Will the plane take off? v. Mythbusters!!! (VIDEO on Page 38)

[Ruiner]

The show will air Jan 30th (Wednesday).

Here is a sneak peak:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSBFQOfas60


It's official. We've battled this many times, but now we will know the answer coming up in December. Mythbusters is going to do a show on the internet question that involves the plane and the treadmill. :) :) :)

http://community.discovery.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9801967776/m/5321919039/p/1


Now, we can do a few things with this:

1. I'm going to make a public poll.
2. Perhaps we should start taking bets on this? Ban bets? Money bets? etc.

Will the plane move forward and take off?

Question:

A plane is sitting on a long treadmill. The treadmill is linked to where it will match the speed of the plane, but in reverse. The wheels on the plane are free rolling. The plane will start its engines and try to take off like it normally would. The treadmill is as long as a normal runway. Will the plane be able to move forward on the treadmill and take off?

Get your answers in now. Vote up! Post your bets in here if you want as well. :) Good luck!

[Ruiner]

Speedmonkey, willing to put your money where your mouth is? :)

[ATLtech]

I ****ing can't wait.

[Mr. Clean]

I ****ing can't wait.

you have by far the gayest avatar on IA

[BKgen®]

oh dear God here we go again

http://www.itxp.ca/technology/images/headache.jpg

[The Ren]

i say no

[BKgen®]

i say no

i did too...




...at first. ;)

[antiv6]

i dont think so

[RandomGuy]

it will lift off... like the roller isn't even there... the wheels will be spinning super fast though, it'll probably warp the wheel bearings at that high heat, but yeah it'll lift off

its not driven by the wheels, the wheels are just there to lower friction between the plane and the ground.
Its the propeller or jet that is pushing the plane forward... it'll lift off in the exact same manner... (not in place) it'll just get pushed forward and forward until it reaches liftoff velocity and fly away(like the ducks in duck hunt that you dont shoot within 3 fires)

[d993s]

The plane will take off if it's a Harrier jet.

[Magnus213]

I need clarification on the situation. With respect to the ground (not the belt, the stationary ground) will the plane be moving or not?

I'm not sure if the belt is doubling the takeoff speed or merely matching it so that the plane is not moving relative to the ground.

[ATLtech]

The plain will Take off, if given enough runway.

[d993s]

Of couse the plane will NOT take off.
Think about it; it needs to be traveling fast enough to at least glide, so unless there just happens to be a 150+mph headwind that day, it will NOT take off.

[Jimmy B]

it will.. the jets push the AIR, not spin the wheels..

[Ruiner]

Wow, I can't wait until this show airs. With that said, do any of you "no, it won't take off" people want to make a wager? :)

[coolcat]

If there were 0 friction on the wheel bearings, it would take off for sure, the wheels would just be going double the speed that the plane itself is actually going. Since there is friction in the real world situation I think it will make it more difficult to take off, but since it only needs to be going about 150 to take off, the wheels will be spinning 300mph, which they can probably withstand. It will take off.


Another thing you have to keep in mind is that the wheels are FREE ROLLING, there is no power being supplied to them, so no matter how fast they spin they will never affect the plane itself, except the small amount of friction it is creating. Planes take off using thrust from their turbines, not power to the wheels, the treadmill could be going 1000x faster than the plane is going, it just won't matter because the wheels are not making the plane take off, the propellers are.

[Ruiner]

If there were 0 friction on the wheel bearings, it would take off for sure, the wheels would just be going double the speed that the plane itself is actually going. Since there is friction in the real world situation I think it will make it more difficult to take off, but since it only needs to be going about 150 to take off, the wheels will be spinning 300mph, which they can probably withstand. It will take off.

Friction, while there, is still rather small in the grande scheme of things.

[On_Her_Face]

how can it take off without lift? (aka the air flowing over/under thing wings?) which the air will not flow over the wings because the plane will not be moving in a forward motion if the belt is going the same speed as the plane.

[d993s]

Wow, I can't wait until this show airs. With that said, do any of you "no, it won't take off" people want to make a wager? :)

Given what circumstances will it take off? What type of plane? Adjusting the angle of the jets? Headwind?

Variables can make anything that seems impossible, possible. It all depends on the point you want to prove.

[ATLtech]

how can it take off without lift? (aka the air flowing over/under thing wings?) which the air will not flow over the wings because the plane will not be moving in a forward motion if the belt is going the same speed as the plane.

I guess that would be the better question. Can the plane gain forward momentum on the treadmill?

P.S. it can.

[On_Her_Face]

Given what circumstances will it take off? What type of plane? Adjusting the angle of the jets? Headwind?

Variables can make anything that seems impossible, possible. It all depends on the point you want to prove.

agreed. in my mind im picturing a 747, no modification to the jets and no win. with those variables the plane will not take off

[On_Her_Face]

I guess that would be the better question. Can the plane gain forward momentum on the treadmill?

P.S. it can.

how if they are going the same speed?

[ATLtech]

how if they are going the same speed?

Because the plane engines are what push the vehicle, not the wheels. The only thing the wheels do is roll. So if the plane is going 90MPH, with the tread mill, they will just be spinning at 180MPH

[d993s]

This thread is just like asking if my grandma can knock out Randy Couture; yes, if he was hog-tied and if my grandma had a bat.

[Black R]

why would it take off? the wind providing LIFT just won't be there..... or is this going to be in a wind tunnel or something?

[BKgen®]

agreed. in my mind im picturing a 747, no modification to the jets and no win. with those variables the plane will not take off


that would be a correct assumption... IF the 747 was powered by its wheels

[On_Her_Face]

Because the plane engines are what push the vehicle, not the wheels. The only thing the wheels do is roll. So if the plane is going 90MPH, with the tread mill, they will just be spinning at 180MPH
so a positive 90 mph v a negative 90 mph = positive 180 mph?

[BKgen®]

Because the plane engines are what push the vehicle, not the wheels. The only thing the wheels do is roll. So if the plane is going 90MPH, with the tread mill, they will just be spinning at 180MPH

thank you :goodjob:

[coolcat]

To the people that think it will not take off, here is my best way of explaining it to you -

Imagine taking a plane, with the treadmill going VERY fast, much faster then the maximum speed of the plane, so we'll say 1000mph, now imagine taking the plane from a little bit over the treadmill and dropping it onto it, is the plane going to shoot back at 1000mph? No. It will gradually start rolling the direction of the treadmill, with the wheels spinning 1000mph. Now imagine that you tie down the wings of the plane while it is sitting here on the 1000mph treadmill, is it going to move? No, it will not because the wheels spin freely, no matter how fast the treadmill goes. The plane's engines are just like these ropes holding the plane down, only instead of just countering the force applied by the treadmill it pushes hard enough to cause the plane to over-counter the force pushing the plane backwards on the treadmill, therefor causing it to take off.

[ATLtech]

so a positive 90 mph v a negative 90 mph = positive 180 mph?

Jesus, The wheels will have to spin 2x as fast in order to keep up.

[coolcat]

so a positive 90 mph v a negative 90 mph = positive 180 mph?

You are thinking of how a car would react to being on this treadmill. Not a plane.

LEARN 2 PHYSICS BUD!

[d993s]

that would be a correct assumption... IF the 747 was powered by its wheels

So then take off the wings and attach the jets or propellors to the body! It would then be driven by Craig Breedlove to 600+mph. Take off (in this instance) means off the ground.
Don't you get it? It needs air under it's wings, otherwise the only place it would go is straight, not up. It is NOT a helicopter or a Harrier Jet.

[Jecht]

I'm lol'ing at you idiots who are saying it will take off. The ONLY reason a plane is able to lift off is because of the amount of air going under it's wing span. If it is on a tread mill, the plane is not moving against any air, it is technically rolling in place. Thus, there is no extra air going under the wings to lift the plane off of the ground.

I'll place a wager. If I'm wrong, ban me for a week or two.

Here are some sites for you dumbasses to read. I can't believe nobody else other than d993s and LS2 Kid understands the basic principles of flight.
http://library.thinkquest.org/03oct/00181/airplane-t.html
http://www.howstuffworks.com/airplane.htm

[coolcat]

So then take off the wings and attach the jets or propellors to the body! It would then be driven by Craig Breedlove to 600+mph. Take off (in this instance) means off the ground.
Don't you get it? It needs air under it's wings, otherwise the only place it would go is straight, not up. It is NOT a helicopter or a Harrier Jet.

I would argue with you on this, but your signature tells me not to..











Just kidding, but you are completely wrong. Read what I posted above you.

LEARN 2 PHYSICS!

[Wurm]

ruiner i got 5 on NO

ill paypal if i lose

[On_Her_Face]

You are thinking of how a car would react to being on this treadmill. Not a plane.

LEARN 2 PHYSICS BUD!

i know physics thanks :goodjob:.. i still dont think it will take off.. if it does i guess it fails, but i agree with d993s

[coolcat]

i know physics thanks

Apparently not the force and friction parts of it.

[On_Her_Face]

Apparently not the force and friction parts of it.

i never said anything about friction.. and maybe you need to learn about lift?

[d993s]

This poll also reminds me of this:
If a truck has a flatbed trailer that can be driven upon.........then if the truck is going 70mph, and you approach it from behind at a faster speed in a car, can you climb onto the trailer? Yes, you just have to gauge the speed right and allow enough momentum for the car to climb the trailer; basically, put it in neutral right before the front wheels climb on the trailer (on a FWD otherwise you may mess up the tranny) or just before the rear wheels climb onto the trailer on a RWD car.
Will the car accerate at 80 or so mph when it climbs onto the trailer? No! The weight of the car and it's momentum is far greater than the momentum of the wheels spinning at 80mph.

[coolcat]

ruiner i got 5 on NO

ill paypal if i lose


I got 20 on YES.

PM me for more info anyone that wants to bet on it.

[Wurm]

I got 20 on YES.

PM me for more info anyone that wants to bet on it.
im just betting ruiner just a small bet cause im kinda 40/60 is this theory lol

[d993s]

I'm lol'ing at you idiots who are saying it will take off. The ONLY reason a plane is able to lift off is because of the amount of air going under it's wing span. If it is on a tread mill, the plane is not moving against any air, it is technically rolling in place. Thus, there is no extra air going under the wings to lift the plane off of the ground.

I'll place a wager. If I'm wrong, ban me for a week or two.

Here are some sites for you dumbasses to read. I can't believe nobody else other than d993s and LS2 Kid understands the basic principles of flight.
http://library.thinkquest.org/03oct/00181/airplane-t.html
http://www.howstuffworks.com/airplane.htm


Well said.
Young blonde kid owns many older ignorants on IA.
Nice! +1

[Maniaç]

Nope, it won't.

[BKgen®]

So then take off the wings and attach the jets or propellors to the body! It would then be driven by Craig Breedlove to 600+mph. Take off (in this instance) means off the ground.
Don't you get it? It needs air under it's wings, otherwise the only place it would go is straight, not up. It is NOT a helicopter or a Harrier Jet.

lol, i realize this. Trust me, growing up as a pilot's son, the last thing i need is a lesson about aerodynamics.

here's how the actual problem is worded:

Suppose a plane is on a runway that acts as a conveyer belt. The conveyor belt is as long as a typical runway. The plane moves in one direction, while the conveyer moves in the opposite direction at the same speed as the plane. The (http://showthread.php?t=69925#)wheels of the plane are free-rolling. Will the plane be able to take off?


Notice it says that the conveyor belt is the same size as a typical runway. SO, we know that if the plane were to move forward, there would be plenty of room for it to take off.

Now, i realize that you guys are saying the wheels will roll as the conveyor belt passes by. Well i'm not sure what kind of planes you guys are talking about, but i've never seen one powered by its wheels lol, so the wheels don't matter.

In that case, whether its a moving conveyor belt or a stationary runway, the jet's engines (or the plane's props) will push the plane forward at normal speed as if it were on a regular runway, causing it to get air under its wings.

kthxbye

[coolcat]

Here is a question for the people who say it will NOT lift off -

Do you think that the plane will move forward, relative to the ground? (not relative to the treadmill)

[d993s]

Here is a question for the people who say it will NOT lift off -

Do you think that the plane will move forward, relative to the ground?

If its engines have enough force to overcome the speed of the treadmill, then yes, of course.

[On_Her_Face]

lol, i realize this. Trust me, growing up as a pilot's son, the last thing i need is a lesson about aerodynamics.

here's how the actual problem is worded:



Notice it says that the conveyor belt is the same size as a typical runway. SO, we know that if the plane were to move forward, there would be plenty of room for it to take off.

Now, i realize that you guys are saying the wheels will roll as the conveyor belt passes by. Well i'm not sure what kind of planes you guys are talking about, but i've never seen one powered by its wheels lol, so the wheels don't matter.

In that case, whether its a moving conveyor belt or a stationary runway, the jet's engines (or the plane's props) will push the plane forward at normal speed as if it were on a regular runway, causing it to get air under its wings.

kthxbye

we will NEVER play forza together again. :tongue1:


wanna put a 1 million credit bet on this? loser give the other person 1 million credits on fm2?

[BKgen®]

we will NEVER play forza together again. :tongue1:


wanna put a 1 million credit bet on this? loser give the other person 1 million credits on fm2?

sure. :yes:

i could use a little extra cash.

[On_Her_Face]

sure. :yes:

i could use a little extra cash.

ok bet. but you cant :cry: when you lose

[coolcat]

If its engines have enough force to overcome the speed of the treadmill, then yes, of course.



It does not matter the speed of the conveyer belt, it is all about the energy transfer of the speed of the belt to the plane itself, the energy transfers VERY efficiently to the wheels, but VERY un-efficient at transferring energy from the wheels to the bearings to the plane itself. Since only a TINY TINY fraction of the energy of the belt is being transferred to the plane, the large amount of force from the propellers will overcome this small counter-force, the plane will move forward, and take off.

[BKgen®]

ok bet. but you cant :cry: when you lose

you seem so proud of your stupidity :lmfao:

[On_Her_Face]

you seem so proud of your stupidity :lmfao:


so your saying ur 100% sure it'll take off

[coolcat]

so your saying ur 100% sure it'll take off


Yes, it will take off.

[d993s]

It does not matter the speed of the conveyer belt, it is all about the energy transfer of the speed of the belt to the plane itself, the energy transfers VERY efficiently to the wheels, but VERY un-efficient at transferring energy from the wheels to the bearings to the plane itself. Since only a TINY TINY fraction of the energy of the belt is being transferred to the plane, the large amount of force from the propellers will overcome this small counter-force, the plane will move forward, and take off.

:lmfao:
How?
So you're saying that the wings serve no purpose on a plane, right?

[BKgen®]

Yes, it will take off.

x2 :yes:

[Jimmy B]

wow,.. 2 or 3 wagers.. i would put 50 bucks on it, but ruiner and i have the same theory..

[Ruiner]

how can it take off without lift? (aka the air flowing over/under thing wings?) which the air will not flow over the wings because the plane will not be moving in a forward motion if the belt is going the same speed as the plane.

Actually, the plane WILL move forward. :) Trust me on this...

[Ruiner]

ruiner i got 5 on NO

ill paypal if i lose

I'll take that bet. I'll paypal you if I am wrong as well. :)

[BTLFED]

I think it will take off.

[On_Her_Face]

ok lets say it will move forward, and its as long as a normal runway it will run out of room

[Ruiner]

Want an example of why the treadmill acting on the wheels will have NO effect?

Go into an airport...you know those moving walkways?

Pull the suitcase with wheels on the normal floor. Now, pull that same suitcase on the moving walkway (against the movement of the walkway).

Do you have to exert any extra force? Nope. You pull with the same force. The wheels of the suitcase on the treadmill, however, just spin faster.

[On_Her_Face]

thats true, but im still gonna stand by my first judgement

[On_Her_Face]

Want an example of why the treadmill acting on the wheels will have NO effect?

Go into an airport...you know those moving walkways?

Pull the suitcase with wheels on the normal floor. Now, pull that same suitcase on the moving walkway (against the movement of the walkway).

Do you have to exert any extra force? Nope. You pull with the same force. The wheels of the suitcase on the treadmill, however, just spin faster.

and u need more force (movement) to go forward, correct?

[Ruiner]

thats true, but im still gonna stand by my first judgement

Okay, here is another example...

Take a match-box car and a piece of paper. Put the match box car at one side of the paper and push it across. While the car is rolling, pull the paper back very fast.

The car that you pushed has free rolling wheels like a plane. You pushing it is like a jet's engine pushing through the air. The paper that you pull backwards, is like the treadmill.

Now, when you pull the paper back (pull it back slow, pull it back fast, it doesn't matter), does the car stop or does it keep moving forward?

Guess what, it keeps moving forward just like the plane will move on the treadmill. :)

[BKgen®]

thats true, but im still gonna stand by my first judgement

:lmfao:

http://premium1.uploadit.org/brandonp47//dog20retard.jpg

[Ruiner]

and u need more force (movement) to go forward, correct?

More force? Nope. Pull it with the SAME force. :)

A jet exerts force on the air which pushes it forward. The same with a prop plane as well.

Here is a good example of how the wheels aren't even really needed. They are only there to minimize the friction with the ground as they are free rolling...

Look, Ma, no wheels!

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/TGR/TGR163/pbc51001.jpg

[On_Her_Face]

:lmfao:

http://premium1.uploadit.org/brandonp47//dog20retard.jpg


:lmfao:



































































:umno: lol i'm still gonna stick with it

[On_Her_Face]

More force? Nope. Pull it with the SAME force. :)

A jet exerts force on the air which pushes it forward. The same with a prop plane as well.

Here is a good example of how the wheels aren't even really needed. They are only there to minimize the friction with the ground as they are free rolling...

Look, Ma, no wheels!

http://www.fotosearch.com/comp/TGR/TGR163/pbc51001.jpg



they are hidden and you sir are a lying bastard. lol

[coolcat]

:lmfao:
How?
So you're saying that the wings serve no purpose on a plane, right?

PLEASE show me where I said this. I never said that, all I said is that the force of the propellers are what get the plane moving, the air passing over the wings is what makes it take off. Just because I didn't include that part doesnt mean I am implying it is not correct. That is like me saying that you are racist because you did not say "I like minorities" in your sentance. RACIST.

[Ruiner]

LS2_Kid, put your vote in!!! :)

[BKgen®]

LS2_Kid, put your vote in!!! :)

he's gonna wait until the show's over :lmao:

[On_Her_Face]

LS2_Kid, put your vote in!!! :)

done.

[Wurm]

we will see.... the theory is sound but i have doubt in human error :P

better be one hell of a pilot and the mechanical be off by a little bit for all their calculations to actually work

[Frög]

hahahah wow to all those who said it wont take off!!

[d993s]

PLEASE show me where I said this. I never said that, all I said is that the force of the propellers are what get the plane moving, the air passing over the wings is what makes it take off. Just because I didn't include that part doesnt mean I am implying it is not correct. That is like me saying that you are racist because you did not say "I like minorities" in your sentance. RACIST.

Well you automatically (maybe unknowingly) assume this because it's a plane.
Not a helicopter. Not a Harrier jet. Not a space shuttle. Yes, it can move forward without wind under its wings. No, it will NOT take off (fly) without the necessary force of air under its wings.
The plane needs air UNDER it's wings, that's why I suggested it would work IF it had a 150+mph headwind, or IF you adjust the propellors/jet engines at a greater angle to allow takeoff.

[Ruiner]

Well you automatically (maybe unknowingly) assume this because it's a plane.
Not a helicopter. Not a Harrier jet. Not a space shuttle. Yes, it can move forward without wind under its wings. No, it will NOT take off (fly) without the necessary force of air under its wings.
The plane needs air UNDER it's wings, that's why I suggested it would work IF it had a 150+mph headwind, or IF you adjust the propellors/jet engines at a greater angle to allow takeoff.

Try the example with the match-box car that I said.

Trust me, the plane will move forward, accelerate, and eventually take off.

[On_Her_Face]

Try the example with the match-box car that I said.

Trust me, the plane will move forward, accelerate, and eventually take off.

but will it eventually take off in a run way's distance?

[Ruiner]

but will it eventually take off in a run way's distance?

Yessir. All it has to do is overcome the small friction in the wheels. Once that is done, the plane moves forward faster and faster.

[Jimmy B]

but will it eventually take off in a run way's distance?

no-where in the question that was posted, was satid how long the runway had to be..

[On_Her_Face]

no-where in the question that was posted, was satid how long the runway had to be..

ohh ya i forgot i can't ask questions without ur approval :rolleyes: my bad

[d993s]

Try the example with the match-box car that I said.

Trust me, the plane will move forward, accelerate, and eventually take off.

Take off from the treadmill? No.
Once it clears the treadmill it needs sufficient lift under its wings to leave the ground, unless its power output is increased at least 3x AND it is pointed up, vertically, off the treadmill.
Is the treadmill flat, or at a 45 degree angle?

[Wurm]

Take off from the treadmill? No.
Once it clears the treadmill it needs sufficient lift under its wings to leave the ground, unless its power output is increased at least 3x AND it is pointed up, vertically, off the treadmill.
Is the treadmill flat, or at a 45 degree angle?
reposter

[turbosx©]

i say its gonna take off.

[BKgen®]

i say its gonna take off.

God that sig is disgusting

[dorin48]

The plane won't lift off unless it physically moves forward. Remember kiddies lift is crated by accelerating air over one side of the wing. If the atmosphere doesn't move across the surface area of the wings the plane will not lift off.

They also fail to mention if they are going to allow the plane to make progress down the tread mill all I see is talk of a matched speed. Secondly, is the plane being supported at the speed or are the engines of the plane matching the speed? Third, what is the treadmill's speed? If its 5mph big deal but if its lets say 200mph and the planes engines are doing the work to keep up then there is the problem of reserve power to out match the treadmill IF its allowed to make forward progress.

Lets say the treadmill doesnt end, then yes the plane will take off but it will requier more energy. It has to make up for the friction of the rotating wheels.

Long story short there isnt enough information in the question to answer it correctly.

So on that note i win the bets gimmie all your money lol.

[Jimmy B]

ohh ya i forgot i can't ask questions without ur approval :rolleyes: my bad

i was just stating a fact that it was not said... dont get your panties in a wad

and yes, you have my aprovial now.. :taun:

[umairejaz]

The plan will take off. My bet: $50

[coolcat]

The plane won't lift off unless it physically moves forward.

IT WILL MOVE FORWARD!!!!!!

I cannot wait for this show to air. :D

[Ruiner]

Take off from the treadmill? No.
Once it clears the treadmill it needs sufficient lift under its wings to leave the ground, unless its power output is increased at least 3x AND it is pointed up, vertically, off the treadmill.
Is the treadmill flat, or at a 45 degree angle?

If the treadmill is the length of whatever length a normal runway needs to be, it will gain enough speed and finally take off.

You said that it WILL clear the treadmill, so you admit that it will move forward. Well, given a long enough treadmill (typical runway), it will gain speed and lift.

[Ruiner]

IT WILL MOVE FORWARD!!!!!!

I cannot wait for this show to air. :D

I can't, either. :)

[Ruiner]

d993s, vote up!

[redrumracer]

after thinking about this for a long time i say it will. i used to say that it wont, but if you think about how an airplane works then you will realize that it will take of. a plane doesnt depend on ground speed but rather its speed through the air.

[ep9716]

No.....I Don't Think The Plane Will Have Any Lift...That Sh1t Could Go 200 Mph...With No Lift Theres No Flying..

But Idk....Lets Wait And See..

[umairejaz]

No one taking my bet? I'm willing to raise it.

[crf150]

im a student pilot, i already soloed in a cherokee 180, but im still confused about the experiment. will the plain have its own power?

[On_Her_Face]

im a student pilot, i already soloed in a cherokee 180, but im still confused about the experiment. will the plain have its own power?


you sure ur a student pilot? LMFAO :lmfao:

[Deke]

damn, not this again. Can't wait for the show.

[crf150]

yeeeeaaaa i fly 8891J out of berry hill. and sometimes out of tara.

[Benefit]

fukk every1, the plane will crash into a building

[On_Her_Face]

yeeeeaaaa i fly 8891J out of berry hill. and sometimes out of tara.

so you fly plaines?

[crf150]

would u like to see a copy off license?

[Echonova]

I have not read one post in this thread, but are we really gonna start this debate again?????? FTL. Make it past 7th grade and you have your answer.

[Benefit]

would u like to see a copy off license?

im guessing english isnt your 1st language

[Echonova]

would u like to see a copy off license?Yes.

[On_Her_Face]

would u like to see a copy off license?

yes i would like to see you're PLAIN liscense

[Echonova]

im a student pilot, i already soloed in a cherokee 180, but im still confused about the experiment. will the plain have its own power? ..

[crf150]

here it is

[On_Her_Face]

lol echo with his ****ing pictures

[On_Her_Face]

here it is

ohh so you fly planes?


i thought you said you flew plaines

[crf150]

pylots dont have tu spel gud. u should see the pilots delta has now. there training time is down to like a 1/4 of what it used to be.

[Echonova]

here it is
I'm sorry; I meant your current one, that expired in '06. Also there was no name to identify as it as being yours. Clarification is needed.

[crf150]

thats because i stopped training. im gonna start from the beginning again at mtsu. all i need to renew is a physical i think. so go to my myspace for my name im not going post up my drivers license.

[Echonova]

thats because i stopped training. im gonna start from the beginning again at mtsu. all i need to renew is a physical i think. so go to my myspace for my name im not going post up my drivers license.You don't have to post your drivers license. Your Social Security # or a major credit card is all I need for verification.

[crf150]

maybe if i had a credit card....i gotta go to bed im goin to school in the mornin...its been a blast.

[.blank cd]

Plane doesnt get off the ground(lift, not bouncing or falling) under a conveyor. My bet: Pink slips to this

[Fast Shadow]

We've known the answer to this for years. It's Newtonian ****ing physics. If you answer no you should kill yourself now.

[Magnus213]

If the plane is accelerating relative to stationary ground (not the treadmill- stationary ground) and the treadmill is of infinite length, the plane will take off. If the plane is not moving relative to the ground, it's not going anywhere.

Air moving around (specifically over and under) the wings creates lift; if the plane it not moving relative to the ground, that also means that it's not moving relative to the air around it (assuming zero wind). No air flow over the wing = no lift = you're not going anywhere.

[GTScoob]

Air moving around (specifically over and under) the wings creates lift; if the plane it not moving relative to the ground, that also means that it's not moving relative to the air around it (assuming zero wind). No air flow over the wing = no lift = you're not going anywhere.
Yup. I've always said no to this but I've also interpreted it as the conveyor belt is freewheeling and unpowered so that it matches whatever forward speed the plane has with an equal backwards speed. Overall velocity is zero since no distance is covered, with no headwind its airspeed is zero and no lift will be generated.

If the conveyor belt is at a constant speed then yes the plane should be able to accelerate and take off in time. The problem is vague and left open to lots of interpretation.

[IDCoconut]

I'm not reading through the entire thread.....

But the plane, in theory, WILL MOVE FORWARD, it will have to work a little harder because the wheels, even free rolling, has a lot of friction within itself (bearings, etc.). The reason the plane will move forwards is because the plane's propulsion is not via the wheels, it is via the jets which are mounted on the wings and have no relation to how fast or slow the wheels are spinning. The wheels are merely there to hold the plane up, not move it forward.

This is my take on it. If you're takeoff throttle position is @ wide open throttle and it takes you 45seconds to reach takeoff speed, it may take a little longer to reach takeoff speed with a conveyor belt going in reverse for the simple fact that the wheels will be creating friction on its bearings that the jets have to overcome.

That's my take. So I vote YES that it will take off.

[RandomGuy]

20 bux paypal on it'll lift off... anyone wanna take me up on that?

[Wurm]

We've known the answer to this for years. It's Newtonian ****ing physics. If you answer no you should kill yourself now.
its easy to make something work on paper but to make it work it real life is a different story. A lot more other factors are going to play apart in this then you think. Paper is based on a error free worlds so we will see what happens

[Ruiner]

its easy to make something work on paper but to make it work it real life is a different story. A lot more other factors are going to play apart in this then you think. Paper is based on a error free worlds so we will see what happens

Not really. Science is science. You've seen the "small scale" models work on Youtube and whatnot. It will still perform the same in a large scale model as well. That's what models are...

[Ruiner]

Yup. I've always said no to this but I've also interpreted it as the conveyor belt is freewheeling and unpowered so that it matches whatever forward speed the plane has with an equal backwards speed. Overall velocity is zero since no distance is covered, with no headwind its airspeed is zero and no lift will be generated.

If the conveyor belt is at a constant speed then yes the plane should be able to accelerate and take off in time. The problem is vague and left open to lots of interpretation.

But you are contradicting the question...

The question says that the treadmill MATCHES the speed of the plane. If the plane is stationary (ie, it has no speed), then neither does the treadmill.

[Ruiner]

I'm not reading through the entire thread.....

But the plane, in theory, WILL MOVE FORWARD, it will have to work a little harder because the wheels, even free rolling, has a lot of friction within itself (bearings, etc.). The reason the plane will move forwards is because the plane's propulsion is not via the wheels, it is via the jets which are mounted on the wings and have no relation to how fast or slow the wheels are spinning. The wheels are merely there to hold the plane up, not move it forward.

This is my take on it. If you're takeoff throttle position is @ wide open throttle and it takes you 45seconds to reach takeoff speed, it may take a little longer to reach takeoff speed with a conveyor belt going in reverse for the simple fact that the wheels will be creating friction on its bearings that the jets have to overcome.

That's my take. So I vote YES that it will take off.

The highlighted part is something that should be mentioned. They actually have a LITTLE friction in respect to everything else, not a lot. Compare it to the thrust of a jet or the prop of an airplane. I'm just clearing that up for you.

[BABY J]

thats because i stopped training. im gonna start from the beginning again at mtsu. all i need to renew is a physical i think. so go to my myspace for my name im not going post up my drivers license.

No. You're gonna need a phy and 7 hours w/ an IP. Ask me how I know.:goodjob:

[Ruiner]

I can't wait for this show to air so that you people that said "no" will see why you are wrong... Then again, maybe you'll never see it...

[joecoolfreak]

I think it's interesting that the people who say no seem to be so sure...yet aren't taking any of the numerous bets for the yes side. I personally will throw 100/per person paypal on the yes side for any takers on the no side. =-)

[BuBBa DRiFT]

anyone willing to make a permanent ban wager with me?

I say the plane WILL take off if they can obtain the velocity needed for the plan to take off.

If I lose this bet, ban me permanently, if the person i bet with, loses the bet, they are banned permanently. PM me if you want this challenge.

[BuBBa DRiFT]

to all the smart people saying YES, quit explaining it!, we have a chance to get money and stuff, they will find out soon enough when they are handing over the benjaminssssssss

[On_Her_Face]

anyone willing to make a permanent ban wager with me?

I say the plane WILL take off if they can obtain the velocity needed for the plan to take off.

If I lose this bet, ban me permanently, if the person i bet with, loses the bet, they are banned permanently. PM me if you want this challenge.


uncertain you sound.

[Echonova]

anyone willing to make a permanent ban wager with me?

I say the plane WILL take off if they can obtain the velocity needed for the plan to take off.

If I lose this bet, ban me permanently, if the person i bet with, loses the bet, they are banned permanently. PM me if you want this challenge.Of course the plane will take off IF it obtains the velocity it needs......

[BuBBa DRiFT]

uncertain you sound.


i dont know if they will be able to obtain the speed needed in their experiment. i mean, theoretically its possible, i know. but what im saying is, what if something goes wrong in their experiment and people quote me saying "Oh, well the plane didnt take off so you lose the bet LOLOLOLO" Im trying to protect myself from douchebags is all.


IM going to rephrase it:

I am willing to put anything on the line, that in fact, if nothing goes wrong in their experiment, and they have the capability of sense, to achieve the correct specifications to make the plane theoretically take off, the plane will, indeed take off.

does that help any?

[fucksohc]

how could the plane take off if it isnt moving?

[On_Her_Face]

i dont know if they will be able to obtain the speed needed in their experiment. i mean, theoretically its possible, i know. but what im saying is, what if something goes wrong in their experiment and people quote me saying "Oh, well the plane didnt take off so you lose the bet LOLOLOLO" Im trying to protect myself from douchebags is all.


IM going to rephrase it:

I am willing to put anything on the line, that in fact, if nothing goes wrong in their experiment, and they have the capability of sense, to achieve the correct specifications to make the plane theoretically take off, the plane will, indeed take off.

does that help any?

yes and no.. no because part of the experiment is getting everything right and if something goes wrong thats their fault u know..

btw on the trade how much cash were u wanting on my end 10k or 11k?

[Ruiner]

how could the plane take off if it isnt moving?

If the plane isn't moving, neither is the treadmill. Remember, the treadmill matches the speed of the plane...

The plane will move forward, trust me. :)

[RUENVUS]

I teach peeps to fly and don't even know the answer. I'm half no and half yes i guess. When does the show air?

[Ruiner]

I teach peeps to fly and don't even know the answer. I'm half no and half yes i guess. When does the show air?

Dec 12th

You should know given that your wheels are free rolling...

[Kyle]

I stand by my answer from the other poll. YES.

The wheels are free rolling. Its not like a car where the wheels propel the car. If a car were on the treadmill and the treadmill matched its speed it would be stationary. A plane however is not propelled by the wheels, its moved by thrust of a jet engine. So it would definitely move forward, and likely take off.

But mythbusters are just hack engineers IMHO, I dont really trust their work.

[Echonova]

I stand by my answer from the other poll. YES.

But mythbusters are just hack engineers IMHO, I dont really trust their work.X2

[Crazy Asian]

I hate these sort perplex problems. Youll never know till you try....which is what I hate.

[RUENVUS]

Dec 12th

You should know given that your wheels are free rolling...

Marks Dec. 12 on calender. Ok, so my wheels are free rolling, does that mean that there is a certain velocity of air for the wing to produce sufficient lift? I only took basic physics in college, so this may be out of my grasp. But I was always taught that there had to be some sort of velocity over the wing to produce lift. One of the main factors of the lift equation is velocity. I've confused myself:thinking:

[IDCoconut]

^ And how does an airplane produce its lift? By moving its big ass self forward. Now HOW does it move forward? Via the prop/jet/whatever, not the wheels.

It's not saying that the plane will take off by rolling it on a treadmill, it's saying the plane will still take off by using its own power even if it is on a treadmill where the platform is spinning reverse to the plane's wheel rotation.

[IDCoconut]

how could the plane take off if it isnt moving?

it doesn't. planes actually just teleport to their destination. the things you see in the sky are just paper airplanes.

[Dietcoke]

The plane will simply move forward and take off, just like it would on a fixed surface. The wheels will just be spinning twice as fast, they don't propel it. The plane is not linked to the surface of the ground, so why would it moving one way or the other have any effect on THRUST? Oh, it doesnt. Idiots.

[d993s]

If the treadmill is the length of whatever length a normal runway needs to be, it will gain enough speed and finally take off.

You said that it WILL clear the treadmill, so you admit that it will move forward. Well, given a long enough treadmill (typical runway), it will gain speed and lift.

I hate repeating myself, but what the hell........
I just want to make sure you're still insisting it will fly off the treadmill........

Sure, it will move forward if full throttle power overcomes the speed of the treadmill, but it needs sufficient LIFT under its wings to fly, which it will NOT have if its barely going 5-10mph.
Why is this so difficult for you to understand?
Lift is required for a plane to fly. Forward motion at a high rate of speed (all relative to the size, weight, and wing angle/size of the plane) are what allow it to CREATE lift due to air passing under its wings. So then if the plane is on a treadmill, how is lift provided for it to take off? Again, it is NOT a helicopter or anything rocket powered that ascends vertically. GET IT? :rolleyes:

[Fast Shadow]

There is nothing for it to overcome, which is what you don't understand. The wheels don't drive the plane, the engines do. The fact you're still arguing about this shows you never took a physics class in your life.

Go look at a moving walkway at an airport. Now imagine there is a rope tied to a pole at one end of the walkway. Now imagine you're standing on a skateboard, holding onto the rope, at the other end of the walkway. You can use the rope to pull yourself from one end of the walkway to the the other using the same amount of effort regardless if the walkway is turned on or off.

Get it?

[d993s]

There is nothing for it to overcome, which is what you don't understand. The wheels don't drive the plane, the engines do. The fact you're still arguing about this shows you never took a physics class in your life.

Go look at a moving walkway at an airport. Now imagine there is a rope tied to a pole at one end of the walkway. Now imagine you're standing on a skateboard, holding onto the rope, at the other end of the walkway. You can use the rope to pull yourself from one end of the walkway to the the other using the same amount of effort regardless if the walkway is turned on or off.

Get it?

Yes, it will move forward, but not up.
Why didn't you just ask me what color the red car is?

[Magnus213]

There is nothing for it to overcome, which is what you don't understand. The wheels don't drive the plane, the engines do. The fact you're still arguing about this shows you never took a physics class in your life.

Go look at a moving walkway at an airport. Now imagine there is a rope tied to a pole at one end of the walkway. Now imagine you're standing on a skateboard, holding onto the rope, at the other end of the walkway. You can use the rope to pull yourself from one end of the walkway to the the other using the same amount of effort regardless if the walkway is turned on or off.

Get it?
This analogy is exactly correct because the speed of the moving sidewalk is constant. Is the speed of the runway constant in the problem, or does it change to match the speed of the wheels?

[d993s]

Take off (in this instance) means FLY. As in UP IN THE SKY, like birds or Superman.

Some of you can't seem to grasp the concept of flight, especially how a plane flies.

[speedminded]

Sweeet, why didn't anyone tell me about this thread! I'm gonna bump the other one now just for shits and giggles :tongue:

[Fast Shadow]

Of course it will move up, because it will gain lift and take off. It will use the same amount of runway to take off regardless of whether or not the runway is solid concrete or a moving conveyor belt.

[speedminded]

Yes, it will move forward, but not up.
Why didn't you just ask me what color the red car is?WTF :slap: If it can move forward then what's preventing lift and it taking off just like any other runway?!

[RUENVUS]

^ And how does an airplane produce its lift? By moving its big ass self forward. Now HOW does it move forward? Via the prop/jet/whatever, not the wheels.

It's not saying that the plane will take off by rolling it on a treadmill, it's saying the plane will still take off by using its own power even if it is on a treadmill where the platform is spinning reverse to the plane's wheel rotation.

Understood, but in the real world, friction comes into play. If the pilot throttles back, the friction in the tires, bearings, etc. will cause the the "treadmill" speed to be of a higher velocity than the wheels rotating on the plane. If there is a long enough runway, yes the plane will take off, as the thrust will over come the treadmill speed.

[speedminded]

Now, we can do a few things with this:

1. I'm going to make a public poll.
2. Perhaps we should start taking bets on this? Ban bets? Money bets? etc.

Get your answers in now. Vote up! Post your bets in here if you want as well. :) Good luck!I vote for a 5 year ban for those that say it won't take off! :tongue:

[speedminded]

Understood, but in the real world, friction comes into play. If the pilot throttles back, the friction in the tires, bearings, etc. will cause the the "treadmill" speed to be of a higher velocity than the wheels rotating on the plane. If there is a long enough runway, yes the plane will take off, as the thrust will over come the treadmill speed.The speed of the treadmill has no bearing on anything, it can be going twice the speed in reverse as the take-off speed of the plane and it still doesn't matter one bit...it will only makes the wheels spin faster.

[d993s]

Of course it will move up, because it will gain lift and take off. It will use the same amount of runway to take off regardless of whether or not the runway is solid concrete or a moving conveyor belt.

HOW will it gain lift? It needs a high velocity of air under it's wings (which it clearly won't have by traveling at a few mph relative to the ground).

Where is the lift coming from? Maybe if you angle the treadmill at 45 degrees and if the engines have enough power to launch it up like a Harrier Jet.

:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:

[RUENVUS]

The speed of the treadmill has no bearing on anything, it can be going twice the speed in reverse as the take-off speed of the plane and it still doesn't matter one bit...it will only makes the wheels spin faster.

ok, i voted yes

[speedminded]

HOW will it gain lift? It needs a high velocity of air under it's wings (which it clearly won't have by traveling at a few mph relative to the ground).

Where is the lift coming from? Maybe if you angle the treadmill at 45 degrees and if the engines have enough power to launch it up like a Harrier Jet.

:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:Think about what you are saying, what (if anything) is preventing the plane from propelling itself forward?

[d993s]

WTF :slap: If it can move forward then what's preventing lift and it taking off just like any other runway?!

Air under its wings, DUH!!!!!!!

:rolleyes:

You're almost saying that if you're in a gym in Atlanta and jog on a treadmill for 20 miles, when you're done jogging you end up in Suwanee.

[speedminded]

Air under its wings, DUH!!!!!!!

:rolleyes:

That's just like saying that if you're in a gym in Atlanta and jog on a treadmill for 20 miles, when you're done jogging you end up in Suwanee.A humans location/direction/speed is controlled by their legs right? Which is in direct contact with the ground right? A car on a dyno is propelled by it's wheels right, which is in direct contact with the ground correct?

BUT what are planes powered by, what propels it?

[d993s]

Think about what you are saying, what (if anything) is preventing the plane from propelling itself forward?

Forward, yes. I never said it won't go forward.
But it will NOT fly (up in the air) UNLESS: (and these factors do NOT apply here, otherwise they would have been listed)
1. The treadmill is sufficiently angled to allow launching up, not straight forward.
2. The engines are angled to provide vertical (vs typical horizontal) thrust.
3. It is a Harrier Jet.
4. The treadmill is at a high elevation and has a drop-off point which will allow enough distance through the air for the plane to start acceleration fast enough to stay in the air.

Get it?

[speedminded]

Forward, yes. I never said it won't go forward.
But it will NOT fly (up in the air) UNLESS: (and these factors do NOT apply here, otherwise they would have been listed)
1. The treadmill is sufficiently angled to allow launching up, not straight forward.
2. The engines are angled to provide vertical (vs typical horizontal) thrust.
3. It is a Harrier Jet.
4. The treadmill is at a high elevation and has a drop-off point which will allow enough distance through the air for the plane to start acceleration fast enough to stay in the air.

Get it?Are you serious? Did someone pay you to come on here and fuck with people? lol.

If the plane can and will propel itself forward then how will lift not be created and the plane take off?

You ever seen a normal airplane take off on a normal runway? It's level isn't? Do their engines rotate vertically to take off? Is the runway a giant ramp?

[speedminded]

Here's one for all that said no to think about...

The earth is spinning at over 1,000 miles per hour yet thousands of airplanes take off every single day with no problems at all. If a plane couldn't take off on a "treadmill" then not a single plane could ever take off anywhere on earth.

[VooDooXII]

I'd say no...it needs air rushing over the wings to create lift.

Don't argue with Mr. Georgia Tech over here.

[speedminded]

I'd say no...it needs air rushing over the wings to create lift.

Don't argue with Mr. Georgia Tech over here....and what is that magical force that is preventing the air from rushing over and under the wings Mr. Georgia Tech?

[d993s]

A humans location/direction/speed is controlled by their legs right? Which is in direct contact with the ground right? A car on a dyno is propelled by it's wheels right, which is in direct contact with the ground correct?

BUT what are planes powered by, what propels it?

A plane is propelled by its engine propellors or thrust from its jet engines (depending on what it has). It is propelled FORWARD, not up.
But it also needs wings which provide lift, assuming enough air velocity is pushing the wings UP.
A plane has wings because its meant to fly, not just go forward on land like Craig Breedlove's wingless jet car. Understand?

[St0lenR]

A plane is sitting on a long treadmill. The treadmill is linked to where it will match the speed of the plane, but in reverse. The wheels on the plane are free rolling. The plane will start its engines and try to take off like it normally would. Will the plane be able to move forward on the treadmill and take off?

the plane will take off then immediately start to fall back down...this has been done before

[VooDooXII]

...and what is that magical force that is preventing the air from rushing over and under the wings Mr. Georgia Tech?

The plane wouldn't be moving...would it? It's on a treadmill. The thrust alone won't propel it into the air. It needs forward motion to take off.

Alright, let me make sure that I'm understanding this correctly.

The plane is on a treadmill. It would have to maintain a certain thrust to counter the backward movement of the treadmill right?

It couldn't just take off like a Harrier... :thinking:

[speedminded]

A plane is propelled by its engine propellors or thrust from its jet engines (depending on what it has). It is propelled FORWARD, not up.
But it also needs wings which provide lift, assuming enough air velocity is pushing the wings UP.
A plane has wings because its meant to fly, not just go forward on land like Craig Breedlove's wingless jet car. Understand?If a plane is propelling itself forward then how is there not automatically lift at the wings???

[speedminded]

The plane wouldn't be moving...would it? It's on a treadmill. The thrust alone won't propel it into the air. It needs forward motion to take off.

Alright, let me make sure that I'm understanding this correctly.

The plane is on a treadmill. It would have to maintain a certain thrust to counter the backward movement of the treadmill right?

It couldn't just take off like a Harrier... :thinking:The "treadmill" is the size of a normal runway or whatever the plane requires for take off, it doesn't matter...just say it's 10,000 feet long, 2 miles, whatever.

[VooDooXII]

The "treadmill" is the size of a normal runway or whatever the plane requires for take off, it doesn't matter...just say it's 10,000 feet long, 2 miles, whatever.

Right right...but if the speed of the treadmill is linked to the speed of the plane, then it won't have any forward motion. It can't take off on thrust alone...unless it's a Harrier or something.

In the case of the Ultralight...I'd still say no. It needs air rushing over the wings!

[speedminded]

A plane is sitting on a long treadmill. The treadmill is linked to where it will match the speed of the plane, but in reverse. The wheels on the plane are free rolling. The plane will start its engines and try to take off like it normally would. Will the plane be able to move forward on the treadmill and take off?

the plane will take off then immediately start to fall back down...this has been done beforewho says? and who's done it? I don't recall anyone with the money willing to spend it on a scaled version of this situation...

If the plane reaches take-off speed and takes off then why would if fall back down?

[speedminded]

Right right...but if the speed of the treadmill is linked to the speed of the plane, then it won't have any forward motion. It can't take off on thrust alone...unless it's a Harrier or something.

In the case of the Ultralight...I'd still say no. It needs air rushing over the wings!Mr. Georgia Tech, remove ALL thoughts and ideas of a person running on a treadmill or a car on a dyno from your head. What powers an airplane, how does it propel itself forward?

[VooDooXII]

Mr. Georgia Tech, remove ALL thoughts and ideas of a person running on a treadmill or a car on a dyno from your head. What powers an airplane, how does it propel itself forward?

Propellors/Jet Turbines...I know...it isn't wheel driven.

It just isn't making sense in my head. It won't move forward because of the friction between the tires and the runway.

[David88vert]

No force is being exerted from the wheels onto the treadmill. Please explain to me what force is supposed to turn the treadmill. As the thrust pushes the plane forward, it will do just that - push the plane forward. Eventually, the plane will be fast enough to take off due to the force of lift on the wings. The treadmill has no reason to move - unless you bring in another force of actually putting an external motor on the treadmill and manually making it match the force of the engines - in that case, and that case only, the plane would not move forward, thus no creation of lift for the plane.

[d993s]

Are you serious? Did someone pay you to come on here and fuck with people? lol.

If the plane can and will propel itself forward then how will lift not be created and the plane take off?

You ever seen a normal airplane take off on a normal runway? It's level isn't? Do their engines rotate vertically to take off? Is the runway a giant ramp?

Yes, I've seen it many times. And I've flown many times. That's not the point.
What you (and many others) are not understanding is the simple fact that a plane needs sufficient air velocity (a force or air) under its wings to fly.......unless of course its a jet that is propelled vertically. So then where is that force of air from which the plane depends on lift..... coming from???
A plane is not designed to lift vertically from a stop into the air. The Harrier Jet IS. We're not talking about a Harrier Jet, or a rocket, or a missile.

Are you telling me that if you cut off a birds wings, but if the bird runs fast enough, then it can still fly????? :lmfao:
You don't have to be a physics major to understand this.

My first question in this thread was "under what circumstances"?

That's just it right there; to prove a point, many will sway the variables in their direction to prove a point.

Mythbusters is the biggest waste of time and money. They don't explore variables. Instead, they choose whatever fits their particular reasoning to prove a point. They already know the answer. I remember watching the episode when they added acetone to the fuel in a car and they didn't get any HP or MPG increase. Why? Simply because they left out part of the equation: they did not tune for it. Acetone effectively increases octane, but it must be run at a richer a/f mixture. (I'd like to volunteer on their show to prove how nitrous does NOT add more power to an engine because I will leave leave out the small detail of it requiring extra fuel to produce more power).

[VooDooXII]

No force is being exerted from the wheels onto the treadmill. Please explain to me what force is supposed to turn the treadmill. As the thrust pushes the plane forward, it will do just that - push the plane forward. Eventually, the plane will be fast enough to take off due to the force of lift on the wings. The treadmill has no reason to move - unless you bring in another force of actually putting an external motor on the treadmill and manually making it match the force of the engines - in that case, and that case only, the plane would not move forward, thus no creation of lift for the plane.

:eek:

This clears up everything. I thought the treadmill would be run at a speed opposite to what the plane was traveling.

So basically, the plane is running on a treadmill that is off?

It'll take off...simple. The wheels aren't driven.

[David88vert]

Forward, yes. I never said it won't go forward.
But it will NOT fly (up in the air) UNLESS: (and these factors do NOT apply here, otherwise they would have been listed)
1. The treadmill is sufficiently angled to allow launching up, not straight forward.
2. The engines are angled to provide vertical (vs typical horizontal) thrust.
3. It is a Harrier Jet.
4. The treadmill is at a high elevation and has a drop-off point which will allow enough distance through the air for the plane to start acceleration fast enough to stay in the air.

Get it?

Wow, you didn't graduate high school, did you?

The plane's thrust only propel the aircraft, they do not lift it off of the ground. Lift must be produced to get the plane off of the ground. The design of the wing great differences in pressure to produce lift. The angle the plane is facing is not the determining factor of the aircraft's ability to take-off. The angle that matters is that of the wings, and that factor can controlled by the flaps.
Here, went and got you a link: http://travel.howstuffworks.com/airplane8.htm

[speedminded]

Propellors/Jet Turbines...I know...it isn't wheel driven.

It just isn't making sense in my head. It won't move forward because of the friction between the tires and the runway.The friction is so minimal your campus probably doesn't have the equipment to measure it. If the "treadmill" matches the speed of the plane (keywords, SPEED OF PLANE...which means it is indeed going somewhere ;) ) then the only difference between a plane taking off on a runway and a plane taking off on a "treadmill" is the speed of the wheels.

[speedminded]

:eek:

This clears up everything. I thought the treadmill would be run at a speed opposite to what the plane was traveling.

So basically, the plane is running on a treadmill that is off?

It'll take off...simple. The wheels aren't driven.It doesn't matter if the treadmill is going in reverse the same speed, twice the speed, or even 10 times the speed of the plane...the ONLY thing that will be effected is the wheels will be spinning that much faster, otherwise it's no different than any other runway.

[VooDooXII]

The friction is so minimal your campus probably doesn't have the equipment to measure it. If the "treadmill" matches the speed of the plane (keywords, SPEED OF PLANE...which means it is indeed going somewhere ;) ) then the only difference between a plane taking off on a runway and a plane taking off on a "treadmill" is the speed of the wheels.

Check out my post...two up.

I thought the treadmill would be powered, running in an opposite direction relative to the plane's speed.

[d993s]

No force is being exerted from the wheels onto the treadmill. Please explain to me what force is supposed to turn the treadmill. As the thrust pushes the plane forward, it will do just that - push the plane forward. Eventually, the plane will be fast enough to take off due to the force of lift on the wings. The treadmill has no reason to move - unless you bring in another force of actually putting an external motor on the treadmill and manually making it match the force of the engines - in that case, and that case only, the plane would not move forward, thus no creation of lift for the plane.
Where is the lift coming from????????
Eventually? When? Maybe when a 150+ headwind magically flows towards the plane. :lmfao:

Are you saying that the treadmill has its own separate atmosphere that produces air velocities towards the plane's wings equivalent to the plane taking off on a runway??????????? :lmfao:

The treadmill is stationary. It has a spinning belt. The plane is still not going anywhere!!!! It needs enough air forced under its wings to allow it to lift off.

This is getting hilarious!

[d993s]

Check out my post...two up.

I thought the treadmill would be powered, running in an opposite direction relative to the plane's speed.

That's what they said! And then the plane magically creates lift and takes off!!!
:lmfao:

[On_Her_Face]

it will not take off

[speedminded]

Yes, I've seen it many times. And I've flown many times. That's not the point.
What you (and many others) are not understanding is the simple fact that a plane needs sufficient air velocity (a force or air) under its wings to fly.......unless of course its a jet that is propelled vertically. So then where is that force of air from which the plane depends on lift..... coming from???
A plane is not designed to lift vertically from a stop into the air. The Harrier Jet IS. We're not talking about a Harrier Jet, or a rocket, or a missile.

Are you telling me that if you cut off a birds wings, but if the bird runs fast enough, then it can still fly????? :lmfao:
You don't have to be a physics major to understand this.

My first question in this thread was "under what circumstances"?

That's just it right there; to prove a point, many will sway the variables in their direction to prove a point.

Mythbusters is the biggest waste of time and money. They don't explore variables. Instead, they choose whatever fits their particular reasoning to prove a point. They already know the answer. I remember watching the episode when they added acetone to the fuel in a car and they didn't get any HP or MPG increase. Why? Simply because they left out part of the equation: they did not tune for it. Acetone effectively increases octane, but it must be run at a richer a/f mixture. (I'd like to volunteer on their show to prove how nitrous does NOT add more power to an engine because I will leave leave out the small detail of it requiring extra fuel to produce more power).Where does anyone say the plane doesn't have wings?! It's a normal everyday plane on a normal runway that just happens to be moving backwards...if the plane moves forward then how is lift not automatically created at the wings? You've already said the plane will indeed propel itself forward, that's better than at least 75+% that have said no...they still think it's sitting motionless spinning its wheels.

[d993s]

Wow, you didn't graduate high school, did you?

The plane's thrust only propel the aircraft, they do not lift it off of the ground. Lift must be produced to get the plane off of the ground. The design of the wing great differences in pressure to produce lift. The angle the plane is facing is not the determining factor of the aircraft's ability to take-off. The angle that matters is that of the wings, and that factor can controlled by the flaps.
Here, went and got you a link: http://travel.howstuffworks.com/airplane8.htm

Yes, lift must be produced. Now explain how that lift is produced while the plane is on a treadmill that runs in reverse (in effect to keep the plane stationary as compared to ground speed) and where is that needed pressure, lift, hand of God, etc, coming from?
How tall is this treadmill? The plane will crash right over the edge. Guaranteed. Unless, of course, some of the other varibles are used (for the millionth time: angled or ramped treadmill, angled and more powerful engines, etc.)

[David88vert]

Where is the lift coming from????????
Eventually? When? Maybe when a 150+ headwind magically flows towards the plane. :lmfao:

Are you saying that the treadmill has its own separate atmosphere that produces air velocities towards the plane's wings equivalent to the plane taking off on a runway??????????? :lmfao:

The treadmill is stationary. It has a spinning belt. The plane is still not going anywhere!!!! It needs enough air forced under its wings to allow it to lift off.

This is getting hilarious!

I see where you are coming from. You are assuming that the treadmill has it's own externally powered motor, spinning the treadmill like I stated in the second case. If that is what they use, then you would be correct with the answer of it will not take off, as there would be no lift, due to no forward motion of the plane. However, how are they going to measure the thrust and apply an exactly equal amount of force to the treadmill? You could only do that with weak planes - not jets with thousands of pounds of thrust. In that case, no external force would be able to turn the treadmill fast enough, and the plane would reach a velocity high enough to produce enough lift for take-off.
So the real question is - will they manipulate the variables to add an additional external force into the equation, or let it run as a natural experiment?

[speedminded]

Check out my post...two up.

I thought the treadmill would be powered, running in an opposite direction relative to the plane's speed.It is, I don't know what David is talking about there...the "treadmill" will be going the same speed as the forward motion of the airplane. Think about it, it will be going in reverse the same speed as the plane....the same speed as the plane....the same speed as the plane. Realistic reasoning will tell you the plane is indeed moving if the "treadmill" is matching its speed right?

[speedminded]

I see where you are coming from. You are assuming that the treadmill has it's own externally powered motor, spinning the treadmill like I stated in the second case. If that is what they use, then you would be correct with the answer of it will not take off, as there would be no lift, due to no forward motion of the plane. However, how are they going to measure the thrust and apply an exactly equal amount of force to the treadmill? You could only do that with weak planes - not jets with thousands of pounds of thrust. In that case, no external force would be able to turn the treadmill fast enough, and the plane would reach a velocity high enough to produce enough lift for take-off.
So the real question is - will they manipulate the variables to add an additional external force into the equation, or let it run as a natural experiment?Dude, you just went dumb on me man...don't go to the dark side like that. It is powering itself, the treadmill is going backwards the same speed the plane is going forward...

[On_Her_Face]

so the treadmill is not spinning on its own..

the read mill is spinning <------ this way because the plane is going -----> that way?

if so that is a stupid expeirment.. i thought they would have a treadmil turning one way at X mph and a plane trying to go the opposite way at X mph.. they sound like the same thing but they are not.. ya know

[speedminded]

so the treadmill is not spinning on its own..

the read mill is spinning <------ this way because the plane is going -----> that way?

if so that is a stupid expeirment.. i thought they would have a treadmil turning one way at X mph and a plane trying to go the opposite way at X mph.. they sound like the same thing but they are not.. ya knowFORGET ALL OF David88vert POSTS! The "treadmill" is spinning backwards the same speed the plane is traveling forward, IT IS matching the speed of the plane.

[d993s]

Where does anyone say the plane doesn't have wings?! It's a normal everyday plane on a normal runway that just happens to be moving backwards...if the plane moves forward then how is lift not automatically created at the wings? You've already said the plane will indeed propel itself forward, that's better than at least 75+% that have said no...they still think it's sitting motionless spinning its wheels.

I never said the plane doesn't have wings; but my sarcasm has made the example that wings must be useless on a plane if lift is just magically created on a treadmill. Here's another one: if you break the bezel of your fuel gauge and bend the needle from empty to full, do you then magically have a tank full of gas? Or if you manually turn the speedometer needle to 160mph, are you actually going that fast??? :lmfao:

The plane will be moving forward at several miles per hour (relevant to the ground, on which the treadmill also sits, and in which atmosphere is also shared. It doresn't matter if its at full throttle and its putting 200mph on the treeadmill, since it's not actually going anywhere, and not traveling fast enough to produce lift on its wings, which is required to get it off the ground. Get it?

[On_Her_Face]

FORGET ALL OF David88vert POSTS! The "treadmill" is spinning backwards the same speed the plane is traveling forward, IT IS matching the speed of the plane.
so the treadmill is powered on its own. correct?

[VooDooXII]

I see where you are coming from. You are assuming that the treadmill has it's own externally powered motor, spinning the treadmill like I stated in the second case. If that is what they use, then you would be correct with the answer of it will not take off, as there would be no lift, due to no forward motion of the plane. However, how are they going to measure the thrust and apply an exactly equal amount of force to the treadmill? You could only do that with weak planes - not jets with thousands of pounds of thrust. In that case, no external force would be able to turn the treadmill fast enough, and the plane would reach a velocity high enough to produce enough lift for take-off.
So the real question is - will they manipulate the variables to add an additional external force into the equation, or let it run as a natural experiment?

Are we speaking theoretically or realistically?

Sure, the plane would produce enough thrust to eventually counter the force of a backwards moving treadmill because there's no way a treadmill would be able to spin that fast.

However, if the treadmill is moving backwards to counter the forward movement of the plane...then it won't take off. It'll just stay stationary with the wheels spinning like mad.

If the treadmill isn't powered though, it'll take off because the force that moves the plane forward is not in contact with the surface it is travelling over. If it were a car...it'd be like a dyno, like speedminded mentioned.

Am I understanding this properly?

[speedminded]

~erases or idiocy and irrelevancy~

The plane will be moving forward at several miles per hour (relevant to the ground, on which the treadmill also sits, and in which atmosphere is also shared. It doresn't matter if its at full throttle and its putting 200mph on the treeadmill, since it's not actually going anywhere, and not traveling fast enough to produce lift on its wings, which is required to get it off the ground. Get it?Why is the plane not going anywhere? What is preventing it from traveling forward?!

[d993s]

I see where you are coming from. You are assuming that the treadmill has it's own externally powered motor, spinning the treadmill like I stated in the second case. If that is what they use, then you would be correct with the answer of it will not take off, as there would be no lift, due to no forward motion of the plane. However, how are they going to measure the thrust and apply an exactly equal amount of force to the treadmill?
You could only do that with weak planes - not jets with thousands of pounds of thrust. In that case, no external force would be able to turn the treadmill fast enough, and the plane would reach a velocity high enough to produce enough lift for take-off.
So the real question is - will they manipulate the variables to add an additional external force into the equation, or let it run as a natural experiment?

Yep, they will do whatever they deem necessary to prove a point. The possibilities due to variables are endless here, but again, under the circumstances that were described...........NO, the plane will NOT take off.

[speedminded]

so the treadmill is powered on its own. correct?Yes. It is powered on its own and it is matching the forward speed of the plane.

[On_Her_Face]

no take off

[VooDooXII]

Yes. It is powered on its own and it is matching the forward speed of the plane.

I don't see how it'll be able to take off then.

[speedminded]

Yep, they will do whatever they deem necessary to prove a point. The possibilities due to variables are endless here, but again, under the circumstances that were described...........NO, the plane will NOT take off.There is no variables, sit back and quit thinking about it so damn hard.


Whether the ground is moving is 100% irrelevant, it doesn't matter one bit if the treadmill is going backwards the same speed as the plane or twice the speed of the plane...it will only make the wheels spin faster but the plane will still propel itself forward and it will take off just like any normal runway.

[crf150]

Get a rubber band powered airplane. Turn on a treadmill. Wind up the airplane's propeller. Stick the airplane on the treadmill. release the prop. It will fly untill it hits your flatscreen tv.

[speedminded]

I don't see how it'll be able to take off then.Talk to these people and get them to explain why or why not the plane can take off: http://www.ae.gatech.edu/directory/faculty.html

[VooDooXII]

Get a rubber band powered airplane. Turn on a treadmill. Wind up the airplane's propeller. Stick the airplane on the treadmill. release the prop. It will fly untill it hits your flatscreen tv.

Only because the "thrust" exceeds the countering speed of the treadmill.

If the plane increases its thrust...the treadmill will just move faster right?

The wheels may be spinning along at 500 mph, but the plane won't move forward...and it needs forward motion for air to flow over the wings, in turn creating lift so it can take off.

[On_Her_Face]

:stupid:

[speedminded]

Get a rubber band powered airplane. Turn on a treadmill. Wind up the airplane's propeller. Stick the airplane on the treadmill. release the prop. It will fly untill it hits your flatscreen tv.Been done on youtube dozens of times but there is no way for the speed of the plane and the speed of the treadmill to be matched so it's not scientific enough.

[crf150]

doesnt stationary ground move the same speed with respect to an airplanes forward ground speed.

[speedminded]

Only because the "thrust" exceeds the countering speed of the treadmill.

If the plane increases its thrust...the treadmill will just move faster right?

The wheels may be spinning along at 500 mph, but the plane won't move forward...and it needs forward motion for air to flow over the wings, in turn creating lift so it can take off.If the jet engine or prop is fired up and propelling the plane forward 10mph and the treadmill is going backwards 10mph then the speed of the wheels is 20mph correct?

Give a little bit more throttle and the plane is going forward 25mph and the treadmill is still matching its speed by going backwards 25mph means the wheels are spinning at 50 mph correct?

Push that throttle some more and get that plane up to 100mph and the treadmill will be going backwards 100mph causing the wheels to be spinning at 200mph correct?

Get the idea here? The plane will always be propelling itself forward right? The treadmill has no effect on the motion of the plane except it will only make the free rolling wheels spin faster..

[speedminded]

doesnt stationary ground move the same speed with respect to an airplanes forward ground speed.exactly! and in turn pushes through the air creating more lift as the plane gains speed...

[On_Her_Face]

NO.

[VooDooXII]

If the jet engine or prop is fired up and propelling the plane forward 10mph and the treadmill is going backwards 10mph then the speed of the wheels is 20mph correct?

Give a little bit more throttle and the plane is going forward 25mph and the treadmill is still matching its speed by going backwards 25mph means the wheels are spinning at 50 mph correct?

Push that throttle some more and get that plane up to 100mph and the treadmill will be going backwards 100mph causing the wheels to be spinning at 200mph correct?

Get the idea here? The plane will always be propelling itself forward right? The treadmill has no effect on the motion of the plane except it will only make the free rolling wheels spin faster..

:headslap:

GOTCHA!

:goodjob:

Because, the wheels reduce the friction between the runway and the plane...so if you assume that the wheel bearings are frictionless, it's like the plane has no wheels.

I get it now...wow. I had trouble visualizing it.

[crf150]

now if the airplane was on a long flatbed going that always went faster in reverse with respect to the airplane, not letting the airplane reach its take off AIRSPEED, then no it wouldnt take off. a conveyor belt runway has no affect on the airplanes speed through the air.

[speedminded]

:headslap:

GOTCHA!

:goodjob:I don't believe you...yet. Explain why the plane will indeed take off then I will :tongue:

[crf150]

lol thats messed up.

[Vteckidd]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-EopVDgSPAk

[VooDooXII]

I don't believe you...yet. Explain why the plane will indeed take off then I will :tongue:

Damn you, this isn't my homework! I've got enough of that!

:lmfao: For some reason, I went back and edited my post immediately after I submitted it. I guess I felt like I needed to justify my answer. Read my post again. :D

[crf150]

coulda sworn i just posted that?

[speedminded]

Because, the wheels reduce the friction between the runway and the plane...so if you assume that the wheel bearings are frictionless, it's like the plane has no wheels.

I get it now...wow. I had trouble visualizing it.exactly, the wheels are just an object that allows the plane to move forward easier...now if the plane had ski's or pontoons, it would still travel forward but the plane would need a little bit more throttle to overcome the resistance. The wheels are free spinning making it completely irrelevant that the "treadmill" is going backwards.

[On_Her_Face]

no

[crf150]

hey ls2 kid, i say i get my expired license, go find a big conveyor belt, and me and you go for a ride. it hasn't been all that long since i've flown. we be aight cuz.

[On_Her_Face]

in ur PLAIN?

[crf150]

i fly my plain plane on a vertical plane in the plains.

[speedminded]

i fly my plain plane on a vertical plane in the plains....at night in the rains :tongue:

[crf150]

plain and simple

[Kyle]

I read about one page of this and I can hardly take it. I am not insisting that my logic or my answer is 100% correct, but some of this bs I am reading is absolutely mindless. Make sure your thoughts actually connect before posting.

[speedminded]

I read about one page of this and I can hardly take it. I am not insisting that my logic or my answer is 100% correct, but some of this bs I am reading is absolutely mindless. Make sure your thoughts actually connect before posting.lolol, touche

[RUENVUS]

hey ls2 kid, i say i get my expired license, go find a big conveyor belt, and me and you go for a ride. it hasn't been all that long since i've flown. we be aight cuz.

God I hope you're kidding.............

[On_Her_Face]

no it will not take off. ever. in a plane or in some peoples cases a PLAIN

[speedminded]

no it will not take off. ever. in a plane or in some peoples cases a PLAINCan you provide us with any useful knowledge or even a slight debate why it won't besides the completely useless replies you've contributed?

[On_Her_Face]

Can you provide us with any useful knowledge or even a slight debate why it won't besides the completely useless replies you've contributed?

yes i have done that on previous pages, now im just saying no no no, lol

[On_Her_Face]

but if u would like for my response, lets get a few things straight, the treadmill is powered on its own, correct?

[VooDooXII]

but if u would like for my response, lets get a few things straight, the treadmill is powered on its own, correct?

Billy bad-ass...check out my posts.

[speedminded]

but if u would like for my response, lets get a few things straight, the treadmill is powered on its own, correct?That is correct plus it magically detects the speed of the plane so it can operate backwards the exact same speed the plane is traveling forward.

[On_Her_Face]

ok, so the plane cannot go faster than the treadmill?

[speedminded]

Billy bad-ass...check out my posts.it's ok, some learn from others mistakes while others gotta figure it out on their own...i have no life tonight and probably every night leading up to December 12th, lol. I'll continue to go through it until the entire world understands & believes, it's not like it's a religion...this is based on logic, common sense, and basic physics.

[On_Her_Face]

answer my question please. :)

[speedminded]

ok, so the plane cannot go faster than the treadmill?Correct, the treadmill will always be operating the exact same speed as the plane.

[On_Her_Face]

Correct, the treadmill will always be operating the exact same speed as the plane.

ok so lets say the plane is doing 100 mph, but the tread mill is doing 100 mph the other way and the plane is doing 200 mph all together, right?

[VooDooXII]

ok so lets say the plane is doing 100 mph, but the tread mill is doing 100 mph the other way and the plane is doing 200 mph all together, right?

The wheels are moving at 200 mph. Read the exchange between speedminded and me.

[speedminded]

ok so lets say the plane is doing 100 mph, but the tread mill is doing 100 mph the other way and the plane is doing 200 mph all together, right?negative, if the plane is propelling itself forward 100mph and the treadmill is operating against it at 100mph then the wheels and only the wheels will be rotating at 200mph...the plane will still be continuing upon it's normal path forward at 100mph.

[d993s]

but if u would like for my response, lets get a few things straight, the treadmill is powered on its own, correct?

The treadmill is 1/2 mile long and powered on its own, rolls backwards at just 2mph, and so the plane must use 95% of its throttle instead of 90%.
Under those circumstances, yes, it will take off since it has to use just a little more power to achieve sufficient air to ground speed to provide the lift necessary for ascent.

I see the argument now focuses solely on whether the plane will move forward. Well of course it will move forward. But if the treadmill spins (lets say) at 150mph which would be the normal takeoff speed on a runway, then the plane would have to go 300mph (150 actual mph, but 300mph faster than the treadmill) before it can take off.

[On_Her_Face]

negative, if the plane is propelling itself forward 100mph and the treadmill is operating against it at 100mph then the wheels and only the wheels will be rotating at 200mph...the plane will still be continue upon it's normal path forward at 100mph.

yes at the wheels thats what i meant.. but as it continues to go faster and faster the treadmill does to.. so its not going anywhere, and no lift.. no matter how much thrust the treadmill matches the mph and it will not be moving in a forward direction, there for no wind(aka no lift)

i might be wrong, and you might be wrong as well but i stand beside my statement till actually proven otherwise :goodjob:

[81911SC]

LS2 PM me

[speedminded]

yes at the wheels thats what i meant.. but as it continues to go faster and faster the treadmill does to.. so its not going anywhere, and no lift.. no matter how much thrust the treadmill matches the mph and it will not be moving in a forward direction, there for no wind(aka no lift)

i might be wrong, and you might be wrong as well but i stand beside my statement till actually proven otherwise :goodjob:hey mang, i'm gonna be a blunt as possible here...if the plane is traveling at 100mph do you think it's sitting still?

[On_Her_Face]

hey mang, i'm gonna be a blunt as possible here...if the plane is traveling at 100mph do you think it's sitting still?
on a treadmill or on runway?

[speedminded]

on a treadmill or on runway?It's a treadmill the size of a runway...it's a runway that moves backwards...whatever you wanna call it.

[On_Her_Face]

yes i do, moving in place

[VooDooXII]

yes i do, moving in place

Read this... (http://www.importatlanta.com/forums/showpost.php?p=36189818&postcount=210)

[speedminded]

yes i do, moving in place*sigh* How do you suppose an airplane is to move in place? Like a paper airplane tied to the front of a fan?

Will it help if i say the planes air speed is going 100mph while the treadmill is operating against it at 100mph? The speed of the plane is relative to the ground beneath it, not the treadmill...if the plane is moving 100mph then it is MOVING at a rate of 100 miles per hour, it is actually progressing forward...if there were trees and buildings next to the runway then they would be "flying" passed at 100mph...

[On_Her_Face]

i said it was moving :tongue1:

[d993s]

yes at the wheels thats what i meant.. but as it continues to go faster and faster the treadmill does to.. so its not going anywhere, and no lift.. no matter how much thrust the treadmill matches the mph and it will not be moving in a forward direction, there for no wind(aka no lift)

i might be wrong, and you might be wrong as well but i stand beside my statement till actually proven otherwise :goodjob:

I guess some people are baffled by how they run 20 miles on a treadmill, but after they're done..........they're still there, on the treadmill INSTEAD of in another town.........they haven't gone anywhere. OMGZERS! THE CONFUSION!
What a letdown! Like a broken time machine!

I wonder when airports will sell off their runways and invest in treadmills!!!!!

:lmfao: