going to have man's hands on it and will have been changed and warped over the years as to how they see fit.

First, I dont have a church. I dont belong to one.
Second, there is no earthly denomiation (or affiliation) that will "save" you from ultimate destruction. Period.
But, real Christians already know this. The Bible is very clear on that.

How can you look at Methodists or Baptists as having a more pure or clear cut vision of how Christianity is when they take their interpretation from a Bible that THEY SAY has been warped by the church THEY BROKE FROM.

I dont look at Methodists or Baptists as having 'pure' vision. They too have inflicted themselves with non Biblical teachings and nonsense that they pass off as "biblical", some of it borrowed straight from roman catholic nonsense and dogma....some of it made up by others.
Only a student of Scripture will learn the difference.

Do you understand what i'm saying? if you are seperating yourselves from a church that you think is hiding things, then you are interpretting what is in the version of the Bible that if you want to believe in the theory that it was rewritten back in the 1000's-1200's and so on to fit their beliefs.

The Bible needs no 'interpretation' placed upon it. Its a unique writing.
Its a self interpreting book. For every mystery of the Bible another part of that Book explains it. If one studys the Bible, listens to Gods voice and His Spirit they know this. But just blindly following ANY tradition will not lead to this understanding.

The 'smoke screen' and 'foggy' approach to 'christianity' and the Bible is common. Its also typically catholic. The church doesnt wish its members to UNDERSTAND Scripture...it loves to refer to Biblical teachings as 'mysteries'.....which they are NOT. Anyone who can free themselves from that nonsene CAN understand the Bible...IF they WANT to. During one era the catholic church burned Bibles and killed people found duplicating them.
Why??? To keep people IGNORANT of the REAL teachings contained therein...that would FREE them from the BS dogmas of the church.

Its stupidly ironic that any people that claim to believe in a Creator God who has omnipitent power really think that same God cannot preserve His own Word of Truth and that somewhow its beyond His control and that man has screwed it up.
If one doesnt really believe in God or His abilities to preserve the integrity of truth in written form then why bother with any of it to begin with.

Jesus said 'My sheep hear my voice...they follow Me."

No one has the original Bible, and even the original Bible was written by men so its going to have our perogative and bias in it, people aren't perfect. If God or Jesus had written in it then it would have been a different story, but we have to take it for what it is.

Therein lies the heart of the issue.
If you dont believe God/Jesus 'wrote' the Bible and that its His inspired Word then your wasting your time. And, youre NOT Christian...for that is the very essence of what it means to be Christian. Following the Bible was the example set forth by Jesus Christ....which to Christians is the pattern for all.
"...faith cometh by hearing...and hearing by the Word of God"

That was kind of my point to begin with....
Catholicism is NOT Christianity.....its a man made religion that has little to do with the teachings of God or His Word.....except it borrows names, and various items and distorts it to fit its own traditions.

I dunno, i'm very into tradition and I like it for that, and i feel that no religion has it completely correct and i feel as if it is ignornat to think that you do when there are so many options out there and you have so little knowledge of the lineage of them.

I would dare say I likely know more about the 'linage' of chruches and doctrines then most here....likely you included. But that matters very little....because your actions are governed by what YOU know, not what I know.
And as you have indicated...you are "into tradition".
That makes you a good catholic....it doesnt make you a Christian.

The 'perfect' catholic is the person who will devoid themselves of any critical examination cathoic dogmas, or study of the Bible....and keep all such study & examination within the 'protection' of the church.
FYI this is the exact same concept used my Marshall Applewhite, Jim Jones, and all other cult leaders. You cant have members thinking for themselves, or with a personal connection to 'god'...they need to get all that through the church and/or its leaders.

The catholic church teaches that salvation/forgivness comes through/from the church. The Bible does NOT teach any such notion....NOR did Jesus Christ. Period!

I don't look down on other religions, I feel as if it means that much to you and you are sincere person then things will work out in the end.

>>>I have a hard time believing that God would damn the 67+% (i believe thats the number) of the world that is not Christian and have and never will be exposed to it their entire life. Some people are born into areas where there religion is all they know and i think thats okay.

I dont "look down" on anyone. I pity ignorant churches who claim to be Christian when they in fact are not. According to their OWN Bible and religion eternal destruction awaits them. I actually love catholics. Some of the finest Christians I know are ex-catholics. If I didnt care about them I would keep secret that which I know.

According to the Bible, (which evidently you dont really believe in) God doesnt damn anyone. They damn themselves...and God only gives men what they desire and prove by their own actions that they desire...in the end.
The catholic view and teaching of God is HIGHLY distorted...when compared to the Bible teaching. One example of this was refered to in Ran's original post...the nonsense of 'eternal burning hell' and torture...which is not in keeping with the character of God or the teachings of the Bible. Not to mention the idolotry of worshipping Mary and other dead people...and elevating her to 'co-redemptress' for mankind. As a matter of fact according to your Bible Mary is DEAD..as in NO LONGER LIVING and WITHOUT THOUGHTS or KNOWLEGE. She cant do a thing to save anyone!! She is not and never was ANYONEs saviour. She has no part of anything that happens on the face of the earth or under the sun! She was the earthly human mother of the human Jesus...NOTHING more. She is NOT the mother of "god" the father....that nonsense is directly stolen from Babylonian pagan worship of Semarimis/Ishtar etc...'mother of the (sun)god' But who cares about truth, God, the Bible, or any of that when you have these neato made up pagan catholic traditions to follow!

Acording to that same Bible all men are judged by how much they live up to what they know of God, not their affiliation with churches and denominations.

By that same Book, one can use the name of Christ, the apostles, quote the Bible when its convenient or fits one's tradition...and all of that and it doesnt make one Christian. The very meaning of Christianity is hearing the voice of God, understanding His Word, and following His example....being Christ-like. Anything willfully less is something else....which is fine by me, just dont call it Christianity when its not. Dont give me a VW and tell me its a Lamborgini.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" - Jesus

Lucky DAWG

07-12-2008, 01:32 PM

First, I dont have a church. I dont belong to one.
Second, there is no earthly denomiation (or affiliation) that will "save" you from ultimate destruction. Period.
But, real Christians already know this. The Bible is very clear on that.

I dont look at Methodists or Baptists as having 'pure' vision. They too have inflicted themselves with non Biblical teachings and nonsense that they pass off as "biblical", some of it borrowed straight from roman catholic nonsense and dogma....some of it made up by others.
Only a student of Scripture will learn the difference.

The Bible needs no 'interpretation' placed upon it. Its a unique writing.
Its a self interpreting book. For every mystery of the Bible another part of that Book explains it. If one studys the Bible, listens to Gods voice and His Spirit they know this. But just blindly following ANY tradition will not lead to this understanding.

The 'smoke screen' and 'foggy' approach to 'christianity' and the Bible is common. Its also typically catholic. The church doesnt wish its members to UNDERSTAND Scripture...it loves to refer to Biblical teachings as 'mysteries'.....which they are NOT. Anyone who can free themselves from that nonsene CAN understand the Bible...IF they WANT to. During one era the catholic church burned Bibles and killed people found duplicating them.
Why??? To keep people IGNORANT of the REAL teachings contained therein...that would FREE them from the BS dogmas of the church.

Its stupidly ironic that any people that claim to believe in a Creator God who has omnipitent power really think that same God cannot preserve His own Word of Truth and that somewhow its beyond His control and that man has screwed it up.
If one doesnt really believe in God or His abilities to preserve the integrity of truth in written form then why bother with any of it to begin with.

Jesus said 'My sheep hear my voice...they follow Me."

Therein lies the heart of the issue.
If you dont believe God/Jesus 'wrote' the Bible and that its His inspired Word then your wasting your time. And, youre NOT Christian...for that is the very essence of what it means to be Christian. Following the Bible was the example set forth by Jesus Christ....which to Christians is the pattern for all.
"...faith cometh by hearing...and hearing by the Word of God"

That was kind of my point to begin with....
Catholicism is NOT Christianity.....its a man made religion that has little to do with the teachings of God or His Word.....except it borrows names, and various items and distorts it to fit its own traditions.

I would dare say I likely know more about the 'linage' of chruches and doctrines then most here....likely you included. But that matters very little....because your actions are governed by what YOU know, not what I know.
And as you have indicated...you are "into tradition".
That makes you a good catholic....it doesnt make you a Christian.

The 'perfect' catholic is the person who will devoid themselves of any critical examination cathoic dogmas, or study of the Bible....and keep all such study & examination within the 'protection' of the church.
FYI this is the exact same concept used my Marshall Applewhite, Jim Jones, and all other cult leaders. You cant have members thinking for themselves, or with a personal connection to 'god'...they need to get all that through the church and/or its leaders.

The catholic church teaches that salvation/forgivness comes through/from the church. The Bible does NOT teach any such notion....NOR did Jesus Christ. Period!

I dont "look down" on anyone. I pity ignorant churches who claim to be Christian when they in fact are not. According to their OWN Bible and religion eternal destruction awaits them. I actually love catholics. Some of the finest Christians I know are ex-catholics. If I didnt care about them I would keep secret that which I know.

According to the Bible, (which evidently you dont really believe in) God doesnt damn anyone. They damn themselves...and God only gives men what they desire and prove by their own actions that they desire...in the end.
The catholic view and teaching of God is HIGHLY distorted...when compared to the Bible teaching. One example of this was refered to in Ran's original post...the nonsense of 'eternal burning hell' and torture...which is not in keeping with the character of God or the teachings of the Bible. Not to mention the idolotry of worshipping Mary and other dead people...and elevating her to 'co-redemptress' for mankind. As a matter of fact according to your Bible Mary is DEAD..as in NO LONGER LIVING and WITHOUT THOUGHTS or KNOWLEGE. She cant do a thing to save anyone!! She is not and never was ANYONEs saviour. She has no part of anything that happens on the face of the earth or under the sun! She was the earthly human mother of the human Jesus...NOTHING more. She is NOT the mother of "god" the father....that nonsense is directly stolen from Babylonian pagan worship of Semarimis/Ishtar etc...'mother of the (sun)god' But who cares about truth, God, the Bible, or any of that when you have these neato made up pagan catholic traditions to follow!

Acording to that same Bible all men are judged by how much they live up to what they know of God, not their affiliation with churches and denominations.

By that same Book, one can use the name of Christ, the apostles, quote the Bible when its convenient or fits one's tradition...and all of that and it doesnt make one Christian. The very meaning of Christianity is hearing the voice of God, understanding His Word, and following His example....being Christ-like. Anything willfully less is something else....which is fine by me, just dont call it Christianity when its not. Dont give me a VW and tell me its a Lamborgini.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" - Jesus

I like how you overanaylze everything to the fullest extent to jump around so much that you might hit the nail on the head. I admit though you know more historical facts then i do, i will not argue that. But you are missing the overall concept that you have to respect that others won't agree with you when it comes to religion, you don't have the answer. NO ONE DOES

ALL Churches are man made, God did not come down and construct the churches and their traditions and beliefs. He did not put the men who preach in them in charge, they put themselves there and made that decision.

My point being is that you find something you like, that feels right, and you go with it. Whatever church you choose isn't meant to define you as a person, it is there to help you as a guideline in uniting with people of like mindedness so that with their help and experience you might find out who you are.

I don't understand how this hell and tortue you speak of is "not in the bible". I recall the book of Job where God can bring his wrath upon the highest believers at any point just to show that he is all powerful.

Even if you don't recognize the old testament, the majority of christians will regard that as part of the Bible.

So in short my point is that you can't understand it. So take it for what it is and discover it for yourself. Do not preach unto others and dismiss what they believe it. The righteous thing to do is not be negative, but otherwise be confident in yours and lead by example. If others like how you lead your life, they will question you and they will follow.

Pushing something on somebody doesn't make any one out to be a believer.

adios

07-12-2008, 01:51 PM

That's actually not really how logic or science work. Having no evidence for the existence of something doesn't put its potential existence at an equal footing with its thus far observed non-existence.
I understand what you're saying.

Just because there is more evidence of God not existing then the other side of the table must hold more weight compared to the side with faith and God followers, right?

Well uh, that's fine and all. Yet people with no faith in God can only bring up so many excuses/facts for it not existing. I choose not to believe in God myself, because I'm a man of Science. Still, that doesn't help me out much in this topic.

All it's good for is bringing up facts to disprove to a certain extent there ever being a man with a power level of 9000 who could do whatever it is he felt like doing.

adios

07-12-2008, 01:56 PM

Nope, never watched it.

But the overwhelming majority of people will tell you he is a real person, and just like i posted, not one necessarily with any kind of powers, just a guy named Jesus of Nazareth.

and ofcourse you can't prove God's existence, Faith is the entire basis of it. Faith is what keeps so many coming back for more, but at the same time it pushes away so many from the church because they can't see or hear it. It all depends on the type of person you are and if you are ready to accept something like that.

I personally don't know for sure that my religion is true, but i do not understand why someone would despite its factual basis WANT to believe something like there is no God and there is no point to life. If thats your idealism then why not just roll over and give up?
It's not. All I want is to gain more knowledge and to see actually facts of this higher being.

metalman

07-12-2008, 02:18 PM

I like how you overanaylze everything to the fullest extent

Its quite understandble to me how someone who said this...

I personally don't know for sure that my religion is true...

...would say the above. You have entered a discussion of subjects you clearly do not understand even a little. So any in depth discussion will seem confusing to you...and seem 'over analyzed'.

ALL Churches are man made, God did not come down and construct the churches and their traditions and beliefs.

False. Your Bible teaches the opposite.
(unless of course youre only refering to physical buildings)

My point being is that you find something you like, that feels right, and you go with it.

False. And this is is a really crucial one. The Bible says this...
" There is a way that seemeth (feels) right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death (eternal destruction)."

Again, you obviously do not know the Bible or its teachings.

I don't understand how this hell and tortue you speak of is "not in the bible". Even if you don't recognize the old testament, the majority of christians will regard that as part of the Bible.

Oh make no mistake...a hell IS in the Bible.
However, the Bible does NOT teach an 'eternal burning place' where those condemned LIVE forever in torment. That is NOT a Biblical teaching.
The Bible teaches utter and permanent destruction. Only the righteous followers of Christ LIVE forever.

My advice to you is this, study the Bible more.....setting aside the nonsense you have been taught. Before entering into Biblical discussions with hard concrete ideas you had better know a little about the Book in question.

metalman

07-12-2008, 02:23 PM

Oops...dbl post.

yerrow

07-12-2008, 09:04 PM

You don't know the modern Catholic Church then. If you came to my church for a week and heard the sermon's you would think differently. The tradition is not held higher then the message, it is simply a guideline to how the mass is held, the message is different every week.

he was jesus the "nazorite"
nazareth as a town did not exist at the time of jesus

a nazorite was not someone from nazareth

metalman

07-12-2008, 10:53 PM

he was jesus the "nazorite"
nazareth as a town did not exist at the time of jesus

a nazorite was not someone from nazareth

I can dig what youre saying about Christ being a "Nazarite" or a "Nazarene"
(like Biblical Sampson and others) and I know there is slight hoopla from some 'thinkers' about Nazareth supposedly not existing at the time of Christ...BUT, in honesty, the evidence, both historical and archaelogical, is NOT on that side at all.
And then of course, if you add the Biblical record theres another serious 'problem' for that theory.

Interesting comment however.

_Christian_

07-12-2008, 11:00 PM

BKgen®

07-12-2008, 11:01 PM

that OP smells of poopie.

greasemunkey

07-13-2008, 01:14 AM

"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" "believe in him and you shall be saved"

yerrow

07-13-2008, 09:03 AM

I can dig what youre saying about Christ being a "Nazarite" or a "Nazarene"
(like Biblical Sampson and others) and I know there is slight hoopla from some 'thinkers' about Nazareth supposedly not existing at the time of Christ...BUT, in honesty, the evidence, both historical and archaelogical, is NOT on that side at all.
And then of course, if you add the Biblical record theres another serious 'problem' for that theory.

Interesting comment however.

there is no map from jesus' lifetime that shows nazareth being in existance

quickdodge®

07-13-2008, 09:30 AM

My advice to you is this, study the Bible more.....setting aside the nonsense you have been taught.

Are you an ordained minister? Or a practicing one? I'm not trying to "e-thug" on you by any means (just asking), but how are you able to give advice on something like religion? If I understand correctly, there are lots of religions out there that teach lots of different ways and views and interpretations. How do YOU know that what he has been taught is nonsense? How do you know that what you've been taught is NOT nonsense? I understand that when you enter a faith, that you're supposed to be trusting and true to that faith and all its teachings (right?) and that all other faiths are wrong. Am I right?

Hopefully that makes sense and you won't take this as a bash (I'm thinking you probably will). I personally don't get into religion too much because of all the soap opera-esque dealings that come with it. That's why I don't get into discussions about this subject. I do like to read it though and see what people think of it. Later, QD.

metalman

07-13-2008, 12:19 PM

Are you an ordained minister? Or a practicing one?

No. On that subject, many 'ordained' ministers are not ordained of God.
The ordination of men/churches is worthless....at least according to Scripture....one must bear the fruits of one ordained of God, and be in harmony with His Word to be truly ordained. At least thats what the Christian Bible teaches. By that 'test' most so called ordained ministers fail.

how are you able to give advice on something like religion? If I understand correctly, there are lots of religions out there that teach lots of different ways and views and interpretations. How do YOU know that what he has been taught is nonsense? How do you know that what you've been taught is NOT nonsense?

First, my 'advice' pertained specifically to one religion...Biblical Christianity...which the other party in my discussion at least halfway professes. It is true that there are many 'interpretations' placed UPON the Bible by man. Its true (when compared to what the Bible actually says) that most are erroneous. Its also true that if one divests themselves of their preconcieved notions and ideas and simply reads the Bible, letting it speak and interpret itself, many answers can easily be obtained. Men tend to make it more complicated then it is. There are many reasons for this, the most obvious being self promotion. Example, the TV minister typically claims to be a 'minister of god' there to promote the 'word of god' yet most tv ministers spend a majority of time defying what Christ instructed with regard to money in the very Book they refer to as the word of God. Futhermore many have developed their own warped 'slant' on Biblical topics which they wish to sell/offer...RATHER then simply expound the Scriptures as Christ instructed.
To qualify anyones advice on Christianity one need do nothing more then check that word or advice against what the Bible plainly states, honestly seeking the answer.

As for the question about what 'he' has been taught....I assume youre refering to our catholic friend. I have studied catholic history, doctrine, dogma, writings, and teachings intently for many years. I constantly compare what the church claims with what the Bible plainly states. They are not in harmony at all. The catholic church claims to be the ONLY TRUE church of Christ...and repository of truth. Thats NONSENSE. That is a LIE. The catholic church (organization) does not meet ANY Biblical standard of a christian church, even openly defys the Bible and the commandments of God with its rituals, rites, & dogmas, and thinks itself greater then God in that it teaches that God/Jesus are bound by the decisions of the church. The pope claims infalibility when God alone is infallible. The pope claims to be "God on earth"...not only is that nonsense, its blasphemy. Child molester priests claim to have 'god-like' power to fogive YOUR sin along as do sinful popes. The church claims you can buy your loved ones way out of 'purgatory' a made up place the Bible teaches doesnt even exist. All NONSENSE!!!!!! :) There is much much more...it would likely bore you to death. As an American I defend everyones right to whatever religion (or no religion) one may chose. But please, dont try to tell me something is Christian when I can plainly read the Christian Bible and see that its nonsense.

To be very clear, I do know that many catholic people are sincere and following everything they know to be right. Those people, whoever they be, whwerever they be, are Gods children and He is watching over them....according to the Christian Bible. I am not judging them. That Book states that God is calling ALL out from religious confusion. My comments are directed at a religous system, not the victims of that system.

As for me, I would say that most all of us have been taught at least some nonsense at one point or another. You have touched on an important question, how does one figure out what the nonsense is? For the Christian thats pretty simple....Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. The Biblical Christian has the promise of God to assist them in that process. The problem is that many never take God up on His promise or do the study. One must honestly seek truth to find it.

I understand that when you enter a faith, that you're supposed to be trusting and true to that faith and all its teachings (right?) and that all other faiths are wrong. Am I right?

Again, with Christianity, there would be no major difference of doctrine or faith IF people honestly sought the truth. There is only one Bible, one God, one Jesus, one holy Spirit, and one path.....at least according to Christ the author of that religion. But, humans are proud, and self interested, they like tradition, and hate to admit their wrongs...add to that mix the temptations of the devil and his goals...and you see the result....confusion. The Bible refers to that condition as "babylon"....which originates from 'babel'....meaning confused language. I sympathize with agnostics and others who simply tire of the confusion they see and say oh forget it.

The other factor here is that all Christians are at a different place on that one path, so some apparent conflicts turn out not to be once more growth/understanding takes place.
Denominations are the biggest hinderance in Christianity. Each wishes to promote itself and its own agenda rather then honestly seeking the truth and will of the God they claim to serve. But, the Bible fortells this condition in prophecy so its no surprise to the student of Scripture.

Hopefully that makes sense and you won't take this as a bash (I'm thinking you probably will). I personally don't get into religion too much because of all the soap opera-esque dealings that come with it. That's why I don't get into discussions about this subject. I do like to read it though and see what people think of it. Later, QD.

Why would think I'd take your comments or questions as a 'bash'?
I dont at all. The discussions here are intended to provoke thought....and some study perhaps. I appreciate your questions.

I dont feel I am the repository of all truth. I am always learning. But I guess I do have the advantages of age and lots of study. I tend to examine what others say about the Bible against that book itself. I can honestly tell you that much of what churches claim is taught there....isnt. But, one will have to confirm that for themselves.