Was there Al-Queda in Iraq before the US invasion?

[mad3nch1na]

Was there Al-Queda in Iraq before the US invasion?

Don't look it up or anything. Just post. There is a right answer.

This is in relation to the Obama-McCain attacks.

[thecrazyone]

those damn insurgents ate all the cereal

[SLOWLYbtngU]

no..at least no real proof.

They may be there now...They may have been there before...Who knows...But my answer is still.. NO.

[G35Cam]

Just a guess, I voted yes because i doubt they can form their group that large in a couple years.

[MistaCee]

Just a guess, I voted yes because i doubt they can form their group that large in a couple years.

I wouldnt doubt that. I voted no

[mad3nch1na]

So far the majority is right...

[Got Milk?]

where is the "I dont know WTF ur talking about" option.

[The Yousef]

negative...there hasn't been any evidence to support the contrary....we went to war under false pretenses (bush should be impeached for that..but the neoconservative evangelical system of government he has created won't let that happen)...now we have an another Al-Qaeda stronghold to contend with while we abandon Afghanistan...

[ChnkyLao]

the funny thing is we know where osama bin laden is

[soul]

negative...there hasn't been any evidence to support the contrary....we went to war under false pretenses (bush should be impeached for that..but the neoconservative evangelical system of government he has created won't let that happen)...now we have an another Al-Qaeda stronghold to contend with while we abandon Afghanistan...
brits n other allies are sittin in afgan

[Hulud]

the only f*cking question that matters in this debate is:

Why did we take most of our troops away from searching for Osama and 'liberate' Iraq?


yes saddam was a bad guy but we have more important things than him (aka Osama).

[mad3nch1na]

This poll was conducted after I saw this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JNEEEXKGiE&NR=1
I mean just read the comments, its like they thought Al-Queda was in Iraq before the US invasion!

FYI
Saddam despised terrorism, there were absolutely NO terrorist cells in Iraq during his "iron fist" rule. It was only true when the US invaded, this created a power vacuum mixed with Anti-America ideology with the already unpopular perception of the US in the Middle East.

But away, the sheer existence Al-Queda is still America's fault. If we didn't abandon Afghanistan after used them in the proxy war against the U.S.S.R. there would be no Al-Queda today. Instead of cutting and running, we should have invested our interests in bettering Afghanistan for bleeding the USSR out of money; ending the cold war.

In a sense this is kinda like Karma, we used Afghanistan to bleed the U.S.S.R. out to bankruptcy and dumped them when they were no use to us. Now they are doing the same they did to us as they did to the Soviets.

For every 1 dollar Bin Laden spends, the US has to spend 1,000,000. Bin Laden said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "As soon as the US declares victory over Al-Queda, I will send 2 Mujahideen to the furthest point East. They will plant a flag 'Al-Queda', and the US will be obliged to come"

Its sad when you think about it, because its true. It costs Bin Laden pretty much nothing to send a few guys out to start a "terrorist training camp", but for the US to pursue them, the US must spend Millions; sending air plane carriers, recon teams, risking American lives, etcetera...

Bin Laden stated that his goal is to bankrupt America, and as of now he is succeeding.
Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/index.html

Don't even get me started on Iran...
Its important to know why they hate us.

[SL65AMG]

where the hell did you get this information....? and who gives a flying **** about saddam and his opinions about terrorism..... its GENOCIDE and MASS murders thats the problem.

[SL65AMG]

Bin Laden stated that his goal is to bankrupt America, and as of now he is succeeding.
Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/index.html

Don't even get me started on Iran...
Its important to know why they hate us.


take the information you get from the mass-media with a grain of salt.... theyre the reason why theres so many stupid sheep.... i mean people.... in this country. its all fabricated or biased or flawed information. you are told what they want you to be told.... not necessarily whats actually happening

[TIGERJC]

where the hell did you get this information....? and who gives a flying **** about saddam and his opinions about terrorism..... its GENOCIDE and MASS murders thats the problem.
Do you think Our Gov't gives a sh.it about a Genocide happening on the other side of the world? Hell no

It comes down to U.S. interest and what will only benefit us (by us I mean the corrupt politicians).

[IDCoconut]

Al-Qaeda not in Iraq before US envasion....LOLOL

[Craigers2k]

negative...there hasn't been any evidence to support the contrary....we went to war under false pretenses (bush should be impeached for that..but the neoconservative evangelical system of government he has created won't let that happen)...now we have an another Al-Qaeda stronghold to contend with while we abandon Afghanistan...


The Guardian
February 6, 1999

Saddam link to Bin Laden

By Julian Borger

Saddam Hussein's regime has opened talks with Osama bin Laden, bringing closer the threat of a terrorist attack using chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, according to US intelligence sources and Iraqi opposition officials.

The key meeting took place in the Afghan mountains near Kandahar in late December. The Iraqi delegation was led by Farouk Hijazi, Baghdad's ambassador in Turkey and one of Saddam's most powerful secret policemen, who is thought to have offered Bin Laden asylum in Iraq.

News of the negotiations emerged in a week when the US attorney general, Janet Reno, warned the Senate that a terrorist attack involving weapons of mass destruction was a growing concern. "There's a threat, and it's real," Ms Reno said, adding that such weapons "are being considered for use."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...314700,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,314700,00.html)



Associated Press
February 13, 1999

Bin Laden reportedly leaves Afghanistan, whereabouts unknown

Osama bin Laden, the Saudi millionaire accused by the United States of plotting bomb attacks on two U.S. embassies in Africa, has left Afghanistan, Afghan sources said Saturday.

Taliban authorities in the militia's southern stronghold of Kandahar refused to either confirm or deny reports that bin Laden had left the country.

Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein has offered asylum to bin Laden, who openly supports Iraq against the Western powers.

Despite repeated demands from Washington, the Taliban refused to hand over bin Laden after the August 7 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, demanding proof of his involvement in terrorist activities.

The Taliban did promise that bin Laden would not use Afghanistan as a staging arena for terrorist activities.

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9...ghan.binladen/ (http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9902/13/afghan.binladen/)



Lets not forget, democrats felt the same way. To blame Bush for everything is truely ignorant.



“WE HAVE KNOWN FOR MANY YEARS THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN IS SEEKING AND DEVELOPING WMD’S”. - SEN. TED KENNEDY (D, MA) 9/27/2002

“I WILL BE VOTING TO GIVE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES THE AUTHORITY TO USE FORCE - IF NECESSARY - TO DISARM SADDAM HUSSEIN BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT A DEADLY ARSENAL OF WMD’S IN HIS HANDS IS A REAL AND GRAVE THREAT TO OUR SECURITY.” - SEN. JOHN F. KERRY (D, MA), 10/9/2002

“WE BEGIN WITH THE COMMON BELIEF THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN IS A TYRANT AND A THREAT TO THE PEACE AND STABILITY OF THE REGION. HE HAS IGNORED THE MANDATE OF THE UNITED NATIONS AND IS BUILDING WMD’S AND THE MEANS OF DELIVERING THEM.” - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI) 9/19/2002

“WE KNOW THAT HE HAS STORED SECRET SUPPLIES OF BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL WEAPONS THROUGHOUT HIS COUNTRY.”- AL GORE, 9/23/2002

“IRAQ’S SEARCH FOR WMD’S HAS PROVEN IMPOSSIBLE TO DETER AND WE SHOULD ASSUME THAT IT WILL CONTINUE FOR AS LONG AS SADDAM IS IN POWER.” - AL GORE, 9/23/2002

“THE LAST UN WEAPONS INSPECTORS LEFT IRAQ IN OCTOBER OF 1998. WE ARE CONFIDENT THAT SADDAM HUSSAIN RETAINS SOME STOCKPILES OF CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS, AND THAT HE HAS SINCE EMBARKED ON A CRASH COURSE TO BUILD UP HIS CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WARFARE CAPABILITIES. INTELLIGENCE REPORTS INDICATE THAT HE IS SEEKING NUCLEAR WEAPONS…” - SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D, WV), 10/3/2002

“THERE IS UNMISTAKABLE EVIDENCE THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN IS WORKING AGGRESSIVELY TO DEVELOP NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND WILL LIKELY HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS WITHIN THE NEXT FIVE YEARS… WE ALSO SHOULD REMEMBER WE HAVE ALWAYS UNDERESTIMATED THE PROGRESS SADDAM HAS MADE IN DEVELOPMENT OF WMD’S.”
- SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D, WV), 10/10/2002

“HE HAS SYSTEMATICALLY VIOLATED, OVER THE COURSE OF THE PAST 11 YEARS, EVERY SIGNIFICANT UN RESOLUTION THAT HAS DEMANDED THAT HE DISARM AND DESTROY HIS CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS, AND ANY NUCLEAR CAPACITY. THIS HE HAS REFUSED TO DO.”
- REP. HENRY WAXMAN (D, CA), 10/10/2002

“IN THE FOUR YEARS SINCE THE INSPECTORS LEFT, INTELLIGENCE REPORTS SHOW THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN HAS WORKED TO REBUILD HIS CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS STOCK, HIS MISSILE DELIVERY CAPABILITY, AND HIS NUCLEAR PROGRAM. HE HAS ALSO GIVEN AID, COMFORT, AND SANCTUARY TO TERRORISTS, INCLUDING AL QAEDA MEMBERS… IT IS CLEAR, HOWEVER, THAT IF LEFT UNCHECKED, SADDAM HUSSEIN WILL CONTINUE TO INCREASE HIS CAPACITY TO WAGE BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL WARFARE, AND WILL KEEP TRYING TO DEVELOP NUCLEAR WEAPONS.”
- SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D, NY), 10/10/2002

“WE ARE IN POSSESSION OF WHAT I THINK TO BE COMPELLING EVIDENCE THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN HAS, AND HAS HAD FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, A DEVELOPING CAPACITY FOR THE PRODUCTION AND STORAGE OF WMD’S.”
- SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D, FL), 12/8/2002

“WITHOUT QUESTION, WE NEED TO DISARM SADDAM HUSSEIN. HE IS A BRUTAL, MURDEROUS DICTATOR, LEADING AN OPPRESSIVE REGIME… HE PRESENTS A PARTICULARLY GRIEVOUS THREAT BECAUSE HE IS SO CONSISTENTLY PRONE TO MISCALCULATION … AND NOW HE IS MISCALCULATING AMERICA’S RESPONSE TO HIS CONTINUED DECEIT AND HIS CONSISTENT GRASP FOR WMD’S … SO THE THREAT OF SADDAM HUSSEIN WITH WMD’S IS REAL”.
- SEN. JOHN. F. KERRY (D, MA), 1/23/2003

“ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, WE ARE DETERMINED TO DENY IRAQ THE CAPACITY TO DEVELOP WMD’S AND THE MISSILES TO DELIVER THEM. THAT IS OUR BOTTOM LINE”
- PRESIDENT CLINTON, FEB 4, 1998

“IF SADDAM REJECTS PEACE AND WE HAVE TO USE FORCE, OUR PURPOSE IS CLEAR. WE WANT TO SERIOUSLY DIMINISH THE THREAT POSED BY IRAQ’S WMD PROGRAM.”
- PRESIDENT CLINTON, FEB. 17, 1998

“IRAQ IS A LONG WAY FROM (HERE), BUT WHAT HAPPENS THERE MATTERS A GREAT DEAL HERE. FOR THE RISKS THAT THE LEADERS OF A ROGUE STATE WILL USE NUCLEAR, CHEMICAL OR BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS AGAINST US OR OUR ALLIES IS THE GREATEST SECURITY THREAT WE FACE.”
- MADELINE ALBRIGHT, FEB 18, 1998

“HE WILL USE THOSE WMD’S AGAIN, AS HE HAS TEN TIMES SINCE 1983.”
-SANDY BERGER, CLINTON NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, 2/18/98

“(WE) URGE YOU, AFTER CONSULTING WITH CONGRESS, AND CONSISTENT WITH THE U.S. CONSTITUTION AND LAWS, TO TAKE NECESSARY ACTIONS (INCLUDING, IF APPROPRIATE, AIR AND MISSILE STRIKES ON SUSPECT IRAQI SITES) TO RESPOND EFFECTIVELY TO THE THREAT POSED BY IRAQ’S REFUSAL TO END ITS WMD’S PROGRAM.”
-LETTER TO PRESIDENT CLINTON, SIGNED BY SENATORS CARL LEVIN, TOM DASCHLE, JOHN KERRY, AND OTHER DEMOCRATS OCT. 9, 1998

“SADDAM HUSSEIN HAS BEEN ENGAGED IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF WMD TECHNOLOGY WHICH IS A THREAT TO COUNTRIES IN THE REGION AND HE HAS MADE A MOCKERY OF THE WEAPONS INSPECTION PROCESS.”
- REP. NANCY PELOSI (D, CA) DEC 16, 1998

“HUSSEIN HAS ….CHOSEN TO SPEND HIS MONEY ON BUILDING WMD’S AND PALACES FOR HIS CRONIES.”
- MADELINE ALBRIGHT, CLINTON SECRETARY OF STATE, 11/10/99

“THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT….SADDAM HUSSEIN HAS INVIGORATED HIS WEAPONS PROGRAMS. REPORTS INDICATE THAT BIOLOGICAL, CHEMICAL AND NUCLEAR PROGRAMS CONTINUE APACE AND MAY BE BACK TO PRE-GULF WAR STATUS. IN ADDITION, SADDAM CONTINUES TO REDEFINE DELIVERY SYSTEMS AND IS DOUBTLESS USING THE COVER OF ILLICIT MISSILE PROGRAMS TO DEVELOP LONGER-RANGE MISSILES THAT WILL THREATEN THE U.S. AND OUR ALLIES.”
- LETTER TO PRESIDENT BUSH, SIGNED BY SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D, FL) AND OTHERS, 12/5/2001

[yunglaosta]

i believe there was Al-Queda before...but they really didnt have a name thats just my take on it

[Dr.G35]

This poll was conducted after I saw this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JNEEEXKGiE&NR=1
I mean just read the comments, its like they thought Al-Queda was in Iraq before the US invasion!

FYI
Saddam despised terrorism, there were absolutely NO terrorist cells in Iraq during his "iron fist" rule. It was only true when the US invaded, this created a power vacuum mixed with Anti-America ideology with the already unpopular perception of the US in the Middle East.

But away, the sheer existence Al-Queda is still America's fault. If we didn't abandon Afghanistan after used them in the proxy war against the U.S.S.R. there would be no Al-Queda today. Instead of cutting and running, we should have invested our interests in bettering Afghanistan for bleeding the USSR out of money; ending the cold war.

In a sense this is kinda like Karma, we used Afghanistan to bleed the U.S.S.R. out to bankruptcy and dumped them when they were no use to us. Now they are doing the same they did to us as they did to the Soviets.

For every 1 dollar Bin Laden spends, the US has to spend 1,000,000. Bin Laden said, and I'm paraphrasing here, "As soon as the US declares victory over Al-Queda, I will send 2 Mujahideen to the furthest point East. They will plant a flag 'Al-Queda', and the US will be obliged to come"

Its sad when you think about it, because its true. It costs Bin Laden pretty much nothing to send a few guys out to start a "terrorist training camp", but for the US to pursue them, the US must spend Millions; sending air plane carriers, recon teams, risking American lives, etcetera...

Bin Laden stated that his goal is to bankrupt America, and as of now he is succeeding.
Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/01/binladen.tape/index.html

Don't even get me started on Iran...
Its important to know why they hate us.

but where is he now? he is in a **** hole somewhere up in the mountains. pretty sad when you have millions of dollars and have to wipe yourself with what you wear.

[Dr.G35]

Do you think Our Gov't gives a sh.it about a Genocide happening on the other side of the world? Hell no

It comes down to U.S. interest and what will only benefit us (by us I mean the corrupt politicians).

ofcourse they give a **** about genocide in other countries, and your right we do have interest with what benefits us. you make that sound like its a bad thing, wouldn't you do something that would benefit yourself while helping someone else out? Come on, President Bush gets his information from somewhere (CIA). He doesn't pull **** out of his ass and goes gung ho on it. This is why I feel bad about good people running for president, by the time they get out of their presidency, they reputation has been seriously hurt.

[man]

LOL, conspiracy theories crack me up

[TIGERJC]

ofcourse they give a **** about genocide in other countries :lmfao: Doesn't matter how many ppl are murdered, No gov't will step in unless it benefits them (Gov't officials)

wouldn't you do something that would benefit yourself while helping someone else out Yes, but I can not say the same about Gov't

Come on, President Bush gets his information from somewhere (CIA). He doesn't pull **** out of his ass and goes gung ho on it.
I don't think I said anything about Bush

This is why I feel bad about good people running for president No such thing, not until money no longer determines who leads this country

[Dr.G35]

:lmfao: Doesn't matter how many ppl are murdered, No gov't will step in unless it benefits them (Gov't officials)
Yes, but I can not say the same about Gov't
wwII perhaps?

I don't think I said anything about Bush
No such thing, not until money no longer determines who leads this country
this wasnt directed to you, and your right you have to have HUGE money to be a president
still stand by my answers

[DrivenMind]

yea... boy we sure liberated them...

if by liberated, you mean bombed the **** out of the landscape they call home, and made their daily lives even more difficult.

We don't have **** on Bin Laden, and we never will. He's an entity that was created purely to remind the American people that we have something to fear. From what I can tell there's been nothing but Bull**** coming out of the Bush administration, and 9/11 is no exception.

I used to not know where I stood on this issue, but I now firmly believe that our president, and his shady cohorts had far more to do with the greatest terrorist attacks ever seen in the modern world, than Bin Laden ever did.

He's the conceptual ghost, that keeps conservative, and uneducated Americans scared enough to allow something like the Patriot Act to be passed.

If McCain, or any other war mongering piece of ****, uber conservative republican is elected I will be dropping whatever I am doing, and leaving this ****ing country until our leaders can facilitate the change necessary, to once again make America a role model for the rest of the civilized, and educated world.

Pardon my apparent extremist view point, but I think it's disgusting that so much of what the corrupt Bush administration has already done, has gone so unchallenged. It's as though within this country, nobody even cares, or wants to admit that 9/11 doesn't make any ****ing sense.

[Craigers2k]

yea... boy we sure liberated them...

if by liberated, you mean bombed the **** out of the landscape they call home, and made their daily lives even more difficult.

We don't have **** on Bin Laden, and we never will. He's an entity that was created purely to remind the American people that we have something to fear. From what I can tell there's been nothing but Bull**** coming out of the Bush administration, and 9/11 is no exception.

I used to not know where I stood on this issue, but I now firmly believe that our president, and his shady cohorts had far more to do with the greatest terrorist attacks ever seen in the modern world, than Bin Laden ever did.

He's the conceptual ghost, that keeps conservative, and uneducated Americans scared enough to allow something like the Patriot Act to be passed.

If McCain, or any other war mongering piece of ****, uber conservative republican is elected I will be dropping whatever I am doing, and leaving this ****ing country until our leaders can facilitate the change necessary, to once again make America a role model for the rest of the civilized, and educated world.

Pardon my apparent extremist view point, but I think it's disgusting that so much of what the corrupt Bush administration has already done, has gone so unchallenged. It's as though within this country, nobody even cares, or wants to admit that 9/11 doesn't make any ****ing sense.

Wow, I am actually now considering a vote for McCain instead of Paul.

[DrivenMind]

Sadam did violate human rights, and he rightly should have been tried for it.

But America has no right to declare war, or murder people under false pretenses.
If they want to keep slaughtering each other in the names of their respective religions, they have every right to do so. But we don't have the right to declare war, simply because we want to protect, or be closer to an asset upon which this country depends.

[DrivenMind]

Wow, I am actually now considering a vote for McCain instead of Paul.

Paul's been out of the race.

Which really sucks, the man has some great ideas.

[Dr.G35]

Paul's been out of the race.

Which really sucks, the man has some great ideas.

Are you packing yet?

[DrivenMind]

Not yet... as even if McCain were elected, he'd probably die in office shortly there after anyway. Plus I still have faith in the big O.

[95alty]

They Were..

[umairejaz]

I think it's disgusting that so much of what the corrupt Bush administration has already done, has gone so unchallenged. It's as though within this country, nobody even cares, or wants to admit that 9/11 doesn't make any ****ing sense.


qft, +1. I share this oppinion.

[BanginJimmy]

I swear, some people spend way too much time watching Micheal Moore movies and not paying attention to reality.

1. If we went to Iraq for oil, why are prices so high? Oh yea I remember now, wall street controls oil prices, not the president.

2. Why would anyone NOT on welfare vote for a democrat? Dont they know that dependence on govt is not a good thing?



back on subject.

Al-Queda was not in Iraq before the police action. Al-Queda came after the the Iraqi army was steamrolled.

back off subject.

The answer to why we havent found Bin Laden yet is simple. All you need to do is look at the terrain and know why. Then you add in the 100's of miles of caves Al-Queda has mapped out and its nearly impossible to find anyone. You could have 10k troops per square mile in that country and not find a soul.

And before anyone asks, yes I have been to Afghanistan, and I have been in those mountians. Here is a pic of Bagram Air Base.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/afghanistan/images/bagram-af_020304_25.jpg

[mad3nch1na]

Oh plllease, don't call me a sheep. I know whats going on, if you knew what's good for you, you should stop fighting and do as I do. BECOME THE ELITE, RULE OVER THE POPULUS, JOIN US!
I mean do you REALLY wanna just live a "free" life when and be "average" or would you rather aspire to become the upper class, to become the rulers, to dominate over everyone else. The real conspiracy is the fact that you actually don't like the elite. Learn to love them and you will be favored. **** every one else, do whats best for you, you cant make every one happy. There will always be poor people, there will always be rich people. There will always be people with power, there will always be people with out. America is a sinking ship, better jump off the fail boat before it sinks.

Yep.

[DrivenMind]

You need to wake up Dr.G35.

Bush has not only already eliminated the borders between Canada, Mexico, and the US; but given himself dictatorial powers in a "state of emergency", a state of emergency which doesn't have to be defined by congress.

You can quote the propaganda puppets all you want, but the fact of the matter is Osama Bin Laden is, always has been, and was always intended to be a phantom threat.

[DrivenMind]

Oh plllease, don't call me a sheep. I know whats going on, if you knew what's good for you, you should stop fighting and do as I do. BECOME THE ELITE, RULE OVER THE POPULUS, JOIN US!
I mean do you REALLY wanna just live a "free" life when and be "average" or would you rather aspire to become the upper class, to become the rulers, to dominate over everyone else. The real conspiracy is the fact that you actually don't like the elite. Learn to love them and you will be favored. **** every one else, do whats best for you, you cant make every one happy. There will always be poor people, there will always be rich people. There will always be people with power, there will always be people with out. America is a sinking ship, better jump off the fail boat before it sinks.

Yep.

You're not a sheep, you're a simply a traitor in the purest sense of the word.

Your right, we could suck ****, and kiss ass, and hope that we don't get walked all over; but along time ago a lot of smart people did a lot of fighting, and a whole lot of dying so we could have something called the constitution.

You're a coward if you're unwilling to fight for it, and what it means to this country.

[tony]

I swear, some people spend way too much time watching Micheal Moore movies and not paying attention to reality.

1. If we went to Iraq for oil, why are prices so high? Oh yea I remember now, wall street controls oil prices, not the president.

2. Why would anyone NOT on welfare vote for a democrat? Dont they know that dependence on govt is not a good thing?



back on subject.

Al-Queda was not in Iraq before the police action. Al-Queda came after the the Iraqi army was steamrolled.

back off subject.

The answer to why we havent found Bin Laden yet is simple. All you need to do is look at the terrain and know why. Then you add in the 100's of miles of caves Al-Queda has mapped out and its nearly impossible to find anyone. You could have 10k troops per square mile in that country and not find a soul.

And before anyone asks, yes I have been to Afghanistan, and I have been in those mountians. Here is a pic of Bagram Air Base.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/afghanistan/images/bagram-af_020304_25.jpg

I can show you more substancial evidence to show that we went into Iraq due to oil than anyone can show that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

The cost of oil has risen because demand has gone up.. contrary to belief the U.S has no control over how much we pay at the pump. We are dependent on OPEC and we are at their mercy.

By the way a good portion of Al Qaeda is in Pakistan, which is where Bin Laden is believed to have been as well. We recently killed Al Qaeda's #3 official in Pakistan..

[BanginJimmy]

I can show you more substancial evidence to show that we went into Iraq due to oil than anyone can show that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

The cost of oil has risen because demand has gone up.. contrary to belief the U.S has no control over how much we pay at the pump. We are dependent on OPEC and we are at their mercy.

By the way a good portion of Al Qaeda is in Pakistan, which is where Bin Laden is believed to have been as well. We recently killed Al Qaeda's #3 official in Pakistan..

1. I would lvoe to see this evidence

2. OPEC does have some control, but just as much control is held by the futures traders on wall street.

3. I know there is alot of activity in Pakistan. My squadron was giving air support to the border control points on a daily basis. The border with pakistan is only about 40 miles from Bagram.

[tony]

1. I would lvoe to see this evidence



Just off the top of my head and this doesn't even dip into what I have researched, this is just logic.

Can you say yes to these two question; As long as there are scarce resources there will be war.

Is oil a highly valued scarce resource?

There are plenty of countries with dictators, we happen to choose the one that is the second largest oil producer in the world. Furthermore our invasion in Iraq came on the heels of Sadam announcing that he would be switching his oil reserves from the U.S dollar to Euro's.. I don't necessarily see that as just a coincidence since the value of the dollar is heavily backed by oil. By switching the second largest oil reserve in the world to Euro's the value of the dollar drops dramatically.

Now since we have invaded Iraq those reserves remain in dollars AND bring in about $9 Billion in revenue a month.. of which nobody can account for. There is ZERO intelligence that can place "WMD's" in Iraq, Saddam had no affiliation with Al Qaeda and actually held the same position we did. Again this is just off the top of my head without any in depth analysis of the situation.

Want to know the other countries that have considered switching oil reserves from the Dollar? Venezuela, Iran, and I believe China.. either China or Russia but amazingly all of these countries suddenly have a conflict with the U.S, is that coincidence as well? Iran is on the list big time although Iran was an ally of ours going into Afghanistan after the Taliban.

At this point, 5 years, $400 Billion dollars and 4000 brave soldiers gone there is no other logical answer as to why we use a great portion of our military force to stay in Iraq. It doesn't benefit us in any way BUT an U.S friendly government in Iraq.

[BanginJimmy]

There are plenty of countries with dictators, we happen to choose the one that is the second largest oil producer in the world. Furthermore our invasion in Iraq came on the heels of Sadam announcing that he would be switching his oil reserves from the U.S dollar to Euro's.. I don't necessarily see that as just a coincidence since the value of the dollar is heavily backed by oil. By switching the second largest oil reserve in the world to Euro's the value of the dollar drops dramatically.

I have to research this some more to find exact dates, but I dont believe Iraq was "allowed" to sell their oil on the open market by UN trade sanctions so changing it to Euros would do them no good.


Now since we have invaded Iraq those reserves remain in
dollars AND bring in about $9 Billion in revenue a month.. of which nobody can account for.

This is the first I've heard of the 9B in unaccounted for revenue. Do you have a link to this info. Also who is collecting this revenue? I remember something from a few years ago about the US using some money from Iraqi oil to pay some of the costs of the war.


There is ZERO intelligence that can place "WMD's" in Iraq, Saddam had no affiliation with Al Qaeda and actually held the same position we did. Again this is just off the top of my head without any in depth analysis of the situation.

Iraq openly funded several terrorist groups, but would not allow them to operate within the Iraqi borders. He was also working with Al-Queda to aquire nuke material. I actually saw on another forum today that someone said Sadaam already had nuke material and sarin gas warheads, but I havent researched it yet.


Want to know the other countries that have considered switching oil reserves from the Dollar? Venezuela, Iran, and I believe China.. either China or Russia but amazingly all of these countries suddenly have a conflict with the U.S, is that coincidence as well?

Iran is on the list big time although Iran was an ally of ours going into Afghanistan after the Taliban.

the US has not had formal relations with Iran since the early 80's. They are openly anti american and definately NOT allies now, or even in 01.

Hugo Chavez is openly anti American and we have had issues with him since before 9/11. The only difference now is that it makes the news.

Russia has been a fair weather ally for the last 10 years. They still favor the German and French though and are as closet anti american as they are.



At this point, 5 years, $400 Billion dollars and 4000 brave soldiers gone there is no other logical answer as to why we use a great portion of our military force to stay in Iraq. It doesn't benefit us in any way BUT an U.S friendly government in Iraq.

Only about 3600 Americans dead to combat. The other 800 or so killed themselves doing something stupid.

Stability in that region is most definately beneficial to the US for the same reasons you stated above. Oil runs countries and they are sitting on alot of it.

[95alty]

Jimmy... you are right... HOO fukn RAH... what branch?

[tony]

I have to research this some more to find exact dates, but I dont believe Iraq was "allowed" to sell their oil on the open market by UN trade sanctions so changing it to Euros would do them no good.


http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,998512,00.html

Dated in 2000



This is the first I've heard of the 9B in unaccounted for revenue. Do you have a link to this info. Also who is collecting this revenue? I remember something from a few years ago about the US using some money from Iraqi oil to pay some of the costs of the war.


http://www.thebostonchannel.com/helenthomas/4228758/detail.html



Iraq openly funded several terrorist groups, but would not allow them to operate within the Iraqi borders. He was also working with Al-Queda to aquire nuke material. I actually saw on another forum today that someone said Sadaam already had nuke material and sarin gas warheads, but I havent researched it yet.

Bin Laden reached out to Saddam in 96 and Saddam refused. This info was founded in the 9/11 Commission's investigation.. our very own investigation that no ties between Iraq and Al Qaeda was ever established. There was communication but no collaborative effort.


the US has not had formal relations with Iran since the early 80's. They are openly anti american and definately NOT allies now, or even in 01.

Hugo Chavez is openly anti American and we have had issues with him since before 9/11. The only difference now is that it makes the news.

Russia has been a fair weather ally for the last 10 years. They still favor the German and French though and are as closet anti american as they are.

Iraq fought alongside the U.S in Afghanistan hunting the the Taliban, those are pretty formal relations and an ally.

Chavez donated millions to New Orleans when Katrina hit and Venezuela is the 3rd largest oil supplier to the U.S, I doubt we want to piss them off since we need them just as much if not more than they need us.





Only about 3600 Americans dead to combat. The other 800 or so killed themselves doing something stupid.

Stability in that region is most definately beneficial to the US for the same reasons you stated above. Oil runs countries and they are sitting on alot of it.

Only 3600? 1 life is more than what should have been sacrificed for this war. Thousands wounded and all for what? So we can control their oil? Put a U.S friendly government in place? That is quite a sacrifice.. I'd off myself too if I couldn't see my son every day stepping over dead bodies afraid to be blown up.

[highspeed]

im going to butt in for a min right quick. i understand both sides and each side has a good point. im currently training to go over to Iraq at an undisclosed location. i have been previleged to the latest information and the most unbiased. it is amazing what the media had done to this war. all the media's focus is on how much it cost and how negative the war is. I will try to put this in some kind of perspective. As of right now the U.S. and its allies have appoximately 60k detainees in iraq alone. Of that at least 3/4 of them want to harm America or westerners. What people don't see is the amound of people who want America there to help stabilize the government and rid the country of insurgents( not just al queda, there are so many terrorist groups over there .....don't get them mixed up with al queda). Right now the war is really more in the stability operation stage. Winning the hearts and minds of the people and helping them understand that we are there for help not to hurt. Im not muslim but i have alot of respect for those that are. they are one of the most devote religions in the world, it really takes alot of discipline. But some people use the Name of Allah(which in english simply means God) to bring a holy war against the evil westerners. I wish i could show you what young kids are taught about america and western society.....it would make you sick......when we were all kids we would learn about history and how to speak.....but these kids get handed an AK47 and a loaded mag. To try to understand what we are doing over there would me futile unless you are there and you see what happens there daily........the media shows half the story.....so if you take into all the media talk....well then the war is lost. Simply put....we are fighting for the people who can't fight for themselves. I know that I will get flamed for this, and i wish i could share the information that i get with you but i can't because of security reasons. Just take it from me.....we are doing good.......even if you arent for the war.....we are doing some good .

[blaknoize]

I saw Bin-Laden in a Burgundy '88 Honda Accord with a riced out wing and 17's on that bish

[mad3nch1na]

You're not a sheep, you're a simply a traitor in the purest sense of the word.

Your right, we could suck ****, and kiss ass, and hope that we don't get walked all over; but along time ago a lot of smart people did a lot of fighting, and a whole lot of dying so we could have something called the constitution.

You're a coward if you're unwilling to fight for it, and what it means to this country.
Oh please coward my ass, I'm brave enough to admit that I KNOW, and yet state my position. All that matters is my future, my life, and my loved ones. Every one can go **** them selves fore all I care. The decision is theirs to make, the consequences are theirs to bear.

Be smart man, think about it... if 80% were to be "exterminated", who are they gona kill? *HINT HINT* Sure as hell won't be the rich people.

In my judgement I am in a win-win situation. If the 80% of the people get exterminated, I won't be one of them. And if nothing happens, good for me, good for them.

If I were you I would go to the golf club and make some friends. You can't beat them. They run the show, they run the country, they can't be beat.

Is it really so bad? really is it? If the "elitists" do take over, you probably won't die. Your life probably will get better in terms of standard if living and happiness. Your kids would get a better education, if you choose to do so. And you would probably live longer.

The conspiracy theorys are making it worse than it seems. And **** the US Constitution, its already shreded to bits by the Patriot Act and I don't recall the last time my 4th Ammendment rights were respected. This country was founded by racist biggots, and according to your "conspiracies" you probably believe the founding fathers were in some "EVIL MASONIC" cult. Granted most of them were masons, that aside, they were racist biggots as well.

If being patriotic means loving America for what it is: Slavery of Africans, Genocide of Natives, Rape, Torture, and Bush; then I'd rather not. The American dream is dead, meritocracy is dead, and America is dying.

[BanginJimmy]

Oh please coward my ass, I'm brave enough to admit that I KNOW, and yet state my position. All that matters is my future, my life, and my loved ones. Every one can go **** them selves fore all I care. The decision is theirs to make, the consequences are theirs to bear.

and if the founding fathers were the cowards you are then we would still be under british rule. All of them were wealthy men that could have easily taken the stance you take and only grown in wealth.


Be smart man, think about it... if 80% were to be "exterminated", who are they gona kill? *HINT HINT* Sure as hell won't be the rich people.

most of the people killed in the trade centers were upper middle class and upper class. Still think it's only going to be the bottom 80%?


The conspiracy theorys are making it worse than it seems. And **** the US Constitution, its already shreded to bits by the Patriot Act and I don't recall the last time my 4th Ammendment rights were respected.

you probably dont know the last time they were disrespected either. When was the last time the cops searched your home wihtout a warrant?



If being patriotic means loving America for what it is: Slavery of Africans, Genocide of Natives, Rape, Torture, and Bush; then I'd rather not. The American dream is dead, meritocracy is dead, and America is dying.

what state still allows slavery?

I can go along with the genocide of the indians. We were extremely expansionist at that point and we also looked down on them. It was an embarassing period, but at the same time I bet you cant name a single country that does not have a period that was at least as bad as that.

Who is being raped and tortured with govt approval?

Bush isnt the problem. Congress is the problem.

how is meritocracy dead? If you work hard in school, then your job you will live a sucessful life. If you dont work hard in school and your job you will live day to day hating your life.
Also if you dont like your American freedoms, you are always welcome to leave. 1 more freedom you ahve is one to leave.

[mad3nch1na]

and if the founding fathers were the cowards you are then we would still be under british rule. All of them were wealthy men that could have easily taken the stance you take and only grown in wealth.
Out of context, I never called the founding fathers cowards. Although the British are superior to the US as of now. The Colonies was just being a *****, and decided to rebel. You make British rule sound like hell, when infact it was just an issue of taxation. Taxes are way worse now, I don't see a rebellion.



most of the people killed in the trade centers were upper middle class and upper class. Still think it's only going to be the bottom 80%?
The WTC collapse was not controlled, in the sense of "who dies". Extermination will. Infact most of the people in the WTC were NOT killed, if it were a normal day, with normal ammounts of employees and visitors the death toll would have been 10,000+
In a one word answer: Yes

you probably dont know the last time they were disrespected either. When was the last time the cops searched your home wihtout a warrant?


4th ammendment protects you from unlawful searches; I never stated that my residence was illegaly searched.

what state still allows slavery?

I can go along with the genocide of the indians. We were extremely expansionist at that point and we also looked down on them. It was an embarassing period, but at the same time I bet you cant name a single country that does not have a period that was at least as bad as that.

Who is being raped and tortured with govt approval?

Bush isnt the problem. Congress is the problem.

how is meritocracy dead? If you work hard in school, then your job you will live a sucessful life. If you dont work hard in school and your job you will live day to day hating your life.
Also if you dont like your American freedoms, you are always welcome to leave. 1 more freedom you ahve is one to leave.
Every state had, slavery at one point in time. And the current prison system with disproportionate prosicution rates is in a sense, slavery. America was built on slavery, what you see today is only the result.

Lots of people are and were raped. American Indians, African slaves, Mexican women, college girls, the list goes on and on.

Torture? This one is too easy:waterboarding.
We bitched about how the Japanese used water boarding on American POWs and how it was a "war crime", and yet it goes on with the aproval of the government. So much for cruel and unusual punishment. George Bush might as well take the constitution and wipe his ass with it.

Meritocracy is dead. I have read many books on this, in particular, for your further education look for "The Meritocracy Myth". In brief summary; Meritocracy is dead, because of inheretance, sexism, racism, who you know, your genetics, and your attractiveness.

All this can be proven time and time again, rich tend to stay rich. Women make less than men. Whites make more than blacks. Who you know is more important than what you know. Tall people land higher roles than short people. Attractive people get further in life.

You don't think its dead cause you're probably white. When you're white the sky's the limit. When you're black the limit is the sky. Sadly enough.

All you guys that are disagreeing with me are missing my point. It does not matter if you are disagreeing with me, as long as you recognize all the points I am talking about, take them in to consideration, and utilize them to your advantage! What matters is what you DO with the information presented. I am not trying to spew hatred or anti-American sentimism. But when people call me un-American it is really a misnomer. I like the core values of America but in America we live in today, those are buried behind thick layers of crust.


Also if you dont like your American freedoms, you are always welcome to leave. 1 more freedom you ahve is one to leave.
I like American freedoms, like having to freedom to not be searched, or the freedom to say what I want, or the freedom of doing what I want when I want. But bear in mind, these freedoms are Universal in most first and second world countries! America is not so special any more. I like America, but I just like other countries more. Considering most most American people work 40hours a week or more with less than 3 weeksof unpaid vacation if you're lucky; compared to employess residing in the EU, it is ILLEGAL to work more than 40 hours a week, and it is also ILLEGAL to have less than 1 month minimal paid vacation.

People in this country are so backwards and brainwashed, the inteligence of the populus baffles me. When you're this dumb, you not only deserve to be brainwashed, but to be mandatory, just look at the current president and bear in mind how he came to office. (Not in refrence to you directly)

[redrumracer]

yes i do believe they were and

yea... boy we sure liberated them...
If McCain, or any other war mongering piece of ****, uber conservative republican is elected I will be dropping whatever I am doing, and leaving this ****ing country until our leaders can facilitate the change necessary, to once again make America a role model for the rest of the civilized, and educated world.
i call bull**** on that

[BanginJimmy]

Although the British are superior to the US as of now. The Colonies was just being a *****, and decided to rebel. You make British rule sound like hell, when infact it was just an issue of taxation. Taxes are way worse now, I don't see a rebellion.

how are the British superior?

actually there is a rebellion of sorts, it just isnt being done with guns now. And I agre, taxation was the main reason we rebelled against the British, but it went further than that. It was taxation without representation. Basicly the vast minority of colonists were sick of the tax laws that they had no say in. Its happening again too with the outlandish taxes we pay and the politicians that exploit the uneducated. That why I am a supporter of the fairtax.





4th ammendment protects you from unlawful searches; I never stated that my residence was illegaly searched.

so how are your 4th amerndment rights being violated? Dont bother saying the patriot act either. As much as I hate that law I have enough common sense to know I wont be one of the ones that strike their curiosity and unless you make alot of overseas calls with certian key words you wont be either.


Every state had, slavery at one point in time. And the current prison system with disproportionate prosicution rates is in a sense, slavery. America was built on slavery, what you see today is only the result.

yes evey state had slavery into the early 1800's. There was VERY little above the mason dixon line after about 1820 though.

More blacks goto jail because more blacks commit crimes. I'll have to look it up because I dont have my criminal justice book anymore, but whites who goto trial have a higher conviction rate than blacks do. Most of the people charged with a crime, black,white and everything else, dont goto trial. Most are plea deals for shorter sentences.
How is it slavery when they goto jail after committing a crime? Sounds more like punishment to me. Also dont forget that if they behave in prison they can work jobs and get paid for it. Isnt that the opposite of slavey?

And I dont see what a practice that ended nearly 150 years ago has to do with today. Is there still racism? yes, but there are black racists too and the number of racists that are in a position of any power is so small that its pointless to consider.


Lots of people are and were raped. American Indians, African slaves, Mexican women, college girls, the list goes on and on.

American indians - happened over 100 years ago, time to move on

Slaves - ended nearly 150 years ago, time to move on

Mexican women - probably happened, but it was nearly 200 years ago

college girls - happens everyday, not the govt's fault


Torture? This one is too easy:waterboarding.
We bitched about how the Japanese used water boarding on American POWs and how it was a "war crime", and yet it goes on with the aproval of the government. So much for cruel and unusual punishment. George Bush might as well take the constitution and wipe his ass with it.

Bill of rights only applies to US citizens. Also according to the Geneva conventions rules of war each of them could be summerially executed for not being in uniform during armed conflict.

Jap's also did much worse than waterboarding. One of their favorites was bamboo under the fingernails.


Meritocracy is dead. I have read many books on this, in particular, for your further education look for "The Meritocracy Myth". In brief summary; Meritocracy is dead, because of inheretance, sexism, racism, who you know, your genetics, and your attractiveness.

Like all class systems it incorporates 1 particular trait of a caste system. Those that are born to the upper class have an advantage on those born to lower and middle classes. They also tend to have greater educational oppertunities which keeps the cycle moving. We still have a meritocracy though. Just because we dont move from poverty to wealthy in 1 generation on a regular basis you can improve you standing in society in a single generation. My cousin is a great example of it. She grew up in the lowest rungs of the middle class. She worked hard in school and received a schlorship to DePaul University where she studied English with a minor in pre law. Grad from there on the deans list and received a schlorship to Northwestern University where she again grad on the dean's list and reveived her masters in tax law. She is now working with a company or firm in Manhattan with a sign on bonus large enough for her to BUY a 2 floor condo in Manhattan.


All this can be proven time and time again, rich tend to stay rich. Women make less than men. Whites make more than blacks. Who you know is more important than what you know. Tall people land higher roles than short people. Attractive people get further in life.

rich do tend to stay rich. They also tend to have a better education which may be why they tend to stay rich. Women and minorities do tend to make less money, but that gap is closing quickly.


I like the core values of America but in America we live in today, those are buried behind thick layers of crust.

This I agree with 100%. I also think alot of that is because of liberals and politicans who are owned by lobbiests.



Considering most most American people work 40hours a week or more with less than 3 weeksof unpaid vacation if you're lucky; compared to employess residing in the EU, it is ILLEGAL to work more than 40 hours a week, and it is also ILLEGAL to have less than 1 month minimal paid vacation.

Its a known fact that the average American will work more hours per year than a citizen of any other country in the world, to include the communist countries.


People in this country are so backwards and brainwashed, the inteligence of the populus baffles me. When you're this dumb, you not only deserve to be brainwashed, but to be mandatory, just look at the current president and bear in mind how he came to office. (Not in refrence to you directly)

He came to office becuse he won the beauty contest, then stayed in office after he won it again. The president also gets the credit and blame for alot more than he should. Congress is really the ones that make the decisions. The president is just the face of the nation, not the brains so to speak.

And you are right, American people are some of the dumbest in the 1st world.

[mad3nch1na]

My 4th amendments extends to illegal vehicular searches, which is considered an extension of your home.

Just because slavery and extermination of Indians were elements of the past, does not mean that it does not affect us presently. Slaves were never intended to be made citizens of the United States. The government decided that sending ALL of the slaves to Liberia was too expensive, so they chose to keep them in the United States, but never to have full citizenship. Although the word slave does not appear a single time in the US constitution, it did contain that word in previous versions; it was removed for strategic reasons. Past and present legislature are writen with racist undertones, with out actually using inflamitory words that indicate race. There were more black politicians during post-antebellum reconstruction era than there are now. America was a slave nation longer than it is a free nation.

For example there are more white murderers than black murderers, but more blacks are sentenced to death than white murderers. Same with drugs, white people do WAAAY more drugs than black people, yet black people are persicuted more often.

It is all in the media, it has the power to make to make you hate or to make you love.

I agree with you on the issue about how Bush won the presidency. It was similar to the Nixon-JFK trial when his image, not his credentials won it for him. This is another shining example of how meritocracy is dead. A C-student that becomes president. And it is true that the rich tend to stay rich, because most billionares are not self made, but have gained wealth from inheritance.

I'm not saying that you should'nt work hard and to just give up if you are not already rich. But to recognize these factors and take them in to account. I think the point of the book is to say that the conventional idea of meritocracy; the idea of hard work will pay off, is slightly skewed. Working hard to achieve your goals is no longer the best way any more. Thus making meritocracy dead.

In the modern world, to make it to the very top, and I'm talking about the top 5%. You can not get there by hard work alone, althought you must retain this virtue. You must be some what attractive(have you seen a billionare that is butt ugly?), know the right people, and work smart. And by smart, I mean recognizing the so called "rules" and apply them to your advantage.

[mad3nch1na]

btw is your cousin hawt?+white?

GB is economically superior.
The British are statistically "happier"
The British have a longer life expectancy
The British have higher average wages
The British has a more advanced military
The British has better public services and infastructure.
The British healthcare plan is better

Americans need to get out of the "AMERICA #1!" mentallity. The hard working, innovative WWII and post WWII generation that made America #1 are dying.

[GIXXERDK]

ofcourse they give a **** about genocide in other countries, and your right we do have interest with what benefits us. you make that sound like its a bad thing, wouldn't you do something that would benefit yourself while helping someone else out? Come on, President Bush gets his information from somewhere (CIA). He doesn't pull **** out of his ass and goes gung ho on it. This is why I feel bad about good people running for president, by the time they get out of their presidency, they reputation has been seriously hurt.

Do you know what happened in Rwanda in the 90's? Hell, do you know wtf is going on in Africa and parts of South America, even TODAY? :rolleyes: Get yourself a real education "Doc"

[mad3nch1na]

Don Cheadle speaks the truth, Hotel Rwanda ftw.
Hutus vs Tutsis ftl.

[BanginJimmy]

My 4th amendments extends to illegal vehicular searches, which is considered an extension of your home.

again, when was the alst time your rights were violated? If you give a cop permission to search your car then its not a violation. If the cop has reason to be suspicious then its not a violation.


Just because slavery and extermination of Indians were elements of the past, does not mean that it does not affect us presently. Slaves were never intended to be made citizens of the United States. The government decided that sending ALL of the slaves to Liberia was too expensive, so they chose to keep them in the United States, but never to have full citizenship. Although the word slave does not appear a single time in the US constitution, it did contain that word in previous versions; it was removed for strategic reasons. Past and present legislature are writen with racist undertones, with out actually using inflamitory words that indicate race. There were more black politicians during post-antebellum reconstruction era than there are now. America was a slave nation longer than it is a free nation.

blah blah blah. that sounds more like excuses than anything else. By any chance do you have a copy or link to one of those early editions of the constitution that mentions slaves?


For example there are more white murderers than black murderers, but more blacks are sentenced to death than white murderers. Same with drugs, white people do WAAAY more drugs than black people, yet black people are persicuted more often.

got any proof of this, or is it just random mumblings? There is also a difference in the drugs being sold and used. Most white drug dealers are selling designer drugs, powder and Meth. Black drug dealers are selling herion and crack. Dont take that as to mean anything more than a dealer will sell what people in his area will buy. Put that same black herion dealer in hollywood he will be selling powder and designer drugs and not crack and herion.



I'm not saying that you should'nt work hard and to just give up if you are not already rich. But to recognize these factors and take them in to account. I think the point of the book is to say that the conventional idea of meritocracy; the idea of hard work will pay off, is slightly skewed. Working hard to achieve your goals is no longer the best way any more. Thus making meritocracy dead.

wrong. If you work hard enough, the chances of not suceeding are very slim. You may not be a millionare within a week of graduating from college, but if you truely work hard you will live a sucessful life.


In the modern world, to make it to the very top, and I'm talking about the top 5%. You can not get there by hard work alone, althought you must retain this virtue. You must be some what attractive(have you seen a billionare that is butt ugly?), know the right people, and work smart. And by smart, I mean recognizing the so called "rules" and apply them to your advantage.

To make it into the top 5% takes alot more than ahrd work and knowing the right people. It takes luck and a boatload of talent.

Also less than 2% of new millionares last year inherited that money.

oh you mean like Bill Gates? Yea he is truely a knock out of a man.

[BanginJimmy]

btw is your cousin hawt?+white?

GB is economically superior.
The British are statistically "happier"
The British have a longer life expectancy
The British have higher average wages
The British has a more advanced military
The British has better public services and infastructure.
The British healthcare plan is better

Americans need to get out of the "AMERICA #1!" mentallity. The hard working, innovative WWII and post WWII generation that made America #1 are dying.

yes she is white, no she isnt any better than average looking. Unless you are a model, you dont get several million dollar signing bonuses in manhattan for being pretty. You get those for being smarter than hell. I'm willing to bet more than you will make in 5 lifetimes that she is making her money because she was in the top 1/2% at Northwestern Law School and not because of the way she looks in a skirt.

anything to back the rest of that or is it just random mumblings?

[highspeed]

wow this probably went a different direction than expected........im impressed at this argument. Car guys do know more than just cars.......keep it up....im learning stuff....and it is entertaining

[95alty]

SEMPER FI... OOH RAH AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHRG

[mad3nch1na]

Life expectancy you can find on Wikipedia, its ranked higher than the US.
Their health care plan and diet awareness(public serivice announcements) are a contributing factor to their life expectancy. The British pound is of greater value of the USD(thats why GB did'nt switch to Euros, cause it would actually decrease their monitary value).

Well comparing military advancness is a qualitative issue, but I will try to put it as quantitative, clear, and easy to understand as I can. The British had at one point in time conquered 1/4 of all of earth's land mass, and they didn't do it by being nice. If its one thing they are familiar with, it sure as hell is military. And aint a damn thing changed. The British have superior air power, including the F-35, which the US will be ordering 1,763 of, they have the Typhoon Euro Fighter, state of the art fighter as the name implys. For their tank they have FV 4034 Challenger 2, which is regarded better than the Abrams A1, because of its modernity in comparison, it also features a rifled barrel for improved accuracy which the Abrams A1 lacks. Their ground are better too, they are more motivated; they fight for "Queen and Country" where as our boys fight for oil and Mr. Bush. Their main battle rifle is the A80a2, it features a bull pup design, meaning the magazine is inserted further back to the but. This is superior to the M16A2 for numerous reasons. 1. By placing the magazine further back, it allows the gun to have a longer barrel(meaning more accurate) while keeping the total dimensions the same 2. It is more reliable than the M16A2, M16A2s are notorious for jamming 3. It keeps the center of gravity of the weapon closer to the soldier, making it more ergonomic. There are a few more but I feel I have stated adequate evidence against the M16A2 already.

The average wage is higher. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285
The average wage of persons in the city is 50,000 pounds per year.(http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investing-and-markets/article.html?in_article_id=420709&in_page_id=3)

I don't recall the specific statistical website that showed that the British are more happy then Americans. But I can show you that more Americans commit suicide than the British. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
See, America is 43, and Britain is 62.

[mad3nch1na]

again, when was the alst time your rights were violated? If you give a cop permission to search your car then its not a violation. If the cop has reason to be suspicious then its not a violation.



blah blah blah. that sounds more like excuses than anything else. By any chance do you have a copy or link to one of those early editions of the constitution that mentions slaves?



got any proof of this, or is it just random mumblings? There is also a difference in the drugs being sold and used. Most white drug dealers are selling designer drugs, powder and Meth. Black drug dealers are selling herion and crack. Dont take that as to mean anything more than a dealer will sell what people in his area will buy. Put that same black herion dealer in hollywood he will be selling powder and designer drugs and not crack and herion.




wrong. If you work hard enough, the chances of not suceeding are very slim. You may not be a millionare within a week of graduating from college, but if you truely work hard you will live a sucessful life.



To make it into the top 5% takes alot more than ahrd work and knowing the right people. It takes luck and a boatload of talent.

Also less than 2% of new millionares last year inherited that money.

oh you mean like Bill Gates? Yea he is truely a knock out of a man.

To start out, people's 4th Ammendment rights are violated all the time. Many of us on the forums have experienced this issue first hand. When a cop pulls you over and wants to search your care YOU ARE OBLIGATED TO SAY YES. The reason being, if you deny his search, he will make up a bull **** probable cause, and call the dogs in, prolonging your stay.


About the constitution, we were talking about this in my African American History class in earlier today. It is also in my book, you can check it out if you want it is titled: "The African-American Odyssey Combined Volume" 4th edition. It was no mystery that blacks were never intended to be made citizens. The court case Plessy v. Ferguson pretty much sealed the deal. (until it was over ruled by Brown v. Board of Education, but that did more harm than good)
:ninja:
http://caho-test.cc.columbia.edu/ps/10199.html
Here is the link, it contains excerpts of the constitution in which they obviously refrence slaves with out using the word.

There are people in African working WAAAAY harder than you have ever worked, does that mean they they will succeede? No. It is because they are trapped in an Africa that has been gang banged and cum shotted on by most of Europe. Look at how many Mexicans that are working at dead end construction jobs, does that mean they are suceeding? No.

Bill Gates is ONE MAN, out of how many billionares?
You're not really wealthy unless you're a billionare. Rich, not wealth. There is a reason why Forbes has a list for Billionares, not millionares. Granted there are exceptions where people have become billionares by their sheer genious, such as Mark Zuckerberg and the Google brothers, but by the rule of majority rules, meritocracy is dead, and the most wealth are not self made.

I don't doubt the validity of your claim
Also less than 2% of new millionares last year inherited that money.
But this is a skewed statistic, as statistics can be used to bias. A person with 999 million dollars and a person with 1.5 million dollars are both millionares. But you can see the obvious difference right!? Sure there are alot of people just breaking in to the 1 million dollar range and calling them selves millionares, but they are not "true" millionares so to say. You can spend a million in a month, 999 no so much. That being said, most self made millionares are people that have just barely broken the 1 million range, where as in most cases, those that have inhereted the monies have several hunderds of millions.

[Spektrewing386]

For their tank they have FV 4034 Challenger 2, which is regarded better than the Abrams A1, because of its modernity in comparison, it also features a rifled barrel for improved accuracy which the Abrams A1 lacks.


"The cannon, in the form of the tank gun, has made the transition from smoothbore to rifled and is moving back to smoothbore. To reliably penetrate the thick armor of modern armored vehicles, a very long, thin kinetic energy projectile is required. The longer the projectile is in relation to its diameter, the higher the twist rate must be to provide stability. Practical rifling can only stabilize projectiles of a certain length to diameter ratio, and these modern rounds are just too long. These rounds are instead formed into a dart shape, using fins for stabilization (see kinetic energy penetrator for information on how this works). With the fins for stability, rifling is no longer needed and in fact the spin imparted by rifling will degrade the accuracy of a finned projectile. Because of the increasing use of the highly effective kinetic energy penetrator projectiles by tank guns, many modern tanks have smoothbore barrels."





Their main battle rifle is the A80a2.
No such weapon. I think you ment the L85A2.

[BanginJimmy]

Life expectancy you can find on Wikipedia, its ranked higher than the US.
Their health care plan and diet awareness(public serivice announcements) are a contributing factor to their life expectancy. The British pound is of greater value of the USD(thats why GB did'nt switch to Euros, cause it would actually decrease their monitary value).

life expecancy and weight a very much interconnected. Americans are the fattest country in the world and a hge part of that is the fact that Americans work more hours per capita and the US has many times more dual income familys meaning that both parents are working.


Well comparing military advancness is a qualitative issue, but I will try to put it as quantitative, clear, and easy to understand as I can. The British had at one point in time conquered 1/4 of all of earth's land mass, and they didn't do it by being nice. If its one thing they are familiar with, it sure as hell is military.

and the colonists, then the US have beaten them in armed conflict twice


And aint a damn thing changed. The British have superior air power, including the F-35, which the US will be ordering 1,763 of,

The US did buy the AV-8B Harrier II from the Brits, but the F35, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter, is a purely American venture through Lockheed Martin. There are 3 variations of it. a CV version for Navy use to repalce the f-14. A STOVL version to replace the Harrier for the Marine Corps. Finally the CTOL version for the Air Force to replace the F-15. These will be sold to the several other countries also, including England.




The average wage is higher. http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=285
The average wage of persons in the city is 50,000 pounds per year.(http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investing-and-markets/article.html?in_article_id=420709&in_page_id=3)

The average wage is higher, but the products they are are more expensive also. Just like the average wage in Chiccago is more than the average wage in Atlanta for the same jobs.

[BanginJimmy]

To start out, people's 4th Ammendment rights are violated all the time. Many of us on the forums have experienced this issue first hand. When a cop pulls you over and wants to search your care YOU ARE OBLIGATED TO SAY YES. The reason being, if you deny his search, he will make up a bull **** probable cause, and call the dogs in, prolonging your stay.

you are not obligated to consent. If you dont consent to it they have every right to call a K-9 and let them sniff around the car. The supreme court has held several times that is not a violation because they did not enter the car.



There are people in African working WAAAAY harder than you have ever worked, does that mean they they will succeede? No. It is because they are trapped in an Africa that has been gang banged and cum shotted on by most of Europe. Look at how many Mexicans that are working at dead end construction jobs, does that mean they are suceeding? No.

What does Africa have to do with a meritocracy in the US?

Are those same people that are working dead end construction jobs also working towards a hgher education? Working hard is only half of the equation. You also need to have an education. Especially in GA because of HOPE, if you are truely dedicated to getting an education you have every oppertunity and no excuses not to get one.



Bill Gates is ONE MAN, out of how many billionares?
You're not really wealthy unless you're a billionare. Rich, not wealth. There is a reason why Forbes has a list for Billionares, not millionares. Granted there are exceptions where people have become billionares by their sheer genious, such as Mark Zuckerberg and the Google brothers, but by the rule of majority rules, meritocracy is dead, and the most wealth are not self made.


I don't doubt the validity of your claim
But this is a skewed statistic, as statistics can be used to bias. A person with 999 million dollars and a person with 1.5 million dollars are both millionares. But you can see the obvious difference right!? Sure there are alot of people just breaking in to the 1 million dollar range and calling them selves millionares, but they are not "true" millionares so to say. You can spend a million in a month, 999 no so much. That being said, most self made millionares are people that have just barely broken the 1 million range, where as in most cases, those that have inhereted the monies have several hunderds of millions.

I just told you that less than 2% of new millionares are self made. I guess you need 100's of millions now to be rich? And unless you look at the vast minority you arent going to aquire 100 million in assets in a single lifetime, but neither did those families that have 100's of millions now. Many of them started either working for someone and taking over, or starting themselves and building it to what it is now. Look at McD's. It started from a single resturant.

[95alty]

Question jimmy... what branch you in man....

[BanginJimmy]

Question jimmy... what branch you in man....

spent 9 years active duty in the Marine Corps, now I'm in the guard.

[95alty]

SEMPER FI!!!!! im in now

[BanginJimmy]

SEMPER FI!!!!! im in now

I should have stayed in. I miss it now

[eloist2]

(have you seen a billionare that is butt ugly?)


yes i have.

Bill Gates.

[mad3nch1na]

Idk I think Mr. Gates was quite teh sexy
http://mosaikum.org/images/bill_gates_sexy.jpg

I never said meritocracy is limited to America, if it exists, it should be universal. Just like God, free will, or morality. It either is, or is not. A liberal minded person that understands this will use it to his great advantage.(not big L Liberal). Though McDonalds did start out as a single restaraunt, it is was not franchising business, and has its shares of pros and cons. Ray Kroc founder the person resposible for the modern McDonalds(franchising) as we know it(note HE did not start the business), made it what it is for understing how to use the meritocracy myth to his advantage. No matter how hard he worked, he could only work for 8 hours a day, because he has 24 hours in a day. But by utilizing other peoples time, franchising, and taking a percentage of their earnings he can make alot more money. The meritocracy myth is the keystone behind business. Mr. Kroc reinvented franchising, thus making his business so successful, if it were just his hard work alone, he would probably still be flipping burgers, figuratively.

You can only work so hard. To make it big, you have to work smart. And this will probably lead us in to a debate about the 95%-5% business owners relationship. The reason 5% own 95% of the wealth is because they understand the guise of meritocracy and how it can be used as a rallying cry for people to work hard and work loyaly to make some one else richer, notably the 5%. Don't get me wrong, some times you have to take jobs that make some one else richer inorder to better your self, but the difference is knowing in contrast to ignorance. Once you understand the methods they employ, you can what you have learned to better your self.,

[BanginJimmy]

I never said meritocracy is limited to America, if it exists, it should be universal.

maybe you need to take this to a UN board then because the only thing an American can control is what happens in America. If other countries want to remain in their caste systems thats their choice and I couldnt possibly care less.


Though McDonalds did start out as a single restaraunt, it is was not franchising business, and has its shares of pros and cons. Ray Kroc founder the person resposible for the modern McDonalds(franchising) as we know it(note HE did not start the business), made it what it is for understing how to use the meritocracy myth to his advantage. No matter how hard he worked, he could only work for 8 hours a day, because he has 24 hours in a day. But by utilizing other peoples time, franchising, and taking a percentage of their earnings he can make alot more money. The meritocracy myth is the keystone behind business. Mr. Kroc reinvented franchising, thus making his business so successful, if it were just his hard work alone, he would probably still be flipping burgers, figuratively.

so you are saying that you make more money by making smart business decisions? WOW what a concept.


You can only work so hard. To make it big, you have to work smart. And this will probably lead us in to a debate about the 95%-5% business owners relationship. The reason 5% own 95% of the wealth is because they understand the guise of meritocracy and how it can be used as a rallying cry for people to work hard and work loyaly to make some one else richer, notably the 5%. Don't get me wrong, some times you have to take jobs that make some one else richer inorder to better your self, but the difference is knowing in contrast to ignorance. Once you understand the methods they employ, you can what you have learned to better your self.,

How about comparing apples to apples. You cant compare someone that has applied themselves to get a college degree and someone that dropped out of HS to smoke crack and have babies. Obviously the person with a bachelors in business administration from UGA is going to make many hundreds of times more money than the HS drop-out thats smoking crack.

Unless you own your own business EVERY job you have makes someone else richer. If you open your own business you take the risks associated with it, so you make the profits.

[eloist2]

Idk I think Mr. Gates was quite teh sexy
http://mosaikum.org/images/bill_gates_sexy.jpg



you're right. I retract my statement. Bill is dreamy.

[95alty]

I should have stayed in. I miss it now

I feel you man... i enjoy it... we get to do an exercise with the army in a few weeks and we are helping them on urban warfare... we get to play the "insurgents" and while we are there we get a chance to get our airborne pin

[BanginJimmy]

When I was out at Pendleton our squadron gunny used to be a grunt and worked at combat town. He set it up to let our squadron play opfor all the time.

[95alty]

When I was out at Pendleton our squadron gunny used to be a grunt and worked at combat town. He set it up to let our squadron play opfor all the time.

LOL... this is my first one... is it fun?

[BanginJimmy]

hell yea it was. Very boring at times because they units that came in did 2-3 hours of classes between 30-60 minute excercise. We also did most of the clean-up while the unit was doing their class and after action after the last excercise.

[95alty]

Dang... so prepared for boredom... they told us the only way we can go is if we were physically fit due to the standard we are held... so anything in PT we have to outdue them

[mad3nch1na]

Yes, I mean owning your own business, don't get this confused with self employment. The 5% that own 95% of the wealth are in the business owners and investors, if you have read Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad Poor Dad, and Cash Flow quadrent you should have already known this. The concept of smart work vs hard work is a very simple idea,, but that is what it boils down to, no matter how hard you work, it will pale in comparison to a smarter worker.

But at the same time you are making it easier than it is, to make smart business decisions you have to know SOOOOO MUCH about every perspective, and to be able to view things in every possible lense before making those decisions, that his where education comes in to play. I'm in this process right now, but it does get pretty difficult some times.

The 5% that own 95% of the wealt consist of business owners and investors, the right side of the cash flow quadrant. It hard to break in to these catagories, but once "broken in" it is relatively easy to maintain your cash flow; this is because of the vast ammount of money that is required to start a business or to be make meaningful investments. One should not work for his entire life, but make enought to move to the higher quadrants.

[BanginJimmy]

Yes, I mean owning your own business, don't get this confused with self employment. The 5% that own 95% of the wealth are in the business owners and investors, if you have read Robert Kiyosaki's Rich Dad Poor Dad, and Cash Flow quadrent you should have already known this. The concept of smart work vs hard work is a very simple idea,, but that is what it boils down to, no matter how hard you work, it will pale in comparison to a smarter worker.

But at the same time you are making it easier than it is, to make smart business decisions you have to know SOOOOO MUCH about every perspective, and to be able to view things in every possible lense before making those decisions, that his where education comes in to play. I'm in this process right now, but it does get pretty difficult some times.

The 5% that own 95% of the wealt consist of business owners and investors, the right side of the cash flow quadrant. It hard to break in to these catagories, but once "broken in" it is relatively easy to maintain your cash flow; this is because of the vast ammount of money that is required to start a business or to be make meaningful investments. One should not work for his entire life, but make enought to move to the higher quadrants.


thank you for proving my point. Hard work combined with education and anything is possible in this country. No, you wont break into the top 1% of Americans richest in 1 generation, but you can become quite wealthy in a single generation if you work hard both on the job and in your education.

[mad3nch1na]

1% is out of reach but in the 5-3% is quite feasible. The problem is some people are unable to have the proper education in order to succeed. Some poor areas have badly funded schools, where the majority of high school students don't go to college, because of the lack of equipment, adequate facilities, staff, etcetera. Some people are limited by their environments. I recently read in the news, that a Clayton county in Georgia is going to lose their diploma accreditation, they still get a diploma, but it wont be worth ****. All of the children that are unable to move out, or attend a private school practically have their future messed up already. This will be the first county to EVER lose their diploma accreditation. Link if you don't believe me: http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/clayton/stories/2008/02/16/claykids0217.html

[DrivenMind]

im going to butt in for a min right quick. i understand both sides and each side has a good point. im currently training to go over to Iraq at an undisclosed location. i have been previleged to the latest information and the most unbiased. it is amazing what the media had done to this war. all the media's focus is on how much it cost and how negative the war is. I will try to put this in some kind of perspective. As of right now the U.S. and its allies have appoximately 60k detainees in iraq alone. Of that at least 3/4 of them want to harm America or westerners. What people don't see is the amound of people who want America there to help stabilize the government and rid the country of insurgents( not just al queda, there are so many terrorist groups over there .....don't get them mixed up with al queda). Right now the war is really more in the stability operation stage. Winning the hearts and minds of the people and helping them understand that we are there for help not to hurt. Im not muslim but i have alot of respect for those that are. they are one of the most devote religions in the world, it really takes alot of discipline. But some people use the Name of Allah(which in english simply means God) to bring a holy war against the evil westerners. I wish i could show you what young kids are taught about america and western society.....it would make you sick......when we were all kids we would learn about history and how to speak.....but these kids get handed an AK47 and a loaded mag. To try to understand what we are doing over there would me futile unless you are there and you see what happens there daily........the media shows half the story.....so if you take into all the media talk....well then the war is lost. Simply put....we are fighting for the people who can't fight for themselves. I know that I will get flamed for this, and i wish i could share the information that i get with you but i can't because of security reasons. Just take it from me.....we are doing good.......even if you arent for the war.....we are doing some good .

Fine if that's your rational, then I guess stick to it. Keep shooting civilians because you can't distinguish them from the "enemy", and keep liberating nations who don't ask to be liberated, you're paving the way for a singular, global government. You can keep telling yourself you're fighting for a people who can't fight for themselves, just like most soldiers do now, and did in Vietnam, unfortunately sooner or later, you are going to be forced to come to the realization that these people never asked for, or wanted our help. Isn't it funny how the U.S. only "helps", nations with whom they import a common commodity.

Thankfully, against your ideals, I don't have to be in Iraq to see what's going on. What Bush is doing to this country, isn't all that different from what Adolf Hitler did to Germany before taking power, and while I will forever support you for risking you life for our country, I will forever be fighting the people who'd rather send you to your death, for their own private gain. Most of the soldier friends I have, have asked me to sit down with them, and explain what I now know to be true about the United States government.

Oh yea... Didn't you swear an oath to protect the constitution, not corrupt politicians? So then why is Bush's agenda so damned important to you?

E Pluribus Unum.

[DrivenMind]

The people you claim to have detained are none other than the middle eastern variation of a religious fundamentalist, which apparently everyone fails to realize is the same type of person who's currently running our country.

I'm not saying something good won't come out of our presence in Iraq, but what I am saying, is that whatever comes out of this shameful waste of human life, will be in the best monetary interest of the United States; for that, and that reason alone, I will never support this war, as it simply illustrates the hidden agenda in place in this "war."

[mad3nch1na]

Yea to prove his point all you have to do is wear a t-shirt to the airport with what APPEARS to be Arabic words on it, and I swear to God you're gonna go through hell. Technically, according to the patriot act a "terrorist" is anyone who incites terror. If any one is a terrorist it would be ourselves. We must focus on terrorism in our own country. How can we call our selves a great nation, when our youngest and smartest go on killing rampages for no reason?

[Spektrewing386]

who don't ask to be liberated


im not really involved in this thread, and i wish to remain neutral between all the arguments here. but i just want to point out a quick thing.


"who don't ask to be liberated"

truth is that they would go to prision if they asked to be liberated. 10 years ago you just couldnt go to the middle of Baghdad Square holding a sign saying "Please liberate us" and not expect a stick of dynamite to be shoved up your ass and then exploded.

[BanginJimmy]

1% is out of reach but in the 5-3% is quite feasible. The problem is some people are unable to have the proper education in order to succeed. Some poor areas have badly funded schools, where the majority of high school students don't go to college, because of the lack of equipment, adequate facilities, staff, etcetera. Some people are limited by their environments. I recently read in the news, that a Clayton county in Georgia is going to lose their diploma accreditation, they still get a diploma, but it wont be worth ****. All of the children that are unable to move out, or attend a private school practically have their future messed up already. This will be the first county to EVER lose their diploma accreditation. Link if you don't believe me: http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/clayton/stories/2008/02/16/claykids0217.html


Our horrible school system, especially in the south, is a definate problem. I wish we could goto a voucher system to bring up the quality of education, but there are those, teachers unions, that like to keep their jobs secure and allowing private schools to compete fairly with govt schools would be the end of their jobs. Several counties have lower per student budgets than the US. They also have higher student to teach ratios so both of the "solutions" that people have come up with are proven not to be the case. Maybe our real problem is that this country has too many crutches for the lazy. Where in other industrialized countries you starve if you are too lazy to get a job, this country rewards you with a paycheck. Maybe a drastic cut in those crutch programs will enduce more people to become self sufficient.

To take this a bit further though. Those people that are in horrible schools have oppertunities to make good wages. It may take a bit longer to do, but in time those lower class people could move into the middle class in 1 generation. The next generation would then be able to send their kids to better schools which will allow them unlimited growth.

[mad3nch1na]

im not really involved in this thread, and i wish to remain neutral between all the arguments here. but i just want to point out a quick thing.


"who don't ask to be liberated"

truth is that they would go to prision if they asked to be liberated. 10 years ago you just couldnt go to the middle of Baghdad Square holding a sign saying "Please liberate us" and not expect a stick of dynamite to be shoved up your ass and then exploded.

By stating this you are automatically implying we are always "right" and we always know what is best for every one else. There are people in this country that don't like our own current administration, 78% last time I checked, and no one is "liberating" us, Bush is still in power. America should not fight other people's war unless we are done with our own. Just because YOU agree with the fact that some one wants to be liberated does not mean that a sovereign nation should be overthrown.The fact that there are people that think like this reflects just how vain some Americans are and goes to show why most of "the rest of the world" hates the United States. It is so sad to see that American's foreign policy the exact opposite of the way the founding fathers envisioned it. We need need to start abbiding by the Monroe Doctrine again...

[BanginJimmy]

We need need to start abbiding by the Monroe Doctrine again...

it worked well for us in the late 1930's and into the early 40's didnt it.

[jimjam187]

The Guardian
February 6, 1999

Saddam link to Bin Laden

By Julian Borger

Saddam Hussein's regime has opened talks with Osama bin Laden, bringing closer the threat of a terrorist attack using chemical, biological or nuclear weapons, according to US intelligence sources and Iraqi opposition officials.

The key meeting took place in the Afghan mountains near Kandahar in late December. The Iraqi delegation was led by Farouk Hijazi, Baghdad's ambassador in Turkey and one of Saddam's most powerful secret policemen, who is thought to have offered Bin Laden asylum in Iraq.

News of the negotiations emerged in a week when the US attorney general, Janet Reno, warned the Senate that a terrorist attack involving weapons of mass destruction was a growing concern. "There's a threat, and it's real," Ms Reno said, adding that such weapons "are being considered for use."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...314700,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,314700,00.html)



Associated Press
February 13, 1999

Bin Laden reportedly leaves Afghanistan, whereabouts unknown

Osama bin Laden, the Saudi millionaire accused by the United States of plotting bomb attacks on two U.S. embassies in Africa, has left Afghanistan, Afghan sources said Saturday.

Taliban authorities in the militia's southern stronghold of Kandahar refused to either confirm or deny reports that bin Laden had left the country.

Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein has offered asylum to bin Laden, who openly supports Iraq against the Western powers.

Despite repeated demands from Washington, the Taliban refused to hand over bin Laden after the August 7 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, demanding proof of his involvement in terrorist activities.

The Taliban did promise that bin Laden would not use Afghanistan as a staging arena for terrorist activities.

http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9...ghan.binladen/ (http://edition.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9902/13/afghan.binladen/)



Lets not forget, democrats felt the same way. To blame Bush for everything is truely ignorant.



“WE HAVE KNOWN FOR MANY YEARS THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN IS SEEKING AND DEVELOPING WMD’S”. - SEN. TED KENNEDY (D, MA) 9/27/2002

“I WILL BE VOTING TO GIVE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES THE AUTHORITY TO USE FORCE - IF NECESSARY - TO DISARM SADDAM HUSSEIN BECAUSE I BELIEVE THAT A DEADLY ARSENAL OF WMD’S IN HIS HANDS IS A REAL AND GRAVE THREAT TO OUR SECURITY.” - SEN. JOHN F. KERRY (D, MA), 10/9/2002

“WE BEGIN WITH THE COMMON BELIEF THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN IS A TYRANT AND A THREAT TO THE PEACE AND STABILITY OF THE REGION. HE HAS IGNORED THE MANDATE OF THE UNITED NATIONS AND IS BUILDING WMD’S AND THE MEANS OF DELIVERING THEM.” - Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI) 9/19/2002

“WE KNOW THAT HE HAS STORED SECRET SUPPLIES OF BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL WEAPONS THROUGHOUT HIS COUNTRY.”- AL GORE, 9/23/2002

“IRAQ’S SEARCH FOR WMD’S HAS PROVEN IMPOSSIBLE TO DETER AND WE SHOULD ASSUME THAT IT WILL CONTINUE FOR AS LONG AS SADDAM IS IN POWER.” - AL GORE, 9/23/2002

“THE LAST UN WEAPONS INSPECTORS LEFT IRAQ IN OCTOBER OF 1998. WE ARE CONFIDENT THAT SADDAM HUSSAIN RETAINS SOME STOCKPILES OF CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS, AND THAT HE HAS SINCE EMBARKED ON A CRASH COURSE TO BUILD UP HIS CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WARFARE CAPABILITIES. INTELLIGENCE REPORTS INDICATE THAT HE IS SEEKING NUCLEAR WEAPONS…” - SEN. ROBERT BYRD (D, WV), 10/3/2002

“THERE IS UNMISTAKABLE EVIDENCE THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN IS WORKING AGGRESSIVELY TO DEVELOP NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND WILL LIKELY HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS WITHIN THE NEXT FIVE YEARS… WE ALSO SHOULD REMEMBER WE HAVE ALWAYS UNDERESTIMATED THE PROGRESS SADDAM HAS MADE IN DEVELOPMENT OF WMD’S.”
- SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D, WV), 10/10/2002

“HE HAS SYSTEMATICALLY VIOLATED, OVER THE COURSE OF THE PAST 11 YEARS, EVERY SIGNIFICANT UN RESOLUTION THAT HAS DEMANDED THAT HE DISARM AND DESTROY HIS CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS, AND ANY NUCLEAR CAPACITY. THIS HE HAS REFUSED TO DO.”
- REP. HENRY WAXMAN (D, CA), 10/10/2002

“IN THE FOUR YEARS SINCE THE INSPECTORS LEFT, INTELLIGENCE REPORTS SHOW THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN HAS WORKED TO REBUILD HIS CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS STOCK, HIS MISSILE DELIVERY CAPABILITY, AND HIS NUCLEAR PROGRAM. HE HAS ALSO GIVEN AID, COMFORT, AND SANCTUARY TO TERRORISTS, INCLUDING AL QAEDA MEMBERS… IT IS CLEAR, HOWEVER, THAT IF LEFT UNCHECKED, SADDAM HUSSEIN WILL CONTINUE TO INCREASE HIS CAPACITY TO WAGE BIOLOGICAL AND CHEMICAL WARFARE, AND WILL KEEP TRYING TO DEVELOP NUCLEAR WEAPONS.”
- SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D, NY), 10/10/2002

“WE ARE IN POSSESSION OF WHAT I THINK TO BE COMPELLING EVIDENCE THAT SADDAM HUSSEIN HAS, AND HAS HAD FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS, A DEVELOPING CAPACITY FOR THE PRODUCTION AND STORAGE OF WMD’S.”
- SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D, FL), 12/8/2002

“WITHOUT QUESTION, WE NEED TO DISARM SADDAM HUSSEIN. HE IS A BRUTAL, MURDEROUS DICTATOR, LEADING AN OPPRESSIVE REGIME… HE PRESENTS A PARTICULARLY GRIEVOUS THREAT BECAUSE HE IS SO CONSISTENTLY PRONE TO MISCALCULATION … AND NOW HE IS MISCALCULATING AMERICA’S RESPONSE TO HIS CONTINUED DECEIT AND HIS CONSISTENT GRASP FOR WMD’S … SO THE THREAT OF SADDAM HUSSEIN WITH WMD’S IS REAL”.
- SEN. JOHN. F. KERRY (D, MA), 1/23/2003

“ONE WAY OR THE OTHER, WE ARE DETERMINED TO DENY IRAQ THE CAPACITY TO DEVELOP WMD’S AND THE MISSILES TO DELIVER THEM. THAT IS OUR BOTTOM LINE”
- PRESIDENT CLINTON, FEB 4, 1998

“IF SADDAM REJECTS PEACE AND WE HAVE TO USE FORCE, OUR PURPOSE IS CLEAR. WE WANT TO SERIOUSLY DIMINISH THE THREAT POSED BY IRAQ’S WMD PROGRAM.”
- PRESIDENT CLINTON, FEB. 17, 1998

“IRAQ IS A LONG WAY FROM (HERE), BUT WHAT HAPPENS THERE MATTERS A GREAT DEAL HERE. FOR THE RISKS THAT THE LEADERS OF A ROGUE STATE WILL USE NUCLEAR, CHEMICAL OR BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS AGAINST US OR OUR ALLIES IS THE GREATEST SECURITY THREAT WE FACE.”
- MADELINE ALBRIGHT, FEB 18, 1998

“HE WILL USE THOSE WMD’S AGAIN, AS HE HAS TEN TIMES SINCE 1983.”
-SANDY BERGER, CLINTON NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, 2/18/98

“(WE) URGE YOU, AFTER CONSULTING WITH CONGRESS, AND CONSISTENT WITH THE U.S. CONSTITUTION AND LAWS, TO TAKE NECESSARY ACTIONS (INCLUDING, IF APPROPRIATE, AIR AND MISSILE STRIKES ON SUSPECT IRAQI SITES) TO RESPOND EFFECTIVELY TO THE THREAT POSED BY IRAQ’S REFUSAL TO END ITS WMD’S PROGRAM.”
-LETTER TO PRESIDENT CLINTON, SIGNED BY SENATORS CARL LEVIN, TOM DASCHLE, JOHN KERRY, AND OTHER DEMOCRATS OCT. 9, 1998

“SADDAM HUSSEIN HAS BEEN ENGAGED IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF WMD TECHNOLOGY WHICH IS A THREAT TO COUNTRIES IN THE REGION AND HE HAS MADE A MOCKERY OF THE WEAPONS INSPECTION PROCESS.”
- REP. NANCY PELOSI (D, CA) DEC 16, 1998

“HUSSEIN HAS ….CHOSEN TO SPEND HIS MONEY ON BUILDING WMD’S AND PALACES FOR HIS CRONIES.”
- MADELINE ALBRIGHT, CLINTON SECRETARY OF STATE, 11/10/99

“THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT….SADDAM HUSSEIN HAS INVIGORATED HIS WEAPONS PROGRAMS. REPORTS INDICATE THAT BIOLOGICAL, CHEMICAL AND NUCLEAR PROGRAMS CONTINUE APACE AND MAY BE BACK TO PRE-GULF WAR STATUS. IN ADDITION, SADDAM CONTINUES TO REDEFINE DELIVERY SYSTEMS AND IS DOUBTLESS USING THE COVER OF ILLICIT MISSILE PROGRAMS TO DEVELOP LONGER-RANGE MISSILES THAT WILL THREATEN THE U.S. AND OUR ALLIES.”
- LETTER TO PRESIDENT BUSH, SIGNED BY SEN. BOB GRAHAM (D, FL) AND OTHERS, 12/5/2001

Hell hea

[0p7!mu5]

Hell hea
so I ask again: where the hell are they? We have been there for years and sent countless troops there. Chemical I can believe since they gassed the Kurds same with biological. I like war as much as the next guy i just want a reason and now that oil contracts are popping up Bush has lost MORE of his argument considering that a few of the oil fields up for long term bids are heavily considered by major us companies.

If we were justified in going there Im still looking for evidence. If we found that Saddam in a damn hole in the middle of nowhere Im sure we could have been found at least one sliver of evidence of wmd.

My other concern is this how did it go from Al **** heads to liberating Iraq? I stronlgy believe that no matter what if a country's citizens do not like a government that much for that long then they will eigther leave or revolt and raise hell. It's all about US interests it has been and it will be. Im not saying diplomacy always works or will work but we cant go bomb every country with a nuclear program like it seems like we are doing.

I still say if we are goin to go after any country for terrorism hit syria, they always go there or somehow bring pressure on the Saudi's since alot of terrorist we have found have been from there ( correct me if im wrong)

[sararose]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/13/alqaeda.saddam/index.html

Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda not linked, Pentagon Says

March 13, 2008

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. military's first and only study looking into ties between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda showed no connection between the two, according to a military report released by the Pentagon.
art.soldier.jpg

The report released by the Joint Forces Command five years after the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq said it found no "smoking gun" after reviewing about 600,000 Iraqi documents captured in the invasion and looking at interviews of key Iraqi leadership held by the United States, Pentagon officials said.

The assessment of the al Qaeda connection and the insistence that Hussein had weapons of mass destruction were two primary elements in the Bush administration's arguments in favor of going to war with Iraq.

The Pentagon's report also contradicts then-Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, who said in September 2002 that the CIA provided "bulletproof" evidence demonstrating "that there are, in fact, al Qaeda in Iraq."

Although other groups, like the September 11 commission, have concluded that there was no link between Hussein and al Qaeda, the Pentagon was able to analyze much more information.

The documents cited in the report do reveal that Hussein supported a number of terrorists and terrorist activities inside and outside Iraq.

"The Iraqi regime was involved in regional and international terrorist operations prior to Operation Iraqi Freedom. The predominant targets of Iraqi state terror operations were Iraqi citizens, both inside and outside of Iraq," according to the report.

Most of the terrorism was aimed at keeping Hussein and his Baath party in power, according to Pentagon officials.

"State sponsorship of terrorism became such a routine tool of state power that Iraq developed elaborate bureaucratic processes to monitor progress and accountability in the recruiting, training and resourcing of terrorists," according to the report.

The report cited such examples as training for car bombs and suicide bombings in 1999 and 2000, both of which U.S. and Iraqi forces have struggled to contain since the rise of the insurgency in summer 2003.

[0p7!mu5]

whoa....

[40th GT]

im going to butt in for a min right quick. i understand both sides and each side has a good point. im currently training to go over to Iraq at an undisclosed location. i have been previleged to the latest information and the most unbiased. it is amazing what the media had done to this war. all the media's focus is on how much it cost and how negative the war is. I will try to put this in some kind of perspective. As of right now the U.S. and its allies have appoximately 60k detainees in iraq alone. Of that at least 3/4 of them want to harm America or westerners. What people don't see is the amound of people who want America there to help stabilize the government and rid the country of insurgents( not just al queda, there are so many terrorist groups over there .....don't get them mixed up with al queda). Right now the war is really more in the stability operation stage. Winning the hearts and minds of the people and helping them understand that we are there for help not to hurt. Im not muslim but i have alot of respect for those that are. they are one of the most devote religions in the world, it really takes alot of discipline. But some people use the Name of Allah(which in english simply means God) to bring a holy war against the evil westerners. I wish i could show you what young kids are taught about america and western society.....it would make you sick......when we were all kids we would learn about history and how to speak.....but these kids get handed an AK47 and a loaded mag. To try to understand what we are doing over there would me futile unless you are there and you see what happens there daily........the media shows half the story.....so if you take into all the media talk....well then the war is lost. Simply put....we are fighting for the people who can't fight for themselves. I know that I will get flamed for this, and i wish i could share the information that i get with you but i can't because of security reasons. Just take it from me.....we are doing good.......even if you arent for the war.....we are doing some good .
highspeed, thanks for that good chunk of info and I appreciate your service. Reps for you.

[Total_Blender]

) Im not saying diplomacy always works or will work but we cant go bomb every country with a nuclear program like it seems like we are doing.

Yeah, Reagan sold Saddam the chemical weapons he used on the Kurds back in the '80's when he was our buddy fighting Iran.Since we have the largest stockpile of WMD's in the world, the whole WMD issue seems to me like a case of the pot calling the kettle black :screwy:

Al Qaeda might have been in Iraq at some point in time but they were probably not wanted there or officially harbored there by Saddam's gov't. Al Qaeda were here too, and you see what happened to us. Saddam was actually liberal compared to other Arab dictators in that part of the world. So Saddam might have seen Iraq as a potential target for an AQ attack. I read an article that said that AQ and the Baath party were from rival Islam groups as well. They are both Sunni so it must be a different Sunni factions.:screwy:

[Spektrewing386]

personally, i dont believe that al-qaeda was in iraq with the iraqi government hosting them. Saddam was a strictly secular type of ruler and was paranoid up the ass. He would have viewed any terrorist organization in his country as a serious threat to his power.

[.::UNKNOWN::.]

The British healthcare plan is better
HA my friend has a grandfather over there that has been waiting on a heart splint for 2 yrs finally had a heart attack due to the wait........ and at 56 yrs old he needed a bypass surgery they told him he was to old and they needed to ration the money in case a younger candidate needed one.... well he died 2 weeks later...... if the health care is more superior over there and in canada why are they coming here to get treatment? and why would anybody want the government running our health care when they have bankrupted the social security program and f*cked up all other programs that are in place? sorry yall can get back on subject that comment made me chuckle
examples
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/world/europe/21britain.html
http://blogs.jsonline.com/mcilheran/archive/2007/01/26/About-that-cheap-British-health-care.aspx
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006785

[BanginJimmy]

personally, i dont believe that al-qaeda was in iraq with the iraqi government hosting them. Saddam was a strictly secular type of ruler and was paranoid up the ass. He would have viewed any terrorist organization in his country as a serious threat to his power.


Al-Qaeda was not in Iraq prior to the US invasion. Iraq did horbor, finance, and train hezbollah, islamic jihad, and a few other groups whose purpose was the destruction of Israel.

[BanginJimmy]

and why would anybody want the government running our health care when they have bankrupted the social security program and f*cked up all other programs that are in place? sorry yall can get back on subject that comment made me chuckle
examples
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/21/world/europe/21britain.html
http://blogs.jsonline.com/mcilheran/archive/2007/01/26/About-that-cheap-British-health-care.aspx
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110006785


This is a question I have been asking Liberals for quite some time. I cannot think of a single govt run program that has been run without gross overcosts, billions in yearly losses due to fraud, and was actually beneficial to the masses.

I MIGHT get on board with a socialized healthcare plan just as soon as the fed govt can get medicare and medicaid udner control. Medicaid's website even says that they lose ~ $30 bil a year due to fraud. How much do you hink that number will go up when you quadruple the number of recipients and have 10x the number of claims and dollars?