Organized Religion

[Hulud]

(since we havent had a discussion in a while)

So you all know my take on organized religion, so in class we had to read the Qur'an. so i'm like cool, cause i like to read up on these things (seriously).

so we read it (in english, not arabic) and we have a discussion about it. this one kid is talking so condescendin
gly about how islam puts themself as the best religion. so i sit there and keep my mouth shut, cause you cant win against close minded people. i mean come on kid, all religions do that, just take a step back from your bible and see whats really going on. i mean its not like im going to start my own religion and say "hey my religion is great, BUT christianity is better" i wont get followers, :doh:


also the whole thing about religious texts, they are garbage (IMO). i mean yes the CENTRAL idea is good, but how can you be sure that everything else is right? i mean look at the translation, you know stuff got messed up.

lets take the Qur'an for example, it is the word of god BUT its through:

god->Gabriel->Muhammed->people who finally wrote is down later on

yes i understand that the Qur'an is only considered religious text if in arabic

then lets do the same thing with the bible

god->jesus->disciples who wrote it down years later

so lets discuss this....

btw, sucks that i HAVE to post this but if you do not have anything intelligent to say, get out. your post will be deleted, this isnt the WL

[bu villain]

Im interested in religion too but I'm not sure what you want to discuss. Are you asking on opinions on whether or not the bible should only be produced in Aramaic? How about presenting Jesus as a middle eastern Jew instead of a European white guy? My guess is neither one is going to happen ever.

[MikeyPrzy]

yes i understand that the Qur'an is only considered religious text if in arabic very important. How do you know what you read in your schoolbooks is true? IDK, just believe nigga.

[AtifSajid]

You have a point about God - to Angel Gabriel - Prophet Muhammad - people

In Islam when Prophet Muhammad relayed the word of God to the people, at that point there were a handful of Muslim scholars who memorized what was said and also wrote it down right away. It was relayed to the general public after the scholars had memorized it and written it down. Thats what all was compiled to make the Quran. The exact same words - again you can argue that were those really the exact same words...

I havent read the Christian transalation as deep as I would like to,I would like to know how the Bible was written down.

We use to have a good christian guy on here who use to havse good conversation anout different religion with many of us. I wonder if he is still around. I havent seen him post in a very long time - Metal?(IA name)

But you should make a point in your class, that there is no such thing as a Quran written completely in English. Who is the Author of that translated Quran you are reading.

[Hulud]

very important. How do you know what you read in your schoolbooks is true? IDK, just believe nigga.
i dont, that was the whole basis of me wanting to discuss this

its not just islam, its all religions. cause the bible and torah etc... were not written in english first

[Hulud]

You have a point about God - to Angel Gabriel - Prophet Muhammad - people

In Islam when Prophet Muhammad relayed the word of God to the people, at that point there were a handful of Muslim scholars who memorized what was said and also wrote it down right away. It was relayed to the general public after the scholars had memorized it and written it down. Thats what all was compiled to make the Quran. The exact same words - again you can argue that were those really the exact same words...

I havent read the Christian transalation as deep as I would like to,I would like to know how the Bible was written down.

We use to have a good christian guy on here who use to havse good conversation anout different religion with many of us. I wonder if he is still around. I havent seen him post in a very long time - Metal?(IA name)

But you should make a point in your class, that there is no such thing as a Quran written completely in English. Who is the Author of that translated Quran you are reading.
metalman, funny thing is after ive talked with him in person multiple times, i dont think hes not religious, hes just knowledgable (sp?). but i could be wrong

yea the professor said multiple times that the english version is not a religious text. so i hope everyone understood that lol

ill check on the author, but im off to bed for now, ill be back tomorrow to discuss it

[Maniaç]

i dont, that was the whole basis of me wanting to discuss this

its not just islam, its all religions. cause the bible and torah etc... were not written in english firstThis whole topic is something I don't really like getting to deep into cause so many people have diffrent believes. And others like myself have views on it that some may not agree on and take it very offensive. We've had acouple threads like this one and it never ends happly ever after, like most things in life. But here is my opinion on it, and its not just on Islam or whatever.

The Bible today is nothing more than made up storys. Storys that have been and will continue to be passed on threw the generations. When people bring up scientific proof that disproves alot of the things that "happend" in the bible people will always bring up all the "miracles" that so many people have seen and been threw.
Like death, people that are "brought" back to life, its not cause of god when you really think about it. Its your will to live that brings you back. Alot may argue but its true in so many ways, or like getting a second chance in life, did "god" save your life and said it wasn't your time? No, you were just not in a situation where you were realy supposed to die! Take new borns, why would "god" take their lives away if they didn't even get a chance to start?

Im not an anitchrist nor have I ever said I was, so I play around with the 666 crap and banned from heaven thing, big deal. im not a bad person, so have I or am I a bad person? No, some may take it serious but I just laugh at them for believing it. Im not the type to get all into it and get a tat with the symbol of satan. blah blah im getting away from the original subject, let me stop..

Anyways, I could continue but i'll see what other people have to say about this topic. ps; my mom just bought me a bible, but that book is way to long! Has anyone finished or is reading it?

[Maniaç]

I guess no one wants to have an arguement about this subject huh? Lame.

[VooDooXII]

"Is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's blunders?"
-Friedrich Nietzcshe

[Maniaç]

"Is man one of God's blunders or is God one of man's blunders?"
-Friedrich NietzcshePretty nice quote, know exactly what its trying to say. Here are acouple that I like.



"Religions are easy to invent. Most traditional religions have little or nothing to do with reality, are dependent on obfuscation, interpretation, guilt, and unreasoning faith (http://www.dpjs.co.uk/disliked_words.html#Faith) - some more than others. Since Satanism is essentially a religion of the self, it holds that the individual and his personal needs comes first. If that means playing with trains or spike-heeled shoes or singing in the bathtub, those are its sacraments and devotions. Taking inventory of old comic books is counting beads on a rosary, each book being a station of the cross." The Most Powerful Religion (http://churchofsatan.com/Pages/MostPower.html) by Anton LaVey (http://www.dpjs.co.uk/people.html#Anton LaVey)


"There is something ticklish in "the truth" and in the search for the truth; and if a man goes about it too humanely, I wager he find nothing!"

"Beyond Good and Evil", Nietzsche (http://www.dpjs.co.uk/nietzsche.html), p50-51

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former"

Albert Einstein

[VooDooXII]

I always question the basis of people's faiths, because I want to know why they believe what they believe. I'm Agnostic...I don't follow any religion, but I'm still skeptical about the existence of a higher being. I'd like to learn why people follow certain faiths, but I CANNOT STAND when people start telling me that I'd be better off this way or that.

I don't like that Atheists and Agnostics are accused of not having any morals. I don't feel as if something should dictate exactly the way I should live my life. I am confident enough that I can distinguish right from wrong. I understand that people take comfort with the knowledge that there is a higher power that they can always confide in. That is all them though. Some Atheists are aggressive about this stuff...and I don't like that either. They criticize people for following a faith. I feel like people can believe what they believe...and leave others to themselves. If someone else is curious, then they can learn.

I don't know...I went all over the place with this, but that's what I have to say about religion.

By the way Maniac, good quotes. :goodjob:

[Jaimecbr900]

This subject has sparked great heated debates in the past. This time will probably be no different.

The hardest part to convince anyone about any religious belief is that recipient getting their head around the fact that FAITH is something that sometimes can not be defined by tangible things. Scientists rely on fully tangible proof to support their theories. Problem is that even Scientists can't support all their theories with tangible proof either. Therefore, this debate always makes a full circle back to it's origin; FAITH.

There are tons of documentation and scientific proof that in the eye of the beholder proves their view(s) or discredits his opposition. Once again, it is up to US to interpret that "proof" as believeable or fallable in OUR eyes and OUR minds. The "Big Bang" makes sense, until you dive a little further and find that even science has discredited it as it is has been "taught" for hundreds of years. Heck, even carbon dating has now been found to be inaccurate and therefore would totally change certain data that relied upon that to prove or discredit certain theories.

So what do you have? You have a great divide. On one side you have belief and on the other you have lack thereof. Each side holding fast to their own, yet it always comes back full circle to the same idea; FAITH. Just like we have FAITH on the sun rising and falling every day. Just like we have FAITH on our children to do well. Just like we have FAITH that our partners don't cheat on us. Just like we have FAITH that the driver stopped at the red light WON'T dart out in front of us. Everyone has FAITH in something at some point in their life or another. Why would it be so hard to understand that some of that FAITH could be focused on the belief that there is a higher power and there is a higher purpose to life? It is no different than anyone having FAITH that the driver of that car stopped at the light, whom you don't know from Adam, is NOT going to dart out in front of you. Do you jam on the brakes every time you see a car at an intersection? Do you live your whole life scared to drive through that intersection? Do you always believe and conduct yourself as if EVERYONE is in fact out to do you harm? Well then, why can't people have some of that same FAITH that it takes all of us not to be basket cases everyday be directed to the belief that a higher power does in fact exist? Faith is faith folks. You can have faith on something or you can have faith on nothing. It is still FAITH. So if you can have it on NOTHING, why can't we have it on SOMETHING?

Anyway, I know Brian was eluding to something else so I'll let the debate go back in that direction.

I just feel that all of these subjects.....God or no God?.....Bible accurate or not?.....organized religion or atheisim?......all of them revert back to the same exact point; FAITH. You either have FAITH on God or you don't. If you do, you stand on one sideline, while the others stand on the other.....all the while LIFE is being played out in the middle of the field in front of both. The question really is: When the "game" is over, which sideline is going to win? ;)

[Maniaç]

Ok, we get it. Its all about faith, lolol. Im pretty sure we already knew that, or atleast I did.

[Jaimecbr900]

Ok, we get it. Its all about faith, lolol. Im pretty sure we already knew that, or atleast I did.

I don't think you do. If you believe that someone's "will" is what makes them live or die, you certainly don't get it. If you believe the Bible is all made up stories, then you certainly don't get it. I really don't think you do get it.

You want to know why babies die? Read. The reason is in every religious book from the Bible to the Q'uran. You may not like it. You may not agree with it, but it's there.

You wanna know why ANYONE dies? Same answer.

So according to your theory, a person dies NOT because it's "their time" but because they didn't have a strong enough "will"??? :thinking: Trust me, there are 100 yr old people that would love to live forever and don't. Just like there are plenty of young people that meet the same outcome. So what you're saying is that all of those deaths could have been over come simply by having a strong will to stay alive? Well, that's fine, but it only goes to show once again how it is possible to believe something that CAN'T be scientifically proven, right? ;) I mean, there is no Will-o-meter to measure it with, right? So according to the scientific community, your theory because it can't be proven by fancy smancy tests must not be true. You can't TOUCH "will", can you? You can't smell it, can you? So how can it exist while FAITH can not?

[Maniaç]

I don't think you do. If you believe that someone's "will" is what makes them live or die, you certainly don't get it. If you believe the Bible is all made up stories, then you certainly don't get it. I really don't think you do get it.

You want to know why babies die? Read. The reason is in every religious book from the Bible to the Q'uran. You may not like it. You may not agree with it, but it's there.

You wanna know why ANYONE dies? Same answer.

So according to your theory, a person dies NOT because it's "their time" but because they didn't have a strong enough "will"??? :thinking: Trust me, there are 100 yr old people that would love to live forever and don't. Just like there are plenty of young people that meet the same outcome. So what you're saying is that all of those deaths could have been over come simply by having a strong will to stay alive? Well, that's fine, but it only goes to show once again how it is possible to believe something that CAN'T be scientifically proven, right? ;) I mean, there is no Will-o-meter to measure it with, right? So according to the scientific community, your theory because it can't be proven by fancy smancy tests must not be true. You can't TOUCH "will", can you? You can't smell it, can you? So how can it exist while FAITH can not?You probably didn't really understand what I was trying to say on my previous post. So I will explain; Faith is something that this subject will always turn into. Just like you stated earlier. Of course that is going to happen cause people that believe or choose to believe it rely on a path to happiness. Which is understanable but come on lets be realistic. Do you or any other person believe in a place where butterflys are flying over some flowers and the tooth fairy is talking to Santa? Or a place where people are crying for help and asking for forgivness cause of their wrong doing? Burning all day getting treated by animals, yet feeling pain? How can you if you're are no longer living?

Im not a type of person to believe that, why. Cause I made that decision as I was growning up. People always say, I was brought up like this I have a very religous family, so do I. Yet why am I not following the bible like its my guide to happiness?

Your post up there did make alot of sense, yes "will" can't be proven. But "will" is something thats all around us, from huge animals to microscopic ones. Im not saying that it can be proven, cause like alot of us already know, alot of things in the world can NOT. If you believe in the bible and all of its fary tails, thats cool. Im not calling you wrong, I was just giving my opinion on the subject. What gets to me is why there is so many religions if we're all supposed to be following GOD? I grew up as a catholic yet have been to a christian church before. Not really the same thing, and I ask myself, why aren't they? Cause over the time people have switched it to what they wanted it to be? Or cause GOD made it this way? Who knows. That gets me thinking but its nothing I can't live without, you know.

We are getting off topic, yet this subject will always end of the same. Long ass posts with the same old thing, shit even my Big bang theory thread turned into this. Its pretty cool reading other peoples point of view, but to me its all kinda childish to believe in things that have never been proven and probably never will. Just like "will", it also is childish but it makes alot more sense, TO ME! Which may be saying, ok I believe in "will" but not faith? Why, aren't they the same? No, cause faith is believing or praying that a savior will help you at the end, yet "will" is something you rely on, something you have inside youself. blah blah, should I continue?

[Hulud]

This subject has sparked great heated debates in the past. This time will probably be no different.

The hardest part to convince anyone about any religious belief is that recipient getting their head around the fact that FAITH is something that sometimes can not be defined by tangible things. Scientists rely on fully tangible proof to support their theories. Problem is that even Scientists can't support all their theories with tangible proof either. Therefore, this debate always makes a full circle back to it's origin; FAITH.

There are tons of documentation and scientific proof that in the eye of the beholder proves their view(s) or discredits his opposition. Once again, it is up to US to interpret that "proof" as believeable or fallable in OUR eyes and OUR minds. The "Big Bang" makes sense, until you dive a little further and find that even science has discredited it as it is has been "taught" for hundreds of years. Heck, even carbon dating has now been found to be inaccurate and therefore would totally change certain data that relied upon that to prove or discredit certain theories.

So what do you have? You have a great divide. On one side you have belief and on the other you have lack thereof. Each side holding fast to their own, yet it always comes back full circle to the same idea; FAITH. Just like we have FAITH on the sun rising and falling every day. Just like we have FAITH on our children to do well. Just like we have FAITH that our partners don't cheat on us. Just like we have FAITH that the driver stopped at the red light WON'T dart out in front of us. Everyone has FAITH in something at some point in their life or another. Why would it be so hard to understand that some of that FAITH could be focused on the belief that there is a higher power and there is a higher purpose to life? It is no different than anyone having FAITH that the driver of that car stopped at the light, whom you don't know from Adam, is NOT going to dart out in front of you. Do you jam on the brakes every time you see a car at an intersection? Do you live your whole life scared to drive through that intersection? Do you always believe and conduct yourself as if EVERYONE is in fact out to do you harm? Well then, why can't people have some of that same FAITH that it takes all of us not to be basket cases everyday be directed to the belief that a higher power does in fact exist? Faith is faith folks. You can have faith on something or you can have faith on nothing. It is still FAITH. So if you can have it on NOTHING, why can't we have it on SOMETHING?

Anyway, I know Brian was eluding to something else so I'll let the debate go back in that direction.

I just feel that all of these subjects.....God or no God?.....Bible accurate or not?.....organized religion or atheisim?......all of them revert back to the same exact point; FAITH. You either have FAITH on God or you don't. If you do, you stand on one sideline, while the others stand on the other.....all the while LIFE is being played out in the middle of the field in front of both. The question really is: When the "game" is over, which sideline is going to win? ;)

well put jaime, but i dont really see the correlation between the examples and faith. i mean why do we have faith that the person is gonna stop at the light? because we were all brought up seeing others stop at red lights.

why do we have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow? because it did today and the day before.

but when i had put my faith in the christian god, it wasnt there. so now i turn outward looking for something (if there is anything at all).

oh, i hope you dont consider me atheist, cause im not. i just dont believe in a christian god. but i also cannot say there is no god. so i consider myself agnostic, until i see something otherwise.


but yes, back on to my main topic: organized religion and their translations.

[tko]

Millions of people fall victim to religion gone bad. How many terrorists bombing cars and buildings? How many witch hunts? How many TV preachers fleecing little old ladies with empty promises? How many people asking honest questions and being told, "Oh, well you just have to believe."
Is God huge and unapproachable? Does He really just want you to labor, struggle and live in guilt?
Who says you're not smart enough or good enough to think for yourself? Why should you let somebody else do your thinking for you?
Are we really to believe that women are spiritually inferior and must submit to the authority of men?
If God is really powerful and good, why would he allow so much evil and suffering to go on?
These are serious questions-hot potatoes that nobody wants to touch. So I wrote a 7-day course called "The Seven Great Lies of Organized Religion."

Google FTW haha

[integra82786]

The way I see it, people's beliefs are fueled by what they know, or don't know for that matter. Before anyone had ever seen miracles and exorcisms, it was probably a lot easier to believe a man could turn water into wine. We always read of prophets and religious icons having visions, speaking with god, healing the deaf, crippled, and blind...but we don't see miracles like that today that much. Sometimes I feel it's all a matter of perception. Now of course I'm not calling religion a huge magic show to trick peoples minds. I'm simply applying the possibility that religion seems so far fetched because of the fact that it was verbally passed on so much in the early years, and people were probably fooled a little easier back then.
Think about how rumors get spread. Someone hears the details wrong and passes it along as such. Eventually the entire point of the conversation is strayed. I think of religion in the same aspect. Most of them touch on the same morals and values such as peace, good will towards others, forgiveness, and faith. It's just the specifics that everyone gets so drawn apart by. Most of the arguements surrounding beliefs are usually science versus miracles. Can a man physically walk on water? Can a man physically heal the hurt and suffering? I try to stay away from those arguements and focus on the messages within. The ten commandments for instance. Half of them are ways to uphold the lord, and the other half are simply laws on what is considered wrong, many of which are laws in most current societies. And each religion has it's own version of the commandments, yet all voice the same principles.

I'm sure anyone reading this is wondering if I am religious or not. Well, I'm more agnostic than anything, but I do feel that spontaneous generation is impossible, thus the universe was originally created by some exterior power/force/being/element....whatever you wanna call it. In the same sense it's hard to believe that evolution doesn't occur when it's evident and apparent in every day on Earth. Hundreds of species are killed off every day, and yet completely new ones are found in the same amount of time. Clearly evidence of new plants and animals reforming to new environmental conditions. In conclusion, I find myself living my life based on a lot of the morals conveyed in most religions, yet still hold strong to the process of scientific fact. I feel religion is simply something we use to choose what kind of life we want to lead, and the rest is up to what you really feel and believe inside.

[Maniaç]

The way I see it, people's beliefs are fueled by what they know, or don't know for that matter. Before anyone had ever seen miracles and exorcisms, it was probably a lot easier to believe a man could turn water into wine. We always read of prophets and religious icons having visions, speaking with god, healing the deaf, crippled, and blind...but we don't see miracles like that today that much. Sometimes I feel it's all a matter of perception. Now of course I'm not calling religion a huge magic show to trick peoples minds. I'm simply applying the possibility that religion seems so far fetched because of the fact that it was verbally passed on so much in the early years, and people were probably fooled a little easier back then.
Think about how rumors get spread. Someone hears the details wrong and passes it along as such. Eventually the entire point of the conversation is strayed. I think of religion in the same aspect. Most of them touch on the same morals and values such as peace, good will towards others, forgiveness, and faith. It's just the specifics that everyone gets so drawn apart by. Most of the arguements surrounding beliefs are usually science versus miracles. Can a man physically walk on water? Can a man physically heal the hurt and suffering? I try to stay away from those arguements and focus on the messages within. The ten commandments for instance. Half of them are ways to uphold the lord, and the other half are simply laws on what is considered wrong, many of which are laws in most current societies. And each religion has it's own version of the commandments, yet all voice the same principles.

I'm sure anyone reading this is wondering if I am religious or not. Well, I'm more agnostic than anything, but I do feel that spontaneous generation is impossible, thus the universe was originally created by some exterior power/force/being/element....whatever you wanna call it. In the same sense it's hard to believe that evolution doesn't occur when it's evident and apparent in every day on Earth. Hundreds of species are killed off every day, and yet completely new ones are found in the same amount of time. Clearly evidence of new plants and animals reforming to new environmental conditions. In conclusion, I find myself living my life based on a lot of the morals conveyed in most religions, yet still hold strong to the process of scientific fact. I feel religion is simply something we use to choose what kind of life we want to lead, and the rest is up to what you really feel and believe inside.Very well put, +1.

[ISAtlanta300]

Burning all day getting treated by animals, yet feeling pain? How can you if you're are no longer living?[/color]

Have you ever dreamt of eating a certain food, f**king a girl (wet dream), or even dreaming and seeing stuff that you swore were real?

How can you, if your eyes were closed and you were unconscious?

[AtifSajid]

Some good questioning here. There are answers for all of it. Jamie had some real good solid points that are followed in the Islamic religion also. I like the way he based it on all religions.

Some of us on IA have that faith it takes to believe in a GOD, and to believe in the unseen, and believe that when we are sleep, we will have dreams. Most of the times, dreams are something that you think about...DAMN IM GETTING DISTURBED..BE BACK

[atlantamx3]

Joseph Campbell Has some great quotes on religion...

Here are my favs:
We must let go of the life we have planned, so as to accept the one that is waiting for us.

Myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths

Life is without meaning. You bring the meaning to it. The meaning of life is whatever you ascribe it to be. Being alive is the meaning

When you follow your bliss... doors will open where you would not have thought there would be doors, and where there wouldn't be a door for anyone else

God is a metaphor for that which trancends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that

Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble.

The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are


If you have never heard of him, you should read some of his stuff.

[The12lber]

The Abrahamic religions as a whole are garbage.

While the statement that god exists, that god is the designer and creator of all the universe, so on and so forth, is in and of itself unintelligible, unprovable and lacks any supporting evidence at all, the religious texts themselves don't help.

For being the "word of god", the religious texts of these religions are wildly contradictory and encourage immoral practices. Seems more like the works of various human authors to me.

More over, in a historical context, religious institutions have been at the center of incredibly distasteful practices (inquisition, crusades, oppression of minorities in the United States and more over every nation, do I really need to make a laundry list?)

Supernatural religion is a bad thing.

I am not going to argue that without it there would be more good and less evil, but it is undoubtedly a bad thing and totally unnecessary, see above.

And yes, there is such a thing as naturalistic religion that doesn't incorporate anything explicitly supernatural in nature. Buddhism, Martial Arts (take your pick) etc.

[Maniaç]

Have you ever dreamt of eating a certain food, f**king a girl (wet dream), or even dreaming and seeing stuff that you swore were real?

How can you, if your eyes were closed and you were unconscious?Pretty stupid comment, not only can we do that when we're alseep. But also when we're awake. Thoughts are nothing more and nothing less than a brain process, just like what you're saying. Our body may be unconscious but our mind isn't. Therfore your post makes not sense at all.

Are you trying to say that faith and dreams have alot in common? Please explain.

[Thighs]

maniac, your point about being brought up in a religious family makes alot of sense. i was actually going to say something similar, but you beat me to it. i was also brought up in a VERY religious household. i just dont believe most of what ive been taught. i think that the bible is a book full of very good stories with good morals to them, i.e.: dont cheat on your wife, dont murder, etc. im agnostic, but i have friends who are buddhist, islamic, jewish, christian, and even satanist. i dont feel that any of them are wrong for believing what they do, and whether they think i am or not doesnt matter. i think that if they are claiming it just because they were brought up that way, they are kinda dumb, but oh well.

12lber basically explained my next point, so theres no point in repeating it.

people should just think for themselves and decide what they believe on their own. remember in kindergarten when the teacher told you to worry about yourself instead of the kid who was hitting others with the blocks? it makes sense. you arent wrong for believing what you believe, but you ARE wrong for trying to "save" or "convert" others and shoving your beliefs down others throats. i think organized religion is bad in general besides the ones that 12 was talking about, like buddhism.

[redrumracer]

i believe that there is a higher being, but i dont believe without questions. another thing i think is important is not so much "who" or "what" that higher being is just as long as you believe in something.

[Maniaç]

i believe that there is a higher being, but i dont believe without questions. another thing i think is important is not so much "who" or "what" that higher being is just as long as you believe in something.Exactly, same here.

[esiatlanta]

, cause you cant win against close minded people



trueeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee:goodjob::goodjob::goodjob:

[Hulud]

Have you ever dreamt of eating a certain food, f**king a girl (wet dream), or even dreaming and seeing stuff that you swore were real?

How can you, if your eyes were closed and you were unconscious?
1, they werent real
2, its your brain sorting everything

[The12lber]

While the actual dream is metaphysical in nature, dreaming is a natural biological process and has been studied by countless neurologists using the scientific process. It has nothing to do with anything explicitly supernatural in nature or your communication with any supernatural forces.

[ISAtlanta300]

Pretty stupid comment, not only can we do that when we're alseep. But also when we're awake. Thoughts are nothing more and nothing less than a brain process, just like what you're saying. Our body may be unconscious but our mind isn't. Therfore your post makes not sense at all.

Are you trying to say that faith and dreams have alot in common? Please explain.

No I was trying to say that you don't really need to be physically 'touched' to feel pain, or sensations... or fear.....

Also some people believe that whatever part of your mind which makes you "you" is what survives after you die....... your 'soul' so to speak.... and if this is true... this part could easly be tortured......

[ISAtlanta300]

While the actual dream is metaphysical in nature, dreaming is a natural biological process and has been studied by countless neurologists using the scientific process. It has nothing to do with anything explicitly supernatural in nature or your communication with any supernatural forces.

I was not suggesting that either.

[The12lber]

This subject has sparked great heated debates in the past. This time will probably be no different.

The hardest part to convince anyone about any religious belief is that recipient getting their head around the fact that FAITH is something that sometimes can not be defined by tangible things. Scientists rely on fully tangible proof to support their theories. Problem is that even Scientists can't support all their theories with tangible proof either. Therefore, this debate always makes a full circle back to it's origin; FAITH.

There are tons of documentation and scientific proof that in the eye of the beholder proves their view(s) or discredits his opposition. Once again, it is up to US to interpret that "proof" as believeable or fallable in OUR eyes and OUR minds. The "Big Bang" makes sense, until you dive a little further and find that even science has discredited it as it is has been "taught" for hundreds of years. Heck, even carbon dating has now been found to be inaccurate and therefore would totally change certain data that relied upon that to prove or discredit certain theories.

So what do you have? You have a great divide. On one side you have belief and on the other you have lack thereof. Each side holding fast to their own, yet it always comes back full circle to the same idea; FAITH. Just like we have FAITH on the sun rising and falling every day. Just like we have FAITH on our children to do well. Just like we have FAITH that our partners don't cheat on us. Just like we have FAITH that the driver stopped at the red light WON'T dart out in front of us. Everyone has FAITH in something at some point in their life or another. Why would it be so hard to understand that some of that FAITH could be focused on the belief that there is a higher power and there is a higher purpose to life? It is no different than anyone having FAITH that the driver of that car stopped at the light, whom you don't know from Adam, is NOT going to dart out in front of you. Do you jam on the brakes every time you see a car at an intersection? Do you live your whole life scared to drive through that intersection? Do you always believe and conduct yourself as if EVERYONE is in fact out to do you harm? Well then, why can't people have some of that same FAITH that it takes all of us not to be basket cases everyday be directed to the belief that a higher power does in fact exist? Faith is faith folks. You can have faith on something or you can have faith on nothing. It is still FAITH. So if you can have it on NOTHING, why can't we have it on SOMETHING?

Anyway, I know Brian was eluding to something else so I'll let the debate go back in that direction.

I just feel that all of these subjects.....God or no God?.....Bible accurate or not?.....organized religion or atheisim?......all of them revert back to the same exact point; FAITH. You either have FAITH on God or you don't. If you do, you stand on one sideline, while the others stand on the other.....all the while LIFE is being played out in the middle of the field in front of both. The question really is: When the "game" is over, which sideline is going to win? ;)

Contemporary physics doesn't even go back hundreds of years, let alone the "Big Bang" theory. Most of what you said regarding the incomplete nature of science being an incomplete answer is a half truth or a lie. The notion additionally that science is about faith is also complete rubbish. Science is opposite of faith.

Epic fail.

Please organize your ideas better. Looking at that wall of disorganized text gives me a headache.

Also, I find it amusing that "faith" to a Westerner almost always means faith in some a solitary creator who fits the general Abrahamic conceptualization of god almost perfectly.

If you are dumb enough to think that supernatural forces are the only explanation for the existence of the universe, why not assume that the creator was the Hindu pantheon of gods? Or the Titans? Perhaps the cosmic design committee?

[tko]

Contemporary physics doesn't even go back hundreds of years, let alone the "Big Bang" theory. Most of what you said regarding the incomplete nature of science being an incomplete answer is a half truth or a lie. The notion additionally that science is about faith is also complete rubbish. Science is opposite of faith.

Epic fail.

Please organize your ideas better. Looking at that wall of disorganized text gives me a headache.

Also, I find it amusing that "faith" to a Westerner almost always means faith in some a solitary creator who fits the general Abrahamic conceptualization of god almost perfectly.

If you are dumb enough to think that supernatural forces are the only explanation for the existence of the universe, why not assume that the creator was the Hindu pantheon of gods? Or the Titans? Perhaps the cosmic design committee? :lmfao: damn

[Maniaç]

No I was trying to say that you don't really need to be physically 'touched' to feel pain, or sensations... or fear..... Its called our five senses, again, nothing more and nothing less than a brain process.


Also some people believe that whatever part of your mind which makes you "you" is what survives after you die....... your 'soul' so to speak.... and if this is true... this part could easly be tortured......Are you kidding me? Do you seriously believe that? Something that hasn't been discovered will live on as our after life "identity", hmm think about it for a sec. So you think our soul is that special part that holds us from dying? No, if our heart or brain for some reason stop functioning we automatically die! No buts about it, thats life man. We live in the real world, wake up from that dream you're living.

[ISAtlanta300]

Its called our five senses, again, nothing more and nothing less than a brain process.

Are you kidding me? Do you seriously believe that? Something that hasn't been discovered will live on as our after life "identity", hmm think about it for a sec. So you think our soul is that special part that holds us from dying? No, if our heart or brain for some reason stop functioning we automatically die! No buts about it, thats life man. We live in the real world, wake up from that dream you're living.

Just quoting, dude.. don't shoot the messenger...... i said SOME people believe...

[Maniaç]

Just quoting, dude.. don't shoot the messenger...... i said SOME people believe...And I understand that, word of advice. Next time you come into a thread that involves people actually having an arguement over something other than cars or worthless shit, make sure you're ready to back up any post you have with facts and alittle common sense. Im not picking on you, just posting exactly what I thought about your posts.

[allmotoronly]

its always funny to me how most people dont know that Christian God and Islamic God are the same thing. The difference between Christianity and Islam is not much different that the difference between Christianity and Judaism, except the Jews dont blow the Christians up for not being Jewish...

[Hulud]

its always funny to me how most people dont know that Christian God and Islamic God are the same thing. The difference between Christianity and Islam is not much different that the difference between Christianity and Judaism
i hope you arent referring to me, cause i feel the same way you do on that as well

[integra82786]

This thread has gone through so many different arguements and discussions, thats what I love about religion. No one knows whats really true and whats all stories because no one has the proof. Everyone just has opinions. And that's really all any religion started out as, opinions on why we're here and where we go next. I don't think ANYONE has any right to put someone down because of an opinion they might hold. So what no one has proven living beings do or dont have souls. We have proven that no chemical reaction goes without some sort of product. Thus the energy in our bodies must go somewhere. I don't believe that the energy survives in a living state as much, but that you spread it amongst everything you've come in contact with in your life. The people you influenced, the knowledge you passed, the effect you had on society, it all absorbs the essence that used to be you. After your gone, your friends and family still talk about you, the people you tought things to still use you as a reference. You know how when you think about "back in the day", the stuff that makes you smile on the inside, the feeling you get thinking about relatives that passed on before you and the ways they influenced you. It's all energy passing through the air.

[The12lber]

This thread has gone through so many different arguements and discussions, thats what I love about religion. No one knows whats really true and whats all stories because no one has the proof. Everyone just has opinions. And that's really all any religion started out as, opinions on why we're here and where we go next. I don't think ANYONE has any right to put someone down because of an opinion they might hold. So what no one has proven living beings do or dont have souls. We have proven that no chemical reaction goes without some sort of product. Thus the energy in our bodies must go somewhere. I don't believe that the energy survives in a living state as much, but that you spread it amongst everything you've come in contact with in your life. The people you influenced, the knowledge you passed, the effect you had on society, it all absorbs the essence that used to be you. After your gone, your friends and family still talk about you, the people you tought things to still use you as a reference. You know how when you think about "back in the day", the stuff that makes you smile on the inside, the feeling you get thinking about relatives that passed on before you and the ways they influenced you. It's all energy passing through the air.

Actually, the "energy" our body uses to function is derived from chemical reactions in your body. When you die this stops happening in an organized fashion and your body is decomposed by bacteria. That's all there is to dying in a firm, scientific sense.

If you're implying we have some kind of metaphysical spiritual energy, that has no base in fact or link to chemistry, so I'm not sure whats up with the relationship you would be trying to establish.

I realize you think this is all opinions and everyone is neither right nor wrong, but when you try to link your opinion with bad science (pseudoscience and scientific half truths seem to be favorites of the religious) or bad logic, you are indeed wrong.

[Reaper]

After skimming through was everyone has said...Ill make this short.

I consider myself a Christian. I was raised in a fairly religious household, and I personally believe that Ive fallen away from MY faith. Everyone is entitled to there own belief's and opinions, which is why I respect anyones thoughts on whether or not there is a God, or not. Which is why people who call themselves Christians but are ignorant to others beliefs or say they are dead wrong or they are going to hell because of what they think/say pisses me off to no end. I have no toleration for ignorance..


Now, I fully believe that alot of things in the Quaran(spelling?) Torah and Bible were all miss-translated @ somepoint. Do I think it makes THAT big of a difference yes and no...because obviously translation from one language to another can make everything completely different, but historically according artifacts/scripture/etc..I think its overall on point.

But things @ somepoint had to misconstrued...its almost Inevitable.

[integra82786]

im just trying to emphasize that even science can be self contradicting, and has been corrected many times in the past. who knows what we might discover in the years to come.

[The12lber]

im just trying to emphasize that even science can be self contradicting, and has been corrected many times in the past. who knows what we might discover in the years to come.

Science isn't self contradicting because when something is found to be untrue it is amended.

[black]

im just trying to emphasize that even science can be self contradicting, and has been corrected many times in the past. who knows what we might discover in the years to come.The only thing anyone will discover is the truth. The truth that all the storys that were told has no true meaning but a guide to a life of nothing but confusion. With years will come a whole new way life is lived and how we will move forward from all the fairy tails.

[97ITR86]

Religion is such an age old argument that will never be settled. Everyone has a preference and that is what they feel best fits there lifestyle and they can fully understand the meanings behind it. I practice buddhism and was raised in a methodist family. I didn't understand the ways of the bible and felt more comfortable and related better to buddhist believes. No man can ever say his religion is better than another because there is no better or worse choice. As long as you make your choice and live by your religions believes then you have mad the best choice.

Christians kill me with the whole if you don't believe the bible then you will burn in hell. In all reality you have a better change of burning in hell for passing judgement on the way i decide to live my life. You can't knock a religion or someones lack of religious preference because it is a decision one has to make in life. It is really something people should think about before they make dumb comments.

[black]

To me its funny how every religion thinks they're right, how many do we have? Like over 20! Yet they all think their religion is the only one who is true and should be followed. The bible in itself is a book that takes alot of mentality and maturity to truly understand it's true meaning. In the end if you're a good person, thats all that really matters.

[The12lber]

To me its funny how every religion thinks they're right, how many do we have? Like over 20! Yet they all think their religion is the only one who is true and should be followed. The bible in itself is a book that takes alot of mentality and maturity to truly understand it's true meaning. In the end if you're a good person, thats all that really matters.

You didn't think very hard when you put 20 down I hope.

[black]

You didn't think very hard when you put 20 down I hope.Absolutely not, but some people don't really know the exact number so I just decided to throw a random number out there to give them an idea.

[tko]

no more opinions?

[Hulud]

i guess not... lol

[Mayniac]

Everything Maniac and black said, was posted by me. But yes, I guess this thread is done. Didn't turnout the way I thought it would, fun while it lasted though.

[metalman]

We use to have a good christian guy on here who use to havse good conversation anout different religion with many of us. I wonder if he is still around. I havent seen him post in a very long time - Metal?(IA name)




metalman, funny thing is after ive talked with him in person multiple times, i dont think hes not religious, hes just knowledgable (sp?). but i could be wrong

First, thank you AtifSajid for remembering some of the past discussion and recalling it as 'good conversation'.
I dont mind intelligent disagreement, I even welcome and appreciate it as a springboard to greater personal understanding, but often these topics only lead to retarded responses and/flame offs. I appreciate your responses being other then that!

Secondly, Hulud has stated a fairly decent description of who/what I am. I belong to no organized religion. I am not here to 'covert' anyone to any church...just get people to study and think for themselves...if thats possible. Much of my commentary has been directed at so called Christians from their own Book...rather then 'others'. That being said, my beliefs could be described as "christian" in the sense that they often coincide with Biblical teachings.
I have spent a considerable time studying that book from a historic, scientific, and logical perspective, comparing it to what I have observed in life...so I have some knowlege of it. I do believe in Creation and a Creator because scientifically and logically that's what makes the most sense to me and what I see the most physical evidence for.

There are many teachings and principles in the Bible that I find no solid argument against...at least an argument that makes sense....there's always argument. :)

My life is busy enough currently that I have not the time needed to intelligently discuss religion here. And its my old fogie opinion that if I have no time to discuss something intelligently then I say nothing much.

As for the topic...organized religion...in general I believe organized religions to be mostly a complete failure. The reason is that the organizations are of men, controlled and designed of men, and not controlled by a God or Creator...which is mans fault, not God's. In every religion there are those that see things the way they want it, rather then how it actually is. The most obvious examples are Christian, Jewish, & Muslim extremists who persecute and kill people they disagree with. No religion is without blemish in this department. Much is made about Muslim extremists and given the current world situation and happenings thats understandable...but if one is completely and historically honest, the largest quantity of crimes against humanity have been perpetrated by Catholic/Christian entities. Of course, in reality no action excuses the other.

If one investigates the real underlying principles of some religions one will find that SELF, the works of man, are the real center of the focus, even if disguised with rituals and other 'religious' hype. I find such religions mostly worthless and nothing more then mankind admiring himself....but I will not name them here, so dont ask! LOL

Its true that many follow only traditions and the words of pastors, ministers, teachers, priests, gurus, 'holy men' and the like...without much honest personal study, understanding, or growth. That being said, there are "God-like" decent people in every religion, who actually LIVE the principles.

On a side note...
As for science and religion being exact opposites...thats hardly the case. Much (not all) of mankinds science, especially evolutionary science, violates its own basic principles and takes huge amounts of faith to believe. In fact, many scientists have way more faith in unsubstantiated nonsense and theories then Christians, Jews, or Muslims have in their religions. ;)

Okay...back to my cars and parts...I'll leave the serious stuff to you folks. Have fun! ;)

[Maki]

Some one earlier said something about how religions think they are the best and all others are not right. Well i personally am buddhist and some of the teachings say to keep an open mind to others beliefs and opinions. I used to be agnostic until i finnally found something that i could agree with. i have a hard time with one big omnipitant being for some reason. i love religion debates because it gives insight to other peoples state of mind although it is a discussion that will never be finished. I think most religions have been corrupted by man and have alomost lost sight of thier true intensions. most major religions have the same basics but just different stories to back them up. and most religions are left open to interpretation. they have a few set rules but the rest are guidlines. its just sad to see the world fight over who is right and who is wrong when everyonoe is wrong once you resort to violence and anger. i mean honestly, when has anger solved anything in this world.... never........... break time

[bu villain]

On a side note...
As for science and religion being exact opposites...thats hardly the case. Much (not all) of mankinds science, especially evolutionary science, violates its own basic principles and takes huge amounts of faith to believe. In fact, many scientists have way more faith in unsubstantiated nonsense and theories then Christians, Jews, or Muslims have in their religions.

Normally, I don't bother too much with these kinda of discussions but since you seem like a rational person who won't take a logical discussion personally... I'm curious, in what way does evolutionary theory violate the principles of science? I've only heard a handful of arguments (e.g., irreducible complexity) against the "theory of evolution" (there is no law of evolution). And none of them can not be intelligently responded to.

Secondly, why does it take a lot of faith to believe in it? It certainly doesn't take more faith than believing in an all knowing, all powerful being who for some reason gives a **** about whether or not you lie to someone. There is a huge amount of evidence supporting evolutionary theory so I would tend to think it takes very little faith to believe in it. I'm not going to post links here because if you go to any bookstore you can easily find many books on the subject.

Once again, this is not an attack on anyone.

[metalman]

I'm curious, in what way does evolutionary theory violate the principles of science?
I will give one example, although there are others....
A cornerstone of evolutionary earth science relates to radio carbon dating. Simply put, carbon dating isnt accurate. Not even a little. Objects with a known extreme short age can be carbon dated to thousands, even tens of thousands of years old. Using methods that have already been proven as highly inaccurate and unreliable, (and thats being kind) as definitive measuring tools violates any reasonable principle of true science.




Secondly, why does it take a lot of faith to believe in it? .

The likelyhood of every minut interacting lifeform within our earth and perfectly balanced intricate structure therein coming into existence from nothing, merely by chance, over time is FAR LESS then the likelyhood of assembling a complex Rolex time piece by putting all the loose already existing parts in a cardboard box and shaking them until they assemble themselves into a precision functioning timepiece....and that possibility is around zero.
Make no mistake..evolutionary belief takes immense faith....or ignorance...that works too. And by ignorance I mean being uninformed, not stupid. Dont want anyone to think I am attacking them.

[bu villain]

I will give one example, although there are others....
A cornerstone of evolutionary earth science relates to radio carbon dating. Simply put, carbon dating isnt accurate. Not even a little. Objects with a known extreme short age can be carbon dated to thousands, even tens of thousands of years old. Using methods that have already been proven as highly inaccurate and unreliable, (and thats being kind) as definitive measuring tools violates any reasonable principle of true science.

Any idea why carbon dating is still being consistantly used for dating everything if it is so worthless? I found many articles talking about how it can be innacurate if certain things are not taken into account but nothing to say that it is not valid. Do you know of any references to where I can hear your side (please only reputable sources e.g. scientific journals, university publishings etc.) heres a couple talking about its possible innacuracies when improperly performed but they still say it is quite valid.

http://www.et.byu.edu/~adw45/Carbon%20Dating.htm
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1977Natur.270...25P




The likelyhood of every minut interacting lifeform within our earth and perfectly balanced intricate structure therein coming into existence from nothing, merely by chance, over time is FAR LESS then the likelyhood of assembling a complex Rolex time piece by putting all the loose already existing parts in a cardboard box and shaking them until they assemble themselves into a precision functioning timepiece....and that possibility is around zero.
Make no mistake..evolutionary belief takes immense faith....or ignorance...that works too. And by ignorance I mean being uninformed, not stupid. Dont want anyone to think I am attacking them.

I find this to be a very flawed argument. Evolution depends greatly on the concept of natural selection which is the exact opposite of "chance". Natural selection says the "best" traits are passed on, not that random traits are passed on. In your rolex box thought experiment you are effectively disregarding natural selection, the cornerstone of evolution.

Also, you say that it is very unlikely that everything evolved so perfectly balanced but that is not true. It is backwards reasoning to take the end product and say that it is very unlikely given the start. If you are playing poker and you get a 5 of clubs, eight of diamonds, jack of diamonds, 2 of hearts, and 10 of clubs you could say "Wow the odds of me getting those exact five cards was over 1 in 3 hundred million" and you could play poker the rest of your life and maybe never get that hand again but it doesn't mean that the hand was "designed".


Finally, we can both agree that evolution is still a theory but as far as I know, there is no other theory out there with more evidence. Do you know of one?