Misc God vs. Science [Archive] - IMPORTATLANTA.COM - Automotive, Lifestyle, Offtopic, Forum, Blog, & Online Community

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 03:05 PM

This is a blog my sister posted up on her Myspace. Pretty interesting, of course I had something to say about it.

A science professor begins his school year with a lecture to the students, "Let me explain the problem science has with religion." The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes sir," the student says.

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Aha! The Bible!" He considers for a moment. "Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't."

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

The student remains silent.

"No, you can't, can you?" the professor says. He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.

"Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Er...yes," the student says.

"Is Satan good?"

The student doesn't hesitate on this one. "No."

"Then where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From God"

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?"

"Yes."

"So who created evil?" The professor continued, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

Again, the student has no answer. "Is there sickness? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"So who created them?"

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his question. "Who created them?" There is still no answer. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues onto another student. "Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor, I do."

The old man stops pacing. "Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you ever seen Jesus?"

"No sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus Christ, or God for that matter?"

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"Yes."

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son?"

"Nothing," the student replies. "I only have my faith."

"Yes, faith," the professor repeats. "And that is the problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith."

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a question of His own. "Professor, is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"And is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No sir, there isn't."

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested. The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to explain. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'. We can hit up to 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees."

"Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom, sounding like a hammer.

"What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes," the professor replies without hesitation. "What is night if it isn't darkness?"

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word."

"In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?"

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him. This will be a good semester. "So what point are you making, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must also be flawed."

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time. "Flawed? Can you explain how?"

"You are working on the premise of duality," the student explains. "You argue that there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought."

"It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood either one. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of life, just the absence of it."

"Now tell me, professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester, indeed.

"Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a scientist, but a preacher?"

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the commotion has subsided.

"To continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, let me give you an example of what I mean."

The student looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out into laughter.

"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain, felt the professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears to have done so. So, according to the established rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that you have no brain, with all due respect, sir."

"So if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your lectures, sir?"

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the student, his face unreadable.

Finally, after what seems an eternity, the old man answers. "I guess you'll have to take them on faith."

"Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists with life," the student continues. "Now, sir, is there such a thing as evil?"

Now uncertain, the professor responds, "Of course, there is. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir, or at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

The professor sat down.This is what I had to say.

Your new blog makes absolutely no sense. According to the student, cold doesn't exist. How so, if we can feel it? The students point when talking about the Brain was pointless, if said we can't see it feel, taste, smell, nor hear it.

Well, let me take your brain out, and im sure I can take notes of all the 5 senses with one in front of me. With one in front of us, we can see it, feel it, taste it, smell it, squeeze it which will allow us to hear it.

About the darkness, just like cold. Is only able to be described threw our eyes(1 out of 5 senses).

There is NO proof of God, due to the fact that there hasn't been any proof that it exists. Cold and darkness have, faith will only give you a certain pleasure in knowing that something out there with powers lives and is here to protect you. Which is fine, but once you open your eyes and realized that when you REALLY need him, he will NOT be there to help you.

EDIT: I just copy and pasted everything, so im sure I'll have some errors in my answer.

Discuss...

mocha latte cupcake

12-11-2007, 03:08 PM

There is NO prove of God, due to the fact that there hasn't been any proof that it exists. color]

Discuss...

[/color]

/error/ there is no PROOF of God...etc...etc... and i refuse to get into religious debates on IA... because according to most people christians are close minded.... however the same is true for people who do not believe... /statement have a nice day :D

yudalicious

12-11-2007, 03:17 PM

Religious people should stop trying to use the fundamental tenets of science to disprove science or prove God... to me religion is about faith, not about trying to prove something, it's a leap of faith. I won't tell you about chromosome 2 and you don't tell me about God, we can be friends.

redrumracer

12-11-2007, 03:26 PM

This is a blog my sister posted up on her Myspace. Pretty interesting, of course I had something to say about it.

This is what I had to say.

Your new blog makes absolutely no sense. According to the student, cold doesn't exist. How so, if we can feel it? The students point when talking about the Brain was pointless, if said we can't see it feel, taste, smell, nor hear it.

Well, let me take your brain out, and im sure I can take notes of all the 5 senses with one in front of me. With one in front of us, we can see it, feel it, taste it, smell it, squeeze it which will allow us to hear it.

About the darkness, just like cold. Is only able to be described threw our eyes(1 out of 5 senses).

There is NO proof of God, due to the fact that there hasn't been any proof that it exists. Cold and darkness have, faith will only give you a certain pleasure in knowing that something out there with powers lives and is here to protect you. Which is fine, but once you open your eyes and realized that when you REALLY need him, he will NOT be there to help you.

EDIT: I just copy and pasted everything, so im sure I'll have some errors in my answer.

Discuss...

[/color]

yea i got this also but about the cold and darkness the thingy was right. there is technically no way of measuring cold because temperature is derived from friction of some sort and when some thing reaches 0 K it doesnt put out any heat or energy, and also can you create darkness. and i dont mean turning out the lights? no (and going blind doesnt count)

and no your right there is NO proof of god. thats where faith comes into play. im not a lose minded christian, hell i have a lot of questions about my own belief. thats why i just believe that as long as you believe in something then for the most part your ok, cause god goes by many different names.

bu villain

12-11-2007, 03:44 PM

The arguments made by both sides in this piece are weak. Don't even know where to begin.

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 03:48 PM

Since I've been on IA for two years, this topic always comes up atleast once a month. Just want to see what new people have to say about it, its a good topic for mature arguments. So opinion's of both sides are more than welcome.

tony

12-11-2007, 03:52 PM

nreggie454

12-11-2007, 03:58 PM

The blog is actually really simple, and it makes sense. The professor was disproving God because God created all, and if he created all, he created Evil, which means he cannot be completely good.

In the comparison, God is the same as light or heat. Just as the presence of light or heat makes you able to see or feel warmth, the presence of God is good. In the absence of light or heat, there is only darkness or cold. The absence or rejection of God is evil.

The whole point of the blog isn't to prove the existence of God, it is to refute the claims of the atheistic professor and also use the same type of argument to challenge the theory of evolution and the professor's intelligence.

The existence of God is purely a faith issue, and will always be a faith issue until I die and find out for sure. I personally believe in God for my own reasons.

SE-Rious1

12-11-2007, 04:11 PM

all i can say is what would u wana believe ? A science theory that says there is no god nor proof of him and if so then yull just die and perish but if there is a God then yull go to straight to hell for not believeing him... OR take a chance and try to believe there is a god and if there is a god you go to heaven and face him for what you have done in life and take the chances of forgiveness but if there isnt a god then yull just die and perish no harm done hmm......
ill take my chances and follow my faith
people act like its such a bad thing to think of god or that there is a higher power that envolves heaven or hell
but from my opinion people who find it hard are just the one's who worry the most of going to hell cause either they know they have no chance or they live a life of sin and cant see the goodness of the world/love/faith

redrumracer

12-11-2007, 04:20 PM

hell if you really want to think about it, what says we arent all in somebodies dream????? doesnt a dream not seem real?

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 04:28 PM

For those that want to take this argument further. Watch this video, only part I. And than post up what exactly you believe, either some fairy tails or some facts. For those that like this topic, I highly recommend watching this video.

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

GIXXERDK

12-11-2007, 04:34 PM

My theory is that we are not smart enough, to have a answer. In time we will be able to answer questions. If you look back 100, 200, 300 years ago, the mind set of Christians is not the same as today. Why? Because we got smarter. I guarantee you, in 100, 200, 300 years the Christian population will decrease.

Thats all I have to say about 'God'

BobbyFresco

12-11-2007, 04:47 PM

Christians, or the biggest hypocrites on the face of this earth as I like to call them, live in a fantasy based world.
Much of life is based on logic, reasoning, credible evidence, and science. In a world based on these factors, faith or fantasy imo, has no place.

Even with the two weak examples given, I still think that science is way more credible than faith. Way more credible than a man who stands infront of ppl once a week and tells stories in an expensive ass church, all in the name of God.

XLR8NMR2

12-11-2007, 04:57 PM

There is a god....

I have proof.

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 04:58 PM

There is a god....

I have proof.Were you on crack? Or did you see him on TV?

SE-Rious1

12-11-2007, 04:59 PM

There is a god....

I have proof.

god shall rain down upon you with hell fire and brem stone and they of lil faith shall beg and plead to this god and recongize him as the almighty before man:police:

BobbyFresco

12-11-2007, 05:02 PM

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 05:03 PM

god shall righn down upon you with hell fire and brem stone and they of lil faith shall beg and plead to this god and recongize him as the almighty before manTranslation:

If you're not with me you're against me. If you don't follow my rules, you will be sent to Hell for all eternity, day in and day out you will feel pain, you will fear things around you, you will forever live in fire. How so, once the human brain stops functioning our senses do as well?

Now tell me, if GOD loves you, would he really do that?

XLR8NMR2

12-11-2007, 05:06 PM

http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

SE-Rious1

12-11-2007, 05:08 PM

Translation:

If you're not with me you're against me. If you don't follow my rules, you will be sent to Hell for all eternity, day in and day out you will feel pain, you will fear things around you, you will forever live in fire. How so, once the human brain stops functioning our senses do as well?

Now tell me, if GOD loves you, would he really do that?
yes god loves those who love him and so they shall not perish or feel the burn

STUNTALLDAY and to answer the medicine question yes we use medicens when we are injured or have pain but these come from stuff we make that comes from the earth and who put that hear for us ???
GOD

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 05:13 PM

yes god loves those who love him and so they shall not perish or feel the burn

and to answer the medicine question yes we use medicens when we are injured or have pain but these come from stuff we make that comes from the earth and who put that hear for us ???
GODSorry but if you really think that, im sorry for you. It just doesn't make sense to say that a non known power placed herbs here for us to find and thus create medicines. Really? That just doesn't make sense, Jesus Christ is thought to be someone who was born about 2000 years ago, hmmm who did the people that lived in the year 3000 b.c believe in?

Care to explain to me, what a dinosaur is?

BobbyFresco

12-11-2007, 05:13 PM

yes god loves those who love him and so they shall not perish or feel the burn

STUNTALLDAY and to answer the medicine question yes we use medicens when we are injured or have pain but these come from stuff we make that comes from the earth and who put that hear for us ???
GOD

You have a tylenol tree in your backyard? Really?:rolleyes:
Typical illogical answer. I wouldn't expect anything less.

XLR8NMR2

12-11-2007, 05:15 PM

the reason we cant see,hear,smell,feel, or taste god is because he is in his own dimension that our human brains can't decipher just yet. As we evolve and become smarter we can use a greater percentage of our brains. don't quote me on this but i believe we only use about 2% of our brain power,

even the fastest computers in the world have yet to reach processor speeds that are equivalent to our brain power.

God let's us know everyday he is there but if you have no faith you won't know or sense his presence. At one point in my life i didn't except that there was a god or a higher power but just look around.

look at the color spectrum
look up in the sky and realize that the universe is infinite and we have yet to really discover anything more than a lightyear aways, our camera's and technology just can't make it yet.

Some of yall need to go to church.

SE-Rious1

12-11-2007, 05:16 PM

Sorry but if you really think that, im sorry for you. It just doesn't make sense to say that a non known power placed herbs here for us to find and thus create medicines? That just doesn't make sense, Jesus Christ is thought to be someone who was born about 2000 years ago, hmmm who did the people that lived in the year 3000 b.c believe in?

Care to explain to me, what a dinosaur is?

well if you knew the bible then you woyld know that all of man kind was doomed to go to hell but god saw that man wasnt all evil and some wur good so he gave us a saviour jesus and to whome shall trust him and ask for forgiveness will find there way to God... and yes god created us all unless you are one to think you came from a Monkey LOL

SE-Rious1

12-11-2007, 05:18 PM

You have a tylenol tree in your backyard? Really?:rolleyes:
Typical illogical answer. I wouldn't expect anything less.

hell yeah man ive been growing it for years now lol
nah he gave us the knlologe to combine things to make it tylenol lol

BobbyFresco

12-11-2007, 05:21 PM

well if you knew the bible then you woyld know that all of man kind was doomed to go to hell but god saw that man wasnt all evil and some wur good so he gave us a saviour jesus and to whome shall trust him and ask for forgiveness will find there way to God... and yes god created us all unless you are one to think you came from a Monkey LOL

If evolution is not a proven fact then why is it that a monkey (primate) which is what we are, is a few chromosomes short of being what we are. They are closely related to humans, speaking in an animal sense. Wow. Please find another thread to participate in.

SE-Rious1

12-11-2007, 05:25 PM

If evolution is not a proven fact then why is it that a monkey (primate) which is what we are, is a few chromosomes short of being what we are. They are closely related to humans, speaking in an animal sense. Wow. Please find another thread to participate in.

idk maybe that is something we shall learn in the future who knows maybe monkeys are the real aliens how should i know im just stating that untill i see a monkey talking,walking,screwing,eating like a human does in a daily life then its only Close not exact....but god isnt a argument and i dont want it to seem that way i have no room to speak nor am i trying to make ppl believe in him i just voice my opinion like all others do

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 05:31 PM

Like I said, watch the video than tell me what you think.

For those that want to take this argument further. Watch this video, only part I. And than post up what exactly you believe, either some fairy tails or some facts. For those that like this topic, I highly recommend watching this video.

http://zeitgeistmovie.com/

tony

12-11-2007, 05:33 PM

Can someone direct me to THE scientific theory of evolution that actually makes sense and doesnt seem as far fetched as religion? Thanks in advance

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 05:36 PM

Can someone direct me to THE scientific theory of evolution that actually makes sense and doesnt seem as far fetched as religion? Thanks in advanceThink about it for a sec. I mean REALLY think about it. Do you think GOD placed us here, the "first" human beings were Adam and Eve, correct? So they produced children, those children screwed each other, did it again next generation, did it the next and the next? No way in hell man...

Religion is a business, nothing more.

JDMEK18

12-11-2007, 05:36 PM

WOW!! deep conversation! Its kind of hard to comment on all thats in this topic. But let me say that God and Jesus are very real!!! For those that have truely recieved Jesus in their heart - we know it because we feel him. inside of us - and this is why we surrender our lives to Jesus, one because we love him for what he has already done! - saving the word from their sin! The sin that equals death. and 2 because we rec' the gift of eternal life. The only way to rec' this gift is through faith!! so for me my faith is very real! I know that the world sees all Christians as hypocrites and some of us are - just like there are non-Christian hypocrites. Here's my 2 cents.. We all have evil in us.. we were created in sin and this is why Jesus came into this world - to show us the light and the truth. The truth is that we all have a choice to make, life or death (eternally). I choose life! No one will have evidence until its too late! But I want to be in the number of believers when only one man determines my future "Jesus". I'll server him to the day i never die, haha!! get it eternal life, joke -but true! But hey, my comments are from my faith - its not to bash anyone - just to say whats on my heart! But, i will say to the guy that commented on Christians eventually being no more!!! Your 100% right - On The Day of The Rapture!!! But trust me - you wouldn't want to be here after that! I pray that you come into the light before that day and disappear with us brother. God Bless All !!!

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 05:39 PM

BobbyFresco

12-11-2007, 05:41 PM

Religion is a business, nothing more.

Exactly.....

Why do churches pay their ministers, pastors, etc, a salary?
Why do ppl pay to go to school to learn how to "spread the word"?
What's the need to build big, opulant churches year after year? Why does it matter where you worship as long as you worship, if that is simply the intent?
Why sell "holy" water on tv?
Why ask for money in exchange for praying for someone?on tv no less..:screwy:

BobbyFresco

12-11-2007, 05:45 PM

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 05:45 PM

For those that don't know, Im Maniac. And I want you to post up your thoughts on this topic, I don't give up so easily in any argument. So it'll be interesting to see how far this gets. I really want to see newbies post in here, see what they have to say about this. Always good to hear from new people. Stunt, you and I think alike man. We have posted alot more logical posts than other people here.

SE-Rious1

12-11-2007, 05:49 PM

Not to sound like an ass-hole, but if i had a gun pointed in your face. And you started praying, for god. And I shot you, where was god there?
oh but wait the avatar says ummm damn im confused alex lol

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 05:51 PM

oh but wait the avatar says ummm damn im confused alex lolYeah, but in the Lifestyle section im not. Especially when the topic is about religion.

Now back on topic, where was god there?

metalman

12-11-2007, 06:44 PM

Exactly.....

Why do churches pay their ministers, pastors, etc, a salary?
Why do ppl pay to go to school to learn how to "spread the word"?
What's the need to build big, opulant churches year after year? Why does it matter where you worship as long as you worship, if that is simply the intent?
Why sell "holy" water on tv?
Why ask for money in exchange for praying for someone?on tv no less..:screwy:

As a contrast to that...the only time in recorded Bible history where Christ ever showed anger it was toward those making a business of religion. ;)

tony

12-11-2007, 07:51 PM

Think about it for a sec. I mean REALLY think about it. Do you think GOD placed us here, the "first" human beings were Adam and Eve, correct? So they produced children, those children screwed each other, did it again next generation, did it the next and the next? No way in hell man...

Religion is a business, nothing more.

Do you REALLY think everything that humans have supposedly evolved to today came from a big bang?

Hulud

12-11-2007, 08:19 PM

the religions of today will be gone in a couple thousand years and replaced with others

Hulud

12-11-2007, 08:23 PM

Exactly.....

Why do churches pay their ministers, pastors, etc, a salary?
Why do ppl pay to go to school to learn how to "spread the word"?
What's the need to build big, opulant churches year after year? Why does it matter where you worship as long as you worship, if that is simply the intent?
Why sell "holy" water on tv?
Why ask for money in exchange for praying for someone?on tv no less..:screwy:
wow, yea lets think as a child here :lmao:

why do they pay a salary? because they have to support a family. its not like a pastor only shows up on sundays anymore, its an all week thing now.

why do people pay to spread the word? why do you pay for a college education? same answer

Hulud

12-11-2007, 08:24 PM

Do you REALLY think everything that humans have supposedly evolved to today came from a big bang?
then whats the idea of christians? they just appeared by god?

both ideas hold the same water in an argument

tony

12-11-2007, 08:28 PM

then whats the idea of christians? they just appeared by god?

both ideas hold the same water in an argument

Is it so hard to believe that there is a greater purpose here? Not necessarily saying christianity but spirituality, if evolution is just as ridiculous as christianity at least acknowledge the chance that there is a spiritual presence in this world.

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 08:29 PM

Do you REALLY think everything that humans have supposedly evolved to today came from a big bang?The Bible tells us that the earth was created in six days. Six days, what does that exactly mean? The changes that the Bible describes could not have taken place in just six twenty-four hour days. It is just not enough time in physical terms. So you tell me, what sounds true? That God placed us here, and everything was form with the quickness, or that over time things evolved to the way they are today?

Everything needs a spark to start things off, and who knows. Maybe the Big bang was that spark for us.

Hulud

12-11-2007, 08:32 PM

Is it so hard to believe that there is a greater purpose here? Not necessarily saying christianity but spirituality, if evolution is just as ridiculous as christianity at least acknowledge the chance that there is a spiritual presence in this world.
if you have read other posts i have made, i dont say whether there is or is not a god (i used to say there wasnt but within the past couple years im indecisive).

i just believe that if there is a god, it is not the christian one

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 08:33 PM

i just believe that if there is a god, it is not the christian oneSame here.

tony

12-11-2007, 08:38 PM

I didnt ask about the bible I asked about evolution, please show me a VALID theory of evolution.. not discredit the bible since I don't read it anyway.

We developed from organisms spawned by a big explosion in the universe to become humans.. with this supposed bang came emotions, feelings, and knowledge?

So what is the purpose of this life since there is no spirituality? To live for yourself and only those around you?

tony

12-11-2007, 08:39 PM

if you have read other posts i have made, i dont say whether there is or is not a god (i used to say there wasnt but within the past couple years im indecisive).

i just believe that if there is a god, it is not the christian one

gotcha.. didnt read all the posts I just kind of chimed in.

Hulud

12-11-2007, 08:40 PM

Hulud

12-11-2007, 08:41 PM

gotcha.. didnt read all the posts I just kind of chimed in.
yea its cool, thats what i did as well

i was referring to other posts in other threads i have been in before

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 08:46 PM

I didnt ask about the bible I asked about evolution, please show me a VALID theory of evolution.. not discredit the bible since I don't read it anyway.I personally don't know everything about evolution. Just the fact that over a long period of time things must change, this could be due to their environment going threw changes were they have to adapt to these new changes. During this time period, it learns from experince and gains new knowledge, allowing it to live in newer enviroments. Thus "evolving" from a previous stage. A less advance organism.

We developed from organisms spawned by a big explosion in the universe to become humans.. with this supposed bang came emotions, feelings, and knowledge? No, our feelings evolved just like everything else.

So what is the purpose of this life since there is no spirituality? To live for yourself and only those around you?There is, just not the one mentioned in the bible.

n2daizo123

12-11-2007, 08:52 PM

C22H19N3O4

12-11-2007, 08:53 PM

I want to issue a challenge to those that adamantly believe in their faith with undying passion. Since God and faith and all that other bs supposedly can get one through anything, next time you break a leg or an arm, have a heart attack, or simply the flu, get by on your faith. If faith is all you need then you shouldn't require the use of medicine (science), xray machines (science), or any other type of medical care.

The above was presented in the past. I'm still waiting for an answer. :lmfao:

Sad to say religion is an old topic here, but I still get a kick out of all the different definitons of evolution and the big bang.

Ask your god to deal with the medical radioisotope shortage! :yes:

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 08:59 PM

Sad to say religion is an old topic here, but I still get a kick out of all the different definitons of evolution and the big bang.We could use Google, if we wanted too. Care to fill us in with some more of your knowledge?

n2daizo123

12-11-2007, 09:00 PM

And to those questioning evolution look at this. link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTgeLEWr614)
And there are so many religions and form of religions how do Christians know theirs is the right one?

C22H19N3O4

12-11-2007, 09:07 PM

We could use Google, if we wanted too. Care to fill us in with some more of your knowledge?

Then use Google or do a search here. If you REALLY want a discussion join here (http://www.ethicalatheist.com/forum/). Most of the guys there are civil. ;)

Looks like Maniac has another AE? :police: :lmfao:

Edit - *HERE is my word of the day.*

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 09:13 PM

Then use Google or do a search here. If you REALLY want a discussion join here (http://www.ethicalatheist.com/forum/). Most of the guys there are civil. ;) No thanks, im cool with IA.

Looks like Maniac has another AE? :police: :lmfao: No alter ego, this is my only one.

Edit - *HERE is my word of the day.*... Que?

Hulud

12-11-2007, 09:13 PM

Then use Google or do a search here. If you REALLY want a discussion join here (http://www.ethicalatheist.com/forum/). Most of the guys there are civil. ;)

Looks like Maniac has another AE? :police: :lmfao:

Edit - *HERE is my word of the day.*
nah its not his AE, its his new SN

but anyways, im not gonna join that site

check this post this person made:

decristionize

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i think the best thing for this contury right now would be to dechristionize it. make god a curse word and demolish all the churches like that one guy tried to do in the 1700s to france. do you think it would be posible or just a dream. becouse of course well need an athist preasent.

need i say more?

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 09:16 PM

need i say more?I can tell that site must have copys of albert einstein posting everywhere. :rolls eyes:

n2daizo123

12-11-2007, 09:18 PM

I have read the bible through genesis and there was something in there about a man was married to a woman and she couldn't conceive and she offered her servant and they had a kid and later his wife conceived and god gave both the bastard child and the legitimate child the same treatment? So that would mean that god is condoning the actions of going against the 7th commandment? Why should one live by those rules if your "god" condones breaking them? The bible contradicts itself.

C22H19N3O4

12-11-2007, 09:19 PM

nah its not his AE, its his new SN

but anyways, im not gonna join that site

check this post this person made:

need i say more?

You don't want to join the site b/c of a troll? :lmfao:

C22H19N3O4

12-11-2007, 09:21 PM

I can tell that site must have copys of albert einstein posting everywhere. :rolls eyes:

:lmfao: :lmfao:

You try way too hard.

Hulud

12-11-2007, 09:22 PM

You don't want to join the site b/c of a troll? :lmfao:
not A troll, but that site is 99% trolls

Hulud

12-11-2007, 09:23 PM

:lmfao: :lmfao:

You try way too hard.
now thats funny lol

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 09:24 PM

:lmfao: :lmfao:

You try way too hard.Awww sorry about that professor, so I made a small mistake. Gonna fail me now? Keep your jokes and posts out of this thread, you're not posting anything that has to do with the topic. Don't even know why im wasting my time on you, again...

n2daizo123

12-11-2007, 09:32 PM

Since we are looking for answers for our creation, has any one heard of the Raëlian Movement?

C22H19N3O4

12-11-2007, 09:32 PM

Awww sorry about that professor, so I made a small mistake. Gonna fail me now? Keep your jokes and posts out of this thread, you're not posting anything that has to do with the topic. Don't even know why im wasting my time on you, again...

:lmfao:

I await your next post with eager anticipation. :D

ueyedgr8tness

12-11-2007, 10:12 PM

I refuse to read all the comments cause it is useless to try to explain,i am glad to have a great measure of faith delt by god even thoe i no don't follow up as i should by trying to do what is right.

sience believes we come from monkeys.i personal don't think i look nothing like a monkey so if thats what they try to prove i don't care to hear any more about it.

do i belive there is a god?< of course i am pretty sure this world didnt just create itself and yes i have got down on my knee and prayed for something any of course a couple yr's later i have been blessed with what i wanted when i needed it not when i just wanted it.

so thrue all that,if u believe like in the theory that u come from a monkey go ahead cause when your great grand kids turn 60 they will tell there kids they came from a dinosaur and just like u they will believe it.

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 10:22 PM

You're wrong, our children's children will have alot more knowledge than we do now. They will know the truth, and finally understand how life is supposed to be lived. Them reading storys of a man dividing the sea and a huge flood over coming the land, and a man that saved animals by making a ark, will not be inprinted in their mind. Nor will they find it cute, cause with time only comes new answers. And the answers that alot of us have now will be answered in the future.

And Vick, please reply. I want to see how much you know about this topic.

Hulud

12-11-2007, 10:25 PM

so thrue all that,if u believe like in the theory that u come from a monkey go ahead cause when your great grand kids turn 60 they will tell there kids they came from a dinosaur and just like u they will believe it.
lol

you are exactly like this quote, ill bet your parents tell you god this god that

and you recite it here :goodjob:

n2daizo123

12-11-2007, 10:31 PM

ueyedgr8tness

12-11-2007, 10:32 PM

lol

you are exactly like this quote, ill bet your parents tell you god this god that

and you recite it here :goodjob:

nAh unlike u i read: and out off all the books i read believeing in god made more since than thinking i come from a monkey:goodjob: so my parents have nothing to do with me and god get it right:yes:

BABY J

12-11-2007, 10:32 PM

...

Hulud

12-11-2007, 10:35 PM

nAh unlike u i read: and out off all the books i read believeing in god made more since than thinking i come from a monkey:goodjob: so my parents have nothing to do with me and god get it right:yes:
lol you fit the stereotype perfectly :lmfao:

judge judge judge

im glad you can read, cause when you read, you are reading what humans write :goodjob:

i experience life, not read what someone else thinks like you

BABY J

12-11-2007, 10:36 PM

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/showpost.php?p=34774558&postcount=26

Hulud

12-11-2007, 10:36 PM

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/showpost.php?p=34774558&postcount=26
lol i remember that

ueyedgr8tness

12-11-2007, 10:38 PM

Religion was used as a way to explain the un-explainable. If you look at past religions it becomes very clear. People used to pray for rain and if it happened it was a miracle because they did not understand why it rains. We now know there is no point in that because we understand the concept of rain. As science advances and more things are explained, religion or the need for religion will become obsolete. And according to your religion dinosaurs didn't exist because the bible never mentions it.

ok since u hink u gto the answer's let me break it down for u baby's.

sience say's dinosaurs existed now if that is true were is the off spring of a dinosaur? seem like it should be even bigger since, humans suppose to have come from monkey's were bigger than some monkey's so all the other creature had offsprings but not the dinosaur hmm.... that is weird like most scientist bs that they come up with.

Now i have seen preacher's heal the sick and heal ppl with deadly diseases that the doctor's said couldn't be healed. If your scientist is so great why can't they cure (HIV) so want u go do some :thinking: now

n2daizo123

12-11-2007, 10:39 PM

And a question for thought, if god created all life, then how come humans are the only ones confined to the 10 commandments? Animals kill other animals. Most species are not monogamous. These species lack the reasoning of humans so how can they repent? Do the not deserve eternal life? Is everything destine for hell except the human race?

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 10:40 PM

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/showpost.php?p=34774558&postcount=26Killer is such a cry baby when it comes to this subject, +1 for making that post. Lol

And according to your religion dinosaurs didn't exist because the bible never mentions it.Lolol. But hey, they're reading a book "writing" by god, so it must be true.

ueyedgr8tness

12-11-2007, 10:40 PM

lol you fit the stereotype perfectly :lmfao:

judge judge judge

im glad you can read, cause when you read, you are reading what humans write :goodjob:

i experience life, not read what someone else thinks like you

YOur right i experience life to and i have been blessed with a longer life than most of my friends growing up and i have known on my own that when i go to church and seek god i feel somthing that can' be explained to u guy's untill ui feel it your self so i hope u find him soon:D

Crazy Asian

12-11-2007, 10:41 PM

I hate these crap. Ever side has an opinion and what not. I tend to stay out of it. Blah.

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 10:41 PM

I hate these crap. Ever side has an opinion and what not. I tend to stay out of it. Blah.
This topic isn't intended for the weak. Smart move.

revsk8erdude

12-11-2007, 10:43 PM

todays jesus christ = the bush administration.

chritianity is a big misconception that has been held up by 0.50 duct tape for 1,000's of years.

and on top of that...

evolution makes WAYYY more sense than "once upon a time, there was nothing there... and then there was.. and thank god for everything. now go get on your knees and suck his ****, you little ingrateful piece of shet, or burn in hell for the rest of your afterlife"

open your goddamn eyes.

SCIENCE DOES EXIST!

EVOLUTION DOES EXIST!

GOD DOES NOT EXIST!

i dont have anyhting to worry about... christianity WILL fail. sooner or later.

Crazy Asian

12-11-2007, 10:45 PM

This topic isn't intended for the weak. Smart move.

Bahahahahaha

Hulud

12-11-2007, 10:45 PM

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 10:50 PM

ueyedgr8tness

12-11-2007, 10:54 PM

all organized religion has 1 major flaw.....

it relies on man

I dont relie on religion i relie on god and it works for me,but your right most ppl in the church age relie on the man running the church the pastor.

Me i don't relie on a pastor i relie on the bible the word of god,cause if u would do some reading in it it will tell u things to come to pass and sure enough alot of things it talks about or coming to pass this day and time:goodjob: my bro it don't get no realer than that a book that was ridden yr's ago saying things that would come to pass yr's later and it coming true now that is something u can believe in.

BABY J

12-11-2007, 10:54 PM

YOur right i experience life to and i have been blessed with a longer life than most of my friends growing up and i have known on my own that when i go to church and seek god i feel somthing that can' be explained to u guy's untill ui feel it your self so i hope u find him soon:D

So... things are good for YOU huh? That's awesome... what about the people that die of hunger and thirst asking God for invisible help that never arrives? You're so f*ckin selfish - just like other Christians. The simple fact is that God is NOT good to a good percentage of the world's population.

You're also forgetting that there are PLENTY of religions... religions that YOU would denounce as not "THE" religion - they get that SAME feeling that you say that you get. So who's right - let me guess, YOU are.:rolleyes:

The simple factis that you are product of your environment. I have seen people die in the streets while begging and pleading for invisible help from God that never arrives. I think RELIGION is the worst thing to happen to spirituality. God (if there is one) would be too big to fit inside of 1 religion... yet Christianity is one of the most arrogant of all the religions. Honestly I grew up in church and accepted him as Lord and Savior as kid... after spending 8 years in the military and seeing things that most will NEVER believe could happen is when I had doubts, and have had doubts every since. Am I SPIRITUAL? Yes. I think that most things have a good spirit or a bad spirit. But am I religious? No. Why do you speak English? Most likely b/c your parents did --> you are a product of your environment. Look on your kitchen counter and chances are you use the same dish detergent that your mom did. So here's the skinny... you are born in China (by NO fault of your own, and you are a Buddhist). You die and go to hell b/c of that? I am NOT buying the RELIGIOUS separation that exists... if God said "come as you are" then why are Christians trying to "convert" others to Christianity? I get it God can do ANYTHING - anything except save people from other countries and other religions. Guess he's not al ALL mighty afterall. And even Christians have MANY seprations in their own religion. Ask a Presbyterian why they are Presbyterian and they will most likely not be able to answer. In fact, ask them why they are Presbyterian vs Methodist and chances are they will not even be able to tell you what the difference is. Fickle crowd, and as humans we always will be. There is not a preacher on Earth that has told me anything more than what a good mom and dad can tell me. Don't steal? No ****! I do not need a preacher to tell me good common sense about treating others right. I could go on...

Bottom line, if you were adopted at birth by a Japanese family, chances are greater than not that you'd 1) speak Japanese and 2) be a Buddhist and SWEAR by Buddhism as much as you swear by Christianity today.

Crazy Asian

12-11-2007, 10:57 PM

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 10:57 PM

Me i don't relie on a pastor i relie on the bible the word of god,cause if u would do some reading in it it will tell u things to come to pass and sure enough alot of things it talks about or coming to pass this day and time:goodjob: my bro it don't get no realer than that a book that was ridden yr's ago saying things that would come to pass yr's later and it coming true now that is something u can believe in.So if I make a book, today. About weird storys, and than store it. And for some reason it gets found 1000 years from now, will I be considered god? I mean, the book will be old, written years ago, right? I mean, thats kinda what you're trying to say... explain.

n2daizo123

12-11-2007, 10:58 PM

This reminds me of the family guy, watch this videoClick (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/135713/family_guy_the_big_bang/)

Hulud

12-11-2007, 10:59 PM

I dont relie on religion i relie on god and it works for me,but your right most ppl in the church age relie on the man running the church the pastor.

Me i don't relie on a pastor i relie on the bible the word of god,cause if u would do some reading in it it will tell u things to come to pass and sure enough alot of things it talks about or coming to pass this day and time:goodjob: my bro it don't get no realer than that a book that was ridden yr's ago saying things that would come to pass yr's later and it coming true now that is something u can believe in.
thats good that christianity works for you

but like baby j said why do people think that god is answering their petty prayers but not people who actually need help?

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 11:00 PM

Alex if you read the Bible you'd see that most of the time he protects them or test their faith. Some he sacrafices his son's or disciple to help us the Christian's understand.Understand what?

Hulud

12-11-2007, 11:02 PM

its like perdue praying for rain :lmao:

now thats a joke

if god answers perdues prayer for rain then i dont want that god anyways

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 11:02 PM

This reminds me of the family guy, watch this videoClick (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/135713/family_guy_the_big_bang/)LMAO! I remember that episode.

ueyedgr8tness

12-11-2007, 11:07 PM

stay_up, like I asked SE-R dude.

If I had a gun pointed at you, and you prayed, and I shot you. Where was "god" there? When someone really needs help, they shouldn't rely on an myth to save them. People that don't deserve to die, die everyday. What did they do to GOD for him to take their life away? He loves his kids, right?

LOl ok smart 1 i will give u a few more:yes:

Ok u have god then u have the devil the BIBLE speaks of both of them.

Now lets say u live on lexus ave,N and 3 streets down there is lacy street all the drug dealer's and bs goe's on down there well your father tells u not to go down there to the store ever but 1 day u go and u end up at the wrong place at the wrong time and get caught up in a shooting and u die.

NOw why didnt your father save u?< because he had warned u not to go down there and on your on will u went without him and end up getting shot,when if u had went with your dad he would of seen the place u were going and kept u from harm.

Now humans were giving the 10 commandments just like your dad told u places not to go if we follow his commandments (his word) we would be safe cause he see the danger that lie's ahead thats why we stay with the word of god the (BIBLE read it alot and u will live a long life)

OK if u didnt get what i was saying thrue all that ima keep it simple and say if u had a gun pointed at me and u killed me were was my god then,all i can say is he put us on this earth for a reason just like your parents had u cause most parents want a kid to raise and have a family.

And if i have done what he wanted me to do on this earth it would be my time to go anyway to a better place called heaven were he say's there will be no sickness or pain so what would i have to loose u tell me:goodjob:

ISAtlanta300

12-11-2007, 11:08 PM

[QUOTE=revsk8erdude]evolution makes WAYYY more sense than "once upon a time, there was nothing there... and then there was.. [QUOTE]

That sounded exactly like the big bang theory... what gives?

ueyedgr8tness

12-11-2007, 11:09 PM

Oh and by the way i answer your ? and i am done with this topic cause it is useless to try to get u to understand something u havent even picked up and read yourself.

Hulud

12-11-2007, 11:11 PM

Oh and by the way i answer your ? and i am done with this topic cause it is useless to try to get u to understand something u havent even picked up and read yourself.
dude you really do base your faith off something written by man...

BABY J

12-11-2007, 11:11 PM

Hmmm... in my mind --> anyone with a love for truth outside of himself/herself has to start with NO belief in God, and THEN look for evidence of such a God. That person needs to search for some objective evidence of a supernatural/spiritual power. All the people I write e-mails to or talk to about their faith are still often are still stuck at this "searching" stage. Me NOT believing in it puts me at a point where I HAVE ARRIVED, while they are still searching. Consequently, I arrived at the point I am at today by starting on the same road that my mom, grandparents and all other believers are on today. Hmmm... imagine that. And that belief is in a higher power, but NOT in "God" (as we know it).

The "I BELIEVE IN GOD" thing seems to demand something more personal, some leap of faith that helps one see life's big picture, some rules to live by. So, I'm saying, "I believe that there is no God... at least as we know it and are taught." I think we ALL as a people have missed the BIG picture.

Having taken that step in the belief of NOTHING, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love... I love blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards --> and that has to be enough for me. Everything in the world is plenty for me. It seems just rude to beg the invisible for more... to beg for some HEAVEN when there can be heaven here on Earth at times. Just the love of my family that raised me and the friends I have is enough that I don't "need" heaven. I won the huge genetic lottery and I get joy, and I get to ENjoy it every day.

Believing there's no God (as it is taught) means I can't really be forgiven except by kindness of other people that I can talk to and look at and touch. That's good; b/c it makes me want to be more thoughtful --> I have to try to treat people right the first time around instead of knowing that I can just repint to "God" later on. Why should GOD 4give me for offendign Bob? Shouldn't BOB forgive me himself?

Believing there's no God stops me from being narrow-minded. I can read ideas from all different people from all different cultures --> unlike Christians turning a deaf ear as soon as some1 w/ a different view than them starts to speak. Without God, we as people can agree on reality, and I can use this reality to keep learning where we are wrong and could all improve. And part of that REALITY is innocent people dieing of hunger/disease in the middle of street while begging for invisible help from "God" that never arrives. With NO God, we can all keep adjusting, so we can REALLY learn to communicate w/ each other no matter where we are from and what we believe in. W/ "God" in the picture, that's the 1st step for segregation (religious). I don't travel in circles where people say, "I have faith, I believe this in my heart and nothing you can say or do can shake my faith." That's just a long-winded religious way to say, "shut up," or another two words that the FCC likes less (**** YOU). But all obscenity in the world is less insulting than, "It's how I was brought up" and "my imaginary friend means more to me than anything you can ever say or do." So, believing there is no God lets me be proven wrong and that's always fun. It means I'm learning something.

Believing there is no God means the suffering I've seen in my family, my life, and indeed all the suffering in the world, isn't caused by an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent force that isn't bothered to help or is just "testing us"... that suffering is something we all may be able to help others with in the future. Like I said, I have LITERALLY seen people die waiting for invisible help from "God". But if I believe in US, then WE should come to the rescue of that person in the street. CAUSE GOD IS NOT GOING TO!!! A God, if there was one, would want US to help that man... GET A CLUE!!! No God means the possibility of less suffering in the future... but only if WE as PEOPLE, and I mean ALL ****ING PEOPLE help EACH OTHER!!!

Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family, people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-O and all the other things I can prove and touch/taste that make this life the best life I will ever have... how can "heaven" compare if all of my friends and family will not be there? THIS is likely the best life I will ever have.

If there is a God, I imagine he is laughing at the people who are asking for MORE (heaven, prayers, streets of gold, angels), when he has provided everything that we will ever need RIGHT HERE... each other.

n2daizo123

12-11-2007, 11:13 PM

BABY J

12-11-2007, 11:15 PM

I do not knock that there is a higher power. Maybe some GOD created Darwins Theory. If he did, he left the rest up to us and we are failing miserably. HOWEVER, my only concern is RELIGION, not spirituality. I am VERY spiritual, but I think CHRISTIANS/CHRISTIANITY is one of the most arrogant religions out there. They put "God" on a pedestal as THE only God, and all other Gods are wrong. Well if their God was SO Almighty, I'd immediately think that he is WAY too big to just fit so perfectly into "just" Christianity and NOT inside other religions. The things that most Christians do not know (simply b/c a lot of them will not even OPEN THEIR EARS for discussion when you mention anything not inline w/ their way of thought) is that most modern religions are more alike than they are different... **thinking** SO if we could account those very minute differences to "mans" influence, then simply being a Buddhist or Muslim should not send you to hell. Ya think? CHRISTIANITY has a "my way or the highway" mentality, which basic LIMITS the power of the "oh so mighty" God that they serve. To say that THEIR God is the ONLY God, says that he is basically UNABLE to save people that are non-Christian... guess he isn't so mighty afterall.

MMmmkay, buh bye.

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 11:16 PM

LOl ok smart 1 i will give u a few more:yes:

Ok u have god then u have the devil the BIBLE speaks of both of them.

Now lets say u live on lexus ave,N and 3 streets down there is lacy street all the drug dealer's and bs goe's on down there well your father tells u not to go down there to the store ever but 1 day u go and u end up at the wrong place at the wrong time and get caught up in a shooting and u die.

NOw why didnt your father save u?< because he had warned u not to go down there and on your on will u went without him and end up getting shot,when if u had went with your dad he would of seen the place u were going and kept u from harm.

Now humans were giving the 10 commandments just like your dad told u places not to go if we follow his commandments (his word) we would be safe cause he see the danger that lie's ahead thats why we stay with the word of god the (BIBLE read it alot and u will live a long life)

OK if u didnt get what i was saying thrue all that ima keep it simple and say if u had a gun pointed at me and u killed me were was my god then,all i can say is he put us on this earth for a reason just like your parents had u cause most parents want a kid to raise and have a family.

And if i have done what he wanted me to do on this earth it would be my time to go anyway to a better place called heaven were he say's there will be no sickness or pain so what would i have to loose u tell me:goodjob:Do you believe in the tooth fairy and boogey man? What about unicorns? If heaven has any of those things there, I rather hit up Hell. So let me get this straight, my dad tells me not to go to the store. Cause its dangerous, one day I go without his permission and get killed. So this would be like telling my cat Oreo not to go far from the house cause he might get run over. He just doesn't understand, and one day he does it and dies. Ok... Hmmm...

So God already had people in the gas station wating to take my life, because? And what if other people were there that their father didn't tell them anything but had the same thing happen to them? You can't use that as an example, when trying to compare my question to a store.

n2daizo123

12-11-2007, 11:18 PM

So God created everything, including man, but if this is so, then who created God? Basically, there has to be a creator of the creator, right? Who then gave God the right to be God? And who gave the creator of God the right to create God? If we live good lives and believe, we will go to a wonderful place where all questions such as these will be answered, but until then we're here to demonstrate our faith and learn. After you go to that place and know everything
is there a reason for existence anymore?

Crazy Asian

12-11-2007, 11:20 PM

Alex;
Faith. Ill put into an example. In the Bible, there's a man named Job who had everything in the world. If you want to put it current context he'll be Bill Gates. Money, Power, Fame everything and ontop of that he was a strong Christian. One day God decided to take everything he had litterally nothing to where he had only his underwear but he still loved God and proclaimed his love for him and didnt care. That's a strong faith. Then within that following week everything he owned was returned

Same goes for Jesus Christ. That was God's only Son that was pure; God sacraficed his only Son to forgive everyone's sin. God knew that if he didnt sacrafice his only Son everything that he loved which is me you and everyone else would got straight to hell no matter what. Even being Christian wouldnt helped. And before that in the Old Testament the Christian's had to sacrafice a sheep or goat at the temple to get there sins forgiven.

And basically having faith in the death of Jesus Christ is like the same analogy as sacraficing a lamb or goat. We painted our Spiritual heart with the "blood" of Christ so that we can be saved and goto heaven.

That's why. If you remember that girl Casey up in Colombine she was a true Christian not a fake one. She was confronted with a gun and she knew she loved God and so she said "Yes I believe in God." And you know what happened next. True there are Christian who are so scared and ****less and so simple minded that when confronted with a gun they'd probably say "No" because there scared but that is not a true christian, that's a fake christian. It's a complicated matter that's why Im not gonan go into depth in that part.

n2daizo123

12-11-2007, 11:26 PM

Maniac1

12-11-2007, 11:27 PM

ueyedgr8tness

12-11-2007, 11:33 PM

Matthew 24:6, 13-14, "And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations: and then shall the end come."

A little something to leave u with from the BIBLE

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Romans 6:23).

God's Word says, "...I am come that they might have life and that they might have it more abundantly" (John 10:10).

OH snap and what i was really looking for in the bible about this day in time>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Luke 21:20-24 (NIV):
20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations

BABY J

12-11-2007, 11:36 PM

Alex;

Same goes for Jesus Christ. That was God's only Son that was pure; God sacraficed his only Son to forgive everyone's sin. God knew that if he didnt sacrafice his only Son everything that he loved which is me you and everyone else would got straight to hell no matter what. Even being Christian wouldnt helped. And before that in the Old Testament the Christian's had to sacrafice a sheep or goat at the temple to get there sins forgiven.

WHAT F*CKING SACRIFICE????? THAT IS THE PART THAT EVERY1 MISSES!!!! Last time I checked a sacrifice is something that you LOSE/GIVE UP in order to gain something else. Did Jesus not rise? Did God not raise him from the dead? SO A SACRIFICE THAT WAS F*CKING UNDONE IS NOT A SACRIFICE!!! SHEEESH!!! How hard is it to comprehend???

That's why. If you remember that girl Casey up in Colombine she was a true Christian not a fake one. She was confronted with a gun and she knew she loved God and so she said "Yes I believe in God." And you know what happened next. True there are Christian who are so scared and ****less and so simple minded that when confronted with a gun they'd probably say "No" because there scared but that is not a true christian, that's a fake christian. It's a complicated matter that's why Im not gonan go into depth in that part.

What about the true Christian's that died that day? Oh i know - F*CK them b/c God is SOO good that I am alive - and I am all that matters.:rolleyes:

Hulud

12-11-2007, 11:37 PM

Crazy Asian

12-11-2007, 11:43 PM

If god created all and is the higher power, who would send everyone to hell not matter what without the sacrifice of Jesus? Wouldn't the creator be in control of everything? A sacrifice is usually done to please someone else so who would God be trying to please. Seems to me there is someone behind the curtain.

Your question is vague so Ill try to answer it.
Well to us Christian's were born sinners everyone is born sinners and no matter what we do were gonna be always sinners. Due to Adam and Eve eating that apple, ya.

Yes God is control over everything even Satan. Satan litterally has to obey God or else he's done. Basically Satan has a contract with God and basically anyone that's not a Christian or whatever the case might be you can take BUT do not take my true son's and daughter's. Now when God planned everything, he knew that the upcoming world be bigger and more theologically I would say not believing in sacraficing. So he had to sacrafice someone more purer and more holier then a sheep. So he sacraficed his oly Son. That way Satan has no way of getting us Christians.
If you read the Bible Moses did a couple of tricks that God wanted him to do. One of them was to kill the sheep or a goat and paint the blood on the doorway of your house so when they angels come they dont target that house. That's exactly what God planned. When the Judgement Day comes as your remember. God is gonna send his insane diobolical angels and kill everything except the true Christians with the "blood" of Christ on their hearts. He just gonna take them up

There's a difference in sacrafice in paganism and long time ago Christian's. Most paganist religion sacrafice a virgin to please the God and so that they dont feel the wrath of their "God." To us Christian's sacraficing a sheep or goat would be an attestment for our forgivness of our sins. We dont sacrafice to please God they did it for a reason, which was whatever sin they had they would kill a sheep or a goat to get cleansed.

BABY J

12-11-2007, 11:47 PM

* ahem *

http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/showpost.php?p=36334755&postcount=109

Hulud

12-11-2007, 11:47 PM

God is gonna send his insane diobolical angels and kill everything except the true Christians with the "blood" of Christ on their hearts. He just gonna take them up
your "god" sounds awesome...

n2daizo123

12-11-2007, 11:51 PM

So sacrificing Is a way of cleansing sin but the act alone violates the 6th commandment and in turn creates another sin, there for being a never ending cycle. So no matter how many you sacrifice you are still responsible for the previous murder.

Crazy Asian

12-11-2007, 11:51 PM

WHAT F*CKING SACRIFICE????? THAT IS THE PART THAT EVERY1 MISSES!!!! Last time I checked a sacrifice is something that you LOSE/GIVE UP in order to gain something else. Did Jesus not rise? Did God not raise him from the dead? SO A SACRIFICE THAT WAS F*CKING UNDONE IS NOT A SACRIFICE!!! SHEEESH!!! How hard is it to comprehend???

?

"If all this gospel-flying—this power to live in love and forgive those who wrong us—if this is accomplished by the love of God and the death of Jesus, then what does the resurrection of Jesus from the dead add to it?"

To answer this let's look at 1 Corinthians 15:17, "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins."

If Christ Was Not Raised, You're Still in Your Sins

To be "in your sins" is the opposite of being "in Christ." When we are "in Christ," we get what Christ can do for us, namely, eternal life. When we are "in [our] sins," we get what sins can do for us, namely, eternal condemnation and death (Romans 6:20–23).

Paul says, "If Christ has not been raised . . . you are still in your sins." We are still bearing our guilt, still under condemnation, still alienated from God, still unforgiven.

Why Is This So?

But why is this if the death of Jesus satisfied the Father (as we saw last week)? If it's true that "every debt that you ever had has been paid up in full by the blood of the Lamb" (not the resurrection of the Lamb, cf. Romans 5:9; Ephesians 1:7), then why are we still in our sins if the Lamb does not rise from the dead?

The answer—or at least an essential part of the answer—is that the resurrection of Jesus is the reward of his sacrifice. And if the reward is not given, it's because the sacrifice is deficient. And if the sacrifice is deficient, we are still in our sins

What about the true Christian's that died that day? Ya my bad ya they all went to heaven. Easy. There faith is strong and they had neverending love for him so of course there gonna goto heaven. Like I said Im not gonna goto detail between the differences between fake and true christians.

Crazy Asian

12-11-2007, 11:56 PM

n2daizo123

12-11-2007, 11:58 PM

Alright picture this, someone is born in a vegative state and and is put on life support for 25 years. That person lacks the reasoning skills due to massive brain damage and is unable to comprehend anything. That person is a born sinner according to your perspective. The person is unable to to worship god. Is that person destine to hell for the lack of being able to "cleanse" its self of the sins? Why is being born a sin?

Hulud

12-12-2007, 12:00 AM

n2daizo123

12-12-2007, 12:01 AM

Thom's Law
"Nothing can not produce something. If there was ever a time when there was nothing, there would STILL be nothing."

So even a God (which is something) could not be produced by nothing. Therefore, if a God came into being, he must have come out of something. The only "something" which exists now and has always existed is that of energy and/or matter.

So, any God (or anything else) must be, or must have been, the product of something. Everything which is, must be a product of energy and/or matter.

n2daizo123

12-12-2007, 12:03 AM

problem with this is that they should not have been put on life support, gods plan was for them to die early on
So they were born in sin and immediately died in sin so there was no chance from the get go. Why destine someone to hell when there was no actions to pass judgment on.

Hulud

12-12-2007, 12:07 AM

So they were born in sin and immediately died in sin so there was no chance from the get go. Why destine someone to hell when there was no actions to pass judgment on.
hey i didnt say i believed it, i was just pointing out the flaw in the question lol

n2daizo123

12-12-2007, 12:11 AM

hey i didnt say i believed it, i was just pointing out the flaw in the question lol
ok, I like the way I worded in the second post any way. It takes out more of the variables.

n2daizo123

12-12-2007, 12:15 AM

Someone enlighten me on this, Doesn't the bible say something about after everyone is dead there will be a holy war with the angels and believers vs the demons and non believers?

BABY J

12-12-2007, 12:16 AM

"If all this gospel-flying—this power to live in love and forgive those who wrong us—if this is accomplished by the love of God and the death of Jesus, then what does the resurrection of Jesus from the dead add to it?"

To answer this let's look at 1 Corinthians 15:17, "If Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins."

If Christ Was Not Raised, You're Still in Your Sins

To be "in your sins" is the opposite of being "in Christ." When we are "in Christ," we get what Christ can do for us, namely, eternal life. When we are "in [our] sins," we get what sins can do for us, namely, eternal condemnation and death (Romans 6:20–23).

Paul says, "If Christ has not been raised . . . you are still in your sins." We are still bearing our guilt, still under condemnation, still alienated from God, still unforgiven.

Why Is This So?

But why is this if the death of Jesus satisfied the Father (as we saw last week)? If it's true that "every debt that you ever had has been paid up in full by the blood of the Lamb" (not the resurrection of the Lamb, cf. Romans 5:9; Ephesians 1:7), then why are we still in our sins if the Lamb does not rise from the dead?

The answer—or at least an essential part of the answer—is that the resurrection of Jesus is the reward of his sacrifice. And if the reward is not given, it's because the sacrifice is deficient. And if the sacrifice is deficient, we are still in our sins

What about the true Christian's that died that day? Ya my bad ya they all went to heaven. Easy. There faith is strong and they had neverending love for him so of course there gonna goto heaven. Like I said Im not gonna goto detail between the differences between fake and true christians.

WHo wrote that? LOL. Are they in 8th grade or 7th - hard to tell. LOL. Jimminy Xmas. God is the most inefficient person I know - LOL. What a mind f*ck.

If God wants some1 to blindly FOLLOW him w/out proof of who He is, then what makes him any different than David Koresh?

Crazy Asian

12-12-2007, 12:22 AM

Someone enlighten me on this, Doesn't the bible say something about after everyone is dead there will be a holy war with the angels and believers vs the demons and non believers?

You must be reading some insane comic books. In the Bible there's gonna be angels coming down but that's about it. I guess you can say the life were living in there's always a war between demons and angels. You cant do aynthing about..it's just a good vs. evil war.

BABY J

12-12-2007, 12:22 AM

LOl ok smart 1 i will give u a few more:yes:

Ok u have god then u have the devil the BIBLE speaks of both of them.

Now lets say u live on lexus ave,N and 3 streets down there is lacy street all the drug dealer's and bs goe's on down there well your father tells u not to go down there to the store ever but 1 day u go and u end up at the wrong place at the wrong time and get caught up in a shooting and u die.

NOw why didnt your father save u?< because he had warned u not to go down there and on your on will u went without him and end up getting shot,when if u had went with your dad he would of seen the place u were going and kept u from harm.

Now humans were giving the 10 commandments just like your dad told u places not to go if we follow his commandments (his word) we would be safe cause he see the danger that lie's ahead thats why we stay with the word of god the (BIBLE read it alot and u will live a long life)

OK if u didnt get what i was saying thrue all that ima keep it simple and say if u had a gun pointed at me and u killed me were was my god then,all i can say is he put us on this earth for a reason just like your parents had u cause most parents want a kid to raise and have a family.

And if i have done what he wanted me to do on this earth it would be my time to go anyway to a better place called heaven were he say's there will be no sickness or pain so what would i have to loose u tell me:goodjob:

ok you have faith in the miracles, you have faith in the prophecy of the bible, but you dont' have enough faith that god will keep you out of harms way? what the **** are you praying for if you don't believe your HIGHER BEING is answering you if he puts that gun to your head like he mentioned earlier?

Crazy Asian

12-12-2007, 12:23 AM

WHo wrote that? LOL. Are they in 8th grade or 7th - hard to tell. LOL. Jimminy Xmas. God is the most inefficient person I know - LOL. What a mind f*ck.

If God wants some1 to blindly FOLLOW him w/out proof of who He is, then what makes him any different than David Koresh?

Ya sorry Im tryin to rack my brain but I feel like passing out...but ya Ill get back to you on that.

Hulud

12-12-2007, 12:26 AM

ok, I like the way I worded in the second post any way. It takes out more of the variables.
yea it was worded better the second time lol

but i agree with you

thats why the christian god is something i dont believe in and will be null and void within 5k years. just like most other religions.

there is no god that would not allow a person to make good before they die.

if there is only 1 god and it is really like that, i would rather burn for eternity than call it my god

Crazy Asian

12-12-2007, 12:27 AM

ok you have faith in the miracles, you have faith in the prophecy of the bible, but you dont' have enough faith that god will keep you out of harms way? what the **** are you praying for if you don't believe your HIGHER BEING is answering you if he puts that gun to your head like he mentioned earlier?

AGAIN ILL EXPLAIN TOMORROW!!!!

Hulud

12-12-2007, 12:31 AM

AGAIN ILL EXPLAIN TOMORROW!!!!
sounds like someone has some searching for answers to do...

n2daizo123

12-12-2007, 12:31 AM

yea it was worded better the second time lol

but i agree with you

thats why the christian god is something i dont believe in and will be null and void within 5k years. just like most other religions.

there is no god that would not allow a person to make good before they die.

if there is only 1 god and it is really like that, i would rather burn for eternity than call it my god
Thats a good point, As I posted earlier, as science and technology advance religion will be obsolete. If god really did flood the earth and kill all of the people and things not on the boat that would make him a hypocrite for violating his own laws.

Crazy Asian

12-12-2007, 12:35 AM

sounds like someone has some searching for answers to do...

Searching bull crap..Im going to sleep and watching TV. :lmfao:

Hulud

12-12-2007, 12:39 AM

Searching bull crap..Im going to sleep and watching TV. :lmfao:
likely story...

nah man im just ****in with ya

Hulud

12-12-2007, 12:41 AM

Thats a good point, As I posted earlier, as science and technology advance religion will be obsolete. If god really did flood the earth and kill all of the people and things not on the boat that would make him a hypocrite for violating his own laws.
true

my point about the null and void comment is look at the aztecs or greeks or any other religion that not here, they are gone. why? because other things have come up to change the publics view of "god"

n2daizo123

12-12-2007, 12:42 AM

You must be reading some insane comic books. In the Bible there's gonna be angels coming down but that's about it. I guess you can say the life were living in there's always a war between demons and angels. You cant do aynthing about..it's just a good vs. evil war.
I was thinking about Revelations 12 but it was a war with a dragon. That sounds more like a comic book than what i was saying.

n2daizo123

12-12-2007, 12:47 AM

true

my point about the null and void comment is look at the aztecs or greeks or any other religion that not here, they are gone. why? because other things have come up to change the publics view of "god"
Good point. At one point people were worshiping many different gods for many different reasons, like sacrificing a goat for rain and a good harvest. Once science proved the water cycle and the revolution of the earth around the sun, the need for those gods ceased to exist there for a new religion created. Gods are made up to explain the unexplainable. When the unexplained is explained the gods serve no purpose.

n2daizo123

12-12-2007, 12:55 AM

Crazy Asian

12-12-2007, 12:57 AM

I was thinking about Revelations 12 but it was a war with a dragon. That sounds more like a comic book than what i was saying.

Ugh it's a conotation. AND I SAID IM GOING TO SLEEP LEAVE ME ALONE LET ME REST MY BRAIN!!!!

n2daizo123

12-12-2007, 01:00 AM

Ugh it's a conotation. AND I SAID IM GOING TO SLEEP LEAVE ME ALONE LET ME REST MY BRAIN!!!!
If you want to be left alone why reply? Im sure someone else will come in here and defend Christianity.

Crazy Asian

12-12-2007, 01:17 AM

you stated the question at me. Think about it.

BobbyFresco

12-12-2007, 06:59 AM

wow, yea lets think as a child here :lmao:

why do they pay a salary? because they have to support a family. its not like a pastor only shows up on sundays anymore, its an all week thing now.

why do people pay to spread the word? why do you pay for a college education? same answer

The post was made to illustrate the fact that if serving God is your only intent and purpose, monetary gain shoulnd't be an issue.

Thanks for the childish, smart assed comment though.:goodjob:

BobbyFresco

12-12-2007, 07:04 AM

In my opinion, religion was created as a form of government. They both revolve around the same principle, consequences for your actions. Kill some one, go to jail for a while. Kill some one and go to hell for a while. Religion was formed as a way to control people.

I agree completely and I've been saying this same thing for years.
I think religion was constructed to control "morality".:yes:

Hulud

12-12-2007, 08:41 AM

The post was made to illustrate the fact that if serving God is your only intent and purpose, monetary gain shoulnd't be an issue.

Thanks for the childish, smart assed comment though.:goodjob:
it doesnt show that at all :goodjob:

im glad i could follow a childish comment with the same :goodjob: :goodjob:

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 09:04 AM

Not to sound like an ass-hole, but if i had a gun pointed in your face. And you started praying, for god. And I shot you, where was god there?

God never said that Christians would live for ever in this world. Death is actually a punishment for Adam and Eve disobeying God and bringing sin into this world.
This is why Jesus is so wonderful because he took the sting out of death, Death has no power over Christians because my lose of life here is my beginning of live there, in heaven. So to answer your question " where is God if someone shots me for believing in him" He is right there holding me and leading me into eternal life!! :goodjob:

BABY J

12-12-2007, 09:12 AM

Like I said - what a mind-f*ck. And it works, sadly. People hav enever really been able to think on their own anyway -- they needs their minds guided and sculpted -- and religion does just that.

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 09:16 AM

I've heard this same song and dance time and time again. I'm not trying to bash you but at the end of the day, you sound or read in this case, no different than all the ppl that I've heard before you.

no offense, but your hearing the way i feel and if you have heard this over and over again then your hearing the truth about the Gospel of Jesus Christ!!! Now you just have to search your heart and decide if you want to recieve what you hear or reject it. Its your choice Sir! :goodjob:

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 09:19 AM

Like I said - what a mind-f*ck. And it works, sadly. People hav enever really been able to think on their own anyway -- they needs their minds guided and sculpted -- and religion does just that.

How can you say that Christians can't think own our own - just because we choose to believe something that you have rejected? I don't NEED something to believe and guide me!!! I choose something that is REAL and because He is real, then I choose to follow Him, Jesus!

That doesn't make me dumb - that just makes me different from you!

Hulud

12-12-2007, 09:26 AM

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 10:31 AM

He was there!!! You expect him to just kill everyone that is evil? Remember he did that with the flood of Noah but we just still prefer doing evil then good.

Your looking for a God that will let you do what you want to do but then come down and protect everyone else.. News Flash !! Not gonna happen.. Does your God do that??? Does he protect all the innocent people by never letting them die or get hurt? The way God protects us is by not letting this life be the last life, he offers all of us eternal life through Jesus. Even though he doesn't come down and put his hand infront of the bullet - he does recieve us into eternal life.

And trust me He is here for the evil things also. God's hand is at work even to protect those that do not love him but we don't hear that on the news.. we just hear all the distruction.. Remember the people that commented that " I was on my way to work but got caught in traffic, I was at work in the twin towers but i had to leave to go pick up my sick child from the day care... He's there - you just have to pay attention to it.

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 10:55 AM

where was your god during the crusades? where was he during the Nazi regime? where was he during rwanda? where was he during darfur?

or was he not there during the crusades because they were killing muslims?

or was he not there during the nazi regime because hitler was killing jews/gypsies/gays?

THAT is one of my problems with your god, hes there for petty things but not for millions of people

I'm being a smart guy but I don't mean to be a jerk!! Just trying to make a statement>>>
Sounds like you would like to sit down at a table and use a special software to create a god, tell him how you want to live your life and how he should do this, this, and this.. It's been done through out history BUT,

Remember He created you!! You didn't create Him! And you can use that for any god you serve...

And our God has heard our cries during plenty of situations.. where you believe in the bible or not, they are facts.. Moses was a real person and he was choosen to lead the people out of bondage. Jesus was a real person who was crucified for no reason, but to take the sins of the world - that it might be saved. And he was resurrected and there were several witnesses, believers and non believers(which were converted at the sight of Jesus because they knew he had been killed 3 days earlier). And Jesus said that he does not do his work but, the work of the Father - being God. Christians believe in a real person, Jesus. Now, what God do you believe in and where is the evidence of any existance?

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 11:37 AM

Sorry, I can't agree with you!! Christians didn't create their God, neither did Jews!

We both server the same God, Jews just are still waiting for their Messiah to come and us Christians rec'ed him when He came. Jesus is just as real as you an me!

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 11:42 AM

It doesn't supprise me that their is flaw in Religion.. I still can't believe that Catholics charged people to get healed, and lead them to believe that they could buy their way out of hell, etc... But, just like anything - its not 100% pure, meaning without error. It doesn't mean that our God is not Good - it just means that we are still full of sin. I thank God i didn't live back in those days because i would of been killed by the Catholic Church for preaching the truth of the Gospel, that the gift of Christ is free and that only through Jesus can we be forgiven!! So I've heard of what you mentioned above but can't say i'm fully knowledged on it. But, again... doesn't surprise me if its true. I can't believe Catholics still confess their sin to a man and believe they have been forgiven when if they would open the bibles they confess they believe in -- it would tell them that only Jesus can forgive you of your sin.

Maniac1

12-12-2007, 12:07 PM

Jesus is just as real as you an me!This post screams, ignorant! How can you sit here and actually type that, no one has ever seen, felt, or even heard jesus! Some may say, that they do, threw there heart. which in itself is a bunch of crap! But there has never been any hardcore evidence of his existence, yet just because the bible says he's real, than he must be? Seriously, you believe that?

Glides

12-12-2007, 12:07 PM

I'm being a smart guy but I don't mean to be a jerk!! Just trying to make a statement>>>
Sounds like you would like to sit down at a table and use a special software to create a god, tell him how you want to live your life and how he should do this, this, and this.. It's been done through out history BUT,

Remember He created you!! You didn't create Him! And you can use that for any god you serve...

And our God has heard our cries during plenty of situations.. where you believe in the bible or not, they are facts.. Moses was a real person and he was choosen to lead the people out of bondage. Jesus was a real person who was crucified for no reason, but to take the sins of the world - that it might be saved. And he was resurrected and there were several witnesses, believers and non believers(which were converted at the sight of Jesus because they knew he had been killed 3 days earlier). And Jesus said that he does not do his work but, the work of the Father - being God. Christians believe in a real person, Jesus. Now, what God do you believe in and where is the evidence of any existance?

While I admire your beliefs, I can't help but think that you are blind.

Let me point some things out to you. God didn't create us, we created him. How do I know this? Let's look at history. Christianity is nothing but the conglomeration of other religions that it swallowed up during it's rise to where it is now.

Did you know that Christmas was created by the christians to entice pagan worshippers to switch religions without disrupting their current ceremonies? The original christmas celebration is actually the solstice. But the christian church didn't have a solstice celebration, so they made Christmas (the birth of christ) as that holiday. They did that to coincide with the Roman Sun festival, where the sun was reborn and the days became longer.

Christ wasn't burn on Dec 25th, matter of fact, I don't think anywhere in the bible does it actually say when he was born.

But, let's check history shall we, bible history.

The Bible historian Luke tells us that John came baptizing in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar. (Lu 3:1-3) Augustus died on August 17, 14 C.E. On September 15, Tiberius was named emperor by the Roman Senate. The Romans did not use the accession-year system; consequently, the 15th year would run from the latter part of 28 C.E. to the latter part of 29 C.E.

John was six months older than Jesus and began his ministry (evidently in the spring of the year) ahead of Jesus as Jesus’ forerunner, preparing the way. (Lu 1:35, 36) Jesus, whom the Bible indicates was born in the fall of the year, was about 30 years old when he came to John to be baptized. (Lu 3:21-23) Therefore he was baptized, most likely, in the fall, about October of 29 C.E. Counting back 30 years would bring us to the fall of 2 B.C.E. as the time of the human birth of the Son of God. (Compare Lu 3:1, 23 with Daniel’s prophecy of the “seventy weeks” at Da 9:24-27.)

Jesus was “about thirty years old” when he began his ministry as the Christ. So he was about 33 1/2 when he died about the beginning of April, on Passover Day. (Luke 3:21-23; Matthew 26:2) He would have been 34 about six months later, in October. Evidently he was not born in December!

Let's not even get into the fact that more murders, killings, wars, rapes and theft have been attributed to organized religion, Christianity being at the forefront than any other single entity in history. Did you know that the Vatican is one of the most heavily fortified buildings in the world? Matter of fact, it isn't really a building, it is it's own country. It's own laws apply there. They actually have the only ATM's in the world that are in Latin. Neato. It has it's own fighting force, 110 swiss males, unmarried at the time of joining, higly trained in forms of combat. The popes bodygaurd. There are 2 different types of swiss gaurd, the swiss 100, the actual popes bodygaurd and the others that man gates and such.

Christianity was responsible for huge massacres right from the beginning.

Quote from the bible as said by Jesus. "And if any one will not receive you in your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. Truly, I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town." (Matt. 10:14-15).

Also, isn't being christian all about forgiveness? Mark 3:29 "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin "

In 435 AD Rome, it was punishable by death to not be a Christian.
During the Crusades, standard policy upon entering a heretic city was to slay all the non-believers. Jews that holed up in their temples were burned alive.
Neat peice of trivia for you, the term "Kill them all, God will sort them out" came from Papal Legat Arnald Amalric, when he was asked how to tell the faithful from the non-faithful during his attack on the the city of Beziers because they dared translate the bible into the language for the common man. The army was raised by Pope Innocent III.

Let's not even get started on the Inquisition, Reformation, the Salem witch trials and a multitude of other holy killings that Christianity are responsible for.

You god is a violent god, an exclusive god who rules by fear. Fear of hell and divine power. But yet, he is a god that humans created, not the other way around. There were plenty of gods around long before Christ. Matter of fact, a god that predates christ by a huge amount is Zeus, might interesting who Christ looks like isn't it?

But of course none of this will even register with you i'm sure, just as it didn't with my sister. Faith is blinding.

Maniac1

12-12-2007, 12:11 PM

Glides, A+ :goodjob:

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 12:56 PM

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 01:12 PM

This post screams, ignorant! How can you sit here and actually type that, no one has ever seen, felt, or even heard jesus! Some may say, that they do, threw there heart. which in itself is a bunch of crap! But there has never been any hardcore evidence of his existence, yet just because the bible says he's real, than he must be? Seriously, you believe that?

The only one sounding ignorant is the only one screaming ignorant!!

Prove to me that He didn't exist!!! And prove to me that through my spirit I don't feel him, leading me and guiding me with the holy spirit.

All of this sounds like know sense to those that don't believe but to us that do know Him.. Its everything.

It would be like me trying to prove to a person that has never owned more than $1000 dollars in his life that there is a $100,000 Dollar Bill..
even though it doesn't exist today, last printed in 1934 - it does exist.
Did you ever lay your hands on one? No, but because the government said it existed you believe it or atleast don't question it.

Truth is - I'm not going to call you ignorant because you don't believe in what i do. I'll pray for you though.. just kidding - that always kills none believers...

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 01:16 PM

While I admire your beliefs, I can't help but think that you are blind.

Let me point some things out to you. God didn't create us, we created him. How do I know this? Let's look at history. Christianity is nothing but the conglomeration of other religions that it swallowed up during it's rise to where it is now.

Did you know that Christmas was created by the christians to entice pagan worshippers to switch religions without disrupting their current ceremonies? The original christmas celebration is actually the solstice. But the christian church didn't have a solstice celebration, so they made Christmas (the birth of christ) as that holiday. They did that to coincide with the Roman Sun festival, where the sun was reborn and the days became longer.

Christ wasn't burn on Dec 25th, matter of fact, I don't think anywhere in the bible does it actually say when he was born.

But, let's check history shall we, bible history.

The Bible historian Luke tells us that John came baptizing in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar. (Lu 3:1-3) Augustus died on August 17, 14 C.E. On September 15, Tiberius was named emperor by the Roman Senate. The Romans did not use the accession-year system; consequently, the 15th year would run from the latter part of 28 C.E. to the latter part of 29 C.E.

John was six months older than Jesus and began his ministry (evidently in the spring of the year) ahead of Jesus as Jesus’ forerunner, preparing the way. (Lu 1:35, 36) Jesus, whom the Bible indicates was born in the fall of the year, was about 30 years old when he came to John to be baptized. (Lu 3:21-23) Therefore he was baptized, most likely, in the fall, about October of 29 C.E. Counting back 30 years would bring us to the fall of 2 B.C.E. as the time of the human birth of the Son of God. (Compare Lu 3:1, 23 with Daniel’s prophecy of the “seventy weeks” at Da 9:24-27.)

Jesus was “about thirty years old” when he began his ministry as the Christ. So he was about 33 1/2 when he died about the beginning of April, on Passover Day. (Luke 3:21-23; Matthew 26:2) He would have been 34 about six months later, in October. Evidently he was not born in December!

Let's not even get into the fact that more murders, killings, wars, rapes and theft have been attributed to organized religion, Christianity being at the forefront than any other single entity in history. Did you know that the Vatican is one of the most heavily fortified buildings in the world? Matter of fact, it isn't really a building, it is it's own country. It's own laws apply there. They actually have the only ATM's in the world that are in Latin. Neato. It has it's own fighting force, 110 swiss males, unmarried at the time of joining, higly trained in forms of combat. The popes bodygaurd. There are 2 different types of swiss gaurd, the swiss 100, the actual popes bodygaurd and the others that man gates and such.

Christianity was responsible for huge massacres right from the beginning.

Quote from the bible as said by Jesus. "And if any one will not receive you in your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. Truly, I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town." (Matt. 10:14-15).

Also, isn't being christian all about forgiveness? Mark 3:29 "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin "

In 435 AD Rome, it was punishable by death to not be a Christian.
During the Crusades, standard policy upon entering a heretic city was to slay all the non-believers. Jews that holed up in their temples were burned alive.
Neat peice of trivia for you, the term "Kill them all, God will sort them out" came from Papal Legat Arnald Amalric, when he was asked how to tell the faithful from the non-faithful during his attack on the the city of Beziers because they dared translate the bible into the language for the common man. The army was raised by Pope Innocent III.

Let's not even get started on the Inquisition, Reformation, the Salem witch trials and a multitude of other holy killings that Christianity are responsible for.

You god is a violent god, an exclusive god who rules by fear. Fear of hell and divine power. But yet, he is a god that humans created, not the other way around. There were plenty of gods around long before Christ. Matter of fact, a god that predates christ by a huge amount is Zeus, might interesting who Christ looks like isn't it?

But of course none of this will even register with you i'm sure, just as it didn't with my sister. Faith is blinding.

For someone that doesn't believe in God and also believes that I made him up.. You sure do hold him accountable for a lot of things..

Here is a way that you can prove to your self if he exists..
The bible says that God said "If you seek me you shall find me"
Take the time that your curseing him to seek him and if you don't find him, i mean if you really really open your heart and mind and don't find him - then you'll have your answer - but i think then your affraid that you might loose control of all the knowledge that you have found to be false. But hey, what do you have to loose except life.

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 01:24 PM

Maniac1

12-12-2007, 01:28 PM

The only one sounding ignorant is the only one screaming ignorant!! Sorry, I don't understand...

Prove to me that He didn't exist!!! And prove to me that through my spirit I don't feel him, leading me and guiding me with the holy spirit. What you consider as "he" isn't exactly what you would call someone a leader. He doesn't lead you to happiness nor any of the nice things people desire. You calm to believe in jesus, it's like me believing in the tooth fairy. I have never seen her, but I was told as a child that she existed so it must be true. But how, if I never saw her? So now that im alittle more grown up, I realize that those childish storys were nothing more than that, storys.

All of this sounds like know sense to those that don't believe but to us that do know Him.. Its everything. So you would sacrifice your life for him? I mean you would do anything, right? But isn't taking your own life, considered a sin?

It would be like me trying to prove to a person that has never owned more than $1000 dollars in his life that there is a $100,000 Dollar Bill..
even though it doesn't exist today, last printed in 1934 - it does exist.
Did you ever lay your hands on one? No, but because the government said it existed you believe it or atleast don't question it. If there is proof of it once existing, than why question it? Unlike Jesus, there hasn't been any proof to his existence, nothing but a few fictional storys here and there.

Truth is - I'm not going to call you ignorant because you don't believe in what i do. I'll pray for you though.. just kidding - that always kills none believers...If you pray for something you truely desire, I mean REALLY pray. And you never receive it, what happens then? Do you stop praying and move on, or do you continue wasting your time begging a man made figure til you receive it?

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 01:33 PM

Glides,

come on man.. this is your quote below!!!!!

Christianity was responsible for huge massacres right from the beginning.

Quote from the bible as said by Jesus. "And if any one will not receive you in your words, shake off the dust from your feet as you leave that house or town. Truly, I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town." (Matt. 10:14-15).

Also, isn't being christian all about forgiveness? Mark 3:29 "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin "

You don't honestly believe in that statement made by Jesus he was saying to go and kill people that don't rec' the gospel? first of all, he is referring to them not rec'ing you into there town with the good news of Jesus.. he is saying that if they don't rec' you then - don't bother.. the news has been offered to them and as far as the other statement about at the end of times.. the reason it will be harder on them is because they didn't rec' the news of God from any of his profits and now he sends his own Son and they reject him.. How much more harder will they be delt with..

Last one.. holy spirit and the forgiveness part. Thats truely hard for us all but God has said that he will not forgive those that blaspheme the holy spirit - You'll have to take that up with God himself - I just know I'm not going to mock him. But if it makes you feel better, those that choose satin will not be forgiven either.

Glides

12-12-2007, 01:33 PM

Well, your true about it never registering with me.. I'm a believer for life.. As far as the facts.. I stated myself that I'm aware of Christians not always doing the right things.. especially the Catholic Roman Church - but that doesn't prove that God doesn't exist. Your saying that there were other gods before Jesus, there are several gods that people created and they have never done anything for them unless they imagined it. But the one and only True GOD has always been here! Even Jesus was with him in the beginning before the world was created.. we just didn't get to see him in man forum until Jesus was born..

You contradict yourself there.

You are saying that there were other gods that didn't do anything unless the person that worshipped them imagined it. I say the exact same thing about you and your religion. Prove me wrong.

You say that the one and true god has always been there. How can you be so bold as to say that someone elses gods were imagined and yours is not? That takes some spiritual balls my friend for you to be so conceited as to think that yours is the only one and true way. So Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and all of them are just screwed? Laugh, take your head out of the clouds.

You cannot, and will never be able to prove me wrong simply for one reason, there is no concrete proof of any single thing that god has done. You say he created the earth, I say it was created naturally over billions of years. You say that God created life, sicence has proven life's creation. Everything that you claim to say is a miracle of God has been proven by science. Prove to me there is a heaven. You can't and you won't be able too. The only person you can prove it to is yourself and other believers of your faith. Outside of your faith, it is all nothing.

Now, the downside to this scientific thing is that there is no wonder and magic left in the world. One thing Christ had going for him was magic. Christians attacked Harry Potter for witchcraft, but wasn't god a magician in the truest sense of the word? Having magical powers to turn water into wine, split bread to feed thousands. All of that is magic or sorcery.

Lets check some out shall we.

Exodus 14: Moses parts the Red Sea -with a serpent/staff. Joshua 3:16: Joshua parts the Jordan -when feet of Priests touched water

Kings 17:1; 18:45: Elijah commands rain (see also James 5:17) - pretty much a Wizardry thing

John 2:9: Jesus turns water to wine - Like Dionysus , god of Wine before him, and celebrated by "the Church" on the same day that Dionysus did it. Interesting. Borrowed from another religion yet again.

Let's not even start on Revelations and it's incredible likenesses to magic. To any child who read revelations and watched Harry Potter, they are one in the same. But yet religious nuts and bible thumpers are quick to trounce on Harry Potter, along with the Pope and condemn it.

When all is said and done, all you have to fall on is your faith in a book that was edited by Romans to include what they wanted to you read and know. You are a slave to your religion and in the hopefully not false prophecies of a religion that is responsible for more murders throughout history than any other single entity combined. But sleep better knowing that you can sling your deadly religion as much as you want, commit any sin you want short of blaspheming the holy spirit and then go to church, toss a few dollars in the collection plate and ask forgiveness. That makes it all better. Money and grovelling.

Maniac1

12-12-2007, 01:37 PM

Hey Alex,

What did you think us Christians believed in???
You do understand that not only do we believe that he was a real person but, hold on - you might want to sit down for this one - our entire faith is based on the fact that he died and was resurrected on the 3rd day.
So its def. not a ignorant statement!Have you watched the video I posted? There are like three links in this thread. Why don't you get yourself a nice glass of orange juice and a nice snack and enjoy the show. It'll explain that three day resurrection theory christains believe in.

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 01:48 PM

You contradict yourself there.

You are saying that there were other gods that didn't do anything unless the person that worshipped them imagined it. I say the exact same thing about you and your religion. Prove me wrong.

You say that the one and true god has always been there. How can you be so bold as to say that someone elses gods were imagined and yours is not? That takes some spiritual balls my friend for you to be so conceited as to think that yours is the only one and true way. So Muslims, Jews, Buddhists and all of them are just screwed? Laugh, take your head out of the clouds.

You cannot, and will never be able to prove me wrong simply for one reason, there is no concrete proof of any single thing that god has done. You say he created the earth, I say it was created naturally over billions of years. You say that God created life, sicence has proven life's creation. Everything that you claim to say is a miracle of God has been proven by science. Prove to me there is a heaven. You can't and you won't be able too. The only person you can prove it to is yourself and other believers of your faith. Outside of your faith, it is all nothing.

Now, the downside to this scientific thing is that there is no wonder and magic left in the world. One thing Christ had going for him was magic. Christians attacked Harry Potter for witchcraft, but wasn't god a magician in the truest sense of the word? Having magical powers to turn water into wine, split bread to feed thousands. All of that is magic or sorcery.

Lets check some out shall we.

Exodus 14: Moses parts the Red Sea -with a serpent/staff. Joshua 3:16: Joshua parts the Jordan -when feet of Priests touched water

Kings 17:1; 18:45: Elijah commands rain (see also James 5:17) - pretty much a Wizardry thing

John 2:9: Jesus turns water to wine - Like Dionysus , god of Wine before him, and celebrated by "the Church" on the same day that Dionysus did it. Interesting. Borrowed from another religion yet again.

Let's not even start on Revelations and it's incredible likenesses to magic. To any child who read revelations and watched Harry Potter, they are one in the same. But yet religious nuts and bible thumpers are quick to trounce on Harry Potter, along with the Pope and condemn it.

When all is said and done, all you have to fall on is your faith in a book that was edited by Romans to include what they wanted to you read and know. You are a slave to your religion and in the hopefully not false prophecies of a religion that is responsible for more murders throughout history than any other single entity combined. But sleep better knowing that you can sling your deadly religion as much as you want, commit any sin you want short of blaspheming the holy spirit and then go to church, toss a few dollars in the collection plate and ask forgiveness. That makes it all better. Money and grovelling.

We could go back and forward about what is real and what is not real.. You believe what you belive and I don't consider you dumb for it.. However, I do believe that there is only one way to heaven - Through Jesus Christ. I'm not trying to be ballsey - its just what i believe. I don't believe that just because you choose to believe in anything God is going to give you a get into heaven free card.. You have to believe in him and rec' his son Jesus. As far as the religion... I don't believe that I can do any thing i want to and just ask for forgivness and all is well.. Truely God does forgive us because we believe in him but we can't just act like fools other wise it proves that we really don't believe in him or worshop him.. I'm not a slave to my belief, I'm a son and a child of God..

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 02:01 PM

Sorry, I don't understand...

What you consider as "he" isn't exactly what you would call someone a leader. He doesn't lead you to happiness nor any of the nice things people desire. You calm to believe in jesus, it's like me believing in the tooth fairy. I have never seen her, but I was told as a child that she existed so it must be true. But how, if I never saw her? So now that im alittle more grown up, I realize that those childish storys were nothing more than that, storys.

So you would sacrifice your life for him? I mean you would do anything, right? But isn't taking your own life, considered a sin?

If there is proof of it once existing, than why question it? Unlike Jesus, there hasn't been any proof to his existence, nothing but a few fictional storys here and there.

If you pray for something you truely desire, I mean REALLY pray. And you never receive it, what happens then? Do you stop praying and move on, or do you continue wasting your time begging a man made figure til you receive it?

Of course He is a good leader.. he leads us into plenty of good things.. Even the fruit of the spirit is full of great things, gentleness, meekness, forgiveness, love, kindness, etc....

I would give my life for Jesus!! in a heart beat!! but I wouldn't take my life.. :umno: Thats for idiots.. No one needs to give there life but, if someone said I'll shoot you if you believe in Jesus or If you say you don't believe in him I'll let you live.. I would be dead! And proud to be. I would never say i don't believe in my SAVIOR!!

Praying.. its not a magic lamp that you wish with and get all your desires.. other wise I would be rich... There are three responses to your prayers.. YES, NO, and WAIT.. God knows whats best for you and if what you desire is what you really need. I prayed for a new acura cl when they first came out but I never got one.. reason probably being - I coudn't afford it and I would of probably gotten it repossed..

Glides

12-12-2007, 02:03 PM

We could go back and forward about what is real and what is not real.. You believe what you belive and I don't consider you dumb for it.. However, I do believe that there is only one way to heaven - Through Jesus Christ. I'm not trying to be ballsey - its just what i believe. I don't believe that just because you choose to believe in anything God is going to give you a get into heaven free card.. You have to believe in him and rec' his son Jesus. As far as the religion... I don't believe that I can do any thing i want to and just ask for forgivness and all is well.. Truely God does forgive us because we believe in him but we can't just act like fools other wise it proves that we really don't believe in him or worshop him.. I'm not a slave to my belief, I'm a son and a child of God..

Understood. It is nice to actually talk to a christian that isn't oppressive. There are so few of them.

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 02:09 PM

Have you watched the video I posted? There are like three links in this thread. Why don't you get yourself a nice glass of orange juice and a nice snack and enjoy the show. It'll explain that three day resurrection theory christains believe in.

No i watched a little of it but just a lot of killing and stuff i don't believe.. but trust me i'm sure I've heard it if its got to do with Jesus not rising from the dead...

I've been through too much and he has always been there for me because i called on Him.. No one could ever take that away from me!

Even when i don't deserver his mercy and grace - He still keeps working with me. There is nothing like the Love of Jesus!

I love him with all that I am and if that makes me stupid, dump, blind, crazy, then charge me guilty! :goodjob:

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 02:10 PM

Understood. It is nice to actually talk to a christian that isn't oppressive. There are so few of them.

I agree, and even though we have different beliefs - GLIDES, I respect you!

Maniac1

12-12-2007, 02:12 PM

Of course He is a good leader.. he leads us into plenty of good things.. Even the fruit of the spirit is full of great things, gentleness, meekness, forgiveness, love, kindness, etc....

I would give my life for Jesus!! in a heart beat!! but I wouldn't take my life.. :umno: Thats for idiots.. No one needs to give there life but, if someone said I'll shoot you if you believe in Jesus or If you say you don't believe in him I'll let you live.. I would be dead! And proud to be. I would never say i don't believe in my SAVIOR!!

Praying.. its not a magic lamp that you wish with and get all your desires.. other wise I would be rich... There are three responses to your prayers.. YES, NO, and WAIT.. God knows whats best for you and if what you desire is what you really need. I prayed for a new acura cl when they first came out but I never got one.. reason probably being - I coudn't afford it and I would of probably gotten it repossed..Things never seemed to flow nicely for me, I used to pray as a child.. yeah I did. I was rasied as a catholic, so I always thought life would be something that was full of happiness and that evil was nothing but a word. I learned the hard way, that not a single thing church taught me was true. I remember praying for a certain thing, almost every night as a child. I would sometimes even cry, that desire of mine. Never came, so I stopped. I learned that if you want something, you have to work for it and earn it yourself. God has never done anything for me, nothing that could be considered a gift of the lord.
You keeping saying the same thing over and over again. I can't wait to see how you react to the new inventions human kind will be coming up with in the future, we will be able to bring back the dead. Of course if they've only been gone for a certain time. We will live longer, will know alot more than we do now. We will reach a stage were religion would be nothing more than a memory.

Glides

12-12-2007, 02:12 PM

I agree, and even though we have different beliefs - GLIDES, I respect you!

You too man. Nothing wrong with beliefs as long as you respect that others have different ones. That's why these discussions are always bad at any sort of social gathering because they always end up bad.

Wurm

12-12-2007, 02:28 PM

Hulud

12-12-2007, 02:38 PM

Hulud

12-12-2007, 02:41 PM

Here is a way that you can prove to your self if he exists..
The bible says that God said "If you seek me you shall find me"
wow.

you are wrong on that statement. i had searched, you knwo what i found?

nothing that resembles YOUR god :goodjob:

Glides

12-12-2007, 03:20 PM

Hulud

12-12-2007, 03:21 PM

180% turns are great.
what is a 180 percent turn? :thinking:

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 03:23 PM

Things never seemed to flow nicely for me, I used to pray as a child.. yeah I did. I was rasied as a catholic, so I always thought life would be something that was full of happiness and that evil was nothing but a word. I learned the hard way, that not a single thing church taught me was true. I remember praying for a certain thing, almost every night as a child. I would sometimes even cry, that desire of mine. Never came, so I stopped. I learned that if you want something, you have to work for it and earn it yourself. God has never done anything for me, nothing that could be considered a gift of the lord.
You keeping saying the same thing over and over again. I can't wait to see how you react to the new inventions human kind will be coming up with in the future, we will be able to bring back the dead. Of course if they've only been gone for a certain time. We will live longer, will know alot more than we do now. We will reach a stage were religion would be nothing more than a memory.

Alex, I'm sorry that things happened the way they did for you brother. I know its hard to pray and feel like your prayers never get answered but we have to remember that we can't control God and He doesn't control us. It sounds like you have been hurt and I wish it was something that i could do to reverse that! I just want you to know this - God is not God because of what he can give us - He is God because He is... I know that it probably doesn't make much sense but, I'm trying to say : we can't just call him God if he gives us everything we want. We have to call him God and know that we may never know why He does what He does. Brother I know that some where in your heart you remember God being there for you, whether is was in your prayers as a child or even just having that feeling that you can't explain. Think back and don't let the worries and messed up things of the world let you forget about the God that accepted you just as you were, asking nothing else of you at the time but that you believe in him. He has already touched you and once you have been touched by God - You may run away but he never lets you go... Its not to late to come back home brother. God Bless. (I hope that all makes some kind of sense, I'm sorry - i got a little emotional listening to what you wrote)

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 03:25 PM

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 03:26 PM

wow.

you are wrong on that statement. i had searched, you knwo what i found?

nothing that resembles YOUR god :goodjob:

So tell me what did you find? I'm curious!! and how did you seek him?

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 03:30 PM

holy side step batman!

why dont you actually answer my questions? oh thats right you cant, apparently.

i want to create god? HA thats funny. why? because i ask questions that hold water in this argument and you have no answer for them?

good one :goodjob:

Also, I'm curious! So what god do you serve? or is it science and if its science whats the belief now.. rock feel from space hit earth - monkeys were born and everything evolved from that? humer me.. its been a while sense i followed science.. forgive any miss spelling..

C22H19N3O4

12-12-2007, 03:40 PM

rock feel from space hit earth - monkeys were born and everything evolved from that?

When is the last time you took a science class?

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 03:51 PM

When is the last time you took a science class?

It's been about 12 years.. thats why i said update me..

I've heard the rock hitting the earth theory and that we were all monkeys and evolved from that.. Science not really one of my interest so If it was discussed - i really didn't pay attention to it. So if you are willing to explain it to me - then i'm listening... :D

C22H19N3O4

12-12-2007, 03:59 PM

It's been about 12 years.. thats why i said update me..

I've heard the rock hitting the earth theory and that we were all monkeys and evolved from that.. Science not really one of my interest so If it was discussed - i really didn't pay attention to it. So if you are willing to explain it to me - then i'm listening... :D

That would take too much time. Just stick with your religious convictions. :D

I do applaud you for being able to stand your ground w/o lashing out as some have in the past. :goodjob:

Maniac1

12-12-2007, 04:02 PM

I do applaud you for being able to stand your ground w/o lashing out as some have in the past. :goodjob:Can't believe I agree with you on something.

JDMEK18

12-12-2007, 04:09 PM

Thanks for the compliment and I try to keep my cool in everything because i learned that angur doesn't move anyone.. only love does.. as girly as that sounds..

Glides

12-12-2007, 04:42 PM

what is a 180 percent turn? :thinking:

Wasn't directed at you, was directed at Wurm.

Hulud

12-12-2007, 05:47 PM

Wasn't directed at you, was directed at Wurm.
oh i know, but did yo mean degree?

cause i dont know what a percent turn was so i was jw

Wurm

12-12-2007, 05:54 PM

180 turn to what lirl

ahabion

12-12-2007, 10:26 PM

where did this thread come from... go a day and BAM there it is...

I don't know why its always Christians being picked apart all the time. There are a lot of other religions out there. I guess whatever is popular... oh well. In any case, believe what you want, its your life... do with it as you want. To each their own.

I myself am a Christian, I would like to think I lead a good example... I don't look down at my atheist, buddhist, taoist, and gnostic friends. I encourage them to continue to believe what they believe in. I encourage them to go to their functions at their place of worship instead of hanging out with me on late Saturday night runs. I believe, within my own self, that those who believe in what they seek, all roads will lead them to God... that is my personal conviction, so they don't need me jamming my beliefs into their throats... heck, Jesus said to Peter (ghetto style) "throw your net on the otherside, you'll catch more fish that way."

God don't need help from Christians or anyone else. The finite will never completely ever understand the infinite.

ThaABomb

12-12-2007, 11:09 PM

Let me start by saying that I am an engineering student who went to an episcopalian elementary and middle school, so I am intimately familiar with both science and religion. I do "practice" science more than I do religion nowadays, so I may be slightly biased. That being said, here we go:

First of all, the whole idea behind "faith" is that someone belives in something, not because there is evidence to support it, but because that is what they fundamentally believe from the depths of their soul. True faith cannot be shaken by a lack of evidence or even by evidence that would disporve the beliefs in question.

Second of all, and more importantly, does it matter if god exists or not? See, I think that peoples' belief in god is more important than the existence of god. Belief in god is a very powerful force. The belief in god causes people to determine the set of ethical values by which they live their lives. The belief in god causes people to go war and kill other people. If even the BELIEF in god is powerful enough to cause all that, does it really matter whether god exists or not?

Maniac1

12-12-2007, 11:31 PM

I'll reply to post's number 188 and 189, tomorrow. Kinda tired, and this will proabably be along one...

ahabion

12-13-2007, 12:53 AM

true

my point about the null and void comment is look at the aztecs or greeks or any other religion that not here, they are gone. why? because other things have come up to change the publics view of "god"

actually these civilizations were conquered. Roman empired trampled Greece and the Aztec/Mayan civilizations fell to western spain and portugese... the greeks later adopted Roman theology into their own, many migrated to Rome. the aztec/mayans... simply killed off or sold to the slave markets.

on a different parallel, look at the native americans... they weren't killed off totally but they still carry their beliefs and culture... and how long ago have they been doing that??? since before the white man showed up thats for sure...

ahabion

12-13-2007, 01:12 AM

Say something off the wall happens and aliens land on earth and make their presence know. In genesis the bible says nothing about extra terrestrials when god created earth. Would the Christians follow ignorance and deny them or deny faith and accept them. Why doesn't genesis mention anything about the other planets?

doesnt say specifically "God created Jupiter.." but it does say, God created the heavens and the Earth.

same thing goes how he creates Man and from man, creates woman (adam and eve) but it doesn't say he creates peggy sue and darlene or anyone else... it says that the children (cain and abel) get wives... so its assumed that God created more people in the world than ONLY adam and eve, tho they may have been the first...

Both of which are irrelevant to what is conveyed within the text and what is trying to be told.

So say if aliens land on earth and make their presence known... soooo.... what? there they are... what do you want us to do about it???

Clegger

12-13-2007, 01:15 AM

ALL HAIL THE GREEK GODS OF ICE PENIS AND BIG BLACK TITS
http://www.freewebs.com/cosmologies/Greek-Gods-and-Monsters-II.gif

ahabion

12-13-2007, 01:37 AM

So... things are good for YOU huh? That's awesome... what about the people that die of hunger and thirst asking God for invisible help that never arrives? You're so f*ckin selfish - just like other Christians. The simple fact is that God is NOT good to a good percentage of the world's population.

Is it God thats not good to a good percentage of the world, or is it a good percentage of the world is NOT good to the rest of the world??? If you claim that its God's fault, then you can say that what you saw was God at work... since it was his fault, based on your statement. So you then acknowledge that there is a God... BUT on the otherhand, lets just say that it was the good percentage of the world NOT good to the rest of the world... then that would take God out of the picture and really give us a sense of responsibility and ownership to the people dying of hunger and thirst... and of course thats not the case because we all love our fellow man... even those dying in the street, or the bum asking for change... right?

You're also forgetting that there are PLENTY of religions... religions that YOU would denounce as not "THE" religion - they get that SAME feeling that you say that you get. So who's right - let me guess, YOU are.:rolleyes:

I don't think she denounced any other religion...

The simple factis that you are product of your environment. I have seen people die in the streets while begging and pleading for invisible help from God that never arrives. I think RELIGION is the worst thing to happen to spirituality. God (if there is one) would be too big to fit inside of 1 religion... yet Christianity is one of the most arrogant of all the religions. Honestly I grew up in church and accepted him as Lord and Savior as kid... after spending 8 years in the military and seeing things that most will NEVER believe could happen is when I had doubts, and have had doubts every since. Am I SPIRITUAL? Yes. I think that most things have a good spirit or a bad spirit. But am I religious? No. Why do you speak English? Most likely b/c your parents did --> you are a product of your environment. Look on your kitchen counter and chances are you use the same dish detergent that your mom did. So here's the skinny... you are born in China (by NO fault of your own, and you are a Buddhist). You die and go to hell b/c of that? I am NOT buying the RELIGIOUS separation that exists... if God said "come as you are" then why are Christians trying to "convert" others to Christianity? I get it God can do ANYTHING - anything except save people from other countries and other religions. Guess he's not al ALL mighty afterall. And even Christians have MANY seprations in their own religion. Ask a Presbyterian why they are Presbyterian and they will most likely not be able to answer. In fact, ask them why they are Presbyterian vs Methodist and chances are they will not even be able to tell you what the difference is. Fickle crowd, and as humans we always will be. There is not a preacher on Earth that has told me anything more than what a good mom and dad can tell me. Don't steal? No ****! I do not need a preacher to tell me good common sense about treating others right. I could go on...

Bottom line, if you were adopted at birth by a Japanese family, chances are greater than not that you'd 1) speak Japanese and 2) be a Buddhist and SWEAR by Buddhism as much as you swear by Christianity today.

if you are really saying that you are a by product of the environment around you, thats about half the truth... because there comes a time in your life that you MAKE CHOICES on who you are and who you want to be... just because my parents raised us up in the projects and we lived on welfare, does not mean I will too...

I grew up a preacher's Kid, do i say or lay claim to others that i have my fathers faith? NO... because I found my own faith and my own truth to life. I hated church growing up because it was redundant and boring... but as i grew older and learned to make choices, I decided who I wanted to be and what I wanted to believe, not my parents.

Maniac1

12-13-2007, 11:12 AM

God don't need help from Christians or anyone else. The finite will never completely ever understand the infinite.Actually when you really think about it, God needs every humans help. Cause without the thought of his existence he will no longer exist. Without believers the "mighty" savior would be nothing more than another myth, along a long line of myths that have been taught in the past.
The churches all over the world would fall apart if they didn't have the help from anyone. Our money, is what holds them up, running, it pays their electrical bills, water bills, ect. So your comment holds no true facts.

Maniac1

12-13-2007, 11:22 AM

Second of all, and more importantly, does it matter if god exists or not? See, I think that peoples' belief in god is more important than the existence of god. Belief in god is a very powerful force. The belief in god causes people to determine the set of ethical values by which they live their lives. The belief in god causes people to go war and kill other people. If even the BELIEF in god is powerful enough to cause all that, does it really matter whether god exists or not?It's important to a certain extent. For those that believe in something that hasn't been scientifically proven to exist or to have ever existed, must been shown their waste of time trying to achieve something that will not be awarded at the end. Some may believe they will, others like myself don't. I believe that as long as you don't live a life of doing mean and harmful things there is no reason you can be considered evil. Although I haven't killed anyone, im sure some activity's I've done would put me in a category that most christians, catholics or whatever would dislike.

bu villain

12-13-2007, 07:25 PM

ahabion

12-13-2007, 07:54 PM

Actually when you really think about it, God needs every humans help. Cause without the thought of his existence he will no longer exist. Without believers the "mighty" savior would be nothing more than another myth, along a long line of myths that have been taught in the past.
The churches all over the world would fall apart if they didn't have the help from anyone. Our money, is what holds them up, running, it pays their electrical bills, water bills, ect. So your comment holds no true facts.

it does hold true that God does not need anyone, especially Christians, because as many other Christians know, there was nothing to begin with anyway, and yet He still already existed.

Don't confuse God with churches, because the church (in its physical form) is only a place of fellowship and communion for those ppl to meet. The church, as in a people or community sense, does not need money, electricity, or anything physically to exist. (ie: particularly churchs in poverish places, they need not a building, money, or electricty to function)

ahabion

12-13-2007, 08:06 PM

It's important to a certain extent. For those that believe in something that hasn't been scientifically proven to exist or to have ever existed, must been shown their waste of time trying to achieve something that will not be awarded at the end.

In all reality, the beginning of life has yet to be scientifically proven. Even based on the Big Bang theory and evolution itself has yet to still be scientifically proven, because for scientist and others alike, there has to be definitive proof of what can be seen and witnessed. No one was there to witness the first enzymes that collected in the pool of slime/mud/whever you wanna call it, and no on was there to examine and witness the evolutionary process of (i dare say) ANY living animal or creature over the expanse of a few millenia. If we came from apes or cows from some type of dinosaur, or anything else, why are we carbon dating fossils of dinosaurs (that existed 65 billion years ago) and yet can not find the evolutionary skeletal remains of everything else inbetween (the evolutionary changes from for example: dino to cow?)

Some may believe they will, others like myself don't. I believe that as long as you don't live a life of doing mean and harmful things there is no reason you can be considered evil. Although I haven't killed anyone, im sure some activity's I've done would put me in a category that most christians, catholics or whatever would dislike.

if they judge you, thats on their own conciousness and you shouldn't worry about it. Pre-martial sex, sure who hasn't, stealing... plenty of times, cursing and swearing... still do from time to time... no one is perfect... but I think what you are talking about is simply, Morality. Has science proven that?

ahabion

12-13-2007, 08:19 PM

I think its funny when Christians quote the bible and think it means something to someone who is not Christian. I have searched for a logical reason that leads me to believe in God but I have yet to find one.

Whats the meaning of life?
How did we get here?
etc.

To me the answer is "I don't know" not "it was God". Does anyone actually have a logical path that leads to God?

Logically, we can accept that most things in the world happen naturally or meaning that it is of nature. But I do object to the assumption that anything that might be outside of nature is ruled out of the conversation, [such as God.] That's an impoverished view of the kinds of questions we humans can ask, such as "Why am I here?", "What happens after we die?", "Is there a God?" If you refuse to acknowledge their appropriateness, you end up with a zero probability of God after examining the natural world because it doesn't convince you on a proof basis. But if your mind is open about whether God might exist, you can point to aspects of the universe that are consistent with that conclusion.
-Francis Collins- a geneticist, he headed a multinational 2,400-scientist team that co-mapped the 3 billion biochemical letters of our genetic blueprint

Maniac1

12-13-2007, 10:08 PM

it does hold true that God does not need anyone, especially Christians, because as many other Christians know, there was nothing to begin with anyway, and yet He still already existed.Again, how is there any truth to that statement? Without the teaching of his existence there wouldn't be anything to worship, therfore nothing there but a memory. Lets use this as an example; You have a dollar bill saved under a vase. At first you know that its there, so you keep on thinking about it, but over time you slowly start to forgot about it and reach a point were you no longer even look at the vase. Same with the existence of god or jesus christ, if people slowly start to forgot about him so too will the belief fade.

Don't confuse God with churches, because the church (in its physical form) is only a place of fellowship and communion for those ppl to meet. The church, as in a people or community sense, does not need money, electricity, or anything physically to exist. (ie: particularly churchs in poverish places, they need not a building, money, or electricty to function)There is some truth to this. But as im sure you know, comfort is very important to people now adays. So without these features(electricity, water, air conditioning) slowly people will start to get fade away from there. In other countries that are unfortunate to have some of things we have here, are the ones with a stronger faith. Still you don't see pastors going around praying for free now, you must contribute alittle money for their service.

In all reality, the beginning of life has yet to be scientifically proven. Even based on the Big Bang theory and evolution itself has yet to still be scientifically proven, because for scientist and others alike, there has to be definitive proof of what can be seen and witnessed. No one was there to witness the first enzymes that collected in the pool of slime/mud/whever you wanna call it, and no on was there to examine and witness the evolutionary process of (i dare say) ANY living animal or creature over the expanse of a few millenia. If we came from apes or cows from some type of dinosaur, or anything else, why are we carbon dating fossils of dinosaurs (that existed 65 billion years ago) and yet can not find the evolutionary skeletal remains of everything else inbetween (the evolutionary changes from for example: dino to cow?)You're right, evolution and the big bang theory haven't been physically or scientifically proven, but there have been clues about there exixtence. Evolution threw our fossil remains and the big bang threw the stars moving away from each other. We did NOT evolved from dinosaurs or cows. Dinosaurs and other reptiles existed way before some mammals. Around 65 million, not billion. The earth is thought to be only 4 billion years old. Anyways, sure there were rodents, but nothing big enough to give spark to actually primate evolution.

Answer me this. Do you believe that the earth was hit by a meteorite?

if they judge you, thats on their own conciousness and you shouldn't worry about it. Pre-martial sex, sure who hasn't, stealing... plenty of times, cursing and swearing... still do from time to time... no one is perfect... but I think what you are talking about is simply, Morality. Has science proven that?Has science proven morality? Morality is nothing more than rules, lessons, and actions one is taught growing up. Nothing to prove there but the fact that others grow up differently due to their surroundings.

ahabion

12-13-2007, 11:57 PM

Again, how is there any truth to that statement? Without the teaching of his existence there wouldn't be anything to worship, therfore nothing there but a memory. Lets use this as an example; You have a dollar bill saved under a vase. At first you know that its there, so you keep on thinking about it, but over time you slowly start to forgot about it and reach a point were you no longer even look at the vase. Same with the existence of god or jesus christ, if people slowly start to forgot about him so too will the belief fade.

Um... let me try it this way... but first the overall statement is, God began with nothing, then he created everything including man, and then had something... but even when he had nothing, he still was God and so he made something to call his own...

now for the example... remember in the matrix 1, Neo walked into the Oracle's apt and saw those kids practicing... and the kid said, "there is no spoon." Its almost like that to where the matrix made you think it was there, but it really wasnt... it was physical, Neo saw it, touched it, made it bend. but, according to the movie, it wasn't real. The matrix existed, regardless if anyone ever knew about it, it was still present and all around and the machines made changes to the matrix as they saw fit. Come to find out later in sequels, the machines purposefully made people concious of the matrix, just to start the whole cycle over and over again.

Still you don't see pastors going around praying for free now, you must contribute alittle money for their service.

Its a job, gotta make a living some how... even if the earnings are meager... for my dad, he only made 600/month... that was being a full time pastor, prepping sermons every Sunday morning and evening service, going to ppls houses to pray for their families and sick loved ones... we grew up on welfare... put it simply, my childhood wasn't very... abundant. But you take what cards your dealt and do your best to make the best of it all.

Answer me this. Do you believe that the earth was hit by a meteorite?

I'm sure astroids have of course hit the earth, but if we're talkinag about Armaggedon type of astroid... its hard to say... maybe maybe not... supposedly thats what brought on the death of dino's and into the ice age.

Do i think that it was the start of it all? Nope, I myself don't think so.

BuBBa DRiFT

12-14-2007, 12:20 PM

Glides

12-14-2007, 01:31 PM

who gives a **** about what someone believes in the only thing that should matter to you is your own beliefs.

No i dont believe in god but I wont down someone just because they need something more to help them through this ****hole we call life

That 180 degree (Thanks Hulud :D) turn.

You start out the post like Billy badass by saying you don't care a crap about someone elses beliefs, but then you turn 180 degrees and say you won't down on someone (after you just did) and sugar coat it. If you don't care, you don't care. By saying you don't care about others beliefs you down on them right there.

It was meant as a funny though, didn't think I was going to have to provide a play by. :)

Maniac1

12-14-2007, 01:40 PM

my theory is your sister is much smarter than you and your counter manipulation of your own opinion shows you know nothing about the topic to even be on the same tier to argue about it in the first place.

i mean that in the best possible way of course.I won't argue the fact that my little sister is smarter than I am. Cause I know it, she hasn't made any stupid decisions as I did growing up. She is on her way to collage, something I never even thought about. She didn't make the blog, she found it and copied and pasted it. I thought it was col, so I thought I'd share.

If you're not going to add your thoughts or opinions on this matter, just leave.

Maniac1

12-14-2007, 01:44 PM

Um... let me try it this way... but first the overall statement is, God began with nothing, then he created everything including man, and then had something... but even when he had nothing, he still was God and so he made something to call his own...

now for the example... remember in the matrix 1, Neo walked into the Oracle's apt and saw those kids practicing... and the kid said, "there is no spoon." Its almost like that to where the matrix made you think it was there, but it really wasnt... it was physical, Neo saw it, touched it, made it bend. but, according to the movie, it wasn't real. The matrix existed, regardless if anyone ever knew about it, it was still present and all around and the machines made changes to the matrix as they saw fit. Come to find out later in sequels, the machines purposefully made people concious of the matrix, just to start the whole cycle over and over again.

Its a job, gotta make a living some how... even if the earnings are meager... for my dad, he only made 600/month... that was being a full time pastor, prepping sermons every Sunday morning and evening service, going to ppls houses to pray for their families and sick loved ones... we grew up on welfare... put it simply, my childhood wasn't very... abundant. But you take what cards your dealt and do your best to make the best of it all.

I'm sure astroids have of course hit the earth, but if we're talkinag about Armaggedon type of astroid... its hard to say... maybe maybe not... supposedly thats what brought on the death of dino's and into the ice age.

Do i think that it was the start of it all? Nope, I myself don't think so.You and I both know if we wanted too, we could keep this up til one of used failed to come up with anything worth replying to. You made some very god points in all of your posts, im sure I did as well. But I'll see what other people have to say about this, and I'll just read.

Thanks for giving me nice posts to actually use some thought for once. :) +1

Glides

12-14-2007, 02:14 PM

it does hold true that God does not need anyone, especially Christians, because as many other Christians know, there was nothing to begin with anyway, and yet He still already existed.

This statement just pulled me back in here.

You are completely and totally wrong in that entire statement. Amazing.

Without people to worship the divine or a diety, the diety would cease to be a presence in the collective conscience of the people. The people would move on to other sources to fill the missing divine and you have another in a long line of religions. I still find it quite comical that Christians are so conceited as to claim that God created the world but yet Chrisianity is but a blip on the collective religion radar.

Roughly 2007 years ago, Christianity was formed. I'm sure there were ramblings before that date but that is the date most commonly used (like our calendar). Before that it was all sorts of other religions. All Christianity has done is drive other religions out and form up the majority under one banner. Without christians, God would cease to exist. No other way around that. Sort of like this "If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound"

So instead of realizing that things had been around MUCH longer than Christianity had been, some christians come up with this theory. Young Earth Creationism. Some crackpots in the religions community believe that Genesis created the earth between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago. Nevermind that carbon dating and any other ways of determining age of things show differently, these people have decided that all of that is false and bunk. They even made a nice, huge little amusement park style ride in middle america, filled with Disneyland style animatronic gadgetry to teach others this whacked out belief. So instead of learning, they just formulated this to coincide with their beliefs. Amazing what blind faith can do.

Don't confuse God with churches, because the church (in its physical form) is only a place of fellowship and communion for those ppl to meet. The church, as in a people or community sense, does not need money, electricity, or anything physically to exist. (ie: particularly churchs in poverish places, they need not a building, money, or electricty to function)

You are wrong....again.

I would have expected more thought out of you than this, especially with you being the son of a pastor. Without the church, much of what you currently call Christianity would not be near as large as it is. Not only does a Pastor need monety to survive because as one person stated in this thread earlier, church is not one day a week, it is all week. That would not allow the pastor to make any other form uf sustanance. All Christians would love to believe that the word of god is nourishment enough, but try that for 3 months and get back to me.

Not only do the masses need a figurehead to channel their worship through (pastor) they also need a place to do it. A Church is not just a building. It is a focal point for worship, gatherings, prayers, weddings and many other functions. Without power, none of those would last very long. I hate to tell you but even churches in impoverished places need power to perform. Without power, money or a building, religion wouldn't last long. Most people don't do it on their own, they rely on the church to fulfill that spiritual hole in the soul.

The most holy and largest beacon of spiritual light in the world quite possibly is the Vatican. If the Vatican were destroyed tomorrow, Christianity would suffer a huge blow. If all the churches in the world just dissappeared, Christianity would blink out of existance. Sure, there would be some that remembered, but the masses would look to other guidance.

In closing. Most of what most people have said isn't aimed at God, it is aimed at organized religion. Organized religion is that monsterous face that is applied to God because every atrocity that was commited was commited in his name. From the Inquisition to the Crusades to Waco, they were all done in the name of religion. David Koresh's church, the Branch Davidian church was an offshoot of the Seventh Day Adventist church, used the Bible (revelations mostly) to convince his followers that the Government was their enemies. He also told them that God had told him to have sex with all of the women in his following to create his "Special people" or his "House of David". That meant married couples dissolving their marriages and only David having sex with the wives and minors (yes, he ****ed children). When the Gov'ment came a calling, Ol David called back and got pwned.

There are hundreds of similiar cases. People have used religion as the means to get wealth (whether is be money, land or asss) throughout the centuries. Most of it was by actual members of the church. But, same with the other guy in here, none of this will probably register with you. Faith is total and complete, right down to the religious blinders that are placed around your head. Christians will sell out or just plain ignore reason, logic and common sense for that once small chance of life after death.

ahabion

12-15-2007, 01:30 AM

This statement just pulled me back in here.

You are completely and totally wrong in that entire statement. Amazing.

Without people to worship the divine or a diety, the diety would cease to be a presence in the collective conscience of the people. The people would move on to other sources to fill the missing divine and you have another in a long line of religions. I still find it quite comical that Christians are so conceited as to claim that God created the world but yet Chrisianity is but a blip on the collective religion radar.

For the first part, please refer to the above example I gave before about the matrix. For the Bold part, what you are saying is that a particular sect of society is "conceited" because they have an opinion and belief... please... forgive us for having our own opinion and beliefs... :gay:

Roughly 2007 years ago, Christianity was formed. I'm sure there were ramblings before that date but that is the date most commonly used (like our calendar). Before that it was all sorts of other religions. All Christianity has done is drive other religions out and form up the majority under one banner. Without christians, God would cease to exist. No other way around that. Sort of like this "If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound"

For the italic portion, let me address that almost all organizations that have a "product" to promote will always want to sell you their product. IF you are a Nike person, Reebok will want to sell you their product so that, YOU in turn will become a Reebok person. Basic analogy of "conversion"... which with any organization, is a key goal and aspiration. Notice I said "organization" and not religion. Religions CAN BE organizations, but NOT ALL organizations are religion... ei: Nike and Reebok.

Conversion is a key point in ALL religions, hence why ALL religions focus on "spreading their faith" or "the good news" or the "truth"... your surroundings may be of more Christian based followers, and so you may tend to feel "smothered" with the God and Jesus talk and the pain in the *** question of: "Why the hell are you trying to force this down my throat???" Answer is: The people who are doing that, are a part of their organization... Not to be mistaken by "all Christians" if you will...

For the Bold, you can use science to derive an answer to that. We all know that if no one is around that no one will hear it. But it does not change the fact that the tree still fell, and thru hypothesis and tests, will 100% conclude that a full grown, 50 foot falling tree will make a sound when it falls. BUT on the contrary, just because no one is able to witness it, does not mean it is not able to make a sound. This conclusion is only possible because we are able to test and retest our hypothesis.

So instead of realizing that things had been around MUCH longer than Christianity had been, some christians come up with this theory. Young Earth Creationism. Some crackpots in the religions community believe that Genesis created the earth between 6,000 and 10,000 years ago. Nevermind that carbon dating and any other ways of determining age of things show differently, these people have decided that all of that is false and bunk. They even made a nice, huge little amusement park style ride in middle america, filled with Disneyland style animatronic gadgetry to teach others this whacked out belief. So instead of learning, they just formulated this to coincide with their beliefs. Amazing what blind faith can do.

Just another sect of society stating their postulated opinions. Nothing more, and don't forget to take into consideration that science has yet to be able to prove their side of their argument as well. So you can almost say that the Young Earth Creationism followers and the people who believe in science are one and the same. They have their young earth, science has their multiverse. I like pizza and sushi, she likes hamburgers and fries... so what?

You are wrong....again.

I would have expected more thought out of you than this, especially with you being the son of a pastor. Without the church, much of what you currently call Christianity would not be near as large as it is. Not only does a Pastor need monety to survive because as one person stated in this thread earlier, church is not one day a week, it is all week. That would not allow the pastor to make any other form uf sustanance. All Christians would love to believe that the word of god is nourishment enough, but try that for 3 months and get back to me.

The pastor is NOT a figurehead, he is a teacher. Teaching is his job at a church, like any professor is to any college. They choose this line of work because they wanted to... they knew the consequences and rewards of this type of position. My brother worked for free as a Youth Paster in Toccoa Falls college... for FREE... to earn his buck, he also worked at a Drug and Rehab center in Toccoa as well, called Victory Home. Pastors are teachers, NOT figureheads.

Not only do the masses need a figurehead to channel their worship through (pastor) they also need a place to do it. A Church is not just a building. It is a focal point for worship, gatherings, prayers, weddings and many other functions. Without power, none of those would last very long. I hate to tell you but even churches in impoverished places need power to perform. Without power, money or a building, religion wouldn't last long. Most people don't do it on their own, they rely on the church to fulfill that spiritual hole in the soul.

Some churches do hold events every day of the week. Nothing wrong with that... and the word of God has a different meaning to them than it does to you... to them, it is nourishment enough, to you, it means nothing.You talk about these huge buildings that are so eloquently put together, costing millions of dollars to build and yet you are saying that these churches don't need money to pay for these huge churches? If you don't go to church, it doesn't cost you a dime, if you do go to a church, it still doesn't cost you a dime and if it does, FIND A NEW CHURCH!!! The money put into these churches are funded and founded by the members of the church. The church doesn't get government grants, costing taxpayers money... they buy it with their own money. The same way you put money and parts into your car, so they put money and time into their church. Is there something wrong with that ideology?

And I know plenty of people PERSONALLY that have preached in poverish places and go out of the country to stand and tell their belief to others that listened, irregardless of the conditions that they were in. They didn't need electricity to provide all the creature comforts we've come to take for granted, they did without a roof over their heads and stood under a leafy canopy, and they DID NOT rely on a church or funding from any organization to so. They worked and saved their own money, they asked for any donations that anyone would give and they got themselves over to where they were going, working either alone or with friends and family and when they got there, they started with nothing... they knew no one.. just the clothes in their bags and a Bible in hand... and I say this because I know these people.

The most holy and largest beacon of spiritual light in the world quite possibly is the Vatican. If the Vatican were destroyed tomorrow, Christianity would suffer a huge blow. If all the churches in the world just dissappeared, Christianity would blink out of existance. Sure, there would be some that remembered, but the masses would look to other guidance.

"The most holy and largest beacon of spiritual light in the world quite possibly is the Vatican..." IF I WERE CATHOLIC. To be honest, i could careless if the Vatican went down the pipe, the position of Pope could go with it. Most holy and largest of beacon of spiritual light...? I beg to differ... thats like saying that Atlanta is the be all and end all of ALL import tuning/drifting/drag/street/performance/audio/night show and etc. of the car world... i think not... OMFG!!! Atlanta just got nuked... I guess no parts for me.. says the guy in Tokyo.

In closing. Most of what most people have said isn't aimed at God, it is aimed at organized religion. Organized religion is that monsterous face that is applied to God because every atrocity that was commited was commited in his name. From the Inquisition to the Crusades to Waco, they were all done in the name of religion. David Koresh's church, the Branch Davidian church was an offshoot of the Seventh Day Adventist church, used the Bible (revelations mostly) to convince his followers that the Government was their enemies. He also told them that God had told him to have sex with all of the women in his following to create his "Special people" or his "House of David". That meant married couples dissolving their marriages and only David having sex with the wives and minors (yes, he ****ed children). When the Gov'ment came a calling, Ol David called back and got pwned.

There are hundreds of similiar cases. People have used religion as the means to get wealth (whether is be money, land or asss) throughout the centuries. Most of it was by actual members of the church. But, same with the other guy in here, none of this will probably register with you.

Yep, I agree totally that organized religion is a monstrous foe that will be used to do selfish and evils things. Its human nature to use power. The old addage, "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely." So said Lord Acton... The Crusades were brought upon by a person of power. David Koresh found followers to his cause and gained power. The KKK, the NAACP, Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, Joan of Arc... the list goes on and on... these are and were people of great power. They got that power because they were able to find people to support them in their belief, NOT because they proclaimed it was in the name of GOD... they are/were fanatics. You tend to get some in every generation...

Faith is total and complete, right down to the religious blinders that are placed around your head. Christians will sell out or just plain ignore reason, logic and common sense for that once small chance of life after death.

Faith is what you make of it. You can have faith in anything... in your car, the chair you sit in, the girl/guy you like or are with... that is faith... you have faith that neither of those will break down on you or turn on you... you have faith that your job will keep you around or that you'll even wake up alive tomorrow... that is FAITH. Faith is nothing more than trust.

Christians ignore reason, logic, and common sense because to them, YOU are outside looking in... the same can be true if the roles are reverse... and so like you, they don't want what you have to say shoved down their throats either, just as much as you don't want them to do the same. :D

Life after death, that is part of our faith (trust) in our lifestyle we've chosen to live, because to ME, Christianity is NOT a religion... to me, its a lifestyle and a relationship with my God. This is what I believe in.

BuBBa DRiFT

12-15-2007, 02:22 AM

Glides

12-15-2007, 08:53 AM

Let me first start by saying that you are a worthy debate partner. Thanks for being here.

Now. On with it.

For the first part, please refer to the above example I gave before about the matrix.

Comparing God to the Matrix is pretty funny. So in that instance you must be Orpheus, running around Import Atlanta attempting to wake up the sleeping non-believers?

For the Bold part, what you are saying is that a particular sect of society is "conceited" because they have an opinion and belief... please... forgive us for having our own opinion and beliefs... :gay:

Yes, that is what I am saying. Except you keep forgetting that even today, your sect of society's opinions and beliefs tend to get people killed and have gotten LOTS of people killed, maimed, butchered and tortured throughout your sects bloody history. See Christians have this wonderfully bad habit of judging people. If they don't believe like you do, if they don't behave like you do then it's just ok to kill them. Maybe not you personally but please don't make me go back through history again, i've provided plenty of references in this thread alone.

For the italic portion, let me address that almost all organizations that have a "product" to promote will always want to sell you their product. IF you are a Nike person, Reebok will want to sell you their product so that, YOU in turn will become a Reebok person. Basic analogy of "conversion"... which with any organization, is a key goal and aspiration. Notice I said "organization" and not religion. Religions CAN BE organizations, but NOT ALL organizations are religion... ei: Nike and Reebok.

So God is the same as a shoe? Interesting product to compare God too. I can see the comparisons though. A very large shoe that has systematically stomped out the light of lives, religions, faiths and ruined the lives of millions of people through murder, rape, torture and pedophelia. But there is one difference in your analogy though. If you wear Nikes, the Reebok doesn't send soldiers to your house, drag you outside, nail Reeboks on your feet then beat you to death and hang you from the awning of your house.

Conversion is a key point in ALL religions, hence why ALL religions focus on "spreading their faith" or "the good news" or the "truth"... your surroundings may be of more Christian based followers, and so you may tend to feel "smothered" with the God and Jesus talk and the pain in the *** question of: "Why the hell are you trying to force this down my throat???" Answer is: The people who are doing that, are a part of their organization... Not to be mistaken by "all Christians" if you will...

Tend to feel smothered?? Oh is that what you call it? We live in the Bible Belt unless you haven't taken the time to look around. There are more different styles of Christianity per square mile around here than most places in the world. You have Baptist, Southern Baptist, Catholisism and the list goes on and on. What is interesting is that each of them is different. So much so that other styles of Christianity look down on other ones. More of the "judging" thing. Baptists look down on Southern Baptists as being too fiery, Catholics look down on others for not being formal enough and on and on and on. So how can a religion that is based around the same exact thing, differ so much and cause strife? Once again, God isn't the problem, organized religion is.

For the Bold, you can use science to derive an answer to that. We all know that if no one is around that no one will hear it. But it does not change the fact that the tree still fell, and thru hypothesis and tests, will 100% conclude that a full grown, 50 foot falling tree will make a sound when it falls. BUT on the contrary, just because no one is able to witness it, does not mean it is not able to make a sound. This conclusion is only possible because we are able to test and retest our hypothesis.

We are? Ok, show me the conclusive tests where it shows me God is real. Do that and our debate is over and you will have won. I'll be waiting.
This will be the end of our discussion I am sure because in the face of this simple yet enormous challenge, Christians throw up the blinders and revert back to faith. There is no proof and all you have to fall back too in your entire religious debate is a book. A heavily edited, humanly flawed book.

Just another sect of society stating their postulated opinions. Nothing more, and don't forget to take into consideration that science has yet to be able to prove their side of their argument as well. So you can almost say that the Young Earth Creationism followers and the people who believe in science are one and the same. They have their young earth, science has their multiverse. I like pizza and sushi, she likes hamburgers and fries... so what?

Um, wrong. Unlike the paragraph before, unless you missed the last 20 years of your life, didn't go to school or just plain cannot read, you will have learned that we have dated many things and have proved their age to be much older than 10,000 years. You know, things like rocks, bones, woods and many many more. I'm not sure if you were just talking without thinking in that paragraph but.....:???:

The pastor is NOT a figurehead, he is a teacher. Teaching is his job at a church, like any professor is to any college. They choose this line of work because they wanted to... they knew the consequences and rewards of this type of position. My brother worked for free as a Youth Paster in Toccoa Falls college... for FREE... to earn his buck, he also worked at a Drug and Rehab center in Toccoa as well, called Victory Home. Pastors are teachers, NOT figureheads.

You are correct, by actual definition some pastors are not figureheads. You brother is admirable for what he did, pat him on the back next time you see him.

You talk about these huge buildings that are so eloquently put together, costing millions of dollars to build and yet you are saying that these churches don't need money to pay for these huge churches? If you don't go to church, it doesn't cost you a dime, if you do go to a church, it still doesn't cost you a dime and if it does, FIND A NEW CHURCH!!! The money put into these churches are funded and founded by the members of the church. The church doesn't get government grants, costing taxpayers money... they buy it with their own money. The same way you put money and parts into your car, so they put money and time into their church. Is there something wrong with that ideology?

No....you did. Right here.

The church, as in a people or community sense, does not need money, electricity, or anything physically to exist. (ie: particularly churchs in poverish places, they need not a building, money, or electricty to function)

So which is it? Do they need it or not? You keep saying that money isn't a factor here but you contradict yourself at least 3 times in that paragraph. Going to church doesn't cost you a dime, but if people don't go to church and tithe then nothing gets paid for because according to you the pastor doesn't need money, the church doesn't get money from any other outside source other than subjects. So which is it? Oh and churches DO cost taxpayers money because they are tax exempt so all income is kept in-house. If they paid their share of taxes like the rest of us then our tax burden would be easier no?

So since they don't need all that money, why don't they give it to charity? BECAUSE THEY NEED IT. For someone that claims to know religion you sure are a little fuzzy on the real world workings of things.

And I know plenty of people PERSONALLY that have preached in poverish places and go out of the country to stand and tell their belief to others that listened, irregardless of the conditions that they were in. They didn't need electricity to provide all the creature comforts we've come to take for granted, they did without a roof over their heads and stood under a leafy canopy, and they DID NOT rely on a church or funding from any organization to so. They worked and saved their own money, they asked for any donations that anyone would give and they got themselves over to where they were going, working either alone or with friends and family and when they got there, they started with nothing... they knew no one.. just the clothes in their bags and a Bible in hand... and I say this because I know these people.

Really? Where are they now? Are they still spreading the word or are they back at home in their cozy church. I find your claim hard to believe, but it could happen. In this day and age though....hard to believe.

"The most holy and largest beacon of spiritual light in the world quite possibly is the Vatican..." IF I WERE CATHOLIC. To be honest, i could careless if the Vatican went down the pipe, the position of Pope could go with it. Most holy and largest of beacon of spiritual light...? I beg to differ... thats like saying that Atlanta is the be all and end all of ALL import tuning/drifting/drag/street/performance/audio/night show and etc. of the car world... i think not... OMFG!!! Atlanta just got nuked... I guess no parts for me.. says the guy in Tokyo.

I can see this seeing as how the Catholic church has been responsible form 99% of the spread of Christianity and 99% of the death, turture and general mayhem right along with it. Must be kinda tough to swallow, sort of like having a brother in jail for murder.

Yep, I agree totally that organized religion is a monstrous foe that will be used to do selfish and evils things. Its human nature to use power. The old addage, "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely." So said Lord Acton... The Crusades were brought upon by a person of power. David Koresh found followers to his cause and gained power. The KKK, the NAACP, Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, Joan of Arc... the list goes on and on... these are and were people of great power. They got that power because they were able to find people to support them in their belief, NOT because they proclaimed it was in the name of GOD... they are/were fanatics. You tend to get some in every generation...

And why do you think they use religion as the cornerstone for their campaigns? Because it's the quickest way to turn a weak mind.

Faith is what you make of it. You can have faith in anything... in your car, the chair you sit in, the girl/guy you like or are with... that is faith... you have faith that neither of those will break down on you or turn on you... you have faith that your job will keep you around or that you'll even wake up alive tomorrow... that is FAITH. Faith is nothing more than trust.

All tangible things. I can tough my car, I can screw my girl, I can sit in my chair. Until you show me tangible on the whole God thing, it's just hearsay.

Christians ignore reason, logic, and common sense because to them, YOU are outside looking in... the same can be true if the roles are reverse... and so like you, they don't want what you have to say shoved down their throats either, just as much as you don't want them to do the same. :D

Except that on my side are truths, scientific fact and tangible evidence. On your side is mysticism, magic and an old book. Once again, prove to me that God is real and you have won.

Life after death, that is part of our faith (trust) in our lifestyle we've chosen to live, because to ME, Christianity is NOT a religion... to me, its a lifestyle and a relationship with my God. This is what I believe in.

Commendable. Of all the things you've said, I can agree with that. Christianity IS a lifestyle. If you live it correctly then good things should come to you. If you use it for personal gain, bad things should come to you. But you should never be ashamed of it. I am not suggesting that. I am simply suggesting that Christians look at facts and recognize that alot of what they choose to believe in is hocus pocus. For them to look facts dead in the eye and say "I don't believe it" but then turn right around and believe in a fictual being that can do wonderoursly magical things is like saying "I don't belive in the President of the United States, but by god I belive in Severus Snape"

It's just odd.

But either way, good debate. Maybe one day we will meet and we can have a drink. Me some beer and you, maybe some Blood of Christ Chablis 1934 or something :D

bu villain

12-15-2007, 02:42 PM

For the first part, please refer to the above example I gave before about the matrix. For the Bold part, what you are saying is that a particular sect of society is "conceited" because they have an opinion and belief... please... forgive us for having our own opinion and beliefs... :gay:

I think that's exactly what he is saying. The KKK is a particular sect of society who have their own opinions and beliefs too. Are you saying that everyone should respect those opinions and beliefs? If I believe that white's are the superior race because "I know it and feel it in my heart from the depth of my soul" you would respect that because its my belief right? If a Christian says "Christianity is the only right religion because I know it and feel it in my heart from the depth of my soul", then yes, that absolutely is conceited!

ahabion

12-15-2007, 09:50 PM

I think that's exactly what he is saying. The KKK is a particular sect of society who have their own opinions and beliefs too. Are you saying that everyone should respect those opinions and beliefs? If I believe that white's are the superior race because "I know it and feel it in my heart from the depth of my soul" you would respect that because its my belief right? If a Christian says "Christianity is the only right religion because I know it and feel it in my heart from the depth of my soul", then yes, that absolutely is conceited!

I would respect you for it, I might not agree with it, but if thats what you want to believe and live by, thats your own decision. You've made that choice, not me... if you stand by what you believe in, then thats fine by me. Again, I don't have to agree with it, but I respect it if thats what you'd like to do. You are entitled to your own opinions, thoughts and beliefs.

ahabion

12-15-2007, 10:47 PM

Comparing God to the Matrix is pretty funny. So in that instance you must be Orpheus, running around Import Atlanta attempting to wake up the sleeping non-believers?

Getting back on topic, even if people forgot about God (like the people who knew nothing of the matrix), God (matrix) would still exist, regardless if anyone else acknowledged it. The machines (God) made it known to mankind that they/He was there, and made changes in the matrix/world as they saw fit.

Yes, that is what I am saying. Except you keep forgetting that even today, your sect of society's opinions and beliefs tend to get people killed and have gotten LOTS of people killed, maimed, butchered and tortured throughout your sects bloody history. See Christians have this wonderfully bad habit of judging people. If they don't believe like you do, if they don't behave like you do then it's just ok to kill them. Maybe not you personally but please don't make me go back through history again, i've provided plenty of references in this thread alone.

A minority sect in a very large group, and it only takes a few to ruin it for the rest. It just depends who weilds the power that s/he has gained. Anyone with power will use it, its all in a matter of how and for what purpose. To lump every tyrant that has come about as someone who was Christian is off base. You can take any person of significance and put a label on them. WWII, you can say Winston Churchill was a Christian, but you can also say that Hitler was a Christian too... two total opposites... but with the same applied title of "Christian".

So God is the same as a shoe? Interesting product to compare God too. I can see the comparisons though. A very large shoe that has systematically stomped out the light of lives, religions, faiths and ruined the lives of millions of people through murder, rape, torture and pedophelia. But there is one difference in your analogy though. If you wear Nikes, the Reebok doesn't send soldiers to your house, drag you outside, nail Reeboks on your feet then beat you to death and hang you from the awning of your house.

I am sure you knew I was illustrating... moving on.

Tend to feel smothered?? Oh is that what you call it? We live in the Bible Belt unless you haven't taken the time to look around. There are more different styles of Christianity per square mile around here than most places in the world. You have Baptist, Southern Baptist, Catholisism and the list goes on and on. What is interesting is that each of them is different. So much so that other styles of Christianity look down on other ones. More of the "judging" thing. Baptists look down on Southern Baptists as being too fiery, Catholics look down on others for not being formal enough and on and on and on. So how can a religion that is based around the same exact thing, differ so much and cause strife? Once again, God isn't the problem, organized religion is.

Again, I agree organized religion is a problem... and just because we live in the Bible Belt does not mean you have to surround yourself with people who are Christians..

We are? Ok, show me the conclusive tests where it shows me God is real. Do that and our debate is over and you will have won. I'll be waiting.
This will be the end of our discussion I am sure because in the face of this simple yet enormous challenge, Christians throw up the blinders and revert back to faith. There is no proof and all you have to fall back too in your entire religious debate is a book. A heavily edited, humanly flawed book.

Your statement about the falling tree with no sound is what we can call "natural".... We can test a hypothesis and come to a conclusion and in this instance, the outcome will always be the same because it is natural... so based on the science of reality (5 senses, touch, taste, etc) the end result is always 100% correct when tested again.

BUT if we, as people of science, believe in things that happen "naturally", who is to say that there is no "unnatural" or things that happen "unnaturally"... a parallel would be the glass half empty and half full. Both can be true and both can be false, the question remains is it half empty or half full?... IF we accept everything that happens naturally, even based on science ideology (which questions ALL outcomes), it would completely impoverish to rule out the unnatural.

Um, wrong. Unlike the paragraph before, unless you missed the last 20 years of your life, didn't go to school or just plain cannot read, you will have learned that we have dated many things and have proved their age to be much older than 10,000 years. You know, things like rocks, bones, woods and many many more. I'm not sure if you were just talking without thinking in that paragraph but.....:???:

If you read carefully, I did say that it was another sect that believed in their own beliefs... they stand by what they think and to me, thats ok, I respect that. Did I say I believe what they do, no I don't... and I know all about carbon dating and yes I know that we've found things much older than that... thats just their belief, and again, its the same as how scientist believe in a multiverse... the scientist AND the Young Earth Creationist, in my opinion, are in the same boat.

So which is it? Do they need it or not? You keep saying that money isn't a factor here but you contradict yourself at least 3 times in that paragraph. Going to church doesn't cost you a dime, but if people don't go to church and tithe then nothing gets paid for because according to you the pastor doesn't need money, the church doesn't get money from any other outside source other than subjects. So which is it? Oh and churches DO cost taxpayers money because they are tax exempt so all income is kept in-house. If they paid their share of taxes like the rest of us then our tax burden would be easier no?

So since they don't need all that money, why don't they give it to charity? BECAUSE THEY NEED IT. For someone that claims to know religion you sure are a little fuzzy on the real world workings of things.

Churches are suppose to be non profit organizations, so yes they are tax exempt because of this. I say suppose to be, because I don't know for certain if ALL churches are the same, so I only speak of the churches that I do know about... anyway, again, separating the church building from the church members, the Church building will have a mortgage just like any other property until paid off... yes... the church building will probably use electricity and other utilities that will cost money... yes, the church building will need upkeep and maintenance that cost money... yes. Members aside, the church building will cost money and so will need money yes. But my distinction are for the church as a community of people... the people do not need money to function as a church... the people do not need electricity and other utilities to function, that pastor can do without the money from the church... Even if you take away the physical structure that covers their heads, the people ARE the church, not the building.

and again, the church is nonprofit, so their budget MUST be $0.00 come January 1st. Any balance over that, is reported to the IRS as taxable.

Really? Where are they now? Are they still spreading the word or are they back at home in their cozy church. I find your claim hard to believe, but it could happen. In this day and age though....hard to believe.

Look up the term: Missionaries (not to be mistaken as a sex position) and yes 4 out of 7 people that i know are still overseas... 2 of them in Africa (Botswana and the other in Zimbabwe) another one in Thailand and the other in China. The other 3 came back for christmas to spend time with their families. 1 of them came from Peru, the other 2 (husband/wife) from Mongolia. and no I'm not messing with you, I'm dead serious.

I can see this seeing as how the Catholic church has been responsible form 99% of the spread of Christianity and 99% of the death, turture and general mayhem right along with it. Must be kinda tough to swallow, sort of like having a brother in jail for murder.

Sadly, the Catholics can be termed Christians, but I myself would term them as just Catholics who spread not Christianity, but Catholicism.

All tangible things. I can tough my car, I can screw my girl, I can sit in my chair. Until you show me tangible on the whole God thing, it's just hearsay.

Faith and trust are the exact same thing... faith in its noun form is considered for a belief. Faith as an adjective is simply trust. You have faith/trust in your car that it'll start and when it doesn't, you find out your engine has been stolen... or you have faith in your girl that shes not going to cheat on you, but when you find out she has... you still gunna screw her? Faith is trust... just as many people have faith in their cars and lovers, Christians have trust in God.

Except that on my side are truths, scientific fact and tangible evidence. On your side is mysticism, magic and an old book. Once again, prove to me that God is real and you have won.

Truth is relative, what is true for me may not be true for you. And again you ask for something natural from what I consider unnatural.

Commendable. Of all the things you've said, I can agree with that. Christianity IS a lifestyle. If you live it correctly then good things should come to you. If you use it for personal gain, bad things should come to you. But you should never be ashamed of it. I am not suggesting that. I am simply suggesting that Christians look at facts and recognize that alot of what they choose to believe in is hocus pocus. For them to look facts dead in the eye and say "I don't believe it" but then turn right around and believe in a fictual being that can do wonderoursly magical things is like saying "I don't belive in the President of the United States, but by god I belive in Severus Snape"

It's just odd.

But either way, good debate. Maybe one day we will meet and we can have a drink. Me some beer and you, maybe some Blood of Christ Chablis 1934 or something :D

Since I don't know what facts you talk about, then I can't draw a conclusion. But I myself can also say, "I don't belive in the President of the United States, but by god I belive in Severus Snape" because the way I read it, it considers the character of a person rather than the reality of them. Call it what you will, thats your belief... and I'll be safe in mine.

And I'm not much of a drinker, never developed a taste for beer, but I'm down with a margarita or a mixed drink.

_Christian_

12-16-2007, 03:26 AM

well, heres my opinion, you cant disprove god, and you cant disprove science, so believe in what you want, and stop trying to put other people down for being in the same boat you are. we all may think we know the true answer, but in all reality, your theory is as good as mine, regardless of how far fetched it is.

not directed towards anyone in particular.
true, you can disprove neither, but science provides solid evidence whereas faith does not. as for theory...religion has no theories, only beliefs. some people dont realize where christian beliefs originated or the inconsistencies and utter stupidity of certain aspects of the christian faith. very few people tend to question religion since they've been brainwashed since inception and will continue to brainwash their offspring. i used to be brainwashed. hell, i went to a private catholic school for 9 years. a school where the theory of evolution did not even exist. most people are so closed minded that they cant rationalize the facts because their mind rejects theories that conflict with their beliefs. i am neither trying to debate nor persuade anyone. i am just stating my standpoint...the logical one!

p.s. You are all sheep and establishment is your shepherd.

_Christian_

12-16-2007, 03:27 AM

p.p.s. lol

StupidBikerBoy

12-16-2007, 04:09 AM

Blogs like this are always funny to me. Another attempt to bash science with ignorance in an attempt to "discredit" it. I believe in God, but the people that write these things are idiots.

And the so called science professor in the blog has to be the biggest idiot of all:lmfao:

Edit: And the whole "you can't disprove it" arguement has to be the weakest of all. You might as well give up when thats the best arguement you can come up with. Disproving ANYTHING is much harder than finding supporting evidence.

Example: Did Bill Clinton sleep with that ho?

Supporting evidence: jizz on her dress

Disproof: Umm........because he said he didnt?:lmfao:

bu villain

12-17-2007, 02:25 PM

I would respect you for it, I might not agree with it, but if thats what you want to believe and live by, thats your own decision. You've made that choice, not me... if you stand by what you believe in, then thats fine by me. Again, I don't have to agree with it, but I respect it if thats what you'd like to do. You are entitled to your own opinions, thoughts and beliefs.

You seem to be confusing respect for someones right to have their own beliefs and respecting the content of those beliefs. They are two different things. For example, reusing the KKK, I respect their right to assemble and converse about their hatred but it doesn't mean I respect what they stand for. Same goes with Christianity.

ahabion

12-17-2007, 10:03 PM

You seem to be confusing respect for someones right to have their own beliefs and respecting the content of those beliefs. They are two different things. For example, reusing the KKK, I respect their right to assemble and converse about their hatred but it doesn't mean I respect what they stand for. Same goes with Christianity.

I think we're talking about the same thing. Basically, believe what you want to believe, but it doesn't mean I agree with it. :goodjob:

ahabion

12-17-2007, 10:11 PM

[QUOTE=MKIV VR6]true, you can disprove neither, but science provides solid evidence whereas faith does not. QUOTE]

Yes and no... yes science is real based on what we as humans understand it... but I wouldn't go as far to say that there is no God BECAUSE there is science.

Not to say thats what you were saying, but again, it stems back to creation vs evolution. The possibilities are probably endless... <=== (another thought, just because possibilities are endless, does that really mean they don't exist?)

man

12-22-2007, 01:44 AM

"The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer."

— Albert Einstein

Anyone who can say they are 100% sure either way lacks true intelligence and the ability to think for themselves.

BABY J

01-25-2008, 02:37 PM

In refute to the claims of eyewitness accounts of Jesus - There are no first-person, contemprary, eye witness accounts of anything Jesus did. The gospels were all written in third person 30-40 years after the end of Jesus' ministry. We don't know who the authors really were. We've made educated assumptions in regards to their authorship. Given that none of the texts we have are in the author's hand, nor written in the first person, we have no real way of knowing anything about their authorship. None of them would be admissable as evidence of anything in any courtroom in the United States. Our flawed legal system has higher standards for credibility than Christianity does.

Most of the New Testament theology and doctrine comes from an egotistical man who claims to have had a miraculous conversion experience with no corroboration other than his own claims. Today we'd call that person a "nut case."

I think it's absolutely mind boggling that anyone would give credence to the mystical, superstitious, inconsistent, ignorant, thousands of years old writings of multiple authors over the peer reviewed, acredited, reality-based science of today. Makes no sense to me at all. And the only proof you have of your contrarian viewpoint is to say, 'I believe it.' Well, welcome to Heaven's Gate, or the People's Temple, or the Manson Family.

The Earth is not flat. It is not the center of the Universe. The stars and planets do not revolve around it. It is not carried on the back of a turtle, Atlas doesn't carry it on his shoulders, etc etc etc.

When I was churched, I always made a similar argument about Judas Iscariot. He's vilified by church tradition for betraying Jesus, but that makes absolutely no sense. He should be treated as a hero since he set about the chain of events leading to the crucifixion and eventually the resurrection. (if u belive the BS - lol). Seems he was the only one of the cowards that followed Jesus with enough spine to do what was necessary and to put his beliefs in action. Maybe the only one who didn't think he needed to stay on the gravy wagon and could see a bigger picture?

Maniac1

01-25-2008, 04:57 PM

The Earth is not flat. It is not the center of the Universe. The stars and planets do not revolve around it. It is not carried on the back of a turtle, Atlas doesn't carry it on his shoulders, etc etc etc.Astrology isn't something many religion supporters like to talk about when brought into a discussion about the worlds origin. I find it hilarious when people still believe that the earth was created in 7 days even though they went to school and had plenty of science classes that disproved that ludicrous idea.

YoTa_BoX

01-26-2008, 10:45 AM

"And the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the discernment of their discerning men shall be concealed." Isaiah 29:14
I Corinthians repeats this thought:
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? Where is the scholar? Where is the disputer of this world? Hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? I Corinthians 1:19
Man has used his theory and definitions of time to question the validity of the Bible. The major question is when was the earth formed. The differences in the Bible's version of creation and Science's Big Bang Theory is a function of time. Both consider the universe to have been instantaneously formed, the Bible says by the Word of God, thousands of years ago, and science says from the rapid expansion of a small particle, four billion years ago. However, science does not say where the small particle originated. The scientific theories and the Bible are in agreement that there was a super continent at the beginning of Earth. 35 But they differ greatly in the time frame in which the continents were set adrift.(See Days of Peleg) The scientific theories indicate that Pangaea, the name science has given to the super continent, started breaking up millions of years ago, 36 whereas the Bible states that it occurred in the days of Peleg. 37 If one takes the Biblical chronology literally, then the breakup of Gottsland, my name for the super continent, was approximately 4000 years ago. (For a complete discussion of the continental breakup see "The Days of Peleg" on the webpage.) This difference in time frames presents a significant problem.

It has been suggested that a continental breakup in Peleg's time, approximately 2000 B. C., would have caused great destruction on the earth and history shows evidence of civilization before that time. The effects of the continental breakup would be a function of how the event occurred and the point of reference. The scientific community agrees that the volcanic action and earthquakes are probably caused by the subduction and movement of land masses or plates, but this would occur only on the leading edge of the continental movement, not in the interior of the continents. There probably would have been surface destruction at the breakpoint of the continents, but it probably would not have been much effect on a very large percentage of the continent. It would be the same problem when the earth was divided. The atmospheric sheath would not necessarily be affected and ones in the interior of the continent would not notice a great change in their immediate environment and the area in the center of the movement would experience very little destruction if any. Thus the people around the center of the continental movement 38 would probably experience little or no disruption because there would be little or no perceivable movement at the epicenter. Any point on earth is traveling at more than 1000 miles per hour, relative to a reference point outside the atmosphere, but would be stationary if the reference point is on the earth. One does not experience any sensation of the speed because our environment moves at the same speed. The earth and its atmospheric sheath are also traveling 33,000 miles per hour in its orbit around the sun, but only the radiation effects are felt on earth.
This date is based on the sea-floor spreading measurements of 1.5 cm/yr, 39 which converts to 126,000 yrs/mi or 760 million years for the separation of the North American continent from Europe. The Sea-floor spreading movement data are based on estimates utilizing the information available, and these data indicate differences of hundreds of millions of years, depending on which continental movement is considered.. Scientific equipment and instrumentation were not available for direct measurements of this small incremental movement at the ocean depths of the mid Atlantic riff. Measurements taken during the International Geophysical Year (1967-68) indicate that the South American continent was moving away from Africa at the rate of 15 to 18 inches/year, placing the separation at 4 million years ago for the separation. Satellite measurements in 1971- 72, indicate an 11 in/yr movement, or approximately 6 million years for the separation. Satellite measurements for 1975 show an 8 in/yr movement yielding a separation time of almost 9 million years. These data would indicate that the speed of the continental movement is decreasing. The current Global Positioning Satellite System (GPS) measurements are taken at a different location but do show an additional slowdown in the rate of movement. These data were not available to the authors of the early continental drift articles when the 465 million year date was suggested.

Current research and studies on the continental movement are directed at modern affects on geophysics, volcanology and fault displacement, and are not challenging the original geometry or the time of the breakup of Pangaea because it has no bearing on their research. An extrapolation of the GPS data for South American data show that South America and Africa were joined between 87,000 and 2,000 years ago, the larger number being a linear extrapolation and the smaller a minimal exponential extrapolation. The extrapolation is based on insufficient data to be adamant about the time required for movement, but the methodology is the same as the extrapolation of the sea-floor spreading data used to arrive at the continental drift number. The whole point is none of the physical measurements provide sufficient data for an accurate extrapolation; however the new data from satellite measurements tend to show the continental drift started much later than 465 million years ago. Recent discussions with Dr. William A. Hess, former director of the National Ocean and Atmospheric Administration's GPS program, indicated that at present the GPS system has 24 satellites in orbit, providing GPS data for the entire world and several new more sophisticated satellites are to be launched this year.

The current use of the GPS by earth scientists is focused on areas of interest concerning major faults and volcanoes. However, the receiving stations do provide information on continental drift and several countries including England, Japan, Peru, Brazil, and some African nations have installed or are installing receiving stations. Earth receiving stations see approximately 6 to 8 satellites at the same time. This translates into approximately 18 data points per satellite pass. Based on four satellite data signals for locating the receiving stations position, this produces a massive amount (approximately 100,000 data points per year per location) of actual locational data for analyzing the movement of the receiving station. These data will provide a much more accurate analyses of the continental movement by providing sufficient data for accurate extrapolations. The observation point of the satellite removes the problem of an earth bound reference point. The annual and five year averages over the next twenty years should indicate the extent of the slowing of the movement and provide the basis for an accurate extrapolation to the time of initial movement. The current physical data indicate thousands of years for the initial movement rather than 100's of millions of years since the breakup of Gottsland.
It appears that the initial breakup of Gottsland could have occurred in the days of Peleg. The geologic dating presents the same problems, since most methods of atomic dating are questionable beyond 10,000 years, and are also dependent on the speed of light. The Geologist and Earth Scientist use the index fossils to decide the age of the strata and the Archeologist uses the strata to determine the age of the fossils. Whose definition does one use?
The conclusion from the above is that God controls time and man can only measure it under controlled conditions.

YoTa_BoX

01-26-2008, 02:40 PM

Astrology isn't something many religion supporters like to talk about when brought into a discussion about the worlds origin. I find it hilarious when people still believe that the earth was created in 7 days even though they went to school and had plenty of science classes that disproved that ludicrous idea.

if you would do some research Before posting comments then you would know that in the Bible it is said that 1 day for god is 1000 years here on earth. He made the earth in 7 days his time not ours.

man

01-26-2008, 03:52 PM

Astrology isn't something many religion supporters like to talk about when brought into a discussion about the worlds origin. I find it hilarious when people still believe that the earth was created in 7 days even though they went to school and had plenty of science classes that disproved that ludicrous idea.

Can you post said proof. Pretty sure everything out there is still a theory. There is no proof to support either side, so once again I'll post this:

"The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer." -Albert Einstein

Maniac1

01-26-2008, 04:47 PM

if you would do some research Before posting comments then you would know that in the Bible it is said that 1 day for god is 1000 years here on earth. He made the earth in 7 days his time not ours.7,000 years... That still doesn't come close to the actual age of the earth. LOL!

Maniac1

01-26-2008, 04:51 PM

Can you post said proof. Pretty sure everything out there is still a theory. There is no proof to support either side, so once again I'll post this:You should know that there is proof, of the earth being wayyy older then 7,000 years. ;) Am I right or wrong?

YoTa_BoX

01-26-2008, 04:55 PM

Maniac1

01-26-2008, 04:59 PM

im just stating what is written. you on the other hand didnt take the time to research what you were talking about, which is why you hold little water in a conversation like this. I'm not saying i do on the other hand...But for some one to start a conversation with out knowing the facts from both sides is sure as hell to go no where.You can think that all you want. But what makes you think I know nothing about the bible? I mean, it makes just as much sense as a dr. seuss book lol. You are analyzing my post way to hard man. Go back and read this whole thread if you really want to know what kind of knowledge I have on this subject.

YoTa_BoX

01-26-2008, 05:20 PM

Your post Maniac() You're right, evolution and the big bang theory haven't been physically or scientifically proven, but there have been clues about there exixtence. Evolution threw our fossil remains and the big bang threw the stars moving away from each other. We did NOT evolved from dinosaurs or cows. Dinosaurs and other reptiles existed way before some mammals. Around 65 million, not billion. The earth is thought to be only 4 billion years old. Anyways, sure there were rodents, but nothing big enough to give spark to actually primate evolution.

this seems to be the only statement that you made that holds any facts in either one of these discussions, all your other posts are just what you feel.

Im not analyzing anything to much...your just not doing enough research before you make a post about something you know little about. Your just going off Feelings and past unanswered prayers to fuel your rant.

Maniac1

01-26-2008, 05:33 PM

this seems to be the only statement that you made that holds any facts in either one of these discussions, all your other posts are just what you feel. There not feelings, but more of an "opinion" on the subject. People were posting their beliefs and so was I. Me and a few others were just having a discussion, nothing more. I wasn't out to make anyone think differently. I mean, who am I? Just another normal person just like everyone else... I have no powers whats so ever so why should I try to guide anyone? Even if its in a good path or evil?

Im not analyzing anything to much...your just not doing enough research before you make a post about something you know little about. Your just going off Feelings and past unanswered prayers to fuel your rant.Im actually in the process of going to church and asking questions to the pastor. LOL but if I disbelieve in religion, in which that makes me evil. BUT im still allowed in the church, just so I can give 10%. What does that tell you? Dude, im not calling your faith childish. But everyone has different ways at looking at things. You have your ways and I have mine.

YoTa_BoX

01-26-2008, 05:49 PM

There not feelings, but more of an "opinion" on the subject. People were posting their beliefs and so was I. Me and a few others were just having a discussion, nothing more. I wasn't out to make anyone think differently. I mean, who am I? Just another normal person just like everyone else... I have no powers whats so ever so why should I try to guide anyone? Even if its in a good path or evil?

Im actually in the process of going to church and asking questions to the pastor. LOL but if I disbelieve in religion, in which that makes me evil. BUT im still allowed in the church, just so I can give 10%. What does that tell you? Dude, im not calling your faith childish. But everyone has different ways at looking at things. You have your ways and I have mine.

That is great that your going to church and asking questions, I hope you find what your looking for. But when you start making statements which you know nothing about its better to stick to your opinion, than just blatantly say something you know little about. You are the one who made this thread God vs. Science you keep bringing up there is no proof this no proof that...yet you bring really nothing to either side of the conversation. Alls im saying is go do a hell of allot more research on both sides before you try making these kinds of posts.

Maniac1

01-26-2008, 05:55 PM

Alls im saying is go do a hell of allot more research on both sides before you try making these kinds of posts.I rather continue what im doing then waste my time reading a man made book. Religion members that posted in this thread had no proof either. Just like me, no one does. NOT even pastors. Are you saying they need to stop acting like they know everything and do more research before they start telling people whats right and whats wrong?

BABY J

01-26-2008, 05:58 PM

That is great that your going to church and asking questions, I hope you find what your looking for. But when you start making statements which you know nothing about its better to stick to your opinion, than just blatantly say something you know little about. You are the one who made this thread God vs. Science you keep bringing up there is no proof this no proof that...yet you bring really nothing to either side of the conversation. Alls im saying is go do a hell of allot more research on both sides before you try making these kinds of posts.

I find the idea that young earth creationists require that good, solid science be completely ignored and to instead believe in magic to be very insulting. To me, other believers should be offended by the suggestion.

Seriously, you guys are stuck in the Dark Ages.
* You either take the scientific stance that the age of the universe to be AT LEAST 13.9 billion years based on solid astrophysics and the amount of time it has taken light from the most distant objects we can see to reach Earth, or you believe in magic.
* You either take the scientific stance that the age of the Earth is 4.5 billion years based on solid geophysics and the geological record, or you believe in magic.
* You either take the scientific stance that living organisms inherently improve their abilities to process available energy through proven natural evolutionary processes (even at it's lowest simple forms -- bacteria/viruses), or you believe in magic.

You can't expect people to take you seriously, to put any credibility in what you say, as long as you take such a ridiculous stance. Whether or not you believe "God" was responsible for these processes is up to you, but whether or not these processes exist is simply not open to debate unless you have some cult-like mentality that eschews the reality that you're surrounded by. And believe me, concepts like dinorsaurs with saddles on them are definitely cult-like in their ridiculousness to any rational human being.

Now, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat.

On_Her_Face

01-26-2008, 06:06 PM

god created chuck norris so there for

god > science

CHUCK NORRIS

01-26-2008, 06:08 PM

god created chuck norris so there for

god > science

I created God.

Maniac1

01-26-2008, 06:09 PM

I created God.Bwahahahaha!!! :lmao: you're the man dude!

YoTa_BoX

01-26-2008, 06:35 PM

[QUOTE=Maniac©]I rather continue what im doing then waste my time reading a man made book.[/QUOTE

If you dont want to research the other side of a Discussion you made then Keep it to Just your opinions. Don't try and state facts which you know nothing about. This has nothing to do with God vs. science as far as your posts go..They are just uneducated Rants about your opinion...Keep it that way and Leave the Facts to some one who is willing to do the Research on both sides of the subject. You say you are going to church and asking questions and its not really showing.

YoTa_BoX

01-26-2008, 06:37 PM

I find the idea that young earth creationists require that good, solid science be completely ignored and to instead believe in magic to be very insulting. To me, other believers should be offended by the suggestion.

Seriously, you guys are stuck in the Dark Ages.
* You either take the scientific stance that the age of the universe to be AT LEAST 13.9 billion years based on solid astrophysics and the amount of time it has taken light from the most distant objects we can see to reach Earth, or you believe in magic.
* You either take the scientific stance that the age of the Earth is 4.5 billion years based on solid geophysics and the geological record, or you believe in magic.
* You either take the scientific stance that living organisms inherently improve their abilities to process available energy through proven natural evolutionary processes (even at it's lowest simple forms -- bacteria/viruses), or you believe in magic.

You can't expect people to take you seriously, to put any credibility in what you say, as long as you take such a ridiculous stance. Whether or not you believe "God" was responsible for these processes is up to you, but whether or not these processes exist is simply not open to debate unless you have some cult-like mentality that eschews the reality that you're surrounded by. And believe me, concepts like dinorsaurs with saddles on them are definitely cult-like in their ridiculousness to any rational human being.

Now, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat.

and where in my posts did i say what i was for?

BABY J

01-26-2008, 06:40 PM

YoTa_BoX

01-26-2008, 07:03 PM

Who cares what you're for?

But it's pretty obv what "side" you are trying to defend. Don't act brand new... it's not sexy. My post is directed at any1 who is a bible thumper. If that's you - then it's meant for you - if not, carry on.:goodjob:

well you quoted me so is why i said what i said... when you quote what some one says you generally are aiming at them... lol and how did i act brand new? oh well...To be honest im not for either side. Im still learning more and more about each side. I do read the bible and at the same time am an avid science person.

Maniac1

01-26-2008, 07:05 PM

Yota, you gonna answer my question or ignore it because you know im right?

YoTa_BoX

01-26-2008, 07:11 PM

Yota, you gonna answer my question or ignore it because you know im right?

lol well in the case of Pastors and scientist they Did do the research that you refuse to do.. so no they can keep doing what they studied for. There is a diff between your uneducated ranting and some one who has spent Years learning both sides.

Maniac1

01-26-2008, 07:15 PM

lol well in the case of Pastors and scientist they Did do the research that you refuse to do.. so no they can keep doing what they studied for. There is a diff between your uneducated ranting and some one who has spent Years learning both sides.But like you said, I had no proof to back up any of my posts. Right? Pastors and Scientists don't either, on alot of things. So answer my question, should they stop doing what they're doing, yes or no? I mean, you can continue trying to disprove my theory on this subject, but at the end of the day does it really matter? Do you really want to win, or just look good losing?

YoTa_BoX

01-26-2008, 07:30 PM

lol im not losing anything man. And i said no they should not stop what they are doing, yet again where you did not take the time to read and educate your self. Im not trying to disprove anything. Your the OP of this thread and im just telling you before you try and make a post about something Read a damn Book about it first before Blabbing on and making your self look like a dumb ass. Those pastors and those Scientist continue to learn more every day to gain knowledge. No one person can know every thing about anything. But you on the other hand dont want to learn all you can on both sides to make an educated post. Dont get your panties in a wad man, you asked for opinions and im giving you mine. Like i said in my post..im for neither side as of right now.. but i can open mindedly look at both sides unlike you.

Duke E. Love

01-26-2008, 08:56 PM

relegion and faith is for people that are affraid to die. thank u that is all

Vayda

01-26-2008, 10:23 PM

I'm going to try and be as logical as possible about this....

Firstly, I think we can all agree that religions (note the plural, all religions) exist to answer three fundamental questions: Where do we come from, where are we going, and why are we here.

Science has answers to all three of these questions, and very logical ones at that. We come from chance, evolution has pushed us to the top of the food chain. It was pure chance that Lucy climbed down from her tree one day in the primeval Savannah and stood up to look for predators over the high grass. It was pure chance that her descendants chose to pick up the first tools that lead us to Homo Habilis, Homo Erectus, and later, Homo Sapiens. When we die, we go to nothing. Our body stops functioning, our thoughts fade, and if we live on, the only form in which we do so is via our works in life (ie, our writings, achievements, goals, children, et cetera.) We are here need not be answered. We come from chance, therefore we are here by chance. Can anyone disagree with these? Please provide me a logical explanation if you can.

The second question is, I think, slightly more important than the other two, because it seems to also determine another fundamental characteristic of religion: The existence and purpose of the soul. If you believe that all religion is, more or less, a crock of ****, then there can be no soul. The essential qualities of each person are genetic, or a product of the environment in which they were raised. Because of this, I'm going to focus a little more on the second question than the first or third. I'm also going to discuss four major religions: Christianity (and Mormon within it), Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism.

The Christian eschatology is very widely known; at least, the common idea of heaven and hell is. When a person dies, their soul leaves their body and they head "up" to heaven. They meet St. Peter at the pearly gates, and are admitted to heaven, all assuming they met the qualifications to get in. If they did not, they go down to hell, and are tortured. In the Catholic version of events, there is a third option, purgatory, where the soul will go if they were not good enough for heaven but not bad enough for hell, or if they were an innocent (such as a baby who died or was stillborn, or a person who lived before the time of Christ.) They wait in Purgatory until their survivors back on Earth either pray them into heaven, or the rapture, at which point Christ comes down and redeems the ones worth redeeming, and condemns the ones who aren't.

The Mormon version of this is pretty different. When a soul dies, if it is a good Mormon, it goes to Paradise. If it was a bad Mormon, or not a Mormon, it goes to purgatory. There, the person is given a chance to convert and repent for everything they did wrong, at which point they can go hang out in Paradise. But all of this is basically a waiting pool, because when the Rapture comes, everyone is judged. The people who were the best Mormons in life are given essentially their own planet, which they become the God of. The OK Mormons will populate these planets, or get a smaller planet, depending. The bad ones and the ones that never converted are done for.

Judaism is similar to Christianity in its belief in heaven, but Judaism does not include hell. Instead, Judaism has Seven levels of Heaven, and your deeds and works on Earth decide where and how you go. I believe it is also possible to move up through these levels.

Hinduism expounds the belief in reincarnation. When you die, your soul goes into the cosmic cycle, and is then stuffed into a new body back on Earth. There is little change from one life to the next - the soul is a rather static object, and generally if you are in a lower Caste, you can expect to stay there for some time.

Buddhism also includes reincarnation, but it is different than Hinduism. It was best explained to me like this: Imagine a candle, and before it is extinguished, its flame lights the flame of a candle next to it. The second candle lights a third, and so on. Fifty candles down the line, it is hard to imagine the flame burning there is the same flame that burned in the beginning, but the fact remains that the final flame came from there. This mutation of the soul, growing from its experiences in life, and learning until the soul (not its current possessor) gains enlightenment, is the principal belief of Buddhism. In Hinduism, your soul never gets out; in Buddhism, there is an eventual end to the cycle.

All of these five different belief systems contain one thing in common: the soul. Science eliminates the concept of a soul entirely. If you are going to argue that science does NOT, then please explains what happens to the soul when you die. Religion answers this.

If you do not argue that a purely scientific belief includes a soul, then you agree that when the body dies, the essence of the person decays along with the flesh, correct? Am I also correct in saying that it is a flawed scientific method to claim that the absence of evidence is, in fact, evidence? The reason I ask this is because the only evidence you could give for a lack of a soul is that there is no physical evidence thereof. The problem with that (aside from a lack of evidence not being evidence) is that there IS proof of a soul, or at least of some other incorporeal part of humans that lives on after death. There is massive evidence of ghosts and spirits haunting places, and people. There is scientific data of temperature changes, things moving on their own, and the like. To deny this or try to explain it away is to do the SAME thing that Christians do to evolution. There is always another explanation.

So, logically, you can assume that since everything can be "explained away" despite a great amount of scientific proof, both evolution and souls are complete fallacies. If, however, you chose to think that not all things that CAN be explained away SHOULD be explained away, then you must think that NEITHER evolution nor ghosts and supernatural should be. If you are going to stand here and tell me that one should and one should not, then you're nothing but a hypocrite. If you're a hypocrite, then I automatically win, so don't try :D

Because we've successfully argued that there is, in fact, a soul, I think we can agree that not all religion is a crock of ****. However, the question still remains of whether or not there is a god. Not all religions specifically believe in one. However, most religions have some sort of belief in a higher power, be it one or many. Christianity, Judaism, and Islam all believe in the same God, call Him Allah, Yahweh, or just God, it's the same thing. I point to a famous text in the Old Testament, the Decalogue, or Ten Commandments. Commandment number 2: "You shall have no gods except me" or, in Latin, "non habebis deos alienos coram me." Think carefully about the explanation here. Why would God, being the all knowing deity that He is, note that the Hebrews should have no other gods, if He is the only one? Why is God a jealous god, if there are no other gods to be jealous of? The Hebrews are His chosen people. I don't think God cared what the OTHER people on Earth did or believed, or which god they worshiped, as long as the Hebrews only worshiped Him.

So does this mean there are many gods in the world? Why not?

I can continue on this thread, but it's going to come down to me explaining why my specific set of beliefs is...well, is what i believe. I think my point was best made when it came down to proof that both religion and science must exist in tandem, or neither can exist in all.

Maniac1

01-27-2008, 01:55 AM

lol im not losing anything man. And i said no they should not stop what they are doing, yet again where you did not take the time to read and educate your self.Actually I did read that part. But you failed to answer my question, once again. You said, "if you don't have enough knowledge of both sides of the card(you didn't say card, im just saying it to use as an example) then you shouldn't post up posts that carry no weight on this subject." Then I brought up the fact that the pastor who also doesn't have knowledge of both sides of the card.

You then continued to bring up scientists. And comparing them to pastors. Which was good. Yet, that came with a price. My question now had two not one supporting parts of the question. All that did was add another liter of fuel to the fire.

Which is fine. But you used that as a trump card to avoid answering my first question. Should they stop, because they're in a way like me? They have more knowledge on their field than the other because thats what they're using all their time and energy on... Am I doing something differently? No. Im also gaining more knowledge from religion, by going to church and asking questions. So once again, you didn't answer my question. But after reading your posts I don't expect to see an answer anytime soon.

Im not trying to disprove anything. Your the OP of this thread and im just telling you before you try and make a post about something Read a damn Book about it first before Blabbing on and making your self look like a dumb ass. Again, you know nothing about my knowledge when it comes to this topic. I brought up the fact that the bible said that the earth was created in 7 days. You then said that I had no knowledge because God said a day for him is 1000 years. Ok. Thats the only post of mine that you went out of your way to try to prove me wrong.
But again, you failed. Because the earth wasn't created in 7,000 years. LOL I mean if you believe that you're the only dumbass in this thread.

Those pastors and those Scientist continue to learn more every day to gain knowledge. Im doing the same. Am I still a bad person with no knowledge or in the same category with both pastors and scientists?

No one person can know every thing about anything. But you on the other hand dont want to learn all you can on both sides to make an educated post. I agree with 50% of what you posted.

Dont get your panties in a wad man, you asked for opinions and im giving you mine. Like i said in my post..im for neither side as of right now.. but i can open mindedly look at both sides unlike you.Im not tripping about anything that has been said in this thread, dude. Far from it. Im enjoying every minute of it... Seems to me like you're the only one taking this seriously seeing as you were the first one to use a bad word on the other person. Lolol. Its ok man, if you really want to win this argument, you win. I give up.