Obama to tear apart the country

[On_Her_Face]

Does anybody else feel like Obama will tear apart (divide) the country more than it already is? Feel otherwise? Discuss.

[Motivation]

How can someone that is not for what America stands for plus having a wife that is not, and has never been "proud" of this country bring this country closer together? She said she would only be proud if America elected a black president, I don't care what color the president is along as the person stands behind America. (IMO it is just a racist for electing a black president JUST because he is black, as it is to NOT elect a black president because he is black) But anyways, I think a lot of things are going to get torn apart if Obama becomes president...

[TicketRedBB6]

Definately. I dont think he personally will do anything. But I think all this coming up lately will bring back the racism issues into full force and Obama eventually will have to pick a side, which will probably be with his pastor like it has been. Then the country will just start dividing over all kinds of race related issues. just my :2cents:

[Motivation]

Just something to think about... His church allows gays to be deacons or whatever, but they don't allow white ppl to join their church... How's that gonna work if he is our president? Also, everything might be fine for a while, but the first time something happens, the race card will be brought up... America can't get past race and it's a sad thing...

[On_Her_Face]

I agree with the above, but also he has not said anything about getting rid of earmarks on bills in congress which is really hurting America, nothing about changing social security in the right way. He does not address the right issues the right way IMO.

If Obama becomes the President of the United States, he will not be my President.

I would like to see some opinions from people who support Obama, don't worry, I'm not going to bash, might argue though.

[TicketRedBB6]

Just something to think about... His church allows gays to be deacons or whatever, but they don't allow white ppl to join their church... How's that gonna work if he is our president? Also, everything might be fine for a while, but the first time something happens, the race card will be brought up... America can't get past race and it's a sad thing...
That's so true. I doubt he'll get the nomination now because of all this stuff coming up lately and some people will say it was racist and fixed that he didn't win.

[On_Her_Face]

Obama is going to open old wounds and it is not going to be pretty.

[Motivation]

No doubt... scary thing is it could start another revolt depending on how Americans take to it... Ever notice he is always saying we need a "change" but he rarely states how he plans on "changing" things? If change is such a big deal to him, I think he should have an arguement on what specific things are included and what he plans to do about it...

[TIGERJC]

I highly doubt he can **** up the country or divide it anymore than it already is.

[Spektrewing386]

/\ lol yeah



basically is comes down to a giant dushe or a turd sandwich, take your pick


http://gordonunleashed.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/turdsandwich.jpg


http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/images/808/808_img_11.jpg

[Whiteboy™]

McCain for 08'

[tony]

I'll gladly argue for Obama when there is a valid point. Racism was brought into this by conservative talk radio and the Clinton campaign, Barack has gone out of his way not to make this campaign about race but now that he is the front runner all of a sudden its an issue.

Many times he has stated what he means by change but those who say he has substance hardly listen to what he has to say.

[tony]

No doubt... scary thing is it could start another revolt depending on how Americans take to it... Ever notice he is always saying we need a "change" but he rarely states how he plans on "changing" things? If change is such a big deal to him, I think he should have an arguement on what specific things are included and what he plans to do about it...

Did you not listen to the speech he gave on Tuesday? Again a prime example of opinion without taking the time to actually listen to what is said.

[KlassAct_EJ6]

Clinton, Obama, and McCain are all suspect to me. To this day I'm still undecided. I might have to do a write-in come November. I'll probably make a decision on picking someone later, but right now it's not possible for me.

[bigdare23]

Yes the country going to divide, but it's not going to because of Obama. It's going to be because of dumb attitudes like this




If Obama becomes the President of the United States, he will not be my President.

[blackshine007]

I would like to mention this, Obama is trying his best to ride the fine line between the races. So what if is former pastor has off the wall political views. That don't mean that everyone in the church shares the same views. What no one has mentioned when you listen to fox news is that his pastor was a former marine and has been through alot. The man has seen alot. Even though I too don't agree with what he believes politically, he like any other american, has his right to his own opinion and shouldn't no one else be blamed for it but him.

What's killing me is that it's not Obama that's will break apart the country, but the media. Think about this, Obama addresses race in Pennsylvania and completely nails it. I thought the speach was perfect. Right to the point. The conservatives like Sean Hannity, Mr. Limbaugh and people who don't need to be on radio like Al Sharpton are the ones who are breaking the country apart. The crap they're putting out there. For example, they know that they don't want Clinton in the office so Rush Limbaugh goes and tells his fan base to not vote for McCain (being that he had a huge lead over Huckabee anyways) but vote for Clinton so Obama won't make it to the primaries. The republicians have a bunch of tricks up there sleeves and if silently pulling the race card to keep Obama out is one of the things needed to do then they will do it. I'm not saying that McCain's camp is responsible for this (which it isn't) but just the aforementioned. I think ya'll should at least avoid Fox news because they're gonna mention some things that will naturally sway you towards the republican side.

One final note, there has to be a sides change, meaning the republicans time is up. Whether or not Obama makes it, Democrats need to be in the house, mainly for the economy sake. McCain (IMO) will basicly take off where Dubya left off. McCain openly admits knowing anything about economics and will continue the war in Iraq and terrorist. I'll vote for Billary if that means getting the republicans out of office.

[On_Her_Face]

Yes the country going to divide, but it's not going to because of Obama. It's going to be because of dumb attitudes like this

really explain? So since I do not support Obama, I am making the country more vulnerable to divide? No sir, you are the one with the "dumb attitude". Do you support George Bush, cause if not remember you are the that is making the country divide even more.

as for somebody with real input,


I would like to mention this, Obama is trying his best to ride the fine line between the races. So what if is former pastor has off the wall political views. That don't mean that everyone in the church shares the same views. What no one has mentioned when you listen to fox news is that his pastor was a former marine and has been through alot. The man has seen alot. Even though I too don't agree with what he believes politically, he like any other american, has his right to his own opinion and shouldn't no one else be blamed for it but him.

What's killing me is that it's not Obama that's will break apart the country, but the media. Think about this, Obama addresses race in Pennsylvania and completely nails it. I thought the speach was perfect. Right to the point. The conservatives like Sean Hennedy, Mr. Limbaugh and people who don't need to be on radio like Al Sharpton are the ones who are breaking the country apart. The crap they're putting out there. For example, they know that they don't want Clinton in the office so Rush Limbaugh goes and tells his fan base to not vote for McCain (being that he had a huge lead over Huckabee anyways) but vote for Clinton so Obama won't make it to the primaries. The republicians have a bunch of tricks up there sleeves and if silently pulling the race card to keep Obama out is one of the things needed to do then they will do it. I'm not saying that McCain's camp is responsible for this (which it isn't) but just the aforementioned. I think ya'll should at least avoid Fox news because they're gonna mention some things that will naturally sway you towards the republican side.

One final note, there has to be a sides change, meaning the republicans time is up. Whether or not Obama makes it, Democrats need to be in the house, mainly for the economy sake. McCain (IMO) will basicly take off where Dubya left off. McCain openly admits knowing anything about economics and will continue the war in Iraq and terrorist. I'll vote for Billary if that means getting the republicans out of office.

Yes I agree that his speech was perfect and I also think that America needs to get over racism, like Obama said that will not happen now, generations are still alive that went through these pains. Also I agree that the media is hurting Obama badly, however if he becomes president, i can see him messing up real bad. He has no experience with international affairs and we need somebody with that experience because America relies on other countries a.k.a. China.

[japan4racing]

Clinton, Obama, and McCain are all suspect to me. To this day I'm still undecided. I might have to do a write-in come November. I'll probably make a decision on picking someone later, but right now it's not possible for me.





werd.

the thing is there is never a candidate that you an agre with 100% but its usually over little things. with the ones we have for this election...i cant agree with any of them enough to warrant a vote from me. i dont care what anyone says mccain would be the best leader....but his policy on iraq is retarded at best. i cant vote for mccain...just cant do it. i was leaning towards obama but lately none of them make sense. my president was ron paul.

back on topic though...i dont think obama will tear apart or devide america. i think americans will tear apart and devide america. the reasons?....religion is becoming too involved in politics, we care more about if a gay person is getting married than weather or not our borders are secure, race is too big of a factor in most decisions, and this election is going to be about making history not change. its going to be about voting the first woman into office, or voting the first black man into office (i refuse to use the term african american) or the worst scenario....voting for anyone just to get the republicans out of office becuase of the current state of the country.

how do you honestly think any other president would have handled the situation bush is in now? you have to ask your self this to realize whats going on. it takes more than a president to go to war. the president cant say lets go to war and thats it....it takes others....many of those others were democrats. both reps and dems approved this war so to stick it on dubya alone is stupid.

[blackshine007]

What I don't like about our current president is that the moron decided to give Airbus a huge contract instead of giving it to Delta. Giving a big contract to a french company? WTF???? We have huge companies that are closing shop and relocating over seas because it's cheaper for them to operate. The president could've given businesses here a tax relief to keep the economy afloat. The Big 3 are falling apart. Detroit isn't what it was many a year ago. I hear that nowadays it's almost like a ghost town and they're moving factories out of the country to either Canada or Mexico. I blame thier moving on the President. And that's mainly because he was mismanaging the economy. I'm not sure if I can rely on McCain to be a better president than Bush, but like I said, he openly admits that he knows nothing about the economy and with it failing right now, that's not the answer I'm willing to listen to. Say what you want but maybe the republicans would do good in 2012 but they don't need to be in office this time around. I vote democrat this year. Maybe if all goes wrong I'll vote republican next election year.

[japan4racing]

What I don't like about our current president is that the moron decided to give Airbus a huge contract instead of giving it to Delta. Giving a big contract to a french company? WTF???? We have huge companies that are closing shop and relocating over seas because it's cheaper for them to operate. The president could've given businesses here a tax relief to keep the economy afloat. The Big 3 are falling apart. Detroit isn't what it was many a year ago. I hear that nowadays it's almost like a ghost town and they're moving factories out of the country to either Canada or Mexico. I blame thier moving on the President. And that's mainly because he was mismanaging the economy. I'm not sure if I can rely on McCain to be a better president than Bush, but like I said, he openly admits that he knows nothing about the economy and with it failing right now, that's not the answer I'm willing to listen to. Say what you want but maybe the republicans would do good in 2012 but they don't need to be in office this time around. I vote democrat this year. Maybe if all goes wrong I'll vote republican next election year.

you cant blame dubya for companies leaving this country. they are leaving becuase of tax breaks that are offered for going overseas. NAFTA is he real reason why they are leaving. do some research on that....your beloved dems helped bring it to us...thanks clinton! once again...the president canot just mismanage the economy. its not like he can sit in his ofice and say...lets go to war...now lets destroy the economy!!! it takes congress for **** like that to pass. quit blaming the president and start blameing the govt as a whole. you are voting for the wrong reasons my freind..you are voting the other party becuase you dont like the current party. why dont you actually look at the issues at hand and make an educated desicion based on what they have to offer not on what the previous regime offered.

i am not looking forward ot the next 4 years at all....becuase we are gonna have way too many sheep voting

[tony]

Yes I agree that his speech was perfect and I also think that America needs to get over racism, like Obama said that will not happen now, generations are still alive that went through these pains. Also I agree that the media is hurting Obama badly, however if he becomes president, i can see him messing up real bad. He has no experience with international affairs and we need somebody with that experience because America relies on other countries a.k.a. China.

Bill Clinton, J.F.K and even George W. Bush had no real experience either when they started their campaigns. McCain couldn't even distinguish Al Qaeda from Shiite while in their region, Obama was speaking about these groups at length back in 2002... Internationally I think Obama can do a lot of good for this country since he has a broad understanding due to his diverse upbringing.

[blackshine007]

you cant blame dubya for companies leaving this country. they are leaving becuase of tax breaks that are offered for going overseas. NAFTA is he real reason why they are leaving. do some research on that....your beloved dems helped bring it to us...thanks clinton! once again...the president canot just mismanage the economy. its not like he can sit in his ofice and say...lets go to war...now lets destroy the economy!!! it takes congress for **** like that to pass. quit blaming the president and start blameing the govt as a whole. you are voting for the wrong reasons my freind..you are voting the other party becuase you dont like the current party. why dont you actually look at the issues at hand and make an educated desicion based on what they have to offer not on what the previous regime offered.

i am not looking forward ot the next 4 years at all....becuase we are gonna have way too many sheep voting
Let me make it clear that I vote for the party who I feel will do best for me. If at the time the republicans offer something better, I'll vote republican. I voted for Bush second term because I didn't trust John Kerry or half of what he stood up for. I blame the president because he is, in a sense, responsible for them leaving and if his team could've seen that coming, there could've been a bill passed long time ago which would address the issue instead of the Big 3 shifting to out of the country. They found that it would be cheaper the route they're going according to NAFTA. Maybe his advisors mentioned that to him and maybe he blew it off thinking it will be fine. He veto'd many of other bills too. Not listening to his people. That's the point I'm trying to get at. In a sense, the auto manufactors are trying to save a dollar the best way they know how.

[On_Her_Face]

Bill Clinton, J.F.K and even George W. Bush had no real experience either when they started their campaigns. McCain couldn't even distinguish Al Qaeda from Shiite while in their region, Obama was speaking about these groups at length back in 2002... Internationally I think Obama can do a lot of good for this country since he has a broad understanding due to his diverse upbringing.

In no way do i think think that McCain is the best person for the job, nor Obama or Clinton, however i hate to say this I am in a decision between Clinton and McCain. Hillary does have more experience with international affairs, but that does not mean she will do better with these affairs.

Tony, I'm curious to your thoughts on what all Obama's wife has said about America and also Obama's "support" of America. Mainly about how he does not put his hand over his heart, does this bother you? I know Obama said "This is the USA not the USSR" but still how hard is it to just show this little peice of support?

"During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. -- United States Code, Title 36, Chapter 10, Sec. 171"

[tony]

Tony, I'm curious to your thoughts on what all Obama's wife has said about America and also Obama's "support" of America. Mainly about how he does not put his hand over his heart, does this bother you? I know Obama said "This is the USA not the USSR" but still how hard is it to just show this little peice of support?

"During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. -- United States Code, Title 36, Chapter 10, Sec. 171"

In regard to Michelle Obama, rookie mistake and slip of the tongue. What she said was a part of her stump speech from the beginning, that for the first time in her adult life she is really proud of this country. Is this unpatriotic? Depends on who you ask, if she had this complete disdain for America I do not believe she would be in the position she is in now.. and frankly it is a big eye opener when you see people opening their minds to something that for a long time has been taboo.. a black president. Politically, it was not the right thing to say but when you look at the human being side of things you can understand where she was coming from.

As for the hand over the heart: Barack explained that he was raised to hold his hand over his heart for the pledge, and at his side for the national anthem. Again, is this really unpatriotic? Everyone has their own thing when it comes to the national anthem, honestly who really cares? I could find plenty of corrupt politicians who put their hand over their heart and that makes them no more patriotic than Saddam Hussein.

What are people afraid of, that Barack will get in office and let Al Qaeda come to the U.S to take over the white house? Put all white people in slavery? C'mon now.. lets be realistic about this. All the talk of Patriotism as it pertains to Barack has been borderline pathetic. The man graduated from Harvard with a chance to go to wall street to make big money but instead put his efforts toward Civil Liberties. I'd love to see how many "patriots" would make a decision like that.

[carbon_crash]

Bill Clinton, J.F.K and even George W. Bush had no real experience either when they started their campaigns. McCain couldn't even distinguish Al Qaeda from Shiite while in their region, Obama was speaking about these groups at length back in 2002... Internationally I think Obama can do a lot of good for this country since he has a broad understanding due to his diverse upbringing.



Ever think Obama knows so much about Al Qaeda cause he is from a muslim background? Of all the info about the net, I believe he has muslim roots. Nothing against muslim people but muslim extremests are a larger factor in the war on terrorism. I agree that no nominee is the best the President, but we will see the out come. Change will definitely happen if Obama makes it into office, but I probably wont be for the better of America. Especially if M. Obama is just now "really" of this country. I think it is unpatriotic. And whats up with him not willing to wear the flag pin? Cause he is trying to change america's view on patriotism??Read:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3690000&page=1

[On_Her_Face]

In regard to Michelle Obama, rookie mistake and slip of the tongue. What she said was a part of her stump speech from the beginning, that for the first time in her adult life she is really proud of this country. Is this unpatriotic? Depends on who you ask, if she had this complete disdain for America I do not believe she would be in the position she is in now.. and frankly it is a big eye opener when you see people opening their minds to something that for a long time has been taboo.. a black president. Politically, it was not the right thing to say but when you look at the human being side of things you can understand where she was coming from.

As for the hand over the heart: Barack explained that he was raised to hold his hand over his heart for the pledge, and at his side for the national anthem. Again, is this really unpatriotic? Everyone has their own thing when it comes to the national anthem, honestly who really cares? I could find plenty of corrupt politicians who put their hand over their heart and that makes them no more patriotic than Saddam Hussein.

What are people afraid of, that Barack will get in office and let Al Qaeda come to the U.S to take over the white house? Put all white people in slavery? C'mon now.. lets be realistic about this. All the talk of Patriotism as it pertains to Barack has been borderline pathetic. The man graduated from Harvard with a chance to go to wall street to make big money but instead put his efforts toward Civil Liberties. I'd love to see how many "patriots" would make a decision like that.

LOL that actually made me laugh.

I just see Obama dividing the nation, not only because of him but because of the people. None of the candidates seem like they are going to make a positive "change". However I did like your post about how we need to change, meaning not having a Clinton or a Bush in the White House.

[Spektrewing386]

Ever think Obama knows so much about Al Qaeda cause he is from a muslim background? Of all the info about the net, I believe he has muslim roots. Nothing against muslim people but muslim extremests are a larger factor in the war on terrorism.


your point?



and yes he does have muslim roots.

[carbon_crash]

^^ point is, why vote a person into office if you know they have roots in what is a large source of terrorism?

[Spektrewing386]

ummm......

wow

i guess the only thing you know about Muslims is what you see when you turn on the evening news. Its ok though, my mom does that... but with motorcycles. The only thing she knows about motorcycles is what she sees in the evening news... so she thinks of course that they are death machines.

[ahmonrah]

this country has already been fvcked up. a black man as president won't make anything any worse.

should he become prez, he's inheriting a country with a rediulous deficit, versus the surplus during the clinton era that simply ~ :ninja: ~ when dubya entered his 3rd year in office. gas that costs more now than ever and falling strength of the american dollar.

put any person behind the wheel of a moving car with no brakes, they stand a good chance of crashing.

[carbon_crash]

ummm......

wow

i guess the only thing you know about Muslims is what you see when you turn on the evening news. Its ok though, my mom does that... but with motorcycles. The only thing she knows about motorcycles is what she sees in the evening news... so she thinks of course that they are death machines.

I know more about the subject than the news shows, but thats usually all people know so thats the only way to explain things so the average person will understand:ninja:

[japan4racing]

Let me make it clear that I vote for the party who I feel will do best for me. If at the time the republicans offer something better, I'll vote republican. I voted for Bush second term because I didn't trust John Kerry or half of what he stood up for. I blame the president because he is, in a sense, responsible for them leaving and if his team could've seen that coming, there could've been a bill passed long time ago which would address the issue instead of the Big 3 shifting to out of the country. They found that it would be cheaper the route they're going according to NAFTA. Maybe his advisors mentioned that to him and maybe he blew it off thinking it will be fine. He veto'd many of other bills too. Not listening to his people. That's the point I'm trying to get at. In a sense, the auto manufactors are trying to save a dollar the best way they know how.

you do realize that the reason these companies are leaving was because of legislature that was started 16 years ago right? this **** dont happen over night. and if you think it does you are a fool. we are dealing with **** today that is a direct result of roosevelts term in office. in the next 4-8 years when **** is ****ed up it will be interesting to see who is blamed. im sure by then you will understand what the previous presidents contribute to the current.

this whole thread is full of fail

[japan4racing]

put any person behind the wheel of a moving car with no brakes, they stand a good chance of crashing.

and that car just got up to speed when dubya took the wheel.

[ueyedgr8tness]

Believe me this country has been split.Just because of ppl like ls2 kid that thinks race has something to do with it.Well let me tell u it dont.We all have seen the white man run this country for yr's and have failed yr after yr and since u want to bring race in it i say hey give the blk man a chance and c if he becomes a fu**up just like the white guy's thats been in office.Now i dont care who really gets it because in the end the president does not really make all the decissions it rely's on the board members u vote in just as much.


ANd for gods sake u fools get over the color issue that shi* is old news and him being a muslim u guy's will find out that most the stuff u hear is not true and the media just blow shi* all out of whack cause thats what they get payed to do.

[TIGERJC]

^^^

why is race even getting brought into this discussion, you ppl are the reasons why this country is once again getting divided. Race has nothing to do with running this country

[blackshine007]

This was straight from Wikipedia:

A theme of Obama's 2004 Democratic National Convention keynote address, and the title of his 2006 book, The Audacity of Hope, was inspired by Rev. Jeremiah Wright, the senior pastor of Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ who retired in February 2008. In Chapter 6 of the book, titled "Faith," Obama writes that he "was not raised in a religious household." He describes his mother, raised by non-religious parents, as detached from religion, yet "in many ways the most spiritually awakened person that I have ever known." He describes his Kenyan father as "raised a Muslim," but a "confirmed atheist" by the time his parents met, and his Indonesian stepfather as "a man who saw religion as not particularly useful."

That's to clear up some of the lies that the media put out there. You people who rely on Hannity and Colmes/ Rush Limbaugh need to cut the tv/radio off and actually go to the original source for answers. Go to Obama's site. Go to Hilary's site. And even go to McCain's site. But don't listen to what BS the media is throwing out there because it's only designed to make you dislike one party more than the other. I like both McCain and Obama. Hilary worries me in a way being that her husband was the former president. He did good the first term but not the second. I hope she sticks to her word if she does get elected. But on the same token, when was the last time you were able to trust a politician? Maybe we have another Shirley Franklin. Maybe not. Only time will tell.

[tony]

LOL that actually made me laugh.

I just see Obama dividing the nation, not only because of him but because of the people. None of the candidates seem like they are going to make a positive "change". However I did like your post about how we need to change, meaning not having a Clinton or a Bush in the White House.

Strangely, I see your point. Obama is indirectly devisive because of his race.. if you put the same man in white skin then this wouldn't even be an issue but people feel the need to tread lightly when it comes to him. Its dissapointing but true, anyone who believes in Barack is lying if they don't see this.. whether he likes it or not in this campaign he forces the issue of race to come up since every criticism has to be run through the race card scanner before it can be considered legit.

With that said.. I still think he's the best option. Hillary wants to mandate healthcare and go after wages in doing so, McCain wants to stay in Iraq. I don't think Obama goes far enough on some issues but to me.. he's the best candidate.

[BB6dohcvtec]

Strangely, I see your point. Obama is indirectly devisive because of his race.. if you put the same man in white skin then this wouldn't even be an issue but people feel the need to tread lightly when it comes to him. Its dissapointing but true, anyone who believes in Barack is lying if they don't see this.. whether he likes it or not in this campaign he forces the issue of race to come up since every criticism has to be run through the race card scanner before it can be considered legit.

With that said.. I still think he's the best option. Hillary wants to mandate healthcare and go after wages in doing so, McCain wants to stay in Iraq. I don't think Obama goes far enough on some issues but to me.. he's the best candidate.

x2


p.s. shouldn't this be in the wallstreet section?

[bigdare23]

really explain? So since I do not support Obama, I am making the country more vulnerable to divide? No sir, you are the one with the "dumb attitude". Do you support George Bush, cause if not remember you are the that is making the country divide even more.



Soooo childish "He said I got a dumb attitude, so I got to tell say it back to him" :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:


I don't even know why I'm explaining why your attitude is dumb, but here it is. You said you wouldn't support him from the jump if he became President. For what reason? He's not the president yet, so he hasn't fail us in anyway way. I could see if he was ****ing up as president to give you a reason not to support him, but you're already writing him off before he even has a chance to prove himself. How would you like it if you went for a job interview and you get decline before you open your mouth, or before you got a chance to show you're talents. It would be BS. So I say before disowning someone as your president, let them **** up before you disown them. As, for Bush, when he became president, I had no reason to dislike, but when he started ****ing up in office thats when I started to dislike him. Unlike you, you don't even wanna give a person a chance. That's why your attitude is dumb as hell and people like you are bring down this country.

[KlassAct_EJ6]

If Obama is going to divide this country, who's going to unite it? Can anyone answer that? Because I really want to know who to support this November. :D This partisan bullcrap is beginning to be a little annoying on both sides.

[AirMax95]

Very interesting post with good posts throughout.

My response to the topic is simple: I want to vote for the best candidate possible. I do not feel that Obama will worsen this country, but induce change in the minds of the Americans who are afraid of change. It will be a scary at the beginning, but by the end of his term we will ALL appreciate the progress.

About his said LACK OF EXPERIENCE: Every President has lacked in some aspect of the "Perfect" President. That is what the cabinet and advisors are for. If Obama chooses a good surrounding group of individuals, he will prevail, and start this country on the road to success.

About RACE: He spoke very well, in the most positive light, to leave race out of his campaign. He was pushed into a seemingly defensive position by the media and his opponent. His last speech literally destroyed the hype. He stood up, grabbed his twig and berries, and reminded everyone that he is human. He did not back down, conform, nor avoid the topic; he spoke the truth, addressed this country's issues, and laid a plan. THAT TO ME SHOWS PRESIDENTAL QUALITIES.

Hiliary is not bad at all, but she is tainted with her husbands former role as President.

McCain is a good guy, but seems to lack something. I can't pinpoint it just yet, but I will post again when I figure it out, lol.

[ahmonrah]

though, simply due to genetics, he's of african descent..even more so than most of us that were born here( african americans who's history disappeared due to slavery), but that should not matter because obviously he's seemingly competent enough to go sweeping across the country, getting votes that even jesse jackson didnt get, back when he campaigned.

this man has serious contention for presidency, and I PERSONALLY FEEL, that makes those used to a particular face in office nervous.

on the subject of religion. once again, born into it. his biological father was african/muslim, and for whatever reason, baracks' mother(white) chose to marry an indonesian/muslim...... AND YES, later on in life, he did have a choice to choose another religion, but how many of us have strayed too far from what we were taught.....really?

for those objecting to obamas' run for prez, due to religious/racial beliefs, someone taught you to be that way...should'nt you consider rethinking that which you were taught?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

but really, what is it about this man that makes people nervous? that's the real question.

1) does the thought of military men/women answering to an african/caucasian man as commander in chief make people squirm?

if so, remember that general(ret.) colin powell (http://www.achievement.org/autodoc/printmember/pow0bio-1) was secretary of state, chairman of joint chiefs of staff and no matter who we are, civilian/military, a person of such stature commands instant respect, race irrelevant... so long as they WERE COMPETENT IN THEIR GIVEN POSITION.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

for civilians, does the thought of seeing this face potentially giving our "STATE OF THE UNION ADRESS" and being the figurehead of this current "sole remaining global superpower" called the UNITED STATES make you squirm? why?
are the reasons because of some unspoken code, or concrete and verifiable performance reasons?
what negative impact did he make, while an ILLINOIS senator that disqualifies him as potential prez?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

these are the 3 basic qualifications needed for someone to run for president:





be a natural-born citizen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural-born_citizen) of the United States
be at least thirty-five years old
have been resident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residency_%28domicile%29) in the United States for at least fourteen years
i've got to make a quick run.....i'll finish this thought in a few.....never mind i'll finish it now.


there are really no real reasons that i myself see, regardless of him being "black" and of muslim background, that should keep him away from what he's doing now.
what i wrote about up top was NOT to keep the stupid issue of RACE burning, but to question those that are soooo twisted up about obama running for president. but giving no concrete performance-related reasons.






and please, strike the "presidential experience" thought from debate/conversation, it makes as much sense as saying you can't die without having "death experience"........

[blackshine007]

^^ Nicely put.

I think those who can't open their minds to someone other than caucasion running for president must have some sort of racism in them. I've read good things about Bill Richardson. If he were to run for president, I'd vote for him in a heart beat. I wouldn't have voted for Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton is a joke. Obama in my opinion is the best man for the right time. But like I said if Obama don't make it, I'm still voting democrat this time around.

[ahmonrah]

precisely, this country, if looked at like i see the people i encounter when walking anywhere in atlanta, is a HUGE mixing bowl of people of COUNTLESS ethnic backgrounds.

this countries goverment should properly represent that. so long as those running for CITY, STATE AND GOVERMENT positions are cognizant of the fact they:

1) are compentent for what position they want
1a) represent the people that elect them

2) will perform the duties stated for the position, with the greatest ability they posess.

3) will strive to make a POSITIVE difference, for the people they represent, are also those that suffer or benefit from the decisions made while holding an office.


....AIGHT FOLKS, I'M OUT, GOTTA ERRAND TO DO ....

[1SICKLEX]

Even if you don't like Obama, its impossible for him to split the country because...


THE COUNTRY IS ALREADY SPLIT AND HASN'T BEEN THIS DIVIDED SINCE THE CIVIL WAR.

The last 2 elections in 2000 and 2004 were basically 50/50 with votes, Bush cheating his way in basically.

Sadly, this country is very split and if anything Obama can ONLY bring us back together again.

[Evil Goat]

he's an intelligent guy, ill admit that, and he's got his skin color going for him....


but how is he going to change anything? all i hear is im for change, we're for change, change change change......but he never says how....which is sort of an important part to the equation.

[japan4racing]

The last 2 elections in 2000 and 2004 were basically 50/50 with votes, Bush cheating his way in basically.



proof of said cheating?

[1SICKLEX]

he's an intelligent guy, ill admit that, and he's got his skin color going for him....


but how is he going to change anything? all i hear is im for change, we're for change, change change change......but he never says how....which is sort of an important part to the equation.
He has his skin color going for him? He is 1/2 white and 1/2 black. So what are you talking about?

[BB6dohcvtec]

he really doesn't have to explain the change right now....only thing he has to do is differentiate himself from hillary clinton on the issues that matter. If he gets the nominee then he will have some explaining to do on his "change" campaign.

[On_Her_Face]

Strangely, I see your point. Obama is indirectly devisive because of his race.. if you put the same man in white skin then this wouldn't even be an issue but people feel the need to tread lightly when it comes to him. Its dissapointing but true, anyone who believes in Barack is lying if they don't see this.. whether he likes it or not in this campaign he forces the issue of race to come up since every criticism has to be run through the race card scanner before it can be considered legit.

With that said.. I still think he's the best option. Hillary wants to mandate healthcare and go after wages in doing so, McCain wants to stay in Iraq. I don't think Obama goes far enough on some issues but to me.. he's the best candidate.


The only reason i AGREE with McCain is because we "broke" Iraq and need to fix it, just like if you go to Macy's you break a plate on display, you pay for (fix) it.

Soooo childish "He said I got a dumb attitude, so I got to tell say it back to him"



I don't even know why I'm explaining why your attitude is dumb, but here it is. You said you wouldn't support him from the jump if he became President. For what reason? He's not the president yet, so he hasn't fail us in anyway way. I could see if he was ****ing up as president to give you a reason not to support him, but you're already writing him off before he even has a chance to prove himself. How would you like it if you went for a job interview and you get decline before you open your mouth, or before you got a chance to show you're talents. It would be BS. So I say before disowning someone as your president, let them **** up before you disown them. As, for Bush, when he became president, I had no reason to dislike, but when he started ****ing up in office thats when I started to dislike him. Unlike you, you don't even wanna give a person a chance. That's why your attitude is dumb as hell and people like you are bring down this country.

Again with the personal attacks? Real class act there! I can say he will not be my president before he even gets to office if he does things I already do not like. Obama can and might be our greatest president but nobody knows that for sure, as for now, I'm assuming the worst.

In response to your comment about getting declined before you open your mouth or show your talent's that would be known as something called the real world, it happens daily.


He has his skin color going for him? He is 1/2 white and 1/2 black. So what are you talking about?

Meaning he can and will get votes for being half white or half black, sounds stupid but some people do vote that way.

[man]

How can someone that is not for what America stands for plus having a wife that is not, and has never been "proud" of this country bring this country closer together? She said she would only be proud if America elected a black president, I don't care what color the president is along as the person stands behind America. (IMO it is just a racist for electing a black president JUST because he is black, as it is to NOT elect a black president because he is black) But anyways, I think a lot of things are going to get torn apart if Obama becomes president...

Agreed, I wouldn't unnecessarily call it racist but definitely amplified by his race and religion, and I'm talking about a lot of the white people who support him. Not saying don't vote for him, but don't do it just so you can say "I'm not racist, I voted for Obama." Seems to be what's happening.

[d993s]

If Obama becomes president, he will be shot.
He doesn't offer anything more than your average google-er can come up with.

[d993s]

......but, it goes to show how many stupid people we have in America who are willing to vote for him while ignoring the fact that he is nothing more than another black guy who gives good speeches.

[imbored]

this post is alittle too extreme don't you think? lmao!

......but, it goes to show how many stupid people we have in America who are willing to vote for him while ignoring the fact that he is nothing more than another black guy who gives good speeches.

[blackshine007]

......but, it goes to show how many stupid people we have in America who are willing to vote for him while ignoring the fact that he is nothing more than another black guy who gives good speeches.
I guess you can say the same for every other guy who made the effort to stand up for what he/she believes and try or did make an attempt to make a change for our great nation. Ok, so we had a few mess ups. We've had a few great ones. . If you look at it, Bush senior gave a good speech, Clinton, Reagan, Nixon, Charter, and many of the others before him. Your comment wasn't very well thought out. The idiot card is in your hands and shows your racism for what it is. Look at life from a different and bigger perspective. Maybe you might see something you completely overlooked.

[The12lber]

How can someone that is not for what America stands for
Can you explain why he is not for what America stands for?

[The12lber]

Agreed, I wouldn't unnecessarily call it racist but definitely amplified by his race and religion, and I'm talking about a lot of the white people who support him. Not saying don't vote for him, but don't do it just so you can say "I'm not racist, I voted for Obama." Seems to be what's happening.

You know he's a Christian... which is the mainstream religion in this country... right... RIGHT?

[tony]

The only reason i AGREE with McCain is because we "broke" Iraq and need to fix it, just like if you go to Macy's you break a plate on display, you pay for (fix) it.



We broke Vietnam and Japan but that didnt mean stay there and allow our soldiers to be killed for years to come along with billions of dollars spent.

[tony]

he's an intelligent guy, ill admit that, and he's got his skin color going for him....


but how is he going to change anything? all i hear is im for change, we're for change, change change change......but he never says how....which is sort of an important part to the equation.

He states it in every time he says change.. again the media spins it as all he says is change and nothing more and those who do not take the initiative believe it.

He talks about changing partisan politics, he has sponsored legislation to create a barrier between lobbyists and lawmakers. Change in Iraq obviously, healthcare.. the list goes on and on.

[man]

You know he's a Christian... which is the mainstream religion in this country... right... RIGHT?

I know, that's not really how I meant it, I was slightly intoxicated last night. But people see this stuff in the media and it drives some away and some closer.

[On_Her_Face]

We broke Vietnam and Japan but that didnt mean stay there and allow our soldiers to be killed for years to come along with billions of dollars spent.

Yes but how many more men were loosing per day in vietnam? Also i believe we fixed Japan..

[The12lber]

I know, that's not really how I meant it, I was slightly intoxicated last night. But people see this stuff in the media and it drives some away and some closer.
A fair majority of the people I talk to about politics casually around campus and whatever think he is a muslim, and seem slightly put off by this. I think its funny how this demonstrates two things at once... the tremendous degree to which people of voting age are uninformed and how common deep seated xenophobia is.

[The12lber]

Yes but how many more men were loosing per day in vietnam? Also i believe we fixed Japan..
"Fix" Japan? It was never broken it in the first place. They had imperial ambitions and they paid the price of failure. That's it.

[The12lber]

We broke Vietnam and Japan but that didnt mean stay there and allow our soldiers to be killed for years to come along with billions of dollars spent.

Just for the record sir, isn't that exactly what we did in Vietnam?

[On_Her_Face]

"Fix" Japan? It was never broken it in the first place. They had imperial ambitions and they paid the price of failure. That's it.

Atomic Bomb = BROKEN

[On_Her_Face]

Just for the record sir, isn't that exactly what we did in Vietnam?

I believe Tony is making a relation to the war in Iraq, that we need to get out of Iraq and stop wasting money. (not staying like we did in Vietnam for so long)

[Motivation]

If we pull out all of the troups in Iraq at once, the soldiers that have lost their life in the war (for what they believe in, THEY joined for a reason, THEY knew what was going on, THEY thought it was worth risking there lives for), what did they die for? It would all be in vain imo... I agree, the war has turned into something different that the reason it started... But if we pull out now we could be making things worse. I know it's a saying every one has seen but, "Fight them there, or fight them here."
But everyone's view is going to be different. That's what makes this world.

[Motivation]

Can you explain why he is not for what America stands for?

I was referring to the flag and saluting it. The flag is not supposed to just be looked at as some colorful material hanging from a pole, window, a sticker on a car, etc. We should be able to be proud when we see the flag flying...

[BanginJimmy]

We broke Vietnam and Japan but that didnt mean stay there and allow our soldiers to be killed for years to come along with billions of dollars spent.


we still have bases in Japan and we spent hundreds of billions of dollars there in the late 40's thorugh the end of the 50's. In todays terms that would have been well into the trillions.

Vietnam and Iraq have several things in common.
1. Interference from an enemy of the US. In Viet-Nam it was the Chinese and Russians. In Iraq it is the Iranians and foreign fighters.

2. Politics getting in the way of the military. Anytime you get politicians involved in military operations you only get bad things happening. Iraq is a glaring example of that. If the military was able to do their job without any political intervention we could get this job done.

3. Media embedded with military units. It became popular in Viet-Nam with the body counts and such, and it is happening again now. This only works to get in the way of the military units and to vilinize them.

[The12lber]

we still have bases in Japan and we spent hundreds of billions of dollars there in the late 40's thorugh the end of the 50's. In todays terms that would have been well into the trillions.

We didn't spend that money fighting a hard earned battle with Japanese nationalists fighting our occupation. We spent those dollars in Japan creating military infrastructure because the ability to stage our military assetts there was extremely valuable at the time. I'll let you be a big boy and figure out why!

Vietnam and Iraq have several things in common.
1. Interference from an enemy of the US. In Viet-Nam it was the Chinese and Russians. In Iraq it is the Iranians and foreign fighters.

2. Politics getting in the way of the military. Anytime you get politicians involved in military operations you only get bad things happening. Iraq is a glaring example of that. If the military was able to do their job without any political intervention we could get this job done.

Those pesky fools, always asking tough questions when we choose to sacrifice thosuands of American lives, billions (going on trillions) of American dollars and further destabilizing an already unstable region. We should let it go regardless of what it is or isn't accomplishing and who's lives it is wasting . Like in Vietnam... we were fighting to prevent the domino effect from taking hold... and we won and it didn't. Oh, wait, we lost and it didn't? And Communist Vietnam hasn't started anything with anyone since? Damn, tough break America.

3. Media embedded with military units. It became popular in Viet-Nam with the body counts and such, and it is happening again now. This only works to get in the way of the military units and to vilinize them.

Yes, because you know, the military is always faultless and we should always assume so. The My Lai massacre and that time those soldiers gang raped the teenage Iraqi girl and then killed her whole family, reporting on stuff like that definitely unjustly portrays those soldiers as villains. And we shouldn't know about it.

u r smrt

[The12lber]

I believe Tony is making a relation to the war in Iraq, that we need to get out of Iraq and stop wasting money. (not staying like we did in Vietnam for so long)
He was making a relation, just the other way around.

[The12lber]

If we pull out all of the troups in Iraq at once, the soldiers that have lost their life in the war (for what they believe in, THEY joined for a reason, THEY knew what was going on, THEY thought it was worth risking there lives for), what did they die for? It would all be in vain imo... I agree, the war has turned into something different that the reason it started... But if we pull out now we could be making things worse. I know it's a saying every one has seen but, "Fight them there, or fight them here."
But everyone's view is going to be different. That's what makes this world.

The rational that they would die in vain if more Americans didn't throw away their lives too is total bull****.

Its not "fight them there, or fight them here." THERE WERE NO ISLAMIC EXTREMIST TERRORIST GROUPS IN IRAQ BEFORE THE INVASION. Saddam hated them and they hated Saddam. Unfortunately for them, Saddam has the upper hand in this mutually unfriendly relationship as Saddam had an iron grip on all the country but the north. "Fighting them over there" only created another area for them to operate and another way to gain more recruits.

Another stunning revelation, the vast majority of violence in Iraq... not the work of Islamic extremists. I know the media likes to throw around the A.Q. name all the time. The actual activity level of Al-Qaeda? Army intelligence estimates they account for around 3-5% of the violence in Iraq as of late last year. Most of the violence is sectarian violence or the work of ordinary Iraqis who just want us out.

[The12lber]

Atomic Bomb = BROKEN

Sorry, but you are wrong. All the atomic bombs did is this - destroy a lot of building and lives. It didn't destroy anything else. Not the government and not stability within the nation. There wasn't a guerilla war against our occupying troops or sectarian violence within the nation. There was nothing about the situation "broken" in the same sense Iraq is broke or any sense at all really. The only thing broken in Japan in 1946 was the peopple's pride. If you're going to talk about history at least get the basics down.

[On_Her_Face]

Sorry, but you are wrong. All the atomic bombs did is this - destroy a lot of building and lives. It didn't destroy anything else. Not the government and not stability within the nation. There wasn't a guerilla war against our occupying troops or sectarian violence within the nation. There was nothing about the situation "broken" in the same sense Iraq is broke or any sense at all really. The only thing broken in Japan in 1946 was the peopple's pride. If you're going to talk about history at least get the basics down.

We still payed for the things we "broke"

that's basically what i meant :D

[The12lber]

We still payed for the things we "broke"

that's basically what i meant :D

I'm unsure of the specifics but I'm reasonably certain we didn't pay for any of the damage we did with the atomic bombs because that would have set the precedent that we should rebuild everything destroyed in the firebombing campaign etc.

[tony]

Just for the record sir, isn't that exactly what we did in Vietnam?

Do you really believe we left Vietnam because of victory? :thinking:

[tony]

Sorry, but you are wrong. All the atomic bombs did is this - destroy a lot of building and lives. It didn't destroy anything else. Not the government and not stability within the nation. There wasn't a guerilla war against our occupying troops or sectarian violence within the nation. There was nothing about the situation "broken" in the same sense Iraq is broke or any sense at all really. The only thing broken in Japan in 1946 was the peopple's pride. If you're going to talk about history at least get the basics down.

WTF??? 200,000 citizens isn't broken? What.. 3,000 people died in the world trade center bombings and we dropped 2 NUCLEAR BOMBS on men, women and children not to mention the environmental implications of nuclear weapons. You've got to be ****ing kidding me.. I'm sorry, and not that my opinion matters but you just lost all credibility on this subject.


we still have bases in Japan and we spent hundreds of billions of dollars there in the late 40's thorugh the end of the 50's. In todays terms that would have been well into the trillions.

Vietnam and Iraq have several things in common.
1. Interference from an enemy of the US. In Viet-Nam it was the Chinese and Russians. In Iraq it is the Iranians and foreign fighters.

2. Politics getting in the way of the military. Anytime you get politicians involved in military operations you only get bad things happening. Iraq is a glaring example of that. If the military was able to do their job without any political intervention we could get this job done.

3. Media embedded with military units. It became popular in Viet-Nam with the body counts and such, and it is happening again now. This only works to get in the way of the military units and to vilinize them.


1. A good portion of Iranians actually adore American Culture and completely respect it. The current administration would like you to believe Iran hates us when that is far from the truth, as I said in the other thread Iranian soldiers fought alongside ours in Afghanistan after 9/11..

2. The military is run by the government and the president is Commander and Chief.. kind of hard to take the politics out of that.

3. I agree here..soldiers should be able to do their job without worry of the media.


If we pull out all of the troups in Iraq at once, the soldiers that have lost their life in the war (for what they believe in, THEY joined for a reason, THEY knew what was going on, THEY thought it was worth risking there lives for), what did they die for? It would all be in vain imo... I agree, the war has turned into something different that the reason it started... But if we pull out now we could be making things worse. I know it's a saying every one has seen but, "Fight them there, or fight them here."
But everyone's view is going to be different. That's what makes this world.

The war was in vain from the start. You are fighting a political war against a religious army. This doesn't end with just a few battles, something of this magnitude requires diplomacy not military force.

[MistaCee]

Do you really believe we left Vietnam because of victory? :thinking:

My thought exactly

[On_Her_Face]

I'm unsure of the specifics but I'm reasonably certain we didn't pay for any of the damage we did with the atomic bombs because that would have set the precedent that we should rebuild everything destroyed in the firebombing campaign etc.

We paid then war reparations afterwards, not just for the atomic bomb

[On_Her_Face]

Anyway this thread is getting way of topic, overall I think that we can all mostly agree that IF Obama becomes president then is a good chance that Obama can divide the nation even more. Not just because of his actions as President, but because of the racist people and the media.

[The12lber]

Do you really believe we left Vietnam because of victory? :thinking:
I'm not really sure how you got that out of ANYTHING I said.

You said that we didn't stay in Vietnam and waste of billions of dollars and thousands of lives... and I said isn't that exactly what we did?

[The12lber]

We paid then war reparations afterwards, not just for the atomic bomb

You're wrong, I don't know where you're getting this from at all. They were the ones who shelled out. I'm not sure if you remember your history but Japan started the war with China/Australia/The U.S. etc, not the other way around. Typically, after a war you don't say "well, you attacked us first but we're sorry you lost, here's some money to fix your place up". Substantial aid was given to European countries post world war II for fear of communism taking hold, but nothing was given to Japan.

"According to the Treaty of Peace with Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Peace_with_Japan) and the bilateral agreements, Japan agreed to pay around 1 trillion and 30 billion yen. For countries that renounced any reparations from Japan, it agreed to pay indemnity and/or grants in accordance with bilateral agreements."

[tony]

I'm not really sure how you got that out of ANYTHING I said.

You said that we didn't stay in Vietnam and waste of billions of dollars and thousands of lives... and I said isn't that exactly what we did?

Apology given, I took it out of context. One would assume that we learned from Vietnam BUT vietnam didn't have oil fields like Iraq.

If anyone remembers when the war was proposed that the funding would come from the revenue of Iraq oil.. now 5 years later the U.S has paid $400 Billion while our economy has crumbled.

[The12lber]

WTF??? 200,000 citizens isn't broken? What.. 3,000 people died in the world trade center bombings and we dropped 2 NUCLEAR BOMBS on men, women and children not to mention the environmental implications of nuclear weapons. You've got to be ****ing kidding me.. I'm sorry, and not that my opinion matters but you just lost all credibility on this subject.
.
Sorry, I didn't realize I lost credibility when I don't feel that a country which had two low yield atomic bombs dropped on it was "broken" in the same sense a country with no effective government subject to foreign occupation which frequently commits highly visible acts of heinous violence/egregious violations of human rights and sectarian violence is "broken".

[The12lber]

Apology given, I took it out of context. One would assume that we learned from Vietnam BUT vietnam didn't have oil fields like Iraq.

If anyone remembers when the war was proposed that the funding would come from the revenue of Iraq oil.. now 5 years later the U.S has paid $400 Billion while our economy has crumbled.
Its actually well over 500 billion dollars now. The thing is, that's all borrowed money. When you borrow that much money, it increases the supply of the dollar and is one of the identifiable causes of the tremendous down turn in the value of the dollar in terms of currency exchange.

[tony]

Sorry, I didn't realize I lost credibility when I don't feel that a country which had two low yield atomic bombs dropped on it was "broken" in the same sense a country with no effective government subject to foreign occupation which frequently commits highly visible acts of heinous violence/egregious violations of human rights and sectarian violence is "broken".

So.. I guess by that standard every country who does not maintain a certain standard deserves a nuclear bomb to be dropped on them. All while we make the case that certain countries do not need nuclear technology because of how they may act with it, interesting.

Some of you guys are acting like this is a video game.. like the loss of life is just a number. These are real people. ONE loss of life is a big deal especially when its conflict that could have been avoided. So to bring this full circle, again this is why I support Obama. He gets ridiculed for talking diplomacy rather than war but diplomacy saves lives.. as did Reagan with Russia.

[The12lber]

So.. I guess by that standard every country who does not maintain a certain standard deserves a nuclear bomb to be dropped on them. All while we make the case that certain countries do not need nuclear technology because of how they may act with it, interesting.

Some of you guys are acting like this is a video game.. like the loss of life is just a number. These are real people. ONE loss of life is a big deal especially when its conflict that could have been avoided. So to bring this full circle, again this is why I support Obama. He gets ridiculed for talking diplomacy rather than war but diplomacy saves lives.. as did Reagan with Russia.

They are real people, but they're not the same situation and you can't compare the occupation of Japan to the occupation of Iraq. Unless you comapre them and come to the conclusion afterwards that ITS TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

Also, I wasn't making a statement about who deserves to be nuked, who deserves to be able to nuke other people, etc etc. I was just saying the two situations aren't the same. You're pulling all this other stuff out of nowhere. Quit being so dramatic.

[man]

A fair majority of the people I talk to about politics casually around campus and whatever think he is a muslim, and seem slightly put off by this. I think its funny how this demonstrates two things at once... the tremendous degree to which people of voting age are uninformed and how common deep seated xenophobia is.

Agreed, just shows how manipulative politicians and the media can be.

[Annik5k]

BLACK AND WHITE thats how this argument is thats how this country is thats how it will always be unfortunaly.

i dont see race i dont see a foul word i dont see things that are just that THINGS being hurtful but just stupid **** that 1 person or another will eventually be offended by.

go find a mexican or asian to run... i bet the same bull**** gets pulled up

(UHHH UHH ASIANS EAT DOGS THATS WRONG! :B
(UHHH UHH MY LAWN GETS MOWED BY A MEXICAN HOW COULD HE RUN FOR PRESIDENT! :B

I hate being a white male because we take the most **** out of anyone BECAUSE the country picks the stupidest mother****er to run this god forsaken time bomb we call America...

I believe the teens of today are gettign better on race but god damn this countrys full of some ignorant people why just the other day i pulled up to a car with two white girls and 2 white guys singing to some rapper talkin about being the wrong color in his hood gets you shot. WHAT THE ****!

I say We bomb the trailer parks Bomb the ghetto Bomb the churches and start the **** over leaving whats left to fend for itself.. im moving to the UK ASA i have my funds together because im tired of this stupid bull****...

**** THIS COUNTRY FOR ITS RACIST RELIGIOUS AND POLITICAL VIEWS!

TO QUOTE M.L.K. "F*C* YALL NIGG*S IM MOVIN TO CANADA" -boondocks

[Annik5k]

And lemme guess IM WRONG IM JUST SO WRONG FOR BEING THE ONE WHO STOOD UP IN FRONT OF A SCHOOL FILLED WITH REDNECKS AND SAID **** YOUR GOD **** YOUR COUNTRY AND **** YOUR RACIST ASS VIEWS....

(CORRECTION) because a black kid died @ our school and they were all about "hell ya 1 less N*****"

and yeah my ass was wooped but even if a handfull of ppl agreed with me it was worth it...

[Motivation]

And lemme guess IM WRONG IM JUST SO WRONG FOR BEING THE ONE WHO STOOD UP IN FRONT OF A SCHOOL FILLED WITH REDNECKS AND SAID **** YOUR GOD **** YOUR COUNTRY AND **** YOUR RACIST ASS VIEWS....

and yeah my ass was wooped but even if a handfull of ppl agreed with me it was worth it...


your ass deserved to get beat... oh by the way, isn't what you just said stereotypical? Not all rednecks are racist. and to tell someone to "**** YOUR GOD **** YOUR COUNTRY AND **** YOUR RACIST ASS VIEWS...." I think you have no credit to talk about anyone else's views... You seem real open minded.

[Annik5k]

im very open mided thank you but thers a hand full of races and 2000000000 religions. to stand up for what i believe makes me american... THATS HOW THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ppl with different views escaping the conformaty.

Thats the little part history class in the good ole bible belt leaves out. because why would they want someone to believe any different.

ignorace is having two american flags and a support our troups magnet on a ford explorer.

or putting a bumper sticker on your SUV saying JESUS IS GOD

[Annik5k]

"WE ARE THE ALL SINGING ALL DANCING CRAP OF THE WORLD"

[Motivation]

im very open mided thank you but thers a hand full of races and 2000000000 religions. to stand up for what i believe makes me american... THATS HOW THIS COUNTRY WAS FOUNDED ppl with different views escaping the conformaty.

Thats the little part history class in the good ole bible belt leaves out. because why would they want someone to believe any different.

ignorace is having two american flags and a support our troups magnet on a ford explorer.

or putting a bumper sticker on your SUV saying JESUS IS GOD

How does this define ignorance? The two American flags and a support our troops magnet, is in fact that. support... You might not support the war but you should still support the troops. Just to go along with you, what were the first beliefs that caused ppl to found this country? Was it not religion? You saying ignorance is a bumper sticker saying JESUS IS GOD, is the same as you saying there is no God. Well I believe in God, and the Bible called you a fool for not believing. It proves itself true again. :goodjob: Yes you can stand up for what you believe in. Does this make you American? No, you previously stated that you wanted to leave this country, so do America a favor and GTFO...

[On_Her_Face]

You're wrong, I don't know where you're getting this from at all. They were the ones who shelled out. I'm not sure if you remember your history but Japan started the war with China/Australia/The U.S. etc, not the other way around. Typically, after a war you don't say "well, you attacked us first but we're sorry you lost, here's some money to fix your place up". Substantial aid was given to European countries post world war II for fear of communism taking hold, but nothing was given to Japan.

"According to the Treaty of Peace with Japan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Peace_with_Japan) and the bilateral agreements, Japan agreed to pay around 1 trillion and 30 billion yen. For countries that renounced any reparations from Japan, it agreed to pay indemnity and/or grants in accordance with bilateral agreements."

Hmmm, guess I am wrong, I thought that it did not make sense, but I could of sworn I was told that just last semister, thanks for clearing that up though :goodjob: +1

[Annik5k]

buy my plane ticket and send me away!

spoken like an american "EVERYTHINGS EASY IN THIS COUNTRY WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO WORK HARD?"

THE ONLY PEOPLE I SEE THAT ARE RELIGIOUS 90% of the time WERE raised racist or HAVE HAD EVERYTHING HANDED TO THEM ON A SILVER ****ING PLATTER.
(and thus for when they prey that night for that biig job interview daddys helping them with they get it OH and it wasnt the money and ivey league school your money paid for it was GOD, God just picked you out of the world and said youll get the job.)

i spent 2 years on the streets ON MY OWN WITH NO ONE TO HAVE MY BACK! I TRYED GOD YEAH BIG HELP THAT WAS!

I have faith in 4 things.
myself
My Very Close friends (5) & family (2)
and the end of the word

[Annik5k]

not once have i said your wrong.. im just sayong this country is so blind to its own downfall

[Annik5k]

not once have i said your wrong.. im just saying this country is so blind to its own downfall

[The12lber]

Hmmm, guess I am wrong, I thought that it did not make sense, but I could of sworn I was told that just last semister, thanks for clearing that up though :goodjob: +1

Yeah, professors can frequently be wrong to varying degrees. My current Econ teacher's Pakistani accent is too thick for any of his colleagues to have noticed by now that he's totally incompetent.

[japan4racing]

this thread is circleing the drain

[ahmonrah]

YAY!! I'VE GOT THE 100TH POST!!!!

mods: CLOSE THE THREAD! ITS POINTERLESS!

[KPowerEP3]

I try to avoid these discussions, but I'm going to throw my nickel's worth in here. One night, right before super Tuesday, I was having a conversation with a VERY well educated driver who happens to be one of my regulars. [He's black, not that it matters, but this seems somewhat relevant here.] The conclusion we came to was this: If Barack Obama does succeed in his campaign and get elected, he won't be around long enough to effect things one way or another.

I know, I know, you're thinking 'WTFzorz he gotz 4 yaers!11!!'.

True, however, consider the last time we had a young, charismatic, very strong democrat president? 1961.

Now, here's where you 'believe what you see' types start yelling about conspiracy theories. I only ask that you do some research before calling me a nut job. Forward to the point, however. I honestly feel that IF Obama gets elected, it will be another Kennedy. Originally, I hadn't thought of this, but the similarities between the two were pointed out to me, like I said, by a very well educated, VERY liberal man.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want the guy to get killed. I'm just making the statement that there are policies and procedures in place that many of us would be irate about if we knew of their existence. Honestly, I want you to truly think about every president we've had that tried to make a significant change in our country's system. Magically, their protection was no good and they were assassinated, to be replaced by their much more centrist VP. Both times that we've had a president assassinated, they either had changed or were trying to change things in a way that did or could've divided the country.

Lincoln --> JFK -->Obama?

No, I'm not purposely leaving out the failed attempt on Reagan, either, but I really do believe that was just some crazy guy trying to kill a president that HE didn't like. The other two, I believe otherwise about.

[The12lber]

Not likely, security procedures have become more complex/thorough and the man power protecting the president has become better equipped, better trained and more numerous as well since the 1860s and the 1960s.

Also, Lincoln and Reagan weren't young. The dude who tried to assassinate Reagan wasn't really politically motivated, he just had a boner for Jodie Foster.

[IDCoconut]

Also, Lincoln and Reagan weren't young. The dude who tried to assassinate Reagan wasn't really politically motivated, he just had a boner for Jodie Foster.


He pointed that out in his post. But to make a point, no matter your security, if someone wants to kill you, they will kill you.

[Spektrewing386]

well they are going to have to get through about 40 of these
http://www.walkblackforest.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/US%20Secret%20Service%20CAT%20officer.jpg

[DinanM3atl]

My opinion is that even if obama did not make it a race issue the sheeple of america will still vote because he is black. Just like woman are voting for clinton because she is a woman. Many of those people do not even know what any of the candidates stand for but they are just blindly voting.

[AirMax95]

......but, it goes to show how many stupid people we have in America who are willing to vote for him while ignoring the fact that he is nothing more than another black guy who gives good speeches.

Wow...... :thinking:

So, um....how about the "just another white president"? Sounds dumb huh?

Why can't he just be another GUY that gives good speeches (better than a whole lot of people), with great content, and hope for the country.

If nothing else he makes you feel good. I pray that you are not racist/prejudice. We really do not need anymore of those around here. :(

[AirMax95]

My opinion is that even if obama did not make it a race issue the sheeple of america will still vote because he is black. Just like woman are voting for clinton because she is a woman. Many of those people do not even know what any of the candidates stand for but they are just blindly voting.

If he was purple, spoke the same, carried himself the same........you get the point.

Hilary's lying ass needs to be dropped like a bad habit. Its one thing to lose, but another to cheat and STILL lose......freaking loser ass loser :tongue1:

[TIGERJC]

My opinion is that even if obama did not make it a race issue the sheeple of america will still vote because he is black. Just like woman are voting for clinton because she is a woman. Many of those people do not even know what any of the candidates stand for but they are just blindly voting.
I guess you can say the same thing about macain too. Senior citizens are going to vote for him because he is on his last leg just like all of them. I would be more worried about Seniors, they actually come out in vote

[01CDMLUDER]

don't you think it's funny that the only "dirt" they have on obama is something that his PREACHER said! or am i the only one that finds this amusing?

[IDCoconut]

well they are going to have to get through about 40 of these
http://www.walkblackforest.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/US%20Secret%20Service%20CAT%20officer.jpg

Yes because he's got 40 of those on his ass day in and day out. LOL, get real.

[BanginJimmy]

don't you think it's funny that the only "dirt" they have on obama is something that his PREACHER said! or am i the only one that finds this amusing?

The problem is a little more complex about that. Its not so much what he preacher said, its what his preacher said and he didnt take any action which means he agrees with it. I find it very hard to believe that Wright only made these "sermons" when Obama wasnt there. That brings a question to Obama's objectivity, and reasoning.

[tony]

The problem is a little more complex about that. Its not so much what he preacher said, its what his preacher said and he didnt take any action which means he agrees with it. I find it very hard to believe that Wright only made these "sermons" when Obama wasnt there. That brings a question to Obama's objectivity, and reasoning.

What exactly did the preacher say that you disagreed with?

[DinanM3atl]

What exactly did the preacher say that you disagreed with?

White people created aids to give to black people?

I could continue if you like :)

[blaknoize]

Ah stop complainin, if the man wins he wins, if he doesnt he doesnt. Its time for a change regardless and I quite frankly think that he will make a difference. Not a BIG difference, but I have faith in him. We need no more Clintons, we need no more Republicans, let the man with a dream put that dream into action.

[blaknoize]

White people created aids to give to black people?

I could continue if you like :)No not just white people, but them GAY FAGGED UP GAYED UP white Californians did :D

[BanginJimmy]

What exactly did the preacher say that you disagreed with?


how long of a list do you want?



USKKK of A

The govt created Aids to kill black people

God damn America

The govt gives blacks drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes 3 strike laws

Govt sponsored state terrorism against Palestine and black south africans


Shall I continue?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M-kD0QdRJk&feature=related

[MistaCee]

Ah stop complainin, if the man wins he wins, if he doesnt he doesnt. Its time for a change regardless and I quite frankly think that he will make a difference. Not a BIG difference, but I have faith in him. We need no more Clintons, we need no more Republicans, let the man with a dream put that dream into action.

x2

[MistaCee]

how long of a list do you want?



USKKK of A

The govt created Aids to kill black people

God damn America

The govt gives blacks drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes 3 strike laws

Govt sponsored state terrorism against Palestine and black south africans


Shall I continue?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M-kD0QdRJk&feature=related

Yes the pastor is very controversial but what does he have to do with Barack?

[BanginJimmy]

If the pastor was saying these things for 20 years they must be his beliefs also or he would have left the church and never returned. He didnt leave though so he either agree's with those beliefs, or he doesnt have the moral strength to Leave. Either way you look at it he doesnt have the qualities to be president.

[SL65AMG]

The American Revolution 2 coming to the streets near you



maybe he will tear us apart.... but if he does it will be the people who are stupid as **** and the people who actually have a brain....

[Spektrewing386]

i heard that he wasnt a religious man. so its not like he came every sunday and sat front and center. how often did he go? did he say?

[KPowerEP3]

The point I was trying to make was far from an individual assassinating him. Also, Reading comprehension>whomever said 'Reagan and Lincoln weren't young'. I never said they were, I said
True, however, consider the last time we had a young, charismatic, very strong democrat president? 1961.

Meh, forget it. Just reread my original post, maybe then you'll get what I was going for.

[japan4racing]

how many of you have heard the whole sermon? and of those of you that cared enough to listen to the whole thing and form your own opinion, how many took it as the babbling of a psycho and how many took it as a rehash of what edward peck said?

i personally do not htink it was a quote but i do think that he was referring to the words of peck and added his own flare to it...i cannot find any tape of the peck interveiw but im sure its out there. what i have heard from peck shows me that he has similar veiws as mr. wright.

you decide:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=QOdlnzkeoyQ

and dont watch 1 minute of it and form your opinion. watch the whole 10 minutes. if you cant sit down and watch the whole video then you obviously dont care enough to be in this debate we are having.

note: im not sayin the guy is right or wrong and i am also of the belief that religion should have nothing to do with who i vote for. im sure he does not agree with the way i run my life also. i have my opinions and everyone else has theirs.

[BanginJimmy]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RvMbeVQj6Lw&feature=related

or you can watch this one where he blames the US govt for blacks being in lower paying jobs today by saying that they barr them from higher education. The last couple of minutes is the important part. Before that its pretty pointless rambling.

face it, Wright is a racist and uses the uneducated to spread his hate.

[tony]

White people created aids to give to black people?

I could continue if you like :)


Please do show me the clip or transcript of this.. I'm very interested

[MistaCee]

Its sad how the media can turn nothing into something its not.

[On_Her_Face]

Now that somebody brought Obama being assassinated, I could see some idoit doing that, hopefully that will not happen. Even if Obama is doing bad in his presidency, this will bring more problems to the states.

[{X}Echo419]

this is pointless. there's not way in hell Obama is going to win the election. sry, that's just the way it is.

[BanginJimmy]

Please do show me the clip or transcript of this.. I'm very interested

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZ38N8OUg3Q&feature=related

check out 1:30 into it.

[MistaCee]

this is pointless. there's not way in hell Obama is going to win the election. sry, that's just the way it is.

How you figure miss cleo

[blackshine007]

Now that somebody brought Obama being assassinated, I could see some idoit doing that, hopefully that will not happen. Even if Obama is doing bad in his presidency, this will bring more problems to the states.
If they haven't assinated Bush yet, what are the odds that they will get Obama?

[The12lber]

The point I was trying to make was far from an individual assassinating him. Also, Reading comprehension>whomever said 'Reagan and Lincoln weren't young'. I never said they were, I said

Meh, forget it. Just reread my original post, maybe then you'll get what I was going for.

That was the impression I got since Lincoln and Reagan were the only other assassination/attempt mentioned when there have been others.

[The12lber]

He pointed that out in his post. But to make a point, no matter your security, if someone wants to kill you, they will kill you.

I think you're assuming a lot about <x> person with this statement. If someone got their hands on a semi-modern MANPADS they could probably do it, but that wouldn't be easy by any means - from start to finish.

[KPowerEP3]

I think you're assuming a lot about <x> person with this statement. If someone got their hands on a semi-modern MANPADS they could probably do it, but that wouldn't be easy by any means - from start to finish.


My point was actually leaning towards JFK and Lincoln. The point I was trying to make was that, with the exception of the Reagan attempt, that these were NOT just individuals. My point was the two successful ones being implemented BY the government itself. I know, you're rolling your eyes. However, whether you'd like to acknowledge it or not, there are some deep, dark, dirty secrets within the high levels of our government, and I honestly believe that if Obama got into office and shook things up too much, we'd see it again. Our government doesn't like extreme conservatives or liberals. The like moderates. Why do you think none of the hard line independent parties ever have a shot in hell of winning an election?

[The12lber]

My point was actually leaning towards JFK and Lincoln. The point I was trying to make was that, with the exception of the Reagan attempt, that these were NOT just individuals. My point was the two successful ones being implemented BY the government itself. I know, you're rolling your eyes. However, whether you'd like to acknowledge it or not, there are some deep, dark, dirty secrets within the high levels of our government, and I honestly believe that if Obama got into office and shook things up too much, we'd see it again. Our government doesn't like extreme conservatives or liberals. The like moderates. Why do you think none of the hard line independent parties ever have a shot in hell of winning an election?
Aside from the fact that you're skewing and oversimplifying the political reality of our government tremendously- John Wilkes Booth just didn't like the outcome of the Civil War or Lincoln, Lee Harvey Oswald was just a communist/generally confused young man and Jack Ruby was just an emotional trainwreck with a gun. The government has tons of dirty not-so-secrets, but successfully implemented presidential assassinations aren't amongst them.

As a side note, extreme conservatives have been pooping in the white house for 7 years now, where have you been?

[On_Her_Face]

If they haven't assinated Bush yet, what are the odds that they will get Obama?

Racist white people, when have you seen a person of another race try to assassinate one of our presidents?

[blaknoize]

If the pastor was saying these things for 20 years they must be his beliefs also or he would have left the church and never returned. He didnt leave though so he either agree's with those beliefs, or he doesnt have the moral strength to Leave. Either way you look at it he doesnt have the qualities to be president.That still doesnt prove anything about Barack himself and HIS personal beliefs. I dont like or listen to my pastor all the time, thats why its takin me forever to become "holy." That USKKK of A comment. He can say that anyway, he was born during those times, u werent and neither was I. Maybe he's flustered. Pastors are people to.

[Big J]

I'd be perfectly content with an atheist being in office. Any logical person could argue that religious beliefs fit the criteria of being delusional. But that's another can of worms all together.

[On_Her_Face]

I'd be perfectly content with an atheist being in office. Any logical person could argue that religious beliefs fit the criteria of being delusional. But that's another can of worms all together.

i'm christian and that would actually be good, this way we know church and state lines would not be crossed. Meaning that he wouldn't put his religious beliefs in the way of important decision making

[The12lber]

i'm christian and that would actually be good, this way we know church and state lines would not be crossed. Meaning that he wouldn't put his religious beliefs in the way of important decision making
Its unfortunate that the whole religion thing permeates so much. I really like Mike Huckabee but all of his rhetoric about amending the constitution to god's standards? There's a reason the word "god" doesn't appear once in the constitution. Major turn off, Mike Huckabee. The fact that he "understands BBQ" does a lot but doesn't quite make up for it.

[{X}Echo419]

How you figure miss cleo
honestly I don't feel like discussing it right now. I thought the reasons were obvious. maybe I will later but not now, long day @ the office.

a side note I would be willing to be anyone just about anything that Obama will NOT win the Presidency.

[The12lber]

honestly I don't feel like discussing it right now. I thought the reasons were obvious. maybe I will later but not now, long day @ the office.

a side note I would be willing to be anyone just about anything that Obama will NOT win the Presidency.
Unless McCain decides that continued U.S. presence in Iraq is a bad idea or every insurgent in Iraq joins the Care Bear Klub overnight, Obama is in a pretty good position to win.

And yes, I am writing Hillary off.

[LQQKITZME]

Unless McCain decides that continued U.S. presence in Iraq is a bad idea or every insurgent in Iraq joins the Care Bear Klub overnight, Obama is in a pretty good position to win.

And yes, I am writing Hillary off.


I am trying to get a job over seas for 4 years...

[Spektrewing386]

a side note I would be willing to bet anyone just about anything that Obama will NOT win the Presidency.



are you willing to actually bet? or are you just saying that?


"every insurgent in Iraq joins the Care Bear Klub overnight":

They can even carry the My Little Pony M-4
http://www.craphound.com/images/mylittlebrbine.jpg

Or if they are looking for a larger round:
the Hello Kitty AK-47, you can be the cutiest little insurgent on the west said of Haditha.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2231/1620316584_fd417c16ce_o.jpg

[{X}Echo419]

I mean it

[Spektrewing386]

tempting, we will have to see who wins the nomination before discussing bets any further.

[BanginJimmy]

That still doesnt prove anything about Barack himself and HIS personal beliefs. I dont like or listen to my pastor all the time, thats why its takin me forever to become "holy." That USKKK of A comment. He can say that anyway, he was born during those times, u werent and neither was I. Maybe he's flustered. Pastors are people to.

not having the moral strength or the judgement to leave does say alot about Obama. Even if he did believe what that racist pastor was saying his lack of judgement is even more obvious. He has been there since he went to DC and he would be an idiot if he didnt think that Wright's rants wouldnt make it into the press. That is another major knock on his judgement.


Yes Wright was born during those times. I have far less patience for those that know that side of racism spouting off there own. He should know better than me or you how damaging it can be.

[sshonda2004]

lol yeah your right, but the fact that a minority is in a position to become president is a signal that change is upon the country, hopefully for the better.
I highly doubt he can **** up the country or divide it anymore than it already is.

[Dr.G35]

i will also bet that obama will not win. the reason i like mccain is because he's a realist. Honestly, who believes that we can pull out of iraq in six months, one year, or even ten years? Yes, it is a sad reality that we have lost over 4000 soldiers, but media makes it seem like this is ****ing huge. We have lost fewer soldiers in this war than any other war.
Has anyone heard Obama disagree with his ex-pastor? hmmmmm.

[blackshine007]

i will also bet that obama will not win. the reason i like mccain is because he's a realist. Honestly, who believes that we can pull out of iraq in six months, one year, or even ten years? Yes, it is a sad reality that we have lost over 4000 soldiers, but media makes it seem like this is ****ing huge. We have lost fewer soldiers in this war than any other war.
Has anyone heard Obama disagree with his ex-pastor? hmmmmm.
I take it you didn't watch his race speach, did you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWe7wTVbLUU

All the ovious flaws that Clinton has and the only thing ya'll have on Barack is his pastor? I mean really? What's not to like about the man? Though I do admit, my only conserns about McCain is his health. 71 years old and has malignant melanoma, or at least healing from it. Not only will he be one of the oldest, but no one knows anything about his health nor has he released anything since 2000. His father lived to be 70 and his grandfather died at 61. I hope that his genes are as strong as his mothers being that she's 94.

[BanginJimmy]

Theres alot to not like Obama also.

1. His Healthcare plan
2. his tax hikes to business
3. expanded welfare
4. Stance on the occupation of Iraq
5. His lack of judgement
6. His lack of national experience
7. his obvious issues with race (taken from his autobiography and his association with his obviously racist pastor)

[Dr.G35]

ill have to watch the video later i have a bad connection at school. but my biggest problem is his lack of experience. he is extremely "young" in the game. and to a certain extent he will divide the country.

[BanginJimmy]

I take it you didn't watch his race speach, did you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWe7wTVbLUU



all this speech did was throw his grandmother under the bus as being a racist.


Also if you think he wrote that speech you are an idiot.

[tony]

all this speech did was throw his grandmother under the bus as being a racist.


Also if you think he wrote that speech you are an idiot.

I'm amazed that is all you took from the speech then turn around and call someone else an idiot. :thinking:

It's also funny that you belittle the idea that Barack wrote the speech himself, I guess when you support a 72 year old that doesn't know the difference between Al Qaeda and "extremists" its hard to fathom a politician that can form a rational thought. He wrote the speech, accept it.

[MistaCee]

Its funny to me...Whenever I ask anyone why they do not like Barack Obama they reply, "Oh he's racist" and can never come up with even a piece of decent evidence to why they think he is.

[tony]

ill have to watch the video later i have a bad connection at school. but my biggest problem is his lack of experience. he is extremely "young" in the game. and to a certain extent he will divide the country.

So was Bill Clinton.. same with J.F.K, and I think they did pretty well.

[MistaCee]

Experience is nothing when running for president. Which candidate has been commander in chief?

[BanginJimmy]

Its funny to me...Whenever I ask anyone why they do not like Barack Obama they reply, "Oh he's racist" and can never come up with even a piece of decent evidence to why they think he is.

people say hes a racist because he attended a church whose preacher was a racist. He also basicly said he didnt like white people in his book.

[BanginJimmy]

So was Bill Clinton.. same with J.F.K, and I think they did pretty well.


both also had alot of problems with extra marital affairs while in office.



Oh and Bill Clinton didnt do a damn thing while in office except bomb someone when he was in trouble. You can never bring up Clinton without mentioning Monica Lewinski and perjury. Just like JFK isnt thought of without a mention of Mariyln Monroe

[blackshine007]

people say hes a racist because he attended a church whose preacher was a racist. He also basicly said he didnt like white people in his book.
I have never even attempted to read his book. I would love to argue you down and say that what you are saying is totally incorrect. Until then, I would love for you to show some actual facts stating that. I believe he has 2 books. Please support your claim or stop letting the liberal media feed you bullshyt. The only thing decent I can say about the democrats is that they are down for the economy with no regards for any war. I think Bush was just a puppet and when McCain gets into office he will be just the same, except for anything war related. That's when his voice will speak out. Like I said, he plainly admitted to not knowing anything about the economy. I honestly think he would be a great Secretary of Defense. But he'd honestly would be a puppet, just like Bush. We don't need that.

[The12lber]

I have never even attempted to read his book. I would love to argue you down and say that what you are saying is totally incorrect. Until then, I would love for you to show some actual facts stating that. I believe he has 2 books. Please support your claim or stop letting the liberal media feed you bullshyt. The only thing decent I can say about the democrats is that they are down for the economy with no regards for any war. I think Bush was just a puppet and when McCain gets into office he will be just the same, except for anything war related. That's when his voice will speak out. Like I said, he plainly admitted to not knowing anything about the economy. I honestly think he would be a great Secretary of Defense. But he'd honestly would be a puppet, just like Bush. We don't need that.
Generally, the media is pro-government with no real bias towards any one party - especially considering this statement in relation to the currently little understood terms 'liberal' and "conservative'.

The one big exception is Fox News, they are generally biased against anything not well understood or liked by Rednecks. As a matter of fact, I'm fairly confident they poll the Squidbillies to figure out which political positions their pundits will push.

[The12lber]

I'm amazed that is all you took from the speech then turn around and call someone else an idiot. :thinking:

It's also funny that you belittle the idea that Barack wrote the speech himself, I guess when you support a 72 year old that doesn't know the difference between Al Qaeda and "extremists" its hard to fathom a politician that can form a rational thought. He wrote the speech, accept it.

You have to be in Al Qaeda to take up arms against the United States. I mean, what are we doing? Occupying another country?

No sir, they invited us. Punch was served.

I just thought I'd take this opportunity to express along with you my discontent at the labeling of all insurgents as "extremists". I'm by no means on their bench cheering them along, but I can certainly empaphize with the position of a young man living a troubled existence in a country occupied by foreign soldiers who frequently kill/torture/disappear your countrymen. I'm pretty sure if I were an Iraqi, if my neighbor's family was lined up and gunned down after their daughter was gang raped by a fireteam of American soldiers I'd get an RPG-7 too.

Islam isn't the cause of the insurgency, the United States is. Rant off.

[On_Her_Face]

Generally, the media is pro-government with no real bias towards any one party - especially considering this statement in relation to the currently little understood terms 'liberal' and "conservative'.

The one big exception is Fox News, they are generally biased against anything not well understood or liked by Rednecks. As a matter of fact, I'm fairly confident they poll the Squidbillies to figure out which political positions their pundits will push.

Fox = mostly conservative
CNN = mostly liberal

however they can not just focus on one party (meaning saying good things about party A and bad things about party B) due to a law, but I forgot what the name of the law was

[The12lber]

Fox = mostly conservative
CNN = mostly liberal

however they can not just focus on one party (meaning saying good things about party A and bad things about party B) due to a law, but I forgot what the name of the law was
No offense but when you make those proclamations I think you're overly concerning yourself with political superficialities.

[On_Her_Face]

No offense but when you make those proclamations I think you're overly concerning yourself with political superficialities.

eh sorta lol

[R3RUN]

No offense but when you make those proclamations I think you're overly concerning yourself with political superficialities.
If you can't see that Fox is conservative and CNN more liberal then you are either retarded or deaf and blind.

[The12lber]

If you can't see that Fox is conservative and CNN more liberal then you are either retarded or deaf and blind.
I'm sorry, I forgot that all you have to do to be liberal is denounce Bush and all you have to do to be conservative is agree with him. My bad smart guy :_(

Unfortunately, I am not as smart as you to only concern myself with these things. I actually looked at the details because I am, clearly, retarded.

Fox news mostly plays host to xenophobia, homophobia, ethnocentricity, undisquised racism, warmongering, proponents of widening surveillance with diminishing civil rights, douchebags who insist its "enhanced interrogation" - not torture- and an occassional rich white guy who explains that the super rich and corporations turning record profits still have it just as bad as you. This isn't actually conservatism. This is idiocy with a neo-conservative (the inbred fourth cousin's once removed roommate of true conservatism) twist.

But seriously - no sarcasm - you obviously have no understanding of politics or what conservatism/liberalism are and lack anything greater than superficial understanding of what you see.

[Total_Blender]

Those of you who said "this country needs to get over the race issue" need to rethink that. Race is still an issue... predominantly African American schools in the inner city are far behind white schools, and out of the number of professional jobs in the US, African Americans are under represented, even with afirmative action. The hard data shows that we are not "equal" in any sense of the word.

Its not just racism toward African Americans, its racism toward other minorities as well. So many of you are quick to point out "Obama's Muslim roots", and point fingers to terrorism. What about the American terrorists? Timothy McVeigh, Eric Robert Rudolph, The Unibomber, Lee Harvey Oswald, etc etc. We are all in an outrage over terrorists sporting beards and turbans but quick to forget that we have been attacked by our own terrorists more often.

Its going to take more to fix the issues of race than to say "OK kids, everybody play nice" lol

[On_Her_Face]

Those of you who said "this country needs to get over the race issue" need to rethink that. Race is still an issue... predominantly African American schools in the inner city are far behind white schools, and out of the number of professional jobs in the US, African Americans are under represented, even with afirmative action. The hard data shows that we are not "equal" in any sense of the word.

Its not just racism toward African Americans, its racism toward other minorities as well. So many of you are quick to point out "Obama's Muslim roots", and point fingers to terrorism. What about the American terrorists? Timothy McVeigh, Eric Robert Rudolph, The Unibomber, Lee Harvey Oswald, etc etc. We are all in an outrage over terrorists sporting beards and turbans but quick to forget that we have been attacked by our own terrorists more often.

Its going to take more to fix the issues of race than to say "OK kids, everybody play nice" lol

Race issues will never be fixed, especially since people from the civil rights era are still alive.

[The12lber]

Its not just racism toward African Americans, its racism toward other minorities as well. So many of you are quick to point out "Obama's Muslim roots", and point fingers to terrorism. What about the American terrorists? Timothy McVeigh, Eric Robert Rudolph, The Unibomber, Lee Harvey Oswald, etc etc. We are all in an outrage over terrorists sporting beards and turbans but quick to forget that we have been attacked by our own terrorists more often.


There's a lot of deep seated racism towards middle eastern people. Notice almost every villain in non-science fiction action movie/TV show is an Islamic extremist of Arabic descent - and they're always called terrorists. Its interesting how there are plenty of other bad people out there who utilize the exact same tactics but aren't called terrorists - various groups in South America come to mind. They're always called much friendlier names like paramilitary groups or guerillas, even though they commonly target police and civilians in bombings, intentionally destabilize the government, etc. I'm fairly confident the Cali and Medellin cartels managed to rack up a higher body count than Al Qaeda even when you do include 9/11.

Along the same lines, I like people who insist they don't hold anything against anyone for religious/racial factors but intimate Barack Obama is a Muslim of Middle Eastern lineage like its a bad thing (aside from the fact that this is totally false claim).

[BanginJimmy]

Those of you who said "this country needs to get over the race issue" need to rethink that. Race is still an issue... predominantly African American schools in the inner city are far behind white schools, and out of the number of professional jobs in the US, African Americans are under represented, even with afirmative action. The hard data shows that we are not "equal" in any sense of the word.

this is technically true, but then again, white people from those same schools arent doing any better. Maybe ALL of them should worry more about learning to read and write than they worry about American Idol or whatever it is. Also when you look at blacks that graduate from college, they percentages are FAR closer.


Its not just racism toward African Americans, its racism toward other minorities as well. So many of you are quick to point out "Obama's Muslim roots", and point fingers to terrorism. What about the American terrorists? Timothy McVeigh, Eric Robert Rudolph, The Unibomber, Lee Harvey Oswald, etc etc. We are all in an outrage over terrorists sporting beards and turbans but quick to forget that we have been attacked by our own terrorists more often.

I have never heard of McVeigh being called anything but a terrorist. Same goes for the Unibomber. Oswald was not a terrorist though. He was just someone that assassinated a President. That doesnt make you a terrorist.
As far as Obama's "muslim roots" that simple BS and everyone with half a brain already knows it.


Its going to take more to fix the issues of race than to say "OK kids, everybody play nice" lol
This is true. We need to keep crackpot racists like Wright, Sharpton, Jackson, the ACLU, and the NAACP away from a tv camera. They do nothing more than make a race issue when there isnt one. Duke Lacross team? Jena 6?

[The12lber]

I have never heard of McVeigh being called anything but a terrorist. Same goes for the Unibomber. Oswald was not a terrorist though. He was just someone that assassinated a President. That doesnt make you a terrorist.


I think he was pointing out that Arabs/Muslims are stereotyped strongly as being terrorists where as terrorist style acts by white christians are actually more common here in the 'States.

While there's no hard and fast definition of what is terrorism and what isn't, I'm pretty sure shooting the **** out of a sitting president is something you could definitely categorize as terrorism.

Also, saw your sig - sales taxes are inherently regressive. Its interesting how people love lining up to get shafted by the super wealthy in this country (8 years of Bush and plenty of retards who love McCain).

[ahmonrah]

dayum!!?? this thread is still wheezin?

i'll read the new responses before i speak.....

[93Polo]

Even if you don't like Obama, its impossible for him to split the country because...


THE COUNTRY IS ALREADY SPLIT AND HASN'T BEEN THIS DIVIDED SINCE THE CIVIL WAR.

The last 2 elections in 2000 and 2004 were basically 50/50 with votes, Bush cheating his way in basically.

Sadly, this country is very split and if anything Obama can ONLY bring us back together again.

Obama is basically cheating his way in as well:


by Ann Coulter
June 4, 2008

Words mean nothing to liberals. They say whatever will help advance their cause at the moment, switch talking points in a heartbeat, and then act indignant if anyone uses the exact same argument they were using five minutes ago.

When Gore won the popular vote in the 2000 election by half a percentage point, but lost the Electoral College -- or, for short, "the constitutionally prescribed method for choosing presidents" -- anyone who denied the sacred importance of the popular vote was either an idiot or a dangerous partisan.

But now Hillary has won the popular vote in a Democratic primary, while Obambi has won under the rules. In a spectacular turnabout, media commentators are heaping sarcasm on our plucky Hillary for imagining the "popular vote" has any relevance whatsoever.

It's the exact same situation as in 2000, with Hillary in the position of Gore and Obama in the position of Bush. The only difference is: Hillary has a much stronger argument than Gore ever did (and Hillary's more of a man than Gore ever was).

Unbeknownst to liberals, who seem to imagine the Constitution is a treatise on gay marriage, our Constitution sets forth rules for the election of a president. Under the Constitution that has led to the greatest individual liberty, prosperity and security ever known to mankind, Americans have no constitutional right to vote for president, at all. (Don't fret Democrats: According to five liberals on the Supreme Court, you do have a right to sodomy and abortion!)

Americans certainly have no right to demand that their vote prevail over the electors' vote.

The Constitution states that electors from each state are to choose the president, and it is up to state legislatures to determine how those electors are selected. It is only by happenstance that most states use a popular vote to choose their electors.

When you vote for president this fall, you will not be voting for Barack Obama or John McCain; you will be voting for an elector who pledges to cast his vote for Obama or McCain. (For those new Obama voters who may be reading, it's like voting for Paula, Randy or Simon to represent you, instead of texting your vote directly.)

Any state could abolish general elections for president tomorrow and have the legislature pick the electors. States could also abolish their winner-take-all method of choosing presidential electors -- as Nebraska and Maine have already done, allowing their electors to be allocated in proportion to the popular vote. And of course there's always the option of voting electors off the island one by one.

If presidential elections were popular vote contests, Bush might have spent more than five minutes campaigning in big liberal states like California and New York. But under a winner-take-all regime, close doesn't count. If a Republican doesn't have a chance to actually win a state, he may as well lose in a landslide. Using the same logic, Gore didn't spend a lot of time campaigning in Texas (and Walter Mondale campaigned exclusively in Minnesota).

Consequently, under both the law and common sense, the famed "popular vote" is utterly irrelevant to presidential elections. It would be like the winner of "Miss Congeniality" claiming that title also made her "Miss America." Obviously, Bush might well have won the popular vote, but he would have used a completely different campaign strategy.

By contrast, there are no constitutional rules to follow with party primaries. Primaries are specifically designed by the parties to choose their strongest candidate for the general election.

Hillary's argument that she won the popular vote is manifestly relevant to that determination. Our brave Hillary has every right to take her delegates to the Democratic National Convention and put her case to a vote. She is much closer to B. Hussein Obama than the sainted Teddy Kennedy was to Carter in 1980 when Teddy staged an obviously hopeless rules challenge at the convention. (I mean rules about choosing the candidate, not rules about crushed ice at after-parties.)

And yet every time Hillary breathes a word about her victory in the popular vote, TV hosts respond with sneering contempt at her gaucherie for even mentioning it. (Of course, if popularity mattered, networks like MSNBC wouldn't exist. That's a station that depends entirely on "superviewers.")

After nearly eight years of having to listen to liberals crow that Bush was "selected, not elected," this is a shocking about-face. Apparently unaware of the new party line that the popular vote amounts to nothing more than warm spit, just last week HBO ran its movie "Recount," about the 2000 Florida election, the premise of which is that sneaky Republicans stole the presidency from popular vote champion Al Gore. (Despite massive publicity, the movie bombed, with only about 1 million viewers, so now HBO is demanding a "recount.")

So where is Kevin Spacey from HBO's "Recount," to defend Hillary, shouting: "WHO WON THIS PRIMARY?"

In the Democrats' "1984" world, the popular vote is an unconcept, doubleplusungood verging crimethink. We have always been at war with Eastasia.

[93Polo]

We broke Vietnam and Japan but that didnt mean stay there and allow our soldiers to be killed for years to come along with billions of dollars spent.

The US still has troops in Japan, Korea, and Germany as well spending millions rebuilding the countries.

[tony]

The US still has troops in Japan, Korea, and Germany as well spending millions rebuilding the countries.

You missed the point.. we don't have soldiers there fighting opposition any longer. Big difference between Japan, South Korea, Germany and Iraq

And again I wish people would come up with their own thoughts and rationalizations rather than consistently pasting the same stuff over and over. Make a point, if I need to read an Ann Coulter article I'll go to her website.

[93Polo]

You missed the point.. we don't have soldiers there fighting opposition any longer. Big difference between Japan, South Korea, Germany and Iraq

And again I wish people would come up with their own thoughts and rationalizations rather than consistently pasting the same stuff over and over. Make a point, if I need to read an Ann Coulter article I'll go to her website.

The points are Obama did not win the popular vote and relies on delegates from the Democratic party to get the nomination. The country is promoted as a democracy but the the candidate that the people have chosen will not be running.

The US troops had much less restriction in conquering a country than what they face today. Sadam maybe out but the country is far from conquered. If the US leaves now another dictator will pick where Sadam left off. I may not agree with entering Irag in the first place but we are in it now.

[Nerdsrock22]

Make a point, if I need to read an Ann Coulter article I'll go to her website.

Yeah I guess if were picking sides, I'm prolly on her side, but lets refrain from quoting her as she is a bit of an idiot.

[BanginJimmy]

You missed the point.. we don't have soldiers there fighting opposition any longer. Big difference between Japan, South Korea, Germany and Iraq

so just because there are alot of foreign fighters attacking US tropps we should give up and go home?

A fact that most people forget about is that most of the people attacking US troops are foreign. They flow into the country through Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Syria to fight. They also bring in the money and weapons needed to continue the fight.

[tony]

The points are Obama did not win the popular vote and relies on delegates from the Democratic party to get the nomination. The country is promoted as a democracy but the the candidate that the people have chosen will not be running.

The US troops had much less restriction in conquering a country than what they face today. Sadam maybe out but the country is far from conquered. If the US leaves now another dictator will pick where Sadam left off. I may not agree with entering Irag in the first place but we are in it now.

There is no popular vote in the democratic primaries because of Caucus states, under Democratic rules each vote is not tallied.. therefor making Hillary's claim that she won the popular vote null and void because it completely dismisses the Caucus states Obama won. PLUS Hillary includes Michigan and Florida, two states that did not count from the beginning.

Who is more important to us, Iraq or this country? You're concerned about Iraq while we spend $12 Billion a month over there and the value of the dollar tanks pushing gas prices to $4 a gallon. Iraq has had more than enough time to create an effective government.. their wellbeing is not our #1 priority.

I mean when its all said and done who cares that gas is $7 a gallon.. the fact that Iraq isn't under dictator rule makes it all better. :rolleyes:

You need to do more research instead of quoting articles.

[tony]

so just because there are alot of foreign fighters attacking US tropps we should give up and go home?

A fact that most people forget about is that most of the people attacking US troops are foreign. They flow into the country through Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Syria to fight. They also bring in the money and weapons needed to continue the fight.

No, because there is no clear objective and nothing to be gained in occupying Iraq, that makes it a waste of time. The real threat was in Afghanistan and Pakistan.. not Iraq. Give one GOOD reason why we should stay? From what you've stated here all the surrounding countries are fueling the war so really.. whats the point?

Knowing when to quit is not the same thing as surrender.

[BanginJimmy]

No, because there is no clear objective and nothing to be gained in occupying Iraq, that makes it a waste of time. The real threat was in Afghanistan and Pakistan.. not Iraq. Give one GOOD reason why we should stay? From what you've stated here all the surrounding countries are fueling the war so really.. whats the point?

Knowing when to quit is not the same thing as surrender.


1 good reason is all you want?

Here you go


We went in there and dismantled an oppressive govt. Now the country is in shambles and unless we stick around to get it back on its collective feet it will be nothing more than a rich breading ground for future terrorists.

Heres a bonus for you:
If were were to leave on Jan 1 2009 with the country in its current state who do you think we come in to fill the void? Do you think its going to be a level headed Iraqi looking to make Iraq a positive member of the international Community? Or do you think its going to be another militant radical thats being backed by Iran? Who do you think we are safer with?

[Spektrewing386]

We shouldnt have been in Iraq anyway.

Why did we go?
-WMDs?
-free their people?


sounds like a bunch of BS. If Cheney and Rumsfeld wanted to liberate people why didnt we invade some subsaharan African nation? Why didnt they decide to go into North Korea? They have WMDs and people that are not free.... hell you even have evidence of WMDs in North Korea. We could EASILY topple any subsaharan African nation, many were there is violence and oppression. North Korea is a third the size of Iraq, a blitzkrig on the DPRK would have effectivly eliminated the threat of them striking back, then a clean up of remaining forces would have been easy. We have clear evidence of WMDs in DPRK and evidence of human oppression. Why did we not invade DPRK?
Because Cheny and Rumsfeld and MANY others wanted the goodies in the middle east, and the joys it could bring them and the people and companies connected to them.

Liberating people and getting rid of WMDs is NOT the true reason we went into Iraq. Think about it, there are countries out there that have not free people, and have others that have WMDs. But the one thing they dont have is resources we need. Also dont forget about the few people it can benefit.

President Dwight Eisenhower warned us about this very thing in his farewell speech to the American public:
"A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction...
This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence — economic, political, even spiritual — is felt in every city, every statehouse, every office of the federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals so that security and liberty may prosper together."


There is no good reason to stay in Iraq, our job is done there. And once we leave, the insurgent's job will be done too. There is other fighting for power and stuff, but we can leave that to the Iraqi army which we are training and the special forces that we will leave behind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmP8Bgof6KE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rfetdjjb3YY -Why We Fight
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/bushswar/ -PBS documentary "Bush's War"

[tony]

1 good reason is all you want?

Here you go


We went in there and dismantled an oppressive govt. Now the country is in shambles and unless we stick around to get it back on its collective feet it will be nothing more than a rich breading ground for future terrorists.

Heres a bonus for you:
If were were to leave on Jan 1 2009 with the country in its current state who do you think we come in to fill the void? Do you think its going to be a level headed Iraqi looking to make Iraq a positive member of the international Community? Or do you think its going to be another militant radical thats being backed by Iran? Who do you think we are safer with?

lol You guys make this so easy.

Two names, Ibn Sheikh al-Libby and "CurveBall" You can look them both up and double check my knowledge. These are two seperate individuals who provided intelligence to the U.S tying Iraq to Al Qaeda. al-Libby (though it cannot be confirmed 100%) gave his statement under torture, "Curveball" never actually dealt directly with the United States and was a German informant.. problem was the intelligence was false. So the whole "Evil Dictator" thing.. yeah, okay. Seems like Iraq was pretty stable to me and once the U.N sanctions were lifted it seems like Iraq was on its way to economic prosperity.. they had nothing to do with 9/11.

On the second statement. We tried instilling a "level headed" (aka U.S friendly) leader in Ahmad Chalabi and guess what? The Iraqi people did not want him. If we are to stay it needs to be a joint effort with the United Nations.. if its only us then we are doing more harm staying there then if we left. What you've stated here is the politics of fear, "If we leave this and that will happen." Fear doesn't motivate me and I'm sorry to say for conservatives but those who are looking for change don't get motivated by fear either. Solutions motivate, bring the troops home, work on domestic security and building our military and it doesn't matter what Iraq does.

[The12lber]

Heres a bonus for you:
If were were to leave on Jan 1 2009 with the country in its current state who do you think we come in to fill the void? Do you think its going to be a level headed Iraqi looking to make Iraq a positive member of the international Community? Or do you think its going to be another militant radical thats being backed by Iran? Who do you think we are safer with?

I'm pretty sure that between Gulf War #2 and Gulf War #3 (Yes, there were three) approximately 0 Americans died at the hands of Iraqis. Shockingly enough, the same thing goes for Iran. Since the war began over 3,000 Americans have died there "defending freedom". We and our troops, who shockingly enough are Americans too, are safer here.

Iraq was about oil, empire and valuable defense/munitions contracts and it always was.

Accept it and move on.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/revealed-secret-plan-to-keep-iraq-under-us-control-840512.html

[Total_Blender]

What you've stated here is the politics of fear, "If we leave this and that will happen." Fear doesn't motivate me and I'm sorry to say for conservatives but those who are looking for change don't get motivated by fear either. Solutions motivate, bring the troops home, work on domestic security and building our military and it doesn't matter what Iraq does.

QFT it was fear that was used to sell the war to the American people and the American people are only now seeing past it. Iraq was not a threat in 2002.The truth is that since Saddam's Baath party was actually a mutual enemy of Al Qaeda we could have probably used Iraq in some capacity as an ally in the war on terror.:ninja:

Eventually Iraqis will have to take their country for themselves. A continued US presence will eventually just be a crutch for them. They can blame their problems on the US instead of actually taking initiative to do anything about them. Maybe Iran will have some influence, but whats best for Iraq to have long term stability is probably the support of it's neighbors in the region.

[SPOOLIN]

wow, and the survey says..............

[BanginJimmy]

I'm pretty sure that between Gulf War #2 and Gulf War #3 (Yes, there were three) approximately 0 Americans died at the hands of Iraqis. Shockingly enough, the same thing goes for Iran. Since the war began over 3,000 Americans have died there "defending freedom". We and our troops, who shockingly enough are Americans too, are safer here.

Iraq was about oil, empire and valuable defense/munitions contracts and it always was.

Accept it and move on.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/revealed-secret-plan-to-keep-iraq-under-us-control-840512.html

there have been far more than 3 gulf wars. I can think of 3 involving only Israel.

If this all about oil then why arent we seeing the benefits of it? Let me guess, its because Bush is keeping it all to himself and will only use the oil he has stached away when he is out of office.

[The12lber]

there have been far more than 3 gulf wars. I can think of 3 involving only Israel.


Um, are you kidding me? Israel isn't bordering the Persian Gulf. Israel borders the Meditteranean. Iraq does, that's why in 1991 they called it the "Gulf War". That's why they called the Iran Iraq war of the 80's the "First Gulf War". Iran Iraq war, what is commonly called the Gulf War and the Iraq War = 3 Gulf Wars.

Work harder on your geography.

If this all about oil then why arent we seeing the benefits of it? Let me guess, its because Bush is keeping it all to himself and will only use the oil he has stached away when he is out of office.
Because Iraq doesn't export enough to offset the effect of tremendous increases in demand in addition to the increased cost of buying foreign petroleum with the weaker American dollar.


Oil is the only reason we involve ourselves in the Middle East, if you think otherwise you're a moron.

[BanginJimmy]

Oil is the only reason we involve ourselves in the Middle East, if you think otherwise you're a moron.


You are correct, but not in the way you are implying. It is in the US's best intrest to make sure those wells keep pumping and that crude continues to land on US shores. Just like Japan during WWII. Just like when Germany invaded Russia. The US MUST do what needs to be done to keep the oil flowing.

Personally I think we should leave the mid east all together and start drilling closer to home, too bad the dems wont let that happen.

[The12lber]

You are correct, but not in the way you are implying. It is in the US's best intrest to make sure those wells keep pumping and that crude continues to land on US shores.
Um, that's exactly what I was implying. And we'll do any morally objectionable things we have to do in order to accomplish that. Supporting totalitarian governments, invading and occupying foreign nations, overthrowing democratic governments to be replaced with U.S. puppets, etc.

[1SOL2NV]

Obama is going to open old wounds and it is not going to be pretty. i think hilary will be the same way .... so i could care less ..... :2cents: neg rep me all you want but thats my opinion .... america is trying to be world police and govern everybody .... i love my country ... but the way people are now days ... ha .we should have never went to iraq and stayed for this long .... it was never about osama ... bush stuck his nose into a place it should have never been. so **** him and the rest of the candidates for president . this country is going to **** ... and the sad thing is ... were letting it .:cry:

[BanginJimmy]

Um, that's exactly what I was implying. And we'll do any morally objectionable things we have to do in order to accomplish that. Supporting totalitarian governments, invading and occupying foreign nations, overthrowing democratic governments to be replaced with U.S. puppets, etc.


I agree with most of what you said, and I basicly agree with it. Face it, oil is the lifeblood of our country, and anyone that put that supply in jepordy is threatening our national security.

The bolded part is funny though as I dont remember the US ever removing a democratic govt and placing a puppet govt there.

[MoFo]

i think hilary will be the same way .... so i could care less ..... :2cents: neg rep me all you want but thats my opinion .... america is trying to be world police and govern everybody .... i love my country ... but the way people are now days ... ha .we should have never went to iraq and stayed for this long .... it was never about osama ... bush stuck his nose into a place it should have never been. so **** him and the rest of the candidates for president . this country is going to **** ... and the sad thing is ... were letting it .:cry:
your style of typing hurts my brain...

i personally don't think obama will tear this country apart. the country right now is already in a very bad position. hilary from what ive heard has her moments and has been called bitchy at times. she's also a woman who im sure doesn't get laid often, so that right there can cause "consentration problems." lol but eh

[tony]

The bolded part is funny though as I dont remember the US ever removing a democratic govt and placing a puppet govt there.

From Wiki:

Ahmed Abdel Hadi Chalabi was interim oil minister in Iraq in April-May 2005 and December-January 2006 and deputy prime minister from May 2005 until May 2006. Chalabi failed to win a seat in parliament in the December 2005 elections, and when the new Iraqi cabinet was announced in May 2006, he was not awarded a post. Once dubbed the "George Washington of Iraq" by American neoconservatives, he has fallen out of favor and is currently under investigation by several U.S. government sources. He is also wanted for embezzling nearly $300 million through a bank he created in Jordan.

[1SOL2NV]

your style of typing hurts my brain...

i personally don't think obama will tear this country apart. the country right now is already in a very bad position. hilary from what ive heard has her moments and has been called bitchy at times. she's also a woman who im sure doesn't get laid often, so that right there can cause "consentration problems." lol but eh sorry lol

[TheDarkRacer]

How come ppl didnt try and stop bush from gettting re-elected like they are tryn to stop obama from getting elected? (p.s. i didnt read any of the 10 pages. Just food for thought.)
~TDR

[BanginJimmy]

From Wiki:

Ahmed Abdel Hadi Chalabi was interim oil minister in Iraq in April-May 2005 and December-January 2006 and deputy prime minister from May 2005 until May 2006. Chalabi failed to win a seat in parliament in the December 2005 elections, and when the new Iraqi cabinet was announced in May 2006, he was not awarded a post. Once dubbed the "George Washington of Iraq" by American neoconservatives, he has fallen out of favor and is currently under investigation by several U.S. government sources. He is also wanted for embezzling nearly $300 million through a bank he created in Jordan.

that sounds to me like the US is allowing Iraqi's to freely elect their own leaders.

[Spektrewing386]

and now the US is comprimising Iraq's sovereignty with new US-Iraq pacts which will establish many permanet US military bases, even the iraqi's dont like it.

[Gorilla Eg!]

first of all *I AM NOT RACIST*.... now thats out of the way....yes the fact that obama might become president startles me....not that I believe Hillary or Mcain could do any better.... I tell you what really made me start thinking is with talks of him being muslim and I saw an email the other day that said it has been predicted that arabic/ middle eastern people will be the ones who will set forth the economic changes in the near future... Im guessing its bec they own so much damn oil for 1.....and 2 they own the majority of business around many countries!....though im not parital to (some of) their ways of fighting and killing not only themselves but everyone else in the world....it just freaks me out to think of what might happen if he gets into office and finally comes out as a muslim and "rallys the troops" so to speak.....but who knows maybe im a little :screwy: on the matter....but maybe im not....guess only time will tell........

[Spektrewing386]

obama isnt even arab or middle eastern, so.... yeah. and hes not muslim, hes christian, even though his father is muslim.... but who cares?

[The12lber]

I agree with most of what you said, and I basicly agree with it. Face it, oil is the lifeblood of our country, and anyone that put that supply in jepordy is threatening our national security.

The bolded part is funny though as I dont remember the US ever removing a democratic govt and placing a puppet govt there.
That's probably because you don't know anything about history, which is quite shocking considering that you knew the relatively obscure fact that Israel secretely borders the Persian Gulf. Iran's democratically elected Government was replaced by the United States with the Shah. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Pakistan all have oppressive governments supported by our own. If you don't believe me, you should take a look at the hardware their armed forces are sporting.

[BanginJimmy]

and now the US is comprimising Iraq's sovereignty with new US-Iraq pacts which will establish many permanet US military bases, even the iraqi's dont like it.

I heard something about that vaguely, got a link to more info on it?

[Spektrewing386]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1810897,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1812446,00.html

[BanginJimmy]

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1810897,00.html

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1812446,00.html


thanks.


I agree with the general purpose of the agreement, but the timing is horrible. If the US wants bases in Iraq, thats fine, but wait until the country is pacified and a STABLE govt is in place.

[Spektrewing386]

I think permanet bases in iraq will cause much anger to their people. It is a slap in the face to their independant sovereighty. Really, pernament US bases in Iraqi will bring a world of trouble and unrest to the area.

Next up for pernament US military bases? Poland and Czech Republic with the missile bases and radar stations, after that? Iran maybe?

http://www.globalpolicy.org/images/maps/empire/usbases200103.jpg

[BanginJimmy]

The US has actual bases in Germany, England, Iceland, Japan, and Korea. All these other installations are nothing more than maybe an outdated listening post for the NSA, or not even used.

There are no permanent US bases in Australia, Saudi, Afghanistan, or Columbia as your map would suggest.

[Spektrewing386]

Yes there are. There is a MAJOR air force base in Germany, its a frequent stop for planes heading to Iraq.

The ones in Japan and Korea are also quite extensive, as they are used to to monitor the North Koreans. And if anything broke out with North Korea, they are the first responders.

The United States pulled out of Saudi Arabia in mid 2003. The major one was our presence at Prince Sultan air base. Which to us, was used for the past 15 years in Operation Southern Watch to moniter the Iraqi no-fly zones and was also used as the command and control center for the invasion of iraq. We used the base as a launching pad for our aircraft. We moved it to Qatar.

We have bases in Australia, theres a new military communications one coming in Geraldton on the west coast. Also dont forget the military satellite intel base in Pine Gap (i think central australia).


And of course there are bases in Afghanistan. And of course those bases can pretty much be described as pernament. Hell, we still have important bases in Japan, and ww2 was over 60 years ago, so you think any base in afghanistan is temporary? rubbish.

We have a proposed base in Columbia in the La Guajira region, and im pretty sure we already have troops there. We also have troops stationed in Manta, Ecuador.




Every source, every map is pretty much the same as the one I posted above.

[BanginJimmy]

most of these installations you are talking of, have like 10-12 personell there and are nothing more than listening posts of some sort or another.

Also, if you want to get technical, the US has a military presence in something like 150 countries.

[Spektrewing386]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/US_military_bases_in_the_world_2007.PNG

theres a map with numbers for reference

[The12lber]

thanks.


I agree with the general purpose of the agreement, but the timing is horrible. If the US wants bases in Iraq, thats fine, but wait until the country is pacified and a STABLE govt is in place.

The agreement gives us complete control of their airspace and total immunity from Iraqi as well as complete authority within the nation. The Iraqi government still exists, but the United States could override their authority at any time in any way it sees fit.

The agreement basically establishes the United States Empire permanently in Iraq.

[ARH1192]

I'm not racist, but with a black man as the President I have the feeling there will be an assassination.

[The12lber]

I'm not racist, but with a black man as the President I have the feeling there will be an assassination.
I have a feeling its going to be a disaster. Does anyone remember the first Palmer administration?

[BanginJimmy]

and Jack Bauer isnt around to bail him out either.

[ShooterMcGavin]

lulz

[The12lber]

I have a feeling its going to be a disaster. Does anyone remember the first Palmer administration?
I forgot as well the disaster that took place under the black president in Deep Impact.

Vote McCain or be vaporized by a comet.

[BanginJimmy]

I forgot as well the disaster that took place under the black president in Deep Impact.

Vote McCain or be vaporized by a comet.

Morgan Freeman is God though, didnt you see Bruce Almighty?

[Apollo]

The Democrates are turning American into a Socialistic society, Meaning there goes Democracy out the door. Its sounds like a good idea but its not. Taking away our freedoms more than the republicans could ever do.

[The12lber]

The Democrates are turning American into a Socialistic society, Meaning there goes Democracy out the door. Its sounds like a good idea but its not. Taking away our freedoms more than the republicans could ever do.
Actually, Neo-conservative ideology/political philosophy championed by Republicans have been responsible for stripping you of most of your rights.

The Democrats just kind of went along with it because they're also politicians, and as such are mostly self serving douchebags.

More over, all legislative trends skew towards creating laws/tax codes/etc favorable to wealthy, so the Socialism thing is bull****.

[wantboost]

More over, all legislative trends skew towards creating laws/tax codes/etc favorable to wealthy, so the Socialism thing is bull****.
lol ;)

[IMPORTchic]

Maybe this is just my 2 cents and is not worth anything, but I feel like Obama is going to cause a big race thing if he wins and mccain is going to get us in deeper economically. Maybe im too young and inexperienced to have an opinion but thats just what I get out of it. I am not sure of my political side. Dem/rep? I just go by what I read and hear in the media(which is ****ty) and go with it. I am not going to vote this year, BUT if I was......I would have to say mccain. With living in the south I dont feel like dealing with all the racial stuff! Economoy is already shot anyways. This is 2008.....people need to get over theirselves. There are just as many "nigs" as white trash. Same thing! THere are good and bad in every race! Just ignorance in between!

And as for the war deal. I know a TON of people over there fighting. One person being very dear to my heart, he has already been blown up and recieved a purple heart once and is going back for another tour in the first of '09. I do not want him to have to go back or anyone for that matter, but we all know that if we just pull out its going to be HELLATIOUS! There is no telling what will happen here! It will have to be a gradual thing. I feel that they could possibly decrease the number of troops in Iraq, but need to increase in Afghanistan. Does anyone hear the report of the amounts of OUR people being killed over there? They obviously need backup or something.....


Like I said....just my 2cents.....

Just please keep all of the miliary in prayers!

[tony]

Maybe this is just my 2 cents and is not worth anything, but I feel like Obama is going to cause a big race thing if he wins and mccain is going to get us in deeper economically. Maybe im too young and inexperienced to have an opinion but thats just what I get out of it. I am not sure of my political side. Dem/rep? I just go by what I read and hear in the media(which is ****ty) and go with it. I am not going to vote this year, BUT if I was......I would have to say mccain. With living in the south I dont feel like dealing with all the racial stuff! Economoy is already shot anyways. This is 2008.....people need to get over theirselves. There are just as many "nigs" as white trash. Same thing! THere are good and bad in every race! Just ignorance in between!

And as for the war deal. I know a TON of people over there fighting. One person being very dear to my heart, he has already been blown up and recieved a purple heart once and is going back for another tour in the first of '09. I do not want him to have to go back or anyone for that matter, but we all know that if we just pull out its going to be HELLATIOUS! There is no telling what will happen here! It will have to be a gradual thing. I feel that they could possibly decrease the number of troops in Iraq, but need to increase in Afghanistan. Does anyone hear the report of the amounts of OUR people being killed over there? They obviously need backup or something.....


Like I said....just my 2cents.....

Just please keep all of the miliary in prayers!

You're never too young to have an opinion or get engaged in what is going on because it effects your future.. don't feel like you should be quiet simply because of your age of how someone may respond to what you think.

[Tasuki_Civic]

Tony is right.

its America who will judge the big picture, "economy wise", rather than the little things that people will naturally hate on. There is always a portion who will disagree on the littlest things and make them bigger than what they are.


you mite have to pray alot more pretty soon. Bush has been talkin about another war by the end of his term. lol things are going to be pretty interesting in the fall.

[Tasuki_Civic]

I tell you like this.....No one ever knows what those 2 ( Mccain or Obama) will do untill they get into office. No one ever knew what any of the past presidents would have done. Shyt look at Bush! lol alot of people are appalled by his perfomance in the past 2 terms.

If you like Bush performance in the past 2 terms then doggonit vote for Mccain if not Obama is your best choice wither you like or not. atleast you made the safest bet on your own opinion.

[chameleon30038]

Who the hell wants to be proud of a country who is having an endless war for profit and sending its loved one to be killed. It doesn't really matter who is president this country is f**ked and will stay that way the president doesn't have that much power as all the corrupted politicians and business men that practically run the country now. The Bush family is making a killing off their oil business but no one pays that any attention.

[Tasuki_Civic]

Who the hell wants to be proud of a country who is having an endless war for profit and sending its loved one to be killed. It doesn't really matter who is president this country is f**ked and will stay that way the president doesn't have that much power as all the corrupted politicians and business men that practically run the country now. The Bush family is making a killing off their oil business but no one pays that any attention.


him and his family wont be struggling after his term is over lol

[Lucky DAWG]

Who the hell wants to be proud of a country who is having an endless war for profit and sending its loved one to be killed. It doesn't really matter who is president this country is f**ked and will stay that way the president doesn't have that much power as all the corrupted politicians and business men that practically run the country now. The Bush family is making a killing off their oil business but no one pays that any attention.



All i got from your rant is that you are anti-business. This is the nature of how organizations and nations throughout history rise and fall in power. If you think they are corrupted then you honestly must not know much history.



Move if you hate this country, i'm sure you will find much less "corrupted and greedy" politicians elsewhere, thats a joke

[BanginJimmy]

lets have some fun


Who the hell wants to be proud of a country who is having an endless war for profit

I am quite proud of my country. We are the only remaining superpower and the best country in the world to live in.

Name a single war that someone didnt profit from. I know Douglas did pretty damn well for itself in WWII. As did GM and Harley.


and sending its loved one to be killed.

This might be a halfway valid arguement if every one of them did not volunteer for it.


It doesn't really matter who is president this country is f**ked and will stay that way
I'm willing to bet people were saying the same things during the great depression. As it turns out the US didnt do half bad for itself.


the president doesn't have that much power as all the corrupted politicians

At least you know a little bit about how the country works,


and business men that practically run the country now.

This is a stretch, I would say lobbiests and special intrests and not really businessmen. Either way though, how can you blame them from trying to make a buck? So long as they arent doing anything illegal then more power to them.



The Bush family is making a killing off their oil business but no one pays that any attention.

Where have you been? People have been mentioning that Bush is an oil man for the last 5 years. I have sour news for you though. Oil companies dont set oil/gas prices. They are simply benefitting from the speculation on wall street.

[BB6dohcvtec]

lets have some fun



I am quite proud of my country. We are the only remaining superpower and the best country in the world to live in.

Name a single war that someone didnt profit from. I know Douglas did pretty damn well for itself in WWII. As did GM and Harley.



This might be a halfway valid arguement if every one of them did not volunteer for it.


I'm willing to bet people were saying the same things during the great depression. As it turns out the US didnt do half bad for itself.



At least you know a little bit about how the country works,



This is a stretch, I would say lobbiests and special intrests and not really businessmen. Either way though, how can you blame them from trying to make a buck? So long as they arent doing anything illegal then more power to them.




Where have you been? People have been mentioning that Bush is an oil man for the last 5 years. I have sour news for you though. Oil companies dont set oil/gas prices. They are simply benefitting from the speculation on wall street.

and who are the ones that create that speculation. put one little word out there that freaks ppl out at wall street goes crazy.

[BanginJimmy]

and who are the ones that create that speculation. put one little word out there that freaks ppl out at wall street goes crazy.

US news media, foreign news media, US and foreign oil companies and just about any other source of info you can think about.

[Lucky DAWG]

US news media, foreign news media, US and foreign oil companies and just about any other source of info you can think about.



honestly...


was he expecting a different answer then that? as if it was Bush or something causing they hysteria?

[BanginJimmy]

honestly...


was he expecting a different answer then that? as if it was Bush or something causing they hysteria?

Thats probably what he was implying, but as with everyone else that says that, he has nothing to back it up.

[Spektrewing386]

I am quite proud of my country. We are the only remaining superpower


we wont be for long, but the neocons are doing all they can to prevent it



Name a single war that someone didnt profit from. I know Douglas did pretty damn well for itself in WWII. As did GM and Harley.

but its the way some of the current companies profit. In which they give our soldiers the crappiest services and charge 300x the price for it. They profit the more they spend, but they dont spend on the services they are sopossed to provide. called "cost-plus".

[BanginJimmy]

we wont be for long, but the neocons are doing all they can to prevent it

I think we will come out of this better than when we came in, until we forget what got us into this mess in the first place. Its much the same as it was during the great depression. Artifically inflated markets, in this case oil. Huge public debt and out of control spending just like we do today with CC debt. Then to make it worse, govt interference just like FDR and Hoover did extended the depression a number of years.



but its the way some of the current companies profit. In which they give our soldiers the crappiest services and charge 300x the price for it. They profit the more they spend, but they dont spend on the services they are sopossed to provide. called "cost-plus".

So you mean to tell me a govt contract is poorly run and poorly supervised? Wow, what a concept. This wont happen with socialized healthcare though right?

[Spektrewing386]

I think we will come out of this better than when we came in, until we forget what got us into this mess in the first place. Its much the same as it was during the great depression. Artifically inflated markets, in this case oil. Huge public debt and out of control spending just like we do today with CC debt. Then to make it worse, govt interference just like FDR and Hoover did extended the depression a number of years.


im talking about the power hungry people who are preventing other nations from challenging the current status quo. Also FDR HELPED recover us from the depresison, not make it worse. it was government interference for the better.




So you mean to tell me a govt contract is poorly run and poorly supervised? Wow, what a concept. This wont happen with socialized healthcare though right?


Im sorry to break your heart, jimmy. but government contracts arnt socialized. the government is a client of the company... not the other way around.

But whats weird is when a top member of the government is associated with the contracted company (yeah you know what i mean)

But its all about the people at the top. Anyone can make anything bad and poorly run, doesnt matter if its socialized or not.

[Lucky DAWG]

im talking about the power hungry people who are preventing other nations from challenging the current status quo. Also FDR HELPED recover us from the depresison, not make it worse. it was government interference for the better.





Im sorry to break your heart, jimmy. but government contracts arnt socialized. the government is a client of the company... not the other way around.

But whats weird is when a top member of the government is associated with the contracted company (yeah you know what i mean)

But its all about the people at the top. Anyone can make anything bad and poorly run, doesnt matter if its socialized or not.




you are sorely mistaken. Look at the early years of FDR, it got worse when he got into office before it got better.




And no companies will not give our soldiers the BEST equipment possible because it is simply not financially reasonable, i'm sure out there they have some new protective devices / clothing for soldiers but are not releasing it yet because it is not cost efficient, a company is not going to bankrupt themselves for humanitarian purposes, you wouldn't either if you owned it.


And to argue that we poorly arm our soldiers is ridiculous, you have been watching too much news media of certain instances, our budget is higher then the rest of the world's combined. You would be astonished to see the training they go through and how much money is spent preparing them, its quite the opposite actually. Most other countries in the world are more concerned with the outcome then the means at which they put their own soldiers at risk, look at the people we are war with in the middle east, perfect example.

I don't think you appreciate how good it is here, this scare of a recession which is far from a depression, unless you make it one, is the only reason why you are freaking out.

[Lucky DAWG]

im talking about the power hungry people who are preventing other nations from challenging the current status quo. Also FDR HELPED recover us from the depresison, not make it worse. it was government interference for the better.





Im sorry to break your heart, jimmy. but government contracts arnt socialized. the government is a client of the company... not the other way around.

But whats weird is when a top member of the government is associated with the contracted company (yeah you know what i mean)

But its all about the people at the top. Anyone can make anything bad and poorly run, doesnt matter if its socialized or not.



you're correct there. In a socialized one the people at the top and the people at the bottom both have the power to do that. Its called laziness when there is no incentives.

[Spektrewing386]

Did you read someone else's post and accidently respond to mine?




And no companies will not give our soldiers the BEST equipment possible because it is simply not financially reasonable.


You cant be farther than what i was talking about.

for example. it costs the government $100 to have the company do 1 load of laundry. When the soldiers claim they can do it better themselves, they are forbidden to and must hand their laundry over to the contracted company.




And to argue that we poorly arm our soldiers is ridiculous, you have been watching too much news media of certain instances, our budget is higher then the rest of the world's combined. You would be astonished to see the training they go through and how much money is spent preparing them, its quite the opposite actually. Most other countries in the world are more concerned with the outcome then the means at which they put their own soldiers at risk, look at the people we are war with in the middle east, perfect example.

???? I wasnt talking out the soldiers weapons or combat equipment. I dont know how you came to that conclusion.



I don't think you appreciate how good it is here, this scare of a recession which is far from a depression, unless you make it one, is the only reason why you are freaking out.

You really didnt get the jist of my post did you?




Anyway, I see how some people are freaking out over socialized healthcare saying its going to suck. Have you forgotten that our education system is socialized? Just about every education system in the world is socialized.
If you say that we cant afford it, then take comfort that we wont be spending $12 billion a month for the next 4 years for something that should have never happened.


When I talk about the war I sometimes forget im in a die hard red state.

[BanginJimmy]

You cant be farther than what i was talking about.

for example. it costs the government $100 to have the company do 1 load of laundry. When the soldiers claim they can do it better themselves, they are forbidden to and must hand their laundry over to the contracted company.

If this isnt just a random example you are wrong. The entire time I was in afghanistan I did my own laundry. All it cost me was the price of soap and drier sheets.

[Spektrewing386]

If this isnt just a random example you are wrong. The entire time I was in afghanistan I did my own laundry. All it cost me was the price of soap and drier sheets.


must be different for different bases. I'll consult my friends that are in iraq.
but they do overcharge by quite a bit.

[BanginJimmy]

Im sorry to break your heart, jimmy. but government contracts arnt socialized. the government is a client of the company... not the other way around.

I never said govt contracts are socialized. I said Obama's healthcare plan was socialist.



But whats weird is when a top member of the government is associated with the contracted company (yeah you know what i mean)
I have always have a problem with KBR and Cheney's association with them. Even if it is 100% legitwhich I dont think it is, it still reeks of corruption. That alone should have been enough to take them out of the running for the contract.


But its all about the people at the top. Anyone can make anything bad and poorly run, doesnt matter if its socialized or not.

But no one can do this as effectivly as our govt. There isnt a single govt run program that isnt burried in fraud and some programs actually have the cost of fraud added into the budget.

[BanginJimmy]

must be different for different bases. I'll consult my friends that are in iraq.
but they do overcharge by quite a bit.

If its like it was in Afghanistan then the contractor actually has to buy the water and have it trucked into the base, or buy the cleaned grey water from the govt to do the job. That greatly increases the costs for them. When I was there it worked out to about $5 a week for 2 laundry bags.

[Lucky DAWG]

Did you read someone else's post and accidently respond to mine?



You cant be farther than what i was talking about.

for example. it costs the government $100 to have the company do 1 load of laundry. When the soldiers claim they can do it better themselves, they are forbidden to and must hand their laundry over to the contracted company.




???? I wasnt talking out the soldiers weapons or combat equipment. I dont know how you came to that conclusion.



You really didnt get the jist of my post did you?




Anyway, I see how some people are freaking out over socialized healthcare saying its going to suck. Have you forgotten that our education system is socialized? Just about every education system in the world is socialized.
If you say that we cant afford it, then take comfort that we wont be spending $12 billion a month for the next 4 years for something that should have never happened.


When I talk about the war I sometimes forget im in a die hard red state.


if that wasn't your point then you are right, i have no idea what you are trying to get at, it seemed pretty literal.



and education isn't really a big concern of mine to be completely honest with you, i know it should be but there are much higher priorities to me.


I went to a private school, and i will be sending my children to a private school for lower education. atleast from middle school to highschool, when they get to 10th or 11th grade i will let them decide for themselves.


But i know that middle school is pretty much the key time in a kid's life where in the public systems around here it pretty much decides what kind of kid they are going to be from innocent elementary school student to being introducted to some delinquit activites and drugs.


I know i would have probably gone down a much different road if i had went to marietta middle school, the highschool wasn't so bad; but the middle school blew.



So pretty much what i'm saying is it will have to do a big turn around before i even consider sending my kid through the system.

[Lucky DAWG]

I never said govt contracts are socialized. I said Obama's healthcare plan was socialist.



I have always have a problem with KBR and Cheney's association with them. Even if it is 100% legitwhich I dont think it is, it still reeks of corruption. That alone should have been enough to take them out of the running for the contract.



But no one can do this as effectivly as our govt. There isnt a single govt run program that isnt burried in fraud and some programs actually have the cost of fraud added into the budget.



Exactly.



it sounds like you have a problem with the nature and definition of what a government is in general, not party policy.

[The12lber]

Haliburton and by association KBR have been proven to be intentionally overcharging. There have also been a number of rapes of female KBR employees by male KBR employees. In one of the cases in question the victim was ordered by KBR executives to be imprisoned in a cargo container for days under armed guard to keep the rape quiet. Contractors seem to think Iraq is the wild west, and to them it might as well be.

Rape and corruption. Sounds like what America's become under the Bush Adminstration. Its nice to be known in parts of the international community as the world's biggest exporter of fear and violence.

[Lucky DAWG]

Haliburton and by association KBR have been proven to be intentionally overcharging. There have also been a number of rapes of female KBR employees by male KBR employees. In one of the cases in question the victim was ordered by KBR executives to be imprisoned in a cargo container for days under armed guard to keep the rape quiet. Contractors seem to think Iraq is the wild west, and to them it might as well be.

Rape and corruption. Sounds like what America's become under the Bush Adminstration. Its nice to be known in parts of the international community as the world's biggest exporter of fear and violence.



You are so full of **** its not even funny.



America is not as badly viewed as you think, it is mostly in widely conservative countries for our morals and ideals, such as borderline fascist regimes in the middle east.


And since when were we not about that?



rapeing and assaulting of indians
slavery
brutal annexation of hawaii
Control in the carribean



don't act like this is a recent development and put it on Bush, the only reason you think it is, is because instead of reading a history book you decide to watch MSNBC all day. Congratulations now due to Television and the internet combining forces you get your BS spread faster.



I have no idea how someone can say something so blasphemous, i love America but we are by no means perfect; catch a clue and realize that this has been going on since our conception as a country; not to mention any other country that has ever been in the position of any sort of power in the world stage.

[The12lber]

You are so full of **** its not even funny.



America is not as badly viewed as you think, it is mostly in widely conservative countries for our morals and ideals, such as borderline fascist regimes in the middle east.

You're probably referring to our widely publicized enemy, Iran, seeing as how they're the only nation in the Middle East that isn't playing ball with us in some way/shape form. They are in fact a democracy. Other countries such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan which are allied with us are in fact dictatorships. Irony lolz?

And no, we've got a pretty negative Rep in Europe/Asia as well. And how do you think they feel about us in Iraq?

The only place they actually like us is Africa, probably because we give them our pocket change for food and medication.


And since when were we not about that?



rapeing and assaulting of indians
slavery
brutal annexation of hawaii
Control in the carribean
And women couldn't vote, blacks lived in an Apartheid like system for years after slavery, etc, etc.

Those things you mentioned? They all happened OVER A HUNDRED YEARS AGO.

You pulling up centuries old examples of injustice perpetrated by America to make it slightly more acceptable that these things occur now is pathetic.



don't act like this is a recent development and put it on Bush, the only reason you think it is, is because instead of reading a history book you decide to watch MSNBC all day. Congratulations now due to Television and the internet combining forces you get your BS spread faster.



I have no idea how someone can say something so blasphemous, i love America but we are by no means perfect; catch a clue and realize that this has been going on since our conception as a country; not to mention any other country that has ever been in the position of any sort of power in the world stage.

So, short version is.

I AM ACTUALLY NOT FULL OF ****, BUT I AM IN FACT CORRECT, AND THE ONLY DEFENSE YOU COULD OFFER UP TO JUSTIFY OUR CURRENT ACTIONS IS.

LOOK WE DID IT BEFORE A LONG TIME AGO SO NO BIGGY.

Also, I'm better educated on History than you will ever hope to be so don't accuse me of being misinformed based on your negative perceptions of MSNBC. I don't watch Network News, and even if I did you don't know that ****tard.

[Lucky DAWG]

So, short version is.

I AM ACTUALLY NOT FULL OF ****, BUT I AM IN FACT CORRECT, AND THE ONLY DEFENSE YOU COULD OFFER UP TO JUSTIFY OUR CURRENT ACTIONS IS.

LOOK WE DID IT BEFORE A LONG TIME AGO SO NO BIGGY.

Also, I'm better educated on History than you will ever hope to be so don't accuse me of being misinformed based on your negative perceptions of MSNBC. I don't watch Network News, and even if I did you don't know that ****tard.


no the short version is that what is going on now pales in comapirison to the past period.



Bush would have gotten flames if he didn't do anything, and would have gotten flamed (as he did) for doing something, its a lose lose situtation.




Between this and the other threads i've seen from you recently, you post some retarded ****

[truetoknow]

Yes he will.