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EvasiveEF9
09-09-2007, 10:12 PM
Well, I think enough of us are into getting our cars to stick to the road (JFRO, StraightSix...) that I think it's time we start talking suspension. How you've got it set up, and how you're rollin' it...

After this morning's run, I'm back into wanting to hug corners tighter. So let's talk it out.

I went up this morning, and this is how I was set up...

KYB AGX 4ways
-Front @ 4
-Rear @ 3

Skunk2 pro coils
-Front was about 2/3 to 3/4 spun down with both perches
-Rear was slammed, but still had both perches

Strut/Sway:
-Front = None
-Rear = None

Bushings
-Most all Urethane, all around

Brakes
-Front = 10.3" Integra, all stock/OEM
-Rear = Rear disc from Integra, all stock/OEM

Pads
-Front = No name in good condition
-Rear = No name with VERY VERY worn down pads

Master Cyl/Booster
-Integra LS stock 15/16" mc and booster

Fluid
-Dot 4

Wheels
-15' Konig Helium

Tires
-205 Proxes 4's; all @ 30-32lbs pressure

Other mods:
No other chassis braces at this time
Revo2 front camber kit

Caster:
Left is back by -1.0degree
Right is back by -1.6degrees

Camber:
Left @ -.4degree
Right @ -1.2degree (will soon be adjusted)

Toe: In spec
Left @ .05
Right @ .09

Total Toe @ .13degree

REAR:

Camber:
Left @ -1.9
Right @ -2.1 (out of spec: Cannot adjust)

Toe:
Left @ .06
Right @ .02 (out of spec: Cannot adjust) (only slightly out of spec)

Review:
I really enjoyed the setup. Now that my MC is back to being functional, my brakes grabbed VERY well. They started to get hot at one point from my over-driving the car. Pedal felt harder than normal, but was still responsive with more pressure. Gave me ample warning. Tires grabbed VERY well @ 30lbs of pressure, but I PROBABLY could use and softer compound for more aggressive/faster driving OR I could have probably dropped to 26-28 to be stickier in turns, but probably would have allowed the car to sway a little mor making it less responsive. 28lbs probably would have been about optimal. I'll try it next time. As for the struts, the rear I enjoy having softer to prevent the rear end from coming loose. Perhaps this can be adjusted with a rear sway bar? Either way. Right now I need to adjust the front right camber, and figure out what I'm gonna do about the back right wheel. It's not far out of spec, AT ALL...but still...I prefer perfection. As for the caster...I see a new toy coming soon. I hung well with the two corvettes and two evo's I went with...but I just need a little more juice to hang with them in the straights a little closer...

Either way, we topped out up there at 115mph, and avg was probably 80 (give or take). I ran harder than I've ever run before, and I was impressed. The front end didn't seem to get front-heavy and start to plow, nor did the rear end get loose (however, I wonder what the affect will be when I put pads back in the rear).

Anyways...anyone got advice, input, or wanna put up there suggestions or setups?

Thought this could be fun...seeing as the EF IS pretty much the PREMIER car to run this stuff with...

Oh...on a side note. I got my car aligned saturday. Some of the specs ARE still out (which will help if I could fix it) and some of them CAN'T be adjusted...due to the fucker that hit and twisted my car chassis. This is sufficient proof that my chassis IS twisted...

Papa_Smurf
09-09-2007, 10:22 PM
Tokico Hp non adjustable

Neuspeed Sport Springs
-2.0F
-1.8R

Strut/Sway
-Neuspeed front strut bar

Bushings
-Stock

Wheels
-14 inch HX

Tires
-Kuhmo ???'s




everything els is stock. at the moment i have not installed my struts (will be here tuesday) so i will have an update then. I will say that before the install of the new struts, i'm not happy w/ the neuspeed sport springs (too soft), and i wish i had more breaking power (Ex: DA brakes) but a lack of funds keeps me from upgrading :cry:

bigdare23
09-09-2007, 10:28 PM
Tokico Hp non adjustable

Neuspeed Sport Springs
-2.0F
-1.8R

Strut/Sway
-Neuspeed front strut bar

Bushings
-Stock

Wheels
-14 inch HX

Tires
-Kuhmo ???'s




everything els is stock. at the moment i have not installed my struts (will be here tuesday) so i will have an update then. I will say that before the install of the new struts, i'm not happy w/ the neuspeed sport springs (too soft), and i wish i had more breaking power (Ex: DA brakes) but a lack of funds keeps me from upgrading :cry:


What you expect? It is a street spring

I'm rocking Neuspeed sport springs and KYB GR2s struts. By no means, this isnt a race setup. This is an aggressive street setup thats better than stock :goodjob:

Papa_Smurf
09-09-2007, 10:47 PM
What you expect? It is a street spring

I'm rocking Neuspeed sport springs and KYB GR2s struts. By no means, this isnt a race setup. This is an aggressive street setup thats better than stock :goodjob:

oh shit, i didn't know you were rockin the neuspeed sport springs too darryl. how do you like them? i've only rode on them on stock struts that were going bad, so i'm hoping these Tokico HP's will make the suspension feel alot better.

Cato ED-6
09-09-2007, 10:48 PM
Awesome, more info please. Next thing I'm upgrading is the suspension.

Only thing I got are top strut bars, front and back.
Rear DA brake swap, which are currently barely grabbing...
Rotex Gold Kevlar Pads.
Riding on VXs with Kuhmos.

bigdare23
09-09-2007, 10:50 PM
oh shit, i didn't know you were rockin the neuspeed sport springs too darryl. how do you like them? i've only rode on them on stock struts that were going bad, so i'm hoping these Tokico HP's will make the suspension feel alot better.


I agree they are soft, but I wanted a spring to improve ride quality. Most "handling gurus" wouldnt like them.

Papa_Smurf
09-09-2007, 10:51 PM
I agree they are soft, but I wanted a spring to improve ride quality. Most "handling gurus" wouldnt like them.

i'm no "handling guru" by any means, lol. i think i'll like the way the car feels with the tokico's

EvasiveEF9
09-10-2007, 07:25 AM
Awesome, more info please. Next thing I'm upgrading is the suspension.

Only thing I got are top strut bars, front and back.
Rear DA brake swap, which are currently barely grabbing...
Rotex Gold Kevlar Pads.
Riding on VXs with Kuhmos.
I wanna get your brakes right this week. When you wanna do 'em?

StraightSix
09-10-2007, 11:22 AM
My laignment settings are currently stock. The suspension is also currently stock. I don't have the measurements with me, so I can't post them.

Brakes:
Original Master Cyl., should be 13/16ths.
Front STD with Bendix IQ pads.
Rear stock Integra disks with Wearever golds.
Fluid = ATE Super Blue.

** The ATE fluid isn't all that great. At Road Atlanta the pedal was still fading, during my sessions. I only ran two sessions on Sunday. My Dad drove the car all weekend, however.

I have a Si front sway and no rear sway.

Tires are 195/50/15 Toyo Proxes 4s. I usually set the front pressures to 30-35psi and the rear to 35-40 psi.

Ben - To get your rear camber more positive, you can add washers behind the pivot link that is bolted to the body. You have to also use slightly longer bolts to maintain the correct amount of thread engagement.

Cato ED-6
09-10-2007, 11:35 AM
I wanna get your brakes right this week. When you wanna do 'em?

Most likely:
Friday, after you get off work.
and/or
Saturday and Sunday, and miss some Nopi.

Anytime is fine with me. Just say when.

slow_hatch
09-10-2007, 06:17 PM
We'll my setup is awesome :lmfao:

Coilovers: Ebay Specials(Arospeed i think, they were free)
Settings: Front- 2/3 down
Rear- All the way down, one twist perch removed

Struts: Stock

Swaybar: Front- DX bar
Rear- None

Bushings: Stock

Brakes: Integra Disk Front & Rear
Pads: Stock
Disk: Stock
M/C: Remanufactered stock
Fluid: DoT 4
Prop. Valve: Integra

Wheels: 14" O.Z.

Tires: Suminto(?) $35 Tirerack.com :D

All alignment was done before the coilovers were installed so ever thing is zeroed out, other than the camber :crazy:

This is by far the ultimate setup. I've beaten a few motorcycles running this setup(ok ok, granted the riders sucked) :bump:

jfrolang
09-10-2007, 09:32 PM
I guarantee your toe is off if you haven't had an alignment since lowering it.

ash7
09-10-2007, 10:27 PM
Coilovers: GC w/ OTS rates 350f 300r (selling soon) i prefer 425f 400r rates from GC
Struts: Tokico Blues (horrible strut for performance, rod stroke is far too shallow) I prefer SPSS3 modified Koni Sports.

Swaybar:
Front- HF
Rear- SI

Bushings: Energy Suspension kit fully installed (graphite injected), trailing arms have standard red Polyurethane bushings from ES

Brakes: stock SI front/rear
Pads: OEM
Disc: OEM
M/C: DC2
Brake Booster: DC2
Fluid: Motul RBF600
Prop. Valve: 40/40

Wheels: 15x8 Sportmax typeII

Tires: Dunlop Direzza 195/50

This setup will be put through Hades in a few weeks at the Tail. I'll report back with my results.

-jonathan

Papa_Smurf
09-10-2007, 10:36 PM
jonathon, are those the Tokico HP's?

i have a set comming in tomorrow.

ash7
09-10-2007, 11:51 PM
HPs are the white adjustables i believe.

do not slam your car with these installed bro. The top main seal will split in half within 400 miles. I'll put money on it. :)

Tokico has a bad habit of leaving the body length of the strut about 1" too short to accept the rod fully into the cylinder, this creates all kinds of un needed stress on the internals of the damper (you'll hear a knocking, that's the damper bottoming out).

-jonathan

jfrolang
09-10-2007, 11:52 PM
blues are HPs. Tokico Illuminas are the white adjustable ones.

Papa_Smurf
09-10-2007, 11:54 PM
HPs are the white adjustables i believe.

do not slam your car with these installed bro. The top main seal will split in half within 400 miles. I'll put money on it. :)

Tokico has a bad habit of leaving the body length of the strut about 1" too short to accept the rod fully into the cylinder, this creates all kinds of un needed stress on the internals of the damper (you'll hear a knocking, that's the damper bottoming out).

-jonathan

yea, like jeff said the blues are the HP's, allumina's are the adj's.

My car isn't slammed, it's 2.0 front and 1.8 rear on relativly soft springs.

Jeff said he rode on his tokico's for 5 years and never had a problem. i believe we have around the same drop :thinking:. I mean, you can tell how low my car is from my sig, i hope that drop wolnt be too much of a problem...

jfrolang
09-10-2007, 11:55 PM
5 years of 2.5" drop on tokico blues. Not the greatest shocks in the world but they haven't fallen apart on me.

ash7
09-10-2007, 11:58 PM
lol, your'e right.

it's late, forgive me. :)

either way, Tokico struts are good OEM replacements IMO... they're not a performance damper, and can't take much abuse.

-jonathan

Papa_Smurf
09-11-2007, 12:17 AM
5 years of 2.5" drop on tokico blues. Not the greatest shocks in the world but they haven't fallen apart on me.

this is good news. i have a feeling they'll do just fine for me :D

slow_hatch
09-11-2007, 03:03 AM
I guarantee your toe is off if you haven't had an alignment since lowering it.

LOL, i'm sure its all off.

Black R
09-11-2007, 12:04 PM
wait, what are we supposed to be doing? talking about our suspension setup and how good it is?


ok here goes:

apexi n1 99spec coilovers with 11k front and 16k rear springs
integra big brakes all around along with the master cylinder
itr rear lca's and front shock forks
suspension techniques rear swaybar set on full soft
neuspeed front upper strut tower bar
ebay upper rear strut tower bar
jimfab traction bars with a custom front subframe brace

i run factory settings for toe and about 2.5deg of negative camber

the car is about 4.5" from the jacking points to the ground\

i have a few different sets of wheels, but right now I've got some 15x8 te37's and 225/45/15 hoosiers.

impressions:

I'm still sorting it out, but it's pretty neutral with a bit of understeer until you lift in a corner. I can remedy that by increasing the stiffness of the rear swaybar, but I'm not happy with the way the endlinks mount and the angle so I think I'm going to have some machined that'll fit my needs.

I'll update as I do some more testing. :)

jfrolang
09-11-2007, 05:05 PM
11k/16k spring rates? You drive this car on the street?

EvasiveEF9
09-14-2007, 07:21 PM
Sorry to have been gone so long, everyone...


Ben - To get your rear camber more positive, you can add washers behind the pivot link that is bolted to the body. You have to also use slightly longer bolts to maintain the correct amount of thread engagement.
You're not diggin' the ATE Blue? That stuff's supposed to be GOOD. As for my camber, I'm not too concerned. When I get the new shell, THEN I'll shoot for perfection. Right now, it's just on standby...

I guarantee your toe is off if you haven't had an alignment since lowering it.
I second this FACT. Not opinion...FACT.



Fluid: Motul RBF600
Prop. Valve: 40/40

Wheels: 15x8 Sportmax typeII

-jonathan
How's that fluid work for ya? 4040 on stock...you've gotta have rear discs, I'd hope...? Those wheels...the width is gonna help ya, but the weight of sportmax wheels is gonna kill ya. When you look at new wheels, consider a slightly skinnier and lighter wheel. :goodjob:

HPs are the white adjustables i believe.

do not slam your car with these installed bro. The top main seal will split in half within 400 miles. I'll put money on it. :)

Tokico has a bad habit of leaving the body length of the strut about 1" too short to accept the rod fully into the cylinder, this creates all kinds of un needed stress on the internals of the damper (you'll hear a knocking, that's the damper bottoming out).

-jonathan
Good to know. Repped. Good to know...

wait, what are we supposed to be doing? talking about our suspension setup and how good it is?

ok here goes:

apexi n1 99spec coilovers with 11k front and 16k rear springs
integra big brakes all around along with the master cylinder
itr rear lca's and front shock forks
suspension techniques rear swaybar set on full soft
neuspeed front upper strut tower bar
ebay upper rear strut tower bar
jimfab traction bars with a custom front subframe brace

i run factory settings for toe and about 2.5deg of negative camber

the car is about 4.5" from the jacking points to the ground\

i have a few different sets of wheels, but right now I've got some 15x8 te37's and 225/45/15 hoosiers.

impressions:

I'm still sorting it out, but it's pretty neutral with a bit of understeer until you lift in a corner. I can remedy that by increasing the stiffness of the rear swaybar, but I'm not happy with the way the endlinks mount and the angle so I think I'm going to have some machined that'll fit my needs.

I'll update as I do some more testing. :)
You little friggin' baller...
What's the difference in the ITR front forks, out of curiosity? Also, let us know how you play with the rear sway. I'm looking to get one, and I'm interested to see which is my best purchase...

11k/16k spring rates? You drive this car on the street?
...he never said it's his daily. :goodjob: That's all I'm sayin'. But I'll warn ya...when you think you know him, you're wrong. :bannana:

jfrolang
09-14-2007, 07:43 PM
a 4040 prop valve requires more than just rear discs for proper operation, you need the larger Integra calipers up front as well. Stock front brakes with rear discs, you want a CRX Si prop valve, I think it's 2540.

StraightSix
09-14-2007, 07:54 PM
The ATE super Blue *is* supposed to be good, which is why I bought it. I haven't been all that impressed with it. I'll be switching to Motul very soon.

Cato ED-6
09-14-2007, 08:20 PM
a 4040 prop valve requires more than just rear discs for proper operation, you need the larger Integra calipers up front as well. Stock front brakes with rear discs, you want a CRX Si prop valve, I think it's 2540.

I think you just solved my problem with my brakes. Running a 4040 with stock front and DA discs in the back. I have barely any pressure in the back.

Could I run a stock 91 hatch dx prop. valve?
Or am I going to have to get a crx si valve?

jfrolang
09-14-2007, 08:21 PM
It needs to be a 90-91 CRX Si valve. You have 9.5" front brakes with EF/DA rear discs. Only the CRX Si with rear discs had that combination.

It's probably a pain to source one though, so the easier solution is DA front brakes.

Cato ED-6
09-14-2007, 08:29 PM
Well I got SiR lines from autozone, so I'm hoping they have the valve.
Going to try all the stores tommorow and might run to a junkyard.

Thanks for the info, I'd rep you if I could.

EvasiveEF9
09-14-2007, 08:37 PM
a 4040 prop valve requires more than just rear discs for proper operation, you need the larger Integra calipers up front as well. Stock front brakes with rear discs, you want a CRX Si prop valve, I think it's 2540.
Bingo...that's what I needed...

The ATE super Blue *is* supposed to be good, which is why I bought it. I haven't been all that impressed with it. I'll be switching to Motul very soon.
Let me know how that goes.

I think you just solved my problem with my brakes. Running a 4040 with stock front and DA discs in the back. I have barely any pressure in the back.

Could I run a stock 91 hatch dx prop. valve?
Or am I going to have to get a crx si valve?
Bingo. We went 4040 cuz we thought you were doing DA front, remember?
No.
Yes.

It needs to be a 90-91 CRX Si valve. You have 9.5" front brakes with EF/DA rear discs. Only the CRX Si with rear discs had that combination.

It's probably a pain to source one though, so the easier solution is DA front brakes.
Option B is to run the 35/40 prop. Can't remembe what it's off of, though. I wanna say 92-95 civic? Check my accuracy... Available at Napa, I'm sure...

Well I got SiR lines from autozone, so I'm hoping they have the valve.
Going to try all the stores tommorow and might run to a junkyard.

Thanks for the info, I'd rep you if I could.
While at the salvage, look for 3540. I swear it'll be what you want. Fuck autozone for the prop. Use napa. Smarter people. Plus, I can pull you a discount through the shop I work at. Hell, your shop probably has an account with 'em, too.

Cato ED-6
09-14-2007, 09:00 PM
While at the salvage, look for 3540. I swear it'll be what you want. Fuck autozone for the prop. Use napa. Smarter people. Plus, I can pull you a discount through the shop I work at. Hell, your shop probably has an account with 'em, too.
Well I don't care where its from, the part wont be different. A 3540 prop valve off a 90-91 crx si w/ rear discs.

I'll most likely get a discount at where ever I go, but its my dad's shop...I just help. LOL

And ya I remember everything, was a pain in the ass, and I'm still driving it with no back brakes...hard to forget when I need about 2x the braking distance. LOL

Black R
09-18-2007, 12:02 PM
11k/16k spring rates? You drive this car on the street?


I daily drove it for 3 years like that and wifey even daily drove it for like a year while I was rebuilding the motor in her itr. :)

The dampers are adjustable, so I just turn them to full soft for street duty - it wasn't too bad driving to FL and back. Now the roads in TN and Ohio suck imho! I drove up there a couple months ago and hated the ride in my EF. That wasn't the car's fault though - those people need to pave some shit! LOL

I don't daily drive my EF much anymore - mainly because I bought this 240 and it's fun to rwd it up. :)

ash7
09-18-2007, 12:13 PM
I think you just solved my problem with my brakes. Running a 4040 with stock front and DA discs in the back. I have barely any pressure in the back.

Could I run a stock 91 hatch dx prop. valve?
Or am I going to have to get a crx si valve?

Are you running a stock booster and master cylinder?

How are you measuring the pressure getting to your back brakes?

-jonathan

Cato ED-6
09-18-2007, 02:08 PM
Ya stock booster and MC.

We had the car's ass jacked up and spun the rear wheels, hit the brake and the rear wheels slowly stopped, instead of suddenly stopping due to being in the air.
We did the same with the front ones and they stop like they should.

And I should mention that the E-brake will stop the back, if that helps anyone. Its been my savior a couple of times now, it's living up to its name.

ash7
09-18-2007, 05:18 PM
Ya stock booster and MC.

We had the car's ass jacked up and spun the rear wheels, hit the brake and the rear wheels slowly stopped, instead of suddenly stopping due to being in the air.
We did the same with the front ones and they stop like they should.

And I should mention that the E-brake will stop the back, if that helps anyone. Its been my savior a couple of times now, it's living up to its name.

is the engine running when you're testing the rear brakes? The valve will only allow pressure to the rear brakes when you're applying extreme pressure.

EVASIVE - motul rbf600 is IMO the best brake fluid on the market. Your car would have to practicly be on fire for it to start boiling. motul ftw

You won't find it anywhere but in sport bike shops though, it's around 12$ a pint.

-jonathan

Cato ED-6
09-18-2007, 06:03 PM
I can't remember if we had the engine running or not. Most likely we didn't.
But what would the engine have to do about the brakes?

And yes, I was slamming on the brakes and still only had slight pressure in the rear.

jfrolang
09-18-2007, 07:21 PM
If the engine's running it will be providing vacuum to the booster.

Konstantin
09-19-2007, 12:04 AM
Can anyone reccomend a good set of struts? I'm looking for something very aggresive. I do not mind ride comfort loss at all.
I've heard and seen very good things from Tokico Illuminas. Thats kinda pricey, but you DO get what you pay for...I'm thinking before my engine build I'll be doing suspension.
Also, I was going to do a package deal withthe Illuminas and TOkicos 1.5" lowering springs. FOr 1.5" drop, what would you guys suggest?

ash7
09-19-2007, 12:07 AM
I can't remember if we had the engine running or not. Most likely we didn't.
But what would the engine have to do about the brakes?

And yes, I was slamming on the brakes and still only had slight pressure in the rear.

Time for professor CRXseven to teach a lesson on how a prop valve works...

[cracks knuckles and gets to typing]

Proportioning valves were designed to help balance braking pressure on cars with front disk/rear drum brakes. Inertia and momentum cause weight to shift to the front of a vehicle when braking, in turn causing the rear axle to lift from the road lowering the traction between tires and road.

Disk brakes require higher hydraulic pressure than drums do because drums use a mechanical servo action to increase force applied to the brakes.

When the brakes are first applied under light/normal braking, the valve does NOTHING. Fluid enters the valve at the smaller piston area and passes straight through. Only when you apply significant braking force, it achieves pressure at the outlet side of the valve exerting greater backpressure than inlet pressure moving the piston back towards the inlet side against spring pressure, thus closing the center valve stem and blocking pressure to the outlet. This pressure is called the split point. As pressure increases from the master cylinder, inlet pressure at the proportioning valve overcomes the pressure at the large end of the piston and reopens the valve. Brake fluid then flows through the center of the valve, pressure rises at the outlet, and it closes again. THIS OCCURS SEVERAL TIMES PER SECOND.

It allows pressure to increase to the rear brakes, but at a lower rate than pressure to the front.

Proportioning valves are rated in a ratio like this: after the split point, pressure to the rear brakes will rise proportionally to the front brakes. If you were to get a valve rated at 100/200 (0.50) for every two PSI of hydraulic pressure at the front you will achieve 1 at the rear.

---you may stop taking notes now

check your valve, make sure it's the correct one for your application (i.e. disc or drum)

-jonathan

Papa_Smurf
09-19-2007, 12:11 AM
jonathan, you just google "prop valve" or something to make urself look smart?

lolol

ash7
09-19-2007, 12:11 AM
Can anyone reccomend a good set of struts? I'm looking for something very aggresive. I do not mind ride comfort loss at all.
I've heard and seen very good things from Tokico Illuminas. Thats kinda pricey, but you DO get what you pay for...I'm thinking before my engine build I'll be doing suspension.
Also, I was going to do a package deal withthe Illuminas and TOkicos 1.5" lowering springs. FOr 1.5" drop, what would you guys suggest?

If you're only going to see a 1.5" drop you'll be fine with tokico.

however, you want something VERY agressive, be prepared to write some checks for larger amounts. Koni Sports are a much more agressive damper, and can be had for as cheap as 460 brand new shipped off of HT. OR... if you're lucky enough to find a set that's blown, you can have them rebuilt, or do it yourself for MUCH cheaper.

I promise you'll like the konis better than the illuminas.
-jonathan

ash7
09-19-2007, 12:18 AM
jonathan, you just google "prop valve" or something to make urself look smart?

lolol

:) negative maine. I just remember a lot of stuff from when i was researching about rear disc conversions on HT. lol

I had that chart in my pics on my comp. Just thought i'd toss it in for a visual for the difference in brake pressures. :goodjob:

-jonathan

Cato ED-6
09-19-2007, 12:22 AM
Thank you for the info. So right now I have a 4040 valve.
Are you saying that under braking it should give equal pressure to front and rear?

And by switching to a 3540, will that fix the problem?
I'm running stock front disc brakes, and DA back discs.

And real quick, the stock valve for a 91 hatch dx is a 3040 right?

ash7
09-19-2007, 12:47 AM
Thank you for the info. So right now I have a 4040 valve.
Are you saying that under braking it should give equal pressure to front and rear?

And by switching to a 3540, will that fix the problem?
I'm running stock front disc brakes, and DA back discs.

And real quick, the stock valve for a 91 hatch dx is a 3040 right?

your 4040 valve is the correct one to have for your setup man. And you are correct in saying it would apply equal pressure to both the front and rear discs. However, the rear engage later in the braking process, thus stabilizing the car.

I'm not very familiar with EFs yet, i've only had mine a month... but i believe the stock prop valve is a 2040 for drum brakes.

-jonathan

jfrolang
09-19-2007, 01:04 AM
4040 is not the right prop valve to use with stock front calipers...

And Konstantin, Tokico Illuminas will do you fine. Koni Sports if you're feeling baller.

Cato ED-6
09-19-2007, 01:08 AM
I've got a 3540 valve on the way. I'll see if that does better, but right now the brakes are really lacking.



StraightSix: What Valve are you running?
I read all the posts again and realized you have stock fronts and swapped backs. So I just have to ask.

ash7
09-19-2007, 01:14 AM
4040 is not the right prop valve to use with stock front calipers...


please explain

I am using a 4040 valve, sk7 booster, and st7 mc on my stock Si brakes.

How is this not the best setup? Front piston caliper size remained at 53mm across the board until 1993. The only difference is the brake rotor itself which is 9.5" for a civic DX, and 10.25 for a DA.

This prop valve setup will cause his brakes to engage harder, and at a faster rate.
-jonathan

Cato ED-6
09-19-2007, 01:40 AM
Well I can't explain why its wrong, but I know something is.

I had a master mechanic(my father) check all the parts and lines and he said nothing was wrong, broken, or out of place. He then took it for a test drive and almost crashed because he thought the brakes were going to grab. He luckily grabbed the E-brake and stopped in time.
He's still kinda mad at me. LOL

I get on here and read that you guys say the valve needs to be swapped.
Which I'm doing, I should have it in less than 5 days. I'll know better then.

ash7
09-19-2007, 01:45 AM
Well I can't explain why its wrong, but I know something is.

I had a master mechanic(my father) check all the parts and lines and he said nothing was wrong, broken, or out of place. He then took it for a test drive and almost crashed because he thought the brakes were going to grab. He luckily grabbed the E-brake and stopped in time.
He's still kinda mad at me. LOL

I get on here and read that you guys say the valve needs to be swapped.
Which I'm doing, I should have it in less than 5 days. I'll know better then.


Even your stock valve should proportion the brakes enough to stop man.

This might sound like a really dumb question, but did you make sure to bleed your brakes correctly? How is the condition of the fluid?

If your car isn't stopping at all (which is what it sounds like), then you may be overlooking something really simple. :D

just tryin to help you bro
-jonathan

Cato ED-6
09-19-2007, 02:01 AM
Theres more than enough pressure to stop the car, its just not good enough for me to trust them like I did(before swap).

And yes I did bleed them right. I even had them re-bleed by my dad just to be sure. And nothing changed. The fluid is DOT 3, brand new.

I'm willing to bet its the valve.

And ya I know you are, if I sound angry its just due to the fact I'm having this problem and I apologize.:ninja:

Cato ED-6
09-19-2007, 02:36 AM
Just some quick thoughts, no disrespect intended. I'm most likely going to sound like an idiot.

Why are you running a 4040 prop on stock crx brakes?
I thought the CRX si w/ rear discs came with a 3540 valve.

and

If your MC and booster are changed then that might be why your not having this same problem. They might just be pushing harder then stock ones.

I mean correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still learning.

ash7
09-19-2007, 11:35 AM
Just some quick thoughts, no disrespect intended. I'm most likely going to sound like an idiot.

Why are you running a 4040 prop on stock crx brakes?
I thought the CRX si w/ rear discs came with a 3540 valve.

and

If your MC and booster are changed then that might be why your not having this same problem. They might just be pushing harder then stock ones.

I mean correct me if I'm wrong, I'm still learning.

the 90-91 crxSI came with a 2040 valve. The 3540 belongs to the 90-91 Civic EX.

I decided to one-up and get the 4040 off of a 92 DA rs (heavier, requiring more stabilizing braking power from the back calipers).

-jonathan

StraightSix
09-19-2007, 12:49 PM
Cato,

To answer your question, I am using the 4040 prop valve and I don't seem to be having any problems. In fact, imediately after the rear disk swap, the car was driven at Road Atlanta by my Dad in all the HPDE1 sessions and by me for two DE2 sessions.

I had a devil of a time getting all the air out of the system, though. I went through nearly a quart of brake fluid trying to get all the air out. When I did the rear disk swap, I also did the prop valve and stainless steel lines. I think I bled the system like six times before it finally felt right.

I would double check all the hard line fittings, and bleed the system again until you're sure there's no air in the lines. It sounds like that's it is.

Cato ED-6
09-19-2007, 01:16 PM
Thanks man. I'll go back and do a double check on all the lines.

I have bleed the brakes 3-4 times now, and I'm almost positive there is no air in it.
We went through like 5 bottles of DOT 3.
From what I can see there are no leaks.

But I'll redo everything, re-bleed the brakes, and see if it doesn't get any better. And if it doesn't I'll swap the valve and see what it does.

Thanks again for the info.:goodjob:

ash7
09-19-2007, 02:25 PM
Cato,


I had a devil of a time getting all the air out of the system, though. I went through nearly a quart of brake fluid trying to get all the air out. When I did the rear disk swap, I also did the prop valve and stainless steel lines. I think I bled the system like six times before it finally felt right.


:D i also had this problem
-jonathan

ash7
09-19-2007, 02:32 PM
StraightSix, are you going to be running weekend after next at the Roebling event?

-jonathan

StraightSix
09-19-2007, 04:01 PM
Yes, I am. I'll be in the tower taking care of timing stuff and on track in DE2. You going to be there?

EvasiveEF9
09-19-2007, 08:35 PM
Shit...Cato...why didn't I think of this?

When we did the swap, ALL of the fluid drained out of the system. The ENTIRE system needs to be re-bled...starting with the MC. It needs to be bench bled. Then make our way down the entire setup.

Why the hell didn't I think of that before?

jfrolang
09-19-2007, 08:57 PM
I can confirm that 90-91 calipers have larger pistons than 88 calipers... but I can't confirm that they're the same size as DA. The rear calipers are the same DA vs. EF, so it doesn't make sense to me that a CRX Si would ship with a 2040 valve and and a DA would come with a 4040. Why would Honda make two parts if the brake systems are the same?

ash7
09-19-2007, 08:58 PM
Shit...Cato...why didn't I think of this?

When we did the swap, ALL of the fluid drained out of the system. The ENTIRE system needs to be re-bled...starting with the MC. It needs to be bench bled. Then make our way down the entire setup.

Why the hell didn't I think of that before?


[reaches over and pulls the light cord above EVASIVE's head]

*click*
-jonathan

bigdare23
09-19-2007, 09:00 PM
Shit...Cato...why didn't I think of this?

When we did the swap, ALL of the fluid drained out of the system. The ENTIRE system needs to be re-bled...starting with the MC. It needs to be bench bled. Then make our way down the entire setup.

Why the hell didn't I think of that before?

:eek:
You really endangered Chris life!!!!

EvasiveEF9
09-19-2007, 09:07 PM
[reaches over and pulls the light cord above EVASIVE's head]

*click*
-jonathan
:2up: LoL

ash7
09-19-2007, 09:08 PM
I can confirm that 90-91 calipers have larger pistons than 88 calipers... but I can't confirm that they're the same size as DA. The rear calipers are the same DA vs. EF, so it doesn't make sense to me that a CRX Si would ship with a 2040 valve and and a DA would come with a 4040. Why would Honda make two parts if the brake systems are the same?

The proportiong valve allows for the weight of the car for stability under extreme braking. The orifice inside the valve itself is larger or smaller, and the spring that allows pressure to pass to the rear brakes is stronger or weaker. The CRX weighs a lot less than a DA, thus requiring a smaller valve.

Answer to the second half of your question can be found here:

http://www.norcalcrx.org/tyson/brakepartslist.xls

-jonathan

EvasiveEF9
09-19-2007, 09:33 PM
LoL...he said orifice...

ash7
09-19-2007, 09:55 PM
Yes, I am. I'll be in the tower taking care of timing stuff and on track in DE2. You going to be there?

I'm planning on it. Although in my line of work, i could get a phone call and be at the airport within the hour. That's what happened at the Road Atlanta event last month, halfway there my phone rang....

-jonathan

EvasiveEF9
09-19-2007, 10:08 PM
...I really need to do something with my car so I can go out and play some more...

bigdare23
09-19-2007, 10:19 PM
...I really need to do something with my car so I can go out and play some more...


here's a suggestion :goodjob:

Papa_Smurf
09-19-2007, 10:36 PM
...I really need to do something with my car so I can go out and play some more...

buy that other kid's EF BEN!!!!!

Cato ED-6
09-19-2007, 10:51 PM
:eek:
You really endangered Chris life!!!!

LOL its not as bad as it sounds, I just took a run down East Cherokee Dr.(you know this place Ben?) And my brakes are grabbing, well not like they should but they do grab ok. If they didn't I wouldn't be here right now...:D And its Cato, no one has called me Chris in over 3 years.:rolleyes:


Shit...Cato...why didn't I think of this?

When we did the swap, ALL of the fluid drained out of the system. The ENTIRE system needs to be re-bled...starting with the MC. It needs to be bench bled. Then make our way down the entire setup.

Why the hell didn't I think of that before?!


Go on...you have my attention.

EvasiveEF9
09-20-2007, 12:35 AM
here's a suggestion :goodjob:
Well, damn. That's harsh. To think...you were one of the people I was thinking of leaving posession of my car while I'm away for the next four years...

LOL its not as bad as it sounds, I just took a run down East Cherokee Dr.(you know this place Ben?) And my brakes are grabbing, well not like they should but they do grab ok. If they didn't I wouldn't be here right now...:D And its Cato, no one has called me Chris in over 3 years.:rolleyes:



Go on...you have my attention.
[/i]
LoLoL @ Chris. I know South Cherokee. I don't frequent East Cherokee...

Cato ED-6
09-20-2007, 12:42 AM
LoLoL @ Chris. I know South Cherokee. I don't frequent East Cherokee...

Well its true.

I'm talking about E. Cherokee Drive. Its right off of Canton Hwy. Near the other end of it, by I-20, is a very nice mountain-like road. Not as many tight turns but its fun to cruise down.


But tell me about this bench bleeding. Will it fix my brakes? And where can I get it done? Any solution to this problem...and I'm all ears.

bigdare23
09-20-2007, 07:08 AM
Well, damn. That's harsh. To think...you were one of the people I was thinking of leaving posession of my car while I'm away for the next four years...

LoLoL @ Chris. I know South Cherokee. I don't frequent East Cherokee...


Oh second thought, replace the car with you :lmfao:

EvasiveEF9
09-20-2007, 05:05 PM
Well its true.

I'm talking about E. Cherokee Drive. Its right off of Canton Hwy. Near the other end of it, by I-20, is a very nice mountain-like road. Not as many tight turns but its fun to cruise down.


But tell me about this bench bleeding. Will it fix my brakes? And where can I get it done? Any solution to this problem...and I'm all ears.
It should...it's GOTTA be the problem... And we can do it. We'll see if we can't get it up to the shop saturday if I don't get to go to MEPS/ASVAB. Otherwise, sometime early next week after Ig et off work.

EvasiveEF9
09-20-2007, 05:08 PM
Oh second thought, replace the car with you :lmfao:
Cuz I'm not driveable...and you're not allowed to ride me. You must be at least 54inches.

Cato ED-6
09-20-2007, 05:43 PM
It should...it's GOTTA be the problem... And we can do it. We'll see if we can't get it up to the shop saturday if I don't get to go to MEPS/ASVAB. Otherwise, sometime early next week after Ig et off work.

When can you find out if you're going to take the ASVAB?
I'm busy this weekend, but if we can finish this up I can take time off. LMK asap

Other wise it's going to get confusing again. Mon-Thur, 3pm-10pm I'm booked.

bigdare23
09-20-2007, 10:53 PM
Cuz I'm not driveable...and you're not allowed to ride me. You must be at least 54inches.


shut your ass up :lmfao:

EvasiveEF9
09-21-2007, 07:30 PM
When can you find out if you're going to take the ASVAB?
I'm busy this weekend, but if we can finish this up I can take time off. LMK asap

Other wise it's going to get confusing again. Mon-Thur, 3pm-10pm I'm booked.
Not gonna be taking the ASVAB this weekend. Let's shoot for my house sometime saturday afternoon time. Boss is going to a funeral tomorrow...so...shop's down. For some anger management, I'm going to the range with about 300rounds tomorrow...

shut your ass up :lmfao:
Is it...is "BOOM" the word I'm supposed to use?

Get your ass up this way tomorrow. Let's go to the range.

mxglory258
09-22-2007, 01:31 AM
I always gravity bleed anything when I do brakes. Then I manually bleed them, breaking the bleeders loose 3 times per corner. Drive it, and bleed it out once more.

If bleeding it dont help, or the valve, check your Master Cylinder. Could be a bad o'ring. Also your rear calipers, maybe they need rebuilt.