Bush gunnin for Iran?

[0p7!mu5]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/06/29/us.iran/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
:2up::2up: AS if we dont have enough goin on as it is.... good job bush.. ass...

[BanginJimmy]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/06/29/us.iran/index.html?iref=mpstoryview
:2up::2up: AS if we dont have enough goin on as it is.... good job bush.. ass...

Do you really think that if the US was operating in Iran it would be on the news? This is complete BS.

[Danny]

The Bush administration has launched a "significant escalation" of covert operations in Iran, sending U.S. commandos to spy on the country's nuclear facilities and undermine the Islamic republic's government, journalist Seymour Hersh said Sunday.


HAHAA... "significant escalation", where does the news companies get this BS. CNN and others only wish they had the slightest idea about our covert ops. Oh i know where they got it from, last press conference they debriefed the press about all the covert ops the US does.. haha..


Congress has authorized up to $400 million to fund the secret campaign, which involves U.S. special operations troops and Iranian dissidents.

I remember seeing "covert ops in iran" as a line item in lasts years expense report. News these days is better than watching the Sci-Fi channel.

Most of the time when you see something on CNN or Fox, or anywhere for that matter they only have thier political agenda in mind.

[Spektrewing386]

What would special ops be doing there in the first place, iran hasnt attacked anybody in more than 100 years. as one online video blogger put it: ".......world war 3, but this time we get to play Germany!"



I remember reading that the iranians dont even like their leader... He's the Iranian Bush.



Our administration has already cried wolf once before, I don't think they will get away with doing it again.

[preferredduck]

umm it's been pretty obvious for a while that bush wants iran. he has threatened them about their nukes, etc. He will try to get the country involved in iran before his terms up. BET IT!!!

[0p7!mu5]

i just find i funny that "covert Ops" was put on a public news site. Even if it was like that at this point our troops are spread rather thin as it is between Iraq and Afghanistan. So my whole things is why? At this point just about anybody in senate would be a damn fool to start another war or conflict right now after how iraq has turned out.

[preferredduck]

i just find i funny that "covert Ops" was put on a public news site. Even if it was like that at this point our troops are spread rather thin as it is between Iraq and Afghanistan. So my whole things is why? At this point just about anybody in senate would be a damn fool to start another war or conflict right now after how iraq has turned out.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is the motive. think about who owns most of the companies profiting off the war.

[0p7!mu5]

true bids are already goin up for oil fields out there now so the cats are out of the bag.

[0p7!mu5]

and to prove that point......http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/30/news/international/iraq_bids/index.htm?postversion=2008063014
its like damn after this long they just gave up the wmd liberation of Iraq lie huh?

[Spektrewing386]

if war is on the brink, you will see massive protest in america.

it will never happen... theoretically what happens in congress can be decided by us, the people... and we dont want stupid war.

[0p7!mu5]

theoretically..

[BanginJimmy]

If the US gets involved militarily it will be because we are backing Israel. I seriously doubt that Israel will need our help to run through the Iranian military though. Someday people will learn that Israel is not the country to screw with, they have an itchy trigger finger over there and they have the weaponry to back it up.

[0p7!mu5]

yeah that is true and from how i understand it they are an addtional reason as to why most arab nations/ terrorists have beef with us in the first place. i usually hear them bring that up.

[Spektrewing386]

israel defended itself from all sides against a 4 nation attack and did it in 6 days. Under UN General Assembly Resolution 194 Jerusalem is considered an international city, kind of like Vatican City. But after 1967 the whole city came under Israeli control. So basically Israel is going against the UN.

What they should do is give Palestine their nation with Jerusalem independant or split up.


And this whole Iran thing... Cheney and Bush cant trick us twice. I do believe that Bush will be impeached or assasinated if he even gets us close to war. Either that or the majority of the troops will refuse to fight, with generals resigning left and right.

[preferredduck]

israel defended itself from all sides against a 4 nation attack and did it in 6 days. Under UN General Assembly Resolution 194 Jerusalem is considered an international city, kind of like Vatican City. But after 1967 the whole city came under Israeli control. So basically Israel is going against the UN.

What they should do is give Palestine their nation with Jerusalem independant or split up.


And this whole Iran thing... Cheney and Bush cant trick us twice. I do believe that Bush will be impeached or assasinated if he even gets us close to war. Either that or the majority of the troops will refuse to fight, with generals resigning left and right.

i would love to see the troops quit this war we are in noiw, it's vietnam all over agai, the folks with the $ don't want the war to end. . . ever.

[BanginJimmy]

And this whole Iran thing... Cheney and Bush cant trick us twice. I do believe that Bush will be impeached or assasinated

What impeachable offense has been committed? Iran clearly falls into the scope of the war on terrorism.



Either that or the majority of the troops will refuse to fight, with generals resigning left and right.

This wont happen and we all know it. I truely hope that any soldier, sailor, Marine, or airman that refuses to fight is shot as a traitor and for cowardise. Generals can go ahead and resign. If they resign they lose their retirement no matter how many years of service they have.

[Spektrewing386]

What impeachable offense has been committed? Iran clearly falls into the scope of the war on terrorism.
fooling the american nation into a war with no just cause.

but im lazy, so copy/paste


Articles of Impeachment

of

President George W. Bush

and

Vice President Richard B. Cheney,
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice,
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales



The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States, shall be removed from Office on Impeachment for, and Conviction of, Treason, Bribery, or other high Crimes and Misdemeanors. - - ARTICLE II, SECTION 4 OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

President George W. Bush, Vice President Richard B. Cheney, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales have committed violations and subversions of the Constitution of the United States of America in an attempt to carry out with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes and deprivations of the civil rights of the people of the United States and other nations, by assuming powers of an imperial executive unaccountable to law and usurping powers of the Congress, the Judiciary and those reserved to the people of the United States, by the following acts:

1) Seizing power to wage wars of aggression in defiance of the U.S. Constitution, the U.N. Charter and the rule of law; carrying out a massive assault on and occupation of Iraq, a country that was not threatening the United States, resulting in the death and maiming of over one hundred thousand Iraqis, and thousands of U.S. G.I.s.

2) Lying to the people of the U.S., to Congress, and to the U.N., providing false and deceptive rationales for war.

3) Authorizing, ordering and condoning direct attacks on civilians, civilian facilities and locations where civilian casualties were unavoidable.

4) Instituting a secret and illegal wiretapping and spying operation against the people of the United States through the National Security Agency.

5) Threatening the independence and sovereignty of Iraq by belligerently changing its government by force and assaulting Iraq in a war of aggression.

6) Authorizing, ordering and condoning assassinations, summary executions, kidnappings, secret and other illegal detentions of individuals, torture and physical and psychological coercion of prisoners to obtain false statements concerning acts and intentions of governments and individuals and violating within the United States, and by authorizing U.S. forces and agents elsewhere, the rights of individuals under the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

7) Making, ordering and condoning false statements and propaganda about the conduct of foreign governments and individuals and acts by U.S. government personnel; manipulating the media and foreign governments with false information; concealing information vital to public discussion and informed judgment concerning acts, intentions and possession, or efforts to obtain weapons of mass destruction in order to falsely create a climate of fear and destroy opposition to U.S. wars of aggression and first strike attacks.

8) Violations and subversions of the Charter of the United Nations and international law, both a part of the "Supreme Law of the land" under Article VI, paragraph 2, of the Constitution, in an attempt to commit with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes in wars and threats of aggression against Afghanistan, Iraq and others and usurping powers of the United Nations and the peoples of its nations by bribery, coercion and other corrupt acts and by rejecting treaties, committing treaty violations, and frustrating compliance with treaties in order to destroy any means by which international law and institutions can prevent, affect, or adjudicate the exercise of U.S. military and economic power against the international community.

9) Acting to strip United States citizens of their constitutional and human rights, ordering indefinite detention of citizens, without access to counsel, without charge, and without opportunity to appear before a civil judicial officer to challenge the detention, based solely on the discretionary designation by the Executive of a citizen as an "enemy combatant."

10) Ordering indefinite detention of non-citizens in the United States and elsewhere, and without charge, at the discretionary designation of the Attorney General or the Secretary of Defense.

11) Ordering and authorizing the Attorney General to override judicial orders of release of detainees under INS jurisdiction, even where the judicial officer after full hearing determines a detainee is wrongfully held by the government.

12) Authorizing secret military tribunals and summary execution of persons who are not citizens who are designated solely at the discretion of the Executive who acts as indicting official, prosecutor and as the only avenue of appellate relief.

13) Refusing to provide public disclosure of the identities and locations of persons who have been arrested, detained and imprisoned by the U.S. government in the United States, including in response to Congressional inquiry.

14) Use of secret arrests of persons within the United States and elsewhere and denial of the right to public trials.

15) Authorizing the monitoring of confidential attorney-client privileged communications by the government, even in the absence of a court order and even where an incarcerated person has not been charged with a crime.

16) Ordering and authorizing the seizure of assets of persons in the United States, prior to hearing or trial, for lawful or innocent association with any entity that at the discretionary designation of the Executive has been deemed "terrorist."

17) Engaging in criminal neglect in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, depriving thousands of people in Louisiana, Mississippi and other Gulf States of urgently needed support, causing mass suffering and unnecessary loss of life.

18) Institutionalization of racial and religious profiling and authorization of domestic spying by federal law enforcement on persons based on their engagement in noncriminal religious and political activity.

19) Refusal to provide information and records necessary and appropriate for the constitutional right of legislative oversight of executive functions.

20) Rejecting treaties protective of peace and human rights and abrogation of the obligations of the United States under, and withdrawal from, international treaties and obligations without consent of the legislative branch, and including termination of the ABM treaty between the United States and Russia, and rescission of the authorizing signature from the Treaty of Rome which served as the basis for the International Criminal Court.






This wont happen and we all know it. I truely hope that any soldier, sailor, Marine, or airman that refuses to fight is shot as a traitor and for cowardise. Generals can go ahead and resign. If they resign they lose their retirement no matter how many years of service they have.


traitor? do you know how stupid and ridiculous war it will be, just to stroll up to the Iranian border, then attacking... justifing your fight on evidence that doesnt exist. With the president going agasint the evidence presented to him by the CIA. i say anyone that understands that there is no cause for the war and actually wants to fight (not forced) is a traitor.

If I was in the military and we were going to attack Iran, I would be very confused as to why.

Like honestly, do you still believe what the government tells you? The government stopped listening to the CIA back in 2002 or so.


Its hard to fight when you dont have anything to fight for.

[BanginJimmy]

1) Seizing power to wage wars of aggression in defiance of the U.S. Constitution, the U.N. Charter and the rule of law; carrying out a massive assault on and occupation of Iraq, a country that was not threatening the United States, resulting in the death and maiming of over one hundred thousand Iraqis, and thousands of U.S. G.I.s.

not impeachable as those exact powers were given to bush by congressional bills that passed in the House on Oct 10, 2002, and the senate on Oct 11, 2002.


2) Lying to the people of the U.S., to Congress, and to the U.N., providing false and deceptive rationales for war.

Lying to congress is impeachable, lying to the UN and the people is not, but theres no proof that he did lie, only that he overvalued some info and undervalued other info despite what some people in the intelligence community reccomended.



3) Authorizing, ordering and condoning direct attacks on civilians, civilian facilities and locations where civilian casualties were unavoidable.

you will have to find info that this even happened. Also this reasoning would mean that EVERY US president that was in office during a time of war was guilty of this offense.


4) Instituting a secret and illegal wiretapping and spying operation against the people of the United States through the National Security Agency.

done with congressional approval with the passing of the Patriot Act.



5) Threatening the independence and sovereignty of Iraq by belligerently changing its government by force and assaulting Iraq in a war of aggression.

He received congressional approval to do this. If this was an impeachable charge, where are the charges against the rest of congressional supporters?


6) Authorizing, ordering and condoning assassinations, summary executions, kidnappings, secret and other illegal detentions of individuals, torture and physical and psychological coercion of prisoners to obtain false statements concerning acts and intentions of governments and individuals and violating within the United States, and by authorizing U.S. forces and agents elsewhere, the rights of individuals under the First, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth and Eighth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

Authorizing assassinations is nothing new in a time of war, no charge there. No such thing as an illegal detention during a time of war. Especially considering that those that were captured were not in recognized uniform the military is authorized to summerially execute them according to the Geneva Convention.



7) Making, ordering and condoning false statements and propaganda about the conduct of foreign governments and individuals and acts by U.S. government personnel; manipulating the media and foreign governments with false information; concealing information vital to public discussion and informed judgment concerning acts, intentions and possession, or efforts to obtain weapons of mass destruction in order to falsely create a climate of fear and destroy opposition to U.S. wars of aggression and first strike attacks.

not an impeachable offense. Propoganda against a foreign govt is nothing new and not in any way, shape , or form illegal.



8) Violations and subversions of the Charter of the United Nations and international law, both a part of the "Supreme Law of the land" under Article VI, paragraph 2, of the Constitution, in an attempt to commit with impunity crimes against peace and humanity and war crimes in wars and threats of aggression against Afghanistan, Iraq and others and usurping powers of the United Nations and the peoples of its nations by bribery, coercion and other corrupt acts and by rejecting treaties, committing treaty violations, and frustrating compliance with treaties in order to destroy any means by which international law and institutions can prevent, affect, or adjudicate the exercise of U.S. military and economic power against the international community.

ignoring the UN is not an impeachable offense.


9) Acting to strip United States citizens of their constitutional and human rights, ordering indefinite detention of citizens, without access to counsel, without charge, and without opportunity to appear before a civil judicial officer to challenge the detention, based solely on the discretionary designation by the Executive of a citizen as an "enemy combatant."

I was unaware that any US citizens that were in the US at the time were being held at Gitmo. If that is the case then it is a violation.


10) Ordering indefinite detention of non-citizens in the United States and elsewhere, and without charge, at the discretionary designation of the Attorney General or the Secretary of Defense.

Enemy combatants do not fall under the rules of US civil or criminal law, they fall under the Geneva Convention and no rules set in palce by that have been violated.


11) Ordering and authorizing the Attorney General to override judicial orders of release of detainees under INS jurisdiction, even where the judicial officer after full hearing determines a detainee is wrongfully held by the government.
The judiciary has no juristiction in this case though. These men are not being held and tried for criminal matters, they are being held and tried as enemy combatants.


12) Authorizing secret military tribunals and summary execution of persons who are not citizens who are designated solely at the discretion of the Executive who acts as indicting official, prosecutor and as the only avenue of appellate relief.
those not in uniform are subject to summary execution according to the Geneva Convention, as are the military tribunals used to try them.


13) Refusing to provide public disclosure of the identities and locations of persons who have been arrested, detained and imprisoned by the U.S. government in the United States, including in response to Congressional inquiry.

we didnt do that during WWII either. Whats your point?


14) Use of secret arrests of persons within the United States and elsewhere and denial of the right to public trials.
does this mean that the govt is supposed to take out an add in the newspaper to let everyone know who is going to be arrested and when?


15) Authorizing the monitoring of confidential attorney-client privileged communications by the government, even in the absence of a court order and even where an incarcerated person has not been charged with a crime.

when you have no right to an atty, then there is no atty-client privlage.



16) Ordering and authorizing the seizure of assets of persons in the United States, prior to hearing or trial, for lawful or innocent association with any entity that at the discretionary designation of the Executive has been deemed "terrorist."
not impechable, but definately a violation of the 4th amendment.


17) Engaging in criminal neglect in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, depriving thousands of people in Louisiana, Mississippi and other Gulf States of urgently needed support, causing mass suffering and unnecessary loss of life.

this is laughable, especailly because the blame for that falls on the state and local govts, not the federal govt.



18) Institutionalization of racial and religious profiling and authorization of domestic spying by federal law enforcement on persons based on their engagement in noncriminal religious and political activity.

profiling is never going to go away as long as their are intelligent people in law enforcement.


19) Refusal to provide information and records necessary and appropriate for the constitutional right of legislative oversight of executive functions.
dont know much about this so no further comment.


20) Rejecting treaties protective of peace and human rights and abrogation of the obligations of the United States under, and withdrawal from, international treaties and obligations without consent of the legislative branch, and including termination of the ABM treaty between the United States and Russia, and rescission of the authorizing signature from the Treaty of Rome which served as the basis for the International Criminal Court.

I would love to see some law that says the President cannot pull the US out of a treaty.

[preferredduck]

[QUOTE=BanginJimmy]What impeachable offense has been committed? Iran clearly falls into the scope of the war on terrorism.


A False war on terror, example how many times do politicians say this in a speech, 100+, and to the 20 point list, it is all correct. the patriot act stripped our rights out from under us and bush can make whatever law he wants without congress. look at some of the laws he passed, it helps him and nobody else. he is a dictator, or a wanna be dictator and sheeple keep following the idiots.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-594683847743189197

watch this 2 hour video, we won't have a constitution soon because they will have the new world order.

[BanginJimmy]

[QUOTE=preferredduck the patriot act stripped our rights out from under us and bush can make whatever law he wants without congress. look at some of the laws he passed, it helps him and nobody else. he is a dictator, or a wanna be dictator and sheeple keep following the idiots.[/QUOTE]

what laws has be passed without congressional approval? Also, dont forget that Bush had approval with the partiot act. I hate that act and I hope it gets repealed, but we all know that it isnt going to be. Congress also likes the act because of the greater power it gives them.



And as I have already stated, all but 1 or 2 of the points listed on that are not impeachable, or even close to unlawful.

[Spektrewing386]

And as I have already stated, all but 1 or 2 of the points listed on that are not impeachable, or even close to unlawful.


Tell that to these people:
http://www.johnmurphyforcongress.org/images/iraqi%2520child%25201-05%2520193.jpeg

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/6225/woundedamericansoldiergv5.jpg
What goes through their heads when they find out that this never had to happen?

[BanginJimmy]

[QUOTE=Spektrewing386]Tell that to these people:
http://www.johnmurphyforcongress.org/images/iraqi%2520child%25201-05%2520193.jpeg
war is hell and a sad part of war is that innocent people get killed. Do you think FDR should have been impeached when the US was carpet bombing Berlin, Munich, Dresden and Tokyo?

What about Truman when he ordered the nukes be used on Nagakasi and Hiroshima?

LBJ when Hanoi was being bombed?

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/6225/woundedamericansoldiergv5.jpg

He knew the risks when he signed his name to the contract just like I did all 3 times I put my name on the dotted line.


What goes through their heads when they find out that this never had to happen?

The Iraqi people stood a good chance of it happening anyways from their own govt. The US Service member knew that was a possibility, life sucks, but thats the cost of freedom.

[Spektrewing386]

Of course there is colateral damage.

But the thing is... World War 2 was justified, going after the terrorists in Afghanistan was justified... Not many people say that invading Iraq was justified.

[BanginJimmy]

Of course there is colateral damage.

But the thing is... World War 2 was justified, going after the terrorists in Afghanistan was justified... Not many people say that invading Iraq was justified.


Not many people because of hindsight being 20/20.

Remember that the US was anything but neutral before we officially entered WWII. We were arming the Chiang Kai-sec and his anti communist army, and of course there was the lend lease program to support the British. If it werent for those 2 things, its very likely that the Japanese would have never attacked Pearl Harbor and brought the US into the war.

[Spektrewing386]

justified as in there is a proper cause. of course pearl habor is a huge factor... but also the fact that germany took over about 85% of europe and north africa, and the japanese doing the same. Even before offical involvment, many American pilots flew combat missions with the RAF. To many, it was a simple good vs evil. being the good samaritan.

But in general, US foreign relations is ****ed up. In the 80s we sold weapons and technology, including materials that can be used to make chemical weapons to Iraq for use against Iran. One of our own destroyers was sitting in Iranian waters and shot down an Iranian airliner killing all 300 or so people. We wanted Iraq to attack Iran and helped them become the military power they were to do the job. We even attacked some Iranian targets ourselves. Yet Iraq takes 1 foot into Kuwait and we destroy their military (which was partially funded by us).

[BanginJimmy]

justified as in there is a proper cause. of course pearl habor is a huge factor... but also the fact that germany took over about 85% of europe and north africa, and the japanese doing the same. Even before offical involvment, many American pilots flew combat missions with the RAF. To many, it was a simple good vs evil. being the good samaritan.

But in general, US foreign relations is ****ed up. In the 80s we sold weapons and technology, including materials that can be used to make chemical weapons to Iraq for use against Iran. One of our own destroyers was sitting in Iranian waters and shot down an Iranian airliner killing all 300 or so people. We wanted Iraq to attack Iran and helped them become the military power they were to do the job. We even attacked some Iranian targets ourselves. Yet Iraq takes 1 foot into Kuwait and we destroy their military (which was partially funded by us).

so the US was justified in WWII for attacking a country that didnt attack us because they took over most of Europe, but in 1991 we werent justified to do the exact same thing when Iraq invaded Kuwait?

[Spektrewing386]

in 1991, it was justified in my opinion. They blatenly attacked another sovereign nation, so we defended the victim. Putting aside the fact that its an oil rich nation whos capital is right on the Persian Gulf... its like seeing some lady in the street being mugged... so help the women out!


Same thing in my view on World War 2, the axis attacked our allies, making europe it's playground. which american didnt want to personally punch hitler in the face?

[FlipKing]

I have decided if the **** gets bad enough, i shall ramble off into the mountains and live in the wilderness. Just forget and avoid all this crap.

[BanginJimmy]

which american didnt want to personally punch hitler in the face?


Actually the war in Europe wasnt very popular in the US. Most people thought we should take care of Japan first, then maybe get into Europe later if needed.

[Spektrewing386]

The Tripartite Pact of the Axis powers says that an attack by one axis power is an attack by all axis powers. On December 11, 1941 Germany and Italy offically declared war on the United States. Combined with the fact that German submarines were attacking merchant ships in the atlantic ocean, both allied and american ships that is.

Wasnt very popular? somewhat true. a majority of the population didnt want war, but the germans say "tough sh!t, heres war", its hard not to get riled up when you know you're saving the world.




why are we talking about world war 2? lol
so, shall we discuss the Punic Wars tomorrow?

[preferredduck]

what laws has be passed without congressional approval? Also, dont forget that Bush had approval with the partiot act. I hate that act and I hope it gets repealed, but we all know that it isnt going to be. Congress also likes the act because of the greater power it gives them.



And as I have already stated, all but 1 or 2 of the points listed on that are not impeachable, or even close to unlawful.

i can't remember the laws at the moment but i do remember he signed a few things without congress and basically said he can do what he wants and how he wants. you guys check out th link in my earlier post, it's very interesting and you will see a pattern for the wars we have been in. We went to war without congress approval, last time i checked that is illegal. It's not just bush, but everybody with money. please keep supporting these guys, and don't mind the man behind the curtain.

all wars in history are supposivly justified, we ahd a warning from austrailia that a jap carrier was heading our way, we ignored it. I think the lucitania was sunk to enter another war and germany warned people not to get on the boat in the new york times, but we sent it anyways. like i said don't mind the men behind the curtain.

[Spektrewing386]

Bush argued that he did not need congressional approval to invade Iraq, ultimately both houses of Congress approved a resolution authorizing him to do so. So he would have done it either way. And with the War Powers Resolution Act, the president can most likley bypass congress.

[0p7!mu5]

isnt that kind of like unbalancing the seperation of powers a bit in a way? Correct me if im wrong

[preferredduck]

isnt that kind of like unbalancing the seperation of powers a bit in a way? Correct me if im wrong

agreed. thee branches were set up so nobody could get ultimate power which he did. it would not suprise me if we had a TERROR attack before the election and bush declared marshall law. if so i will get a gun and go to washington.