German Muscle vs. Japanese Hustle (335i vs IS350)

[nbennettksu]

:D enjoy


BMW has it and Lexus wants it. That's all you need to know about the confrontation between the 2007 BMW 335i and 2007 Lexus IS 350.

As the first compact sport sedan with more than 300 horsepower, the IS 350 has been the quickest car in this class since its redesign in 2006. But the 2007 BMW 335i has been through a redesign of its own, and its new twin-turbo 300-hp inline-6 now measures up against the Lexus V6.

Putting together the 2007 BMW 335i and the 2007 Lexus IS 350 will tell us which car gets it done in the speed sweepstakes. More important, these two cars (http://www.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=366581&page=1&pp=25#) are redefining a category that the BMW 3 Series has dominated for 20 years, and we'll find out which car will lead us into the future.

Choosing the Hardware
When we matched these cars against each other in 2006, the newly redesigned 306-hp Lexus IS 350 ran away from the 255-hp BMW 330i with a quicker acceleration to 60 mph by more than a full second. On the other hand, that BMW outmaneuvered the Lexus in every objective and subjective handling category.

For 2007, the deal has changed. The 2007 BMW 335i packs an even 300 hp (perhaps even more), and it also takes the 3 Series further in the direction of sophistication, making it a competitor for the IS 350 in refinement as well as speed. Meanwhile, the 2007 Lexus IS 350 allows you to switch off its vehicle (http://www.acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=366581&page=1&pp=25#) stability control, so you can explore the limits of its dynamic envelope.

For this like-to-like comparison, we've chosen a BMW 335i with the optional $1,275 three-mode six-speed automatic, plus the optional $100 shift paddles on the steering wheel. This car matches up with the Lexus IS 350 and its standard six-speed automatic with shift paddles.

The New Order
"There is nothing more difficult to take in hand, more perilous to conduct, or more uncertain in its success, than to take the lead in the introduction of a new order to things." — Niccolò Machiavelli

While the BMW inline-6 has always been known for its smooth and linear power delivery, it has rarely been celebrated for its horsepower. But now that BMW has adopted direct injection and sequential turbocharging, the all-new twin-turbo N54 engine feels like something from BMW's M division. A plateau of 300 pound-feet of torque begins at 1,400 rpm and extends all the way to 7,000 rpm.

And what a difference a year, 45 horsepower and 80 lb-ft of torque make. Not only does the 300-hp 335i slash nearly 2 seconds from the 0-to-60-mph time recorded by the 2006 330i, it also outaccelerates the Lexus IS 350 in the process. The 2007 335i sprints to 60 mph in just 4.9 seconds and blitzes the quarter-mile in 13.4 seconds at 103.9 mph — and all this with an automatic transmission.

The Quick and the Stead
With the 2007 Lexus IS 350's traction control shut down, we managed to find nearly a half-second improvement in its acceleration profile on the drag strip right up to the 1,320-foot mark, where it recorded a time slip nearly identical to last year's. The launch to 30 mph is 0.4 second quicker, as is the time to 60 mph. The quarter-mile comes up in 13.8 seconds at 101.2 mph.

The IS 350's DOHC 3.5-liter V6 also represents new engine technology for Lexus. It's a model of high-revving, almost electric smoothness, yet this V6 must reach 4,800 rpm before all of its 277 lb-ft of torque is accounted for. By then the award-winning turbocharged BMW six is already riding a huge wave of neck-straining twist, and the 335i shows the IS 350 its trunk badge. Where the Lexus zings through the gears to make haste, the BMW doesn't have to shift to go fast.

Grab a Gear
"The most dangerous phrase in the language is, 'We've always done it this way.'" — Rear Admiral Grace M. Hopper, U.S. Navy

The shift paddles mounted on the steering wheel of the Lexus IS 350 are simple to operate, as you pull on the right one for an upshift and then tug on the left one for a downshift. The paddles select gears more or less quickly, but fail to match engine revs during downshifts, which slows the process by a fraction.

BMW has engineered its shift-paddle system to afford both up- and downshifts with either paddle, as you pull with your fingers to produce a very, very quick upshift and then push with your thumb to get a speedy downshift with matching engine revs.

The ergonomics of shift-paddle arrangement are better in the Lexus, but the logic of the BMW system is more convenient. Meanwhile, we prefer BMW's approach to the shift pattern of the console lever in manual mode, as you pull back to upshift and push forward to downshift, as if you were using 3rd and 4th gears in a manual transmission. Many Japanese cars seem to prefer the pattern of 2nd and 3rd gears in a manual transmission, where you push forward to upshift and pull back for a downshift.

Tailhooks for Brakes
Both cars stop from 60 mph like a naval jetfighter snagging the three-wire during a carrier landing, and you can feel the strain on your clavicle from the seatbelt as the Lexus comes to a halt in 114 feet and the BMW stops in 116 feet.

We encountered a dilemma when it came to ranking the brakes on these cars. Where the 335i provided superior feel and controllability at speed, its pedal also presented an odd tendency to feel sticky at low speed, as if it were controlled by some digital logic. Stop-and-go traffic proved to be a lurching, jerky affair.

On the other hand, the Lexus brakes offered adept control in the slow stuff, delivering textbook limo-style stops, but the light-effort pedal action seemed isolated from the system and didn't match the BMW's ability to provide two-way communication during assertive driving.

The Indulgent Electronic Nanny
"It's better to beg forgiveness than ask permission." — Rear Admiral Grace M. Hopper, U.S. Navy

Lexus has gone to some trouble to make its latest-generation vehicle stability system one of the most sophisticated available, so maybe it's no surprise that when it was introduced, the system didn't include a switch to turn it off. But thanks to a decision made at the highest level at Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A. (so we understand), the 2007 VSC recognizes that there are some circumstances when it might be disabled.

When the VSC system is engaged, the algorithmic threshold of electronic stability intervention is within an eyelash of the car's actual limits. Driven smoothly right up to the VSC's boundaries, the Lexus IS 350 delivers virtually the same level of grip as the car will afford without it. Overdrive the car, however, and you're asking for a slap on the hand — a beep and a yaw correction.

What we did find with the VSC disabled was that there's a measure of athleticism in the IS 350 we had never experienced before. Even if the electric-assisted steering feels rather numb, like winding a constant-rate spring, it's delightful to rotate the car around each cone in our test slalom with such a high degree of precision that we can place the front tire within inches while gently sliding the rear tires.

We admire this sort of vehicle behavior in a sport sedan, but we have to tell you that it doesn't actually generate any performance improvement that you can measure.

Hitting an Invisible Target
"Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see." — Arthur Schopenhauer

So along comes the fifth-generation 3 Series, and not surprisingly, it's better. It makes better numbers at the test track, and every driver appreciates its conversational steering, high levels of cornering grip and the peerless way it envelops road irregularities and smothers them. It's remarkable that in this age of super-computer design and virtual testing, BMW continues to hit the ride-handling target that no one else can even see.

The Lexus earns our respect for a competitive level of handling accomplishment, although we were surprised that its characteristic placid ride sometimes broke down when the front tires suddenly transmitted a jolt of harshness while confronting sharp surface irregularities.

There's also an important difference in the specification of these two cars, as the 335i was equipped with a $1,700 Sport package, including a retuned suspension with low-profile, high-performance tires on 18-inch wheels. We're guessing that if the IS 350 also were fitted with its $3,695 Sport package, all of its capabilities and liabilities would be similarly increased.

The Value of Greatness
"What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing." — Oscar Wilde

This is usually the part of a comparison of sport sedans where we apologetically explain that the BMW costs more, and that you get what you pay for. This time, the as-tested price of our well-equipped 2007 BMW 335i is $1,325 less than that of the luxuriously optioned 2007 Lexus IS 350. On the other hand, the base prices of these cars go the other way, with the Lexus undercutting the BMW by $3,255.

In an attempt to balance content with price, we weighted both the price and selected features equally at 25 percent of our comparison's total test score. We chose only those features we felt contribute to the sporting character of the car itself, like electronic stability control, sport suspension/tire package, transmission specification, bi-xenon headlamps and a smart-key entry/starting system. Scored in this fashion, the BMW comes out ahead. Had this been a luxury sedan gizmo-fest, it may have gone the other way.

Second Place
"We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the 15 which we do possess." — Mark Twain

The 2007 Lexus IS 350 is a fantastically rewarding sport sedan on many levels. It's a high-spirited luxury car in a low-impact sort of way. The IS 350 is a driver's car, just not the kind of sport sedan that goads you beyond your talent and into the guardrail. The Lexus demonstrates refinement in every molecule in way that a BMW never will. The IS 350 is defined by an easy, breezy nonchalance that can make you forget about communicative steering, slalom speeds and even more power.

First Place
"Success usually comes to those who are too busy to be looking for it." — Henry David Thoreau

Once you get a sport sedan right, it shows a depth of engineering and design skill. Get it really right, and it will win widely publicized awards and bring enthusiasts to the showroom. The 2007 BMW 335i does both, and it's without a doubt the best-performing and yet most well-rounded 3 Series ever. The BMW 335i is still the best sport sedan money can buy, and you can quote us on that.

The manufacturers provided Edmunds these vehicles for the purposes of evaluation.

[Andy_013]

I'll take a Lexus over a BMW any day.

[JDMjoe]

IS350 is waaaaaaay sexier :D

[OneSlow5pt0]

BMW

[nbennettksu]

IS350 is waaaaaaay sexier :D
haha nooo way.

[BlkCD5]

The battle continues. The 335i's torque curve snaps necks.

[nbennettksu]

335 really is the "King"

[admedlin]

I'd take the BMW. there's more possibility with the twin turbo setup than with the n/a IS.

I would drive either one, but if I had the extra money laying around, I would get the BMW

[The Youngn]

i thought the phrase was "German Engineering"....but on topic, BMW

[The Yousef]

335i for me...


TWIN TURBOED CHARGED!


http://www.vishnutuning.com/bmw_1_v380.htm

^read that and weep

[GIXXERDK]

I'll take a Lexus over a BMW any day.

Really? :???:

[_Christian_]

BMW>Toyota, and thats stock. as for the IS keeping up if they're modded, haha more likely to find an ice cream truck in hell.

[Andy_013]

Really? :???:

yes
I love JDM VIP sedan from lexus and toyota.:D

[superboost]

a famous man once said "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races". Looks like it applies here too.

available torque ftw by the bmw.

[Ran]

Lexus > Ultifail Driving Machine


The Lexus demonstrates refinement in every molecule in way that a BMW never will.

[BlkCD5]

There should be a poll. Honestly, who on here cares about the ownership costs of these two vehicles as a purchasing factor?

[Jaimecbr900]

Hmmm, so it took twin turbos to reach the performance level of an NA and that is some kind of "accomplishment"???? What's going to happen when Lexus comes out with their own "turbo" version of the IS????? ;)

[Ran]

Hmmm, so it took twin turbos to reach the performance level of an NA and that is some kind of "accomplishment"???? What's going to happen when Lexus comes out with their own "turbo" version of the IS????? ;)They will complain about power delivery, harshness, or it just being too powerful for it's class. If you truly want a luxury car with reliability and excellent service, you'll get a Lexus.

I've seen repair costs from Volvo, Audi and similar upper-class companies for their turbo vehicles. The maintenance on a turbo BMW is going to kill some people.

[Jaimecbr900]

They will complain about power delivery, harshness, or it just being too powerful for it's class. If you truly want a luxury car with reliability and excellent service, you'll get a Lexus.

Preaching to the choir brother, preaching to the choir.....:D


I've seen repair costs from Volvo, Audi and similar upper-class companies for their turbo vehicles. The maintenance on a turbo BMW is going to kill some people.

Well, and that was kinda my point. Lexus has no factory turbo cars, probably one of reasons they are ranked so high in reliability every year. They like to build ultra reliable NA cars, and BMW was actually a lot like that up until now. I suspect that although BMW had larger displacement (up until the IS350 came out) and won every comparo (although I think some are very biased anyway) they got complacent. When Lexus took their crown, they pulled out all the stops and the 335i came about.

My question is this though:

Although I am biased, why would the automotive world be all giddy about a car that REQUIRES not 1 but 2 turbos to keep up???? Anyone can do that, right? Can they build an NA motor and put it in the 3 series to compete head-to-head though? That's just on the performance side, also remember interior, reliability, costs (both initial and maintainance), resale value, etc. should also be taken into consideration to truly crown a mid-size sport sedan like this. Question is, has the new 335i been upgraded enough to be so good all around to be on top of the heap???

BTW, what's going to happen when the IS-F comes out next year with over 400 NA HP???? Is BMW going to go QUAD turbo on us to keep up????? :lmfao:

[nbennettksu]

There should be a poll. Honestly, who on here cares about the ownership costs of these two vehicles as a purchasing factor?
:werd: of you can afford one, you can afford the other...

[nbennettksu]

Hmmm, so it took twin turbos to reach the performance level of an NA and that is some kind of "accomplishment"???? What's going to happen when Lexus comes out with their own "turbo" version of the IS????? ;)
then bmw will will put bigger turbos on there. They have kept the 335 engine somewhat restricted, for when things such as the turbo IS (which will probably never happen) come along.

Same concept that Honda/Acura did with the J seriese engine.

[nbennettksu]

They will complain about power delivery, harshness, or it just being too powerful for it's class. If you truly want a luxury car with reliability and excellent service, you'll get a Lexus.

I've seen repair costs from Volvo, Audi and similar upper-class companies for their turbo vehicles. The maintenance on a turbo BMW is going to kill some people.
Maintenance on a turbo BMW is freefor 5years/50,000 miles :D



not 1 but 2 turbos to keep up
uhh...they put 2 on there to eliminate any turbo lag:goodjob:

[mocha latte cupcake]

IS350 twin that and walk away from the euro trash

BMW = big money wasted

[nbennettksu]

IS350 twin that and walk away from the euro trash

BMW = big money wasted

ooh ok.

[Ran]

Maintenance on a turbo BMW is freefor 5years/50,000 miles :D Yeah, Lexus offers the free maintanance as well but, when you drive as much as I do (25-30K) a year in a new car, warranties don't tend to last very long.

In the end, I'd still be looking at the Lexus as I'd prefer having to maintaining a N/A Toyota motor as opposed to a turbo BMW one.

Note: If I was going to get a BMW, it would definitely be the new M Coupe on the Z4 platform. :yes:

[Jaimecbr900]

then bmw will will put bigger turbos on there. They have kept the 335 engine somewhat restricted, for when things such as the turbo IS (which will probably never happen) come along.

Same concept that Honda/Acura did with the J seriese engine.

They won't put bigger turbos because of the engineering involved in having to do that.

Besides, the Lexus IS-F is going to be N/A and over 400 HP. Simply adding a bigger turbo(s) is not going to get them there. ;)


Maintenance on a turbo BMW is freefor 5years/50,000 miles :D

What happens AFTER 50K? Trade it in? Sell it? Get a second mortgage on your house??? ;) It's a sales gimmick. Truly reliable cars don't depend on warranties to sell cars. ;)



uhh...they put 2 on there to eliminate any turbo lag:goodjob:

Really??? I didn't know that.....:rolleyes:

Turbo lag or ceramic ball bearing turbos:rolleyes: .....didn't they NEED it to keep up???? THAT was my point. Look at the results the previous year and compare to now. What's the big difference???? TWIN TURBOS.....get it?

[4dmin]

BMW out of the box i would buy ;)

turbo = more power for cheap!!!


GIAC FTMFW!!!

[mocha latte cupcake]

booooo! paul is a sell out booooo!


i wuv u

[1SICKLEX]

Both are great cars, but lets go back in time a lil..
Toyota had a 3.0 TT making 320 hp, uhhh, since 1993 in the Aristo TT in Japan and the Supra TT here and in Japan. BMW making 300 hp from a TT I-6 is fantastic but Toyota did it over a decade ago.

Did yall know the BMW uses Mitsubishi turbos? Now it is a much easier engine to mod, people are chipping it getting 350-375hp with no problems.

The 3.5 V-6 in the IS 350 is NA, it makes 306hp and has been tested 0-60 in 4.9 seconds in R&T. The car is very quick.

THe BMW does handle better stock, the IS 350 still has some work in that area but its not that far off.

I prefer the IS 350s looks to the 335 coupe, I cannot believe it looks bland to me. I really like how the 3 series sedan looks though.

Also the BMW engines have been overheating left and right, they did not put an oil cooler in initial models, they are now. The Lexus, well its a Lexus it won't break down. The BMW does have free just about everything maintenance the first 50k miles.

[BlkCD5]

:thinking: how well will their sequential system hold up. Some people just convert over to single turbo applications i.e (Supra, Rx-7).

[jfman]

BMW>Toyota

After all it's what it is... a toyota.

[Mike Lowrey]

BMW>Toyota

After all it's what it is... a toyota.

And, that is why you are a moron.

[Mike Lowrey]

Just another tidbit on why BMW put twin turbos in the 335. They found themselves beat out by Lexus in power and speed and needed to add more power. The existing chassis could not accomadate a larger displacement motor in inline form. Their only choice to make a quick imporvement was to add the turbos. It was either that or redesign the chassis. :goodjob:

I would take the Lexus over the BMW any day and twice on Sunday.....

Actually, I did. I have owned the IS350, and would own another one without thinking twice.

The real comparo will come with the New BMW M# and the Lexus IS-F. These two cars are made for a similar purpose. Lets see just how close Lexus has come to the BMW. :goodjob:

[superboost]

Preaching to the choir brother, preaching to the choir.....:D




Although I am biased, why would the automotive world be all giddy about a car that REQUIRES not 1 but 2 turbos to keep up???? Anyone can do that, right? Can they build an NA motor and put it in the 3 series to compete head-to-head though? That's just on the performance side, also remember interior, reliability, costs (both initial and maintainance), resale value, etc. should also be taken into consideration to truly crown a mid-size sport sedan like this. Question is, has the new 335i been upgraded enough to be so good all around to be on top of the heap???

BTW, what's going to happen when the IS-F comes out next year with over 400 NA HP???? Is BMW going to go QUAD turbo on us to keep up????? :lmfao:

WEll, we all know that is a load of crap. They've put the turbos on for driveability, but not for power. When you look at this I6 vs the outgoing M3's I6, the 3.2 liter M3 engine it made 333hp in its regular NA trim and 350hp in its CSL trim. BMW has made powerful, reliable (albiet expensive) NA motors for years, so lexus making ultra-powerful, reliable NA motors or the fact that BMW requires turbos to keep up is just a cop out.

I think BMW did this more to improve the driveability of the car. To "keep up", if they wanted to do all out power, they could easily crank the boost, or add larger turbos, but they decided to reign things in to keep the torque peak high, yet even. The way it was engineered, the power comes on extremely early ,peaks early and is very broad. Contrast this to the high strung lexus motor, its apples and oranges, but due to the earlier peaking torque, the bimmer is going to take off earlier, no doubt about that.

However, to say they "require" turbos is bullshit. If anything, lexus/toyota delved into turbos much more than bmw with the Supras/ soarer etc. Until this particular car, BMW has always been known for its powerful, high revving NA motors and if you wanted to go that route, you know an M3 would easily trounce the IS350.

Its a nice car, but the m3 of old, or an M3 CSl would destroy the IS....but they're in two different classes entirely. All i'm saying is that BMW make legendary NA motors. Don't take that away from them.

[Jaimecbr900]

They've put the turbos on for driveability, but not for power.

Ummm, you smoking crack???? So according to YOU, the turbos were NOT added for power but to make the car "DRIVE" better????? :thinking: That makes about as much sense as having sex with a prostitute without a condom....NONE at all.



When you look at this I6 vs the outgoing M3's I6, the 3.2 liter M3 engine it made 333hp in its regular NA trim and 350hp in its CSL trim. BMW has made powerful, reliable (albiet expensive) NA motors for years, so lexus making ultra-powerful, reliable NA motors or the fact that BMW requires turbos to keep up is just a cop out.

Apples to 747's. Even below you admit that the M series is NOT a comparo with the IS350, so why compare their engines then???? :thinking:


I think BMW did this more to improve the driveability of the car. To "keep up", if they wanted to do all out power, they could easily crank the boost, or add larger turbos, but they decided to reign things in to keep the torque peak high, yet even. The way it was engineered, the power comes on extremely early ,peaks early and is very broad. Contrast this to the high strung lexus motor, its apples and oranges, but due to the earlier peaking torque, the bimmer is going to take off earlier, no doubt about that.

To quote you, this is all a "cop out". So let me get this straight, BMW put in twin turbos NOT to regain their sports sedan performance title but for driveability yet all you talk about here refers to PERFORMANCE.....how's that work again? :thinking: BTW, the ONLY reason they have a torque curve as nice as they do IS the twin turbos, no other reason.


However, to say they "require" turbos is bullshit. If anything, lexus/toyota delved into turbos much more than bmw with the Supras/ soarer etc. Until this particular car, BMW has always been known for its powerful, high revving NA motors and if you wanted to go that route, you know an M3 would easily trounce the IS350.

Wow, and BMW delved into airplanes before Toyota......what's that got to do with the price of tea in China? :thinking:

Name a factory STOCK turbo Lexus. Name one. That's what I said, right? Not Toyota, Not Nissan, Not Mitsubishi....LEXUS has always and continue to make remarkably reliable NA motors in their entire line. BMW USED to be the same way. The real bottomline is that in a comparo test you should NOT be able to compare an NA motor to a TT motor if you are going to put so much emphasis on "performance" because that truly is an uneven playing field. THAT was my point.


Its a nice car, but the m3 of old, or an M3 CSl would destroy the IS....but they're in two different classes entirely. All i'm saying is that BMW make legendary NA motors. Don't take that away from them.

So why compare them or bring it up? My car is faster than a stock Lexus too, so why would that be a comparo? I know of several turbo IS3's that would smoke an M3. Again, what's that got to do with it? The comparison is of an IS350 vs 335i, not M series. As you acknowledge, it's not a fair comparo otherwise.

[superboost]

Ummm, you smoking crack???? So according to YOU, the turbos were NOT added for power but to make the car "DRIVE" better????? :thinking: That makes about as much sense as having sex with a prostitute without a condom....NONE at all.




Apples to 747's. Even below you admit that the M series is NOT a comparo with the IS350, so why compare their engines then???? :thinking:



To quote you, this is all a "cop out". So let me get this straight, BMW put in twin turbos NOT to regain their sports sedan performance title but for driveability yet all you talk about here refers to PERFORMANCE.....how's that work again? :thinking: BTW, the ONLY reason they have a torque curve as nice as they do IS the twin turbos, no other reason.



Wow, and BMW delved into airplanes before Toyota......what's that got to do with the price of tea in China? :thinking:

Name a factory STOCK turbo Lexus. Name one. That's what I said, right? Not Toyota, Not Nissan, Not Mitsubishi....LEXUS has always and continue to make remarkably reliable NA motors in their entire line. BMW USED to be the same way. The real bottomline is that in a comparo test you should NOT be able to compare an NA motor to a TT motor if you are going to put so much emphasis on "performance" because that truly is an uneven playing field. THAT was my point.



So why compare them or bring it up? My car is faster than a stock Lexus too, so why would that be a comparo? I know of several turbo IS3's that would smoke an M3. Again, what's that got to do with it? The comparison is of an IS350 vs 335i, not M series. As you acknowledge, it's not a fair comparo otherwise.


The m-series chasis is certainly no comparo to the IS, but the engines sure are. You want to go NA to NA, then you'd compare the motors, the chasis of the M-series is a 2 door sports sedan. The IS is a 4 door. However, you can compare motors till the cows come home because as you know, lexus/toyoto tended to put the 2jz motor in many a car both sporty and non, same as bmw did with their I6. Your bias is showing sir. I, myself do not own a bimmer nor have I owned a lexus. I admire the powerplants of both cars, but i'm a turbo volvo lover lol.

Anyways, I've driven both and I"ll give it to the bimmer. The reason why you add turbos to improve driveability is because there is this little force that turbos tend to add to an engine known as torque. Torque moves the car. Torque gets the car off the line sooner. HP and torque working together move the car down the road at a high rate of speed, which we are all fond of. Now if said vehicle is turbo charged in such a way as to allow the torque to come in sooner, it will accelerate faster, easier and more linearly than its NA cousin...Hence more driveable. The m3 on the other hand actually still makes more power than its boosted derivative, yet the turbo'd cousin will move off the line sooner and be more driveable as a result due to the greater (earlier) torque.

And lets not compare turbo IS3's to turbo M3s. We all know how beastly they can get.

All I'm saying is that you can't necessarily chump off the new 3 series anymore than the IS. BMW has been making high performance NA 6 cyl engines for a long, long time. The m3 is testament to that. Lexus/Toyota too has been making high performance turbo 6 cyl engines for a long, long time. You've got 2 or 3 generations of Supra, the soarer and other cars that allow show this quite clearly. However, its pretty clear they're trying to leap frog each other and BMW just jumped a little farther.....

Now if next gen, Toyota/Lexus decides to boost the IS, i'm sure it would be pretty cool. After all, they've been doing it longer/more than BMW have. They should have greater experience.

[Jaimecbr900]

Anyways, I've driven both and I"ll give it to the bimmer. The reason why you add turbos to improve driveability is because there is this little force that turbos tend to add to an engine known as torque. Torque moves the car. Torque gets the car off the line sooner. HP and torque working together move the car down the road at a high rate of speed, which we are all fond of. Now if said vehicle is turbo charged in such a way as to allow the torque to come in sooner, it will accelerate faster, easier and more linearly than its NA cousin...Hence more driveable. The m3 on the other hand actually still makes more power than its boosted derivative, yet the turbo'd cousin will move off the line sooner and be more driveable as a result due to the greater (earlier) torque.

You obviously didn't get what I was trying to say.

NA vs NA, the Lexus STILL does and DID beat the BMW head-to-head. No question about that. THAT is my point. NA to NA is a true even keel level playing field comparo. Last year, the IS350 beat the 3 series BMW by more than a full sec to 60 and about the same in the 1/4. That's TROUNCING. THAT is the main reason why the twins were added to the 3 series and NOT the M series. That they added more torque and better off the line.....well, DUHHHHH!!! My whole direct point is simple:

Without the twins the BMW's performance compared to the IS350's is WHAT????? Look it up. Look back at previous head-to-head tests. The BMW has always had the incredible chassis and handling. No question. Just as the fit and finish go to the Lexus too. No question. But when you compare raw performance numbers, it is IMO highly unfair and biased if you compare an FI car with an NA car, even IF the HP numbers are close to each other because......drum roll......TORQUE....which in the NA motor can only come from ONE place whereas in the turbo motor is a function of simply turning up the boost. Get what I'm saying?


And lets not compare turbo IS3's to turbo M3s. We all know how beastly they can get.

I used this to illustrate how it wasn't fair to the M3 to pit it against a TURBO IS300 either. TURBO IS's SHOULD romp on NA M3's.....THAT is the point. It's NOT a fair comparo. Just like it's silly for everyone to be all goo goo and ga ga over BMW's 335 hitting 300 HP and great torque.....DUH, it has 2 turbos.....DUR, DUR!!! :rolleyes:



Now if next gen, Toyota/Lexus decides to boost the IS, i'm sure it would be pretty cool. After all, they've been doing it longer/more than BMW have. They should have greater experience.

Look, I'm not a blinders on Lexus diehard. I love all kinds of cars, some BMW's included. Lexus is going to counter next year with the IS-F, although I think that's more geared toward competing with the M series. I actually like the look and technology behind the 335i. I've not yet driven one, but I'm certain I'll love it when I do. I wouldn't take anything away from a car that's a perenial winner. No doubt about it.

I just wanted to point out how it's ironic that all the automotive world and spectators are all a buzz about this "IS350 Killer" when if you want to truly break it down.....they did add twins to get to the same HP level that the Lexus has NA. Right or wrong? They did get beat rather handedly when it was NA vs NA. Right or wrong? Like I said above, the 335i is a very cool car. It has gobs of additional potential on top of already great attributes. Not taking anything at all away from them at all. I'm merely pointing out that it is not entirely fair to compare an NA car to an FI car as if they were complete equals because there is no way they can be IMO.

[CleanCL]

Lexus has nothing on BMW.

[Jaimecbr900]

Lexus has nothing on BMW.

That was deep. Don't over exert yourself next time....:rolleyes:

[jfman]

Their only choice to make a quick imporvement was to add the turbos. It was either that or redesign the chassis. :goodjob:

I . :goodjob:

No YOU are a moron. The E92 chassis accepts v8 and even v10 engines. What a fucking moron.

[OneSlow5pt0]

e36 > e46 chassis

[Ran]

Wow, this actually turned out to be a good thread. Reps to both parties.

EDIT: Jamie, I'll have to hit you up later. I gotta spread it around some.

[BobbyFresco]

No YOU are a moron. The E92 chassis accepts v8 and even v10 engines. What a fucking moron.


True story..The current issue of Eurotuner has a NA 550 HP V10 BMW 325i.:goodjob:
So much for the theory that BMW can't do magic with NA, right?
Overpriced Toyota FTL.

[I <3 my EF]

Both are great cars, but lets go back in time a lil..
Toyota had a 3.0 TT making 320 hp, uhhh, since 1993 in the Aristo TT in Japan and the Supra TT here and in Japan. BMW making 300 hp from a TT I-6 is fantastic but Toyota did it over a decade ago.

Yes let's go back even farther into the 1970's when BMW came out with a fantastic little car called the 2002. I'm just saying that BMW did it's factory turbo fun before Toyota did, to my knowledge. Not counting racing engines or any twin turbo setups, just a single turbo, but wtf do I know I'm a noob. Anyways BMW ftw.

[ISAtlanta300]

True story..The current issue of Eurotuner has a NA 550 HP V10 BMW 325i.:goodjob:
So much for the theory that BMW can't do magic with NA, right?
Overpriced Toyota FTL.

Uhm.. it's a V10 !! it's EXPECTED to have 550HP... nothing magic about that....

Next.

[Turbo Terrance]

Can anyone say 760Li " Built Muthafuckin' Wright":goodjob:

[superboost]

True, bmw did factory turbo earlier, but they were also the first to shun them and go back to NA. Supposedly turbos were not condusive to the "driving experience". Toyota seemed to favor turbo charging more. I find it funny now that the shoe is on the other foot, toyota lovers are bitching. The IS350 was just redesigned a few years back and the 3 series is now just being redesigned. WHile they fit in the same class, they achieve power in two different ways. Its apparent BMW did their homework here and made an excellent car that makes power well. Just give it to em. THe IS350 is also great though, just in a different way.

[Mike Lowrey]

No YOU are a moron. The E92 chassis accepts v8 and even v10 engines. What a fucking moron.

Hey dumbass, BMW was already planning to put a V8 in the M3 and were not going to put the same in the 335. :goodjob: The problem was they could not get the power they needed out of the current motor without FI. Hencethe TT. Let us at least look at the whole picture.

[1989_crx_si]

i'll still get the LEXUS even though it's slower.. the BMW cost $3k+ more than the LEXUS so i'll invest that in a turbo for the lexus and spank that BMW's azz even harder =P

[BobbyFresco]

Uhm.. it's a V10 !! it's EXPECTED to have 550HP... nothing magic about that....

Next.


LOL..spoken like a true Lexus owner....

If you're content with your overpriced,underpowered Toyota, more power to ya.


:goodjob:


At the end of the day a Lexus is a Toyota and a BMW is a BMW.....:tongue1:

[BlkCD5]

Originally posted by StuntallDay
If you're content with your overpriced,underpowered Toyota, more power to ya.
At the end of the day a Lexus is a Toyota and a BMW is a BMW.....

and Bmw's aren't overpriced :rolleyes:? To each their own I guess. Lexus has constantly been kicking ass regarding value in the luxury car department ever since toyota introduced the division.



originally posted by 1989_crx_si
I'll still get the LEXUS even though it's slower.. the BMW cost $3k+ more than the LEXUS so i'll invest that in a turbo for the lexus and spank that BMW's azz even harder =P

Don't bring up that. It would be just like, domestic vs. import dollar per hp ratio argument. Yea, but put $3k in the Bmw and see what happens.

Bottom line is

335i= Great car for those don't mind spending money and would go balls out on a performance car

IS350= for the conservative type, appreciates performance at a "close" level but would rather spend that extra money elsewhere

Either way, both are awesome cars.

[Jaimecbr900]

and Bmw's aren't overpriced :rolleyes:? To each their own I guess. Lexus has constantly been kicking ass regarding value in the luxury car department ever since toyota introduced the division.




Don't bring up that. It would be just like, domestic vs. import dollar per hp ratio argument. Yea, but put $3k in the Bmw and see what happens.

Bottom line is

335i= Great car for those don't mind spending money and would go balls out on a performance car

IS350= for the conservative type, appreciates performance at a "close" level but would rather spend that extra money elsewhere

Either way, both are awesome cars.

One of the best posts in the entire thread right there. Way to go. :goodjob:

[1000cckiller]

335i FTMFW

[jfman]

Their only choice to make a quick imporvement was to add the turbos. It was either that or redesign the chassis.



Hey dumbass, BMW was already planning to put a V8 in the M3 and were not going to put the same in the 335. :goodjob: The problem was they could not get the power they needed out of the current motor without FI. Hencethe TT. Let us at least look at the whole picture.

I stand by my comment that you are a moron. You said yourself that they would have had to redesing the chassis for a bigger motor when we all know the v8 fits in there. Nice back tracking.

Bottom line is BMW currently makes a non-M car that even the top of the pack Toyota cars cant compete with.

[Mike Lowrey]

I stand by my comment that you are a moron. You said yourself that they would have had to redesing the chassis for a bigger motor when we all know the v8 fits in there. Nice back tracking.

Bottom line is BMW currently makes a non-M car that even the top of the pack Toyota cars cant compete with.

Hey Retard! Do you fucking understand the difference between and I6 and a V8? Holy Fucking Shit! A larger I6 will not fit! A V8 is actually shorter in length than an I6!

[tron]

haha nooo way.

werd!!

[ISAtlanta300]

LOL..spoken like a true Lexus owner....

If you're content with your overpriced,underpowered Toyota, more power to ya.


:goodjob:


At the end of the day a Lexus is a Toyota and a BMW is a BMW.....:tongue1:

OH wow.... gee you got me there.. i guess... :rolleyes:

[BobbyFresco]

OH wow.... gee you got me there.. i guess... :rolleyes:


Truth hurts, huh?:thinking:

[The Green Monster]

Hmmm, so it took twin turbos to reach the performance level of an NA and that is some kind of "accomplishment"???? What's going to happen when Lexus comes out with their own "turbo" version of the IS????? ;)


That's exactly what I was thinking :goodjob:


BMW'll change to twin t88's lol

[Jaimecbr900]

That's exactly what I was thinking :goodjob:


BMW'll change to twin t88's lol

It looks like atleast one person got it. :goodjob:

Too bad it falls on deaf ears when it comes to BMW diehards. :rolleyes:

[1SICKLEX]

True, bmw did factory turbo earlier, but they were also the first to shun them and go back to NA. Supposedly turbos were not condusive to the "driving experience". Toyota seemed to favor turbo charging more. I find it funny now that the shoe is on the other foot, toyota lovers are bitching. The IS350 was just redesigned a few years back and the 3 series is now just being redesigned. WHile they fit in the same class, they achieve power in two different ways. Its apparent BMW did their homework here and made an excellent car that makes power well. Just give it to em. THe IS350 is also great though, just in a different way.
Absolutely correct and GREAT POINT. BMW made many mentions of "never going to FI" and "its not pure" thus they went with a V-10 in the new M5 for instance.
Thing is AMG and Benz were (And still are) kicking their ass with power with superchargers and turbos. the funny thing is they now have a new 6.3 N/A engine.


Yes let's go back even farther into the 1970's when BMW came out with a fantastic little car called the 2002. I'm just saying that BMW did it's factory turbo fun before Toyota did, to my knowledge. Not counting racing engines or any twin turbo setups, just a single turbo, but wtf do I know I'm a noob. Anyways BMW ftw.
The 2002 is legendary but that car has nothing to do with the cars being discussed now. My point was
Toyota/Lexus 3.0 TT makes 320hp
BMW 3.0 TT (using Mitshbishi turbos) makes 300hp

We have seen the modability of the 2JZ, easy 600hp street cars, 1,100 dyno monsters.

I am not taking anything away from BMW engines, they traditionally have made fantastic engines.

[1SICKLEX]

I stand by my comment that you are a moron. You said yourself that they would have had to redesing the chassis for a bigger motor when we all know the v8 fits in there. Nice back tracking.

Bottom line is BMW currently makes a non-M car that even the top of the pack Toyota cars cant compete with.
Just because something FITS does not mean it was meant to go there. I am sure the balance is pretty off and a lot of chassis strengthening had to be done to fit those bigger engines.

The 3 comes with a I-4 or even diesels in Europe. You simply don't stuff a V-8 or V-10 in there unless you want to twist the entire chassis. You have to mod the entire car to do it RIGHT.

[jfman]

Hey Retard! Do you fucking understand the difference between and I6 and a V8? Holy Fucking Shit! A larger I6 will not fit! A V8 is actually shorter in length than an I6!

BMW could fit a 330 hp I6 in the e46 chassis but no way they could have done it to the E92? You are a moron. Do you think they put that motor in there because they had to? What a douch bag.

BMW knows how to make some kick ass NA engines. 5 years ago they had an NA I6 with 330hp and now they have a relatively small V8 that makes 440hp. Now they make one FI engine they put in a non-M car that makes 300hp and all the rice lovers flame on BMW. Fuck 'em, BMW did it because they are in the business of making cars that are a complete blast to drive. Toyota is in the business of making grocery getters and a few luxury cars. They havent made a true sports car in a while. BMW has never quit making cars that have cult followings, cars that people dream about, cars that are desired and hated on for the same reasons. Look at the BMW fleet and look at Toyota's fleet, then you can see what both companies are about.

[jfman]

Just because something FITS does not mean it was meant to go there. I am sure the balance is pretty off and a lot of chassis strengthening had to be done to fit those bigger engines.

The 3 comes with a I-4 or even diesels in Europe. You simply don't stuff a V-8 or V-10 in there unless you want to twist the entire chassis. You have to mod the entire car to do it RIGHT.

Gatorfag was implying that they went FI because they did not know how to install a bigger NA I6 without "redesinging the chassis" What a moron.


Just another tidbit on why BMW put twin turbos in the 335. They found themselves beat out by Lexus in power and speed and needed to add more power. The existing chassis could not accomadate a larger displacement motor in inline form. Their only choice to make a quick imporvement was to add the turbos. It was either that or redesign the chassis. :goodjob:

[CleanCL]

BMW was already planning to put a V8 in the M3
with 420 to the crank :D

[CleanCL]

BMW could fit a 330 hp I6 in the e46 chassis but no way they could have done it to the E92? You are a moron. Do you think they put that motor in there because they had to? What a douch bag.

BMW knows how to make some kick ass NA engines. 5 years ago they had an NA I6 with 330hp and now they have a relatively small V8 that makes 440hp. Now they make one FI engine they put in a non-M car that makes 300hp and all the rice lovers flame on BMW. Fuck 'em, BMW did it because they are in the business of making cars that are a complete blast to drive. Toyota is in the business of making grocery getters and a few luxury cars. They havent made a true sports car in a while. BMW has never quit making cars that have cult followings, cars that people dream about, cars that are desired and hated on for the same reasons. Look at the BMW fleet and look at Toyota's fleet, then you can see what both companies are about.

wow I couldnt have said any of that better, he's 100% correct on all of that. +1

Any one of BMWs line up could be classified as a sports car/sport luxury

[CleanCL]

Absolutely correct and GREAT POINT. BMW made many mentions of "never going to FI" and "its not pure" thus they went with a V-10 in the new M5 for instance.
Thing is AMG and Benz were (And still are) kicking their ass with power with superchargers and turbos. the funny thing is they now have a new 6.3 N/A engine.
what?? um... NO benz isnt kicking anything but their own ass... the 4 door m5 fucks the amg cl63 in the ass, you dont even need to look at the m6 which rips the SLR a new asshole. benz cant top anything bmw has done.:tongue1: another good example, take the top of the line C class and compare it to a 328 non sport... bmw still out performs and out handles.

"were and still are" = :lmfao:

benz = luxury
bmw = sport you just cant compare the two

[CleanCL]

Just because something FITS does not mean it was meant to go there. I am sure the balance is pretty off and a lot of chassis strengthening had to be done to fit those bigger engines.


bmw is one of the most balanced companies that produces vehicles...they dont put something on the road unless the weight ratio is off less than 47/53 - 50/50. Weight ratio is almost perfect.

As for the new M3 (as well as the M6), the reason for the carbon fiber ROOF is to lower the center of gravity even MORE, making it more balance, thus making it handle even better.

[BlkCD5]

Originally posted by CleanCL
Any one of BMWs line up could be classified as a sports car/sport luxury

Bmw X3, X5 :thinking: Suv. Also I still can't believe the term "rice" got thrown into this thread. I wish some people would understand that Bmw can be undercut by a "lesser" brand. Again, look at my previous post comparing Bmw and lexus and that pretty much it up.

[OneSlow5pt0]

what?? um... NO benz isnt kicking anything but their own ass... the 4 door m5 fucks the amg cl63 in the ass, you dont even need to look at the m6 which rips the SLR a new asshole. benz cant top anything bmw has done.:tongue1: another good example, take the top of the line C class and compare it to a 328 non sport... bmw still out performs and out handles.

"were and still are" = :lmfao:

benz = luxury
bmw = sport you just cant compare the two

i hope that was a joke

also SLK will kill the Z4........and SL65 AMG are bad mo fo

[OneSlow5pt0]

BMW M6

0-60 in 4.6 sec
top speed governered to 155mph

SLR Mclaren
0-60 in 3.5 sec
top speed of 210mph


so how in the world does a M6 whoop a SLR?

[1SICKLEX]

what?? um... NO benz isnt kicking anything but their own ass... the 4 door m5 fucks the amg cl63 in the ass, you dont even need to look at the m6 which rips the SLR a new asshole. benz cant top anything bmw has done.:tongue1: another good example, take the top of the line C class and compare it to a 328 non sport... bmw still out performs and out handles.

"were and still are" = :lmfao:

benz = luxury
bmw = sport you just cant compare the two
Kiddo, you sound silly. The M5 might outhandle a AMG car but we are talking about power. The M5 makes 500hp peak but only 380 lbs of torque. The E55 made 450hp or so and over 500lbs of torque. The E63 makes about the same hp but more torque than a M5.

Don't get me started on AMG S65 or SL 65 etc cars. We are talking TWIN TURBO V-12s with over 700lbs of torque.

The M6 cannot hold a candle to the SLR. I almost cannot take you serious.

The SLR produces 617hp and 575 lbs or torque. It is a SUPER car. The M6 is not. End of discussion.

[1SICKLEX]

bmw is one of the most balanced companies that produces vehicles...they dont put something on the road unless the weight ratio is off less than 47/53 - 50/50. Weight ratio is almost perfect.

As for the new M3 (as well as the M6), the reason for the carbon fiber ROOF is to lower the center of gravity even MORE, making it more balance, thus making it handle even better.
I agree with you, thus BMW does NOT make a V-10 3 series. The aftermarket shoehorned that engine in there.
The new M3 V-8 is more compact and lighter than the old M5 V-8 and M3 I-6. Its quite a marvel. I am in no way putting BMWs down, they are fabulous cars.

[1SICKLEX]

Bmw X3, X5 :thinking: Suv. Also I still can't believe the term "rice" got thrown into this thread. I wish some people would understand that Bmw can be undercut by a "lesser" brand. Again, look at my previous post comparing Bmw and lexus and that pretty much it up.
Americans are fooled by BMW here. In Europe you can get super slow I-4 3 series cars AND 5 series cars. There is a 520 in Europe that makes 159 hp, lol.

You can get a 6 cylinder 6 and 7 series as well. BMW to protect their "image" does not sell those cars here.

Now we get the Toyota priced and Corolla competition 1-series, a lil hatchback.

Then check this crap out.


http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/BMW/Spy_Shots/minicar/bmw_minicar_main01.jpg



There have been numerous reports pertaining to the possibility of BMW building a new model positioned below the 1-series hatch that’ll share its underpinnings with the current Mini. Not only would the car be the first FWD BMW, it would also be cheapest as it’s rumored to cost less than the aforementioned Mini.

Part of the reason for BMW considering such a model is the mounting environmental awareness that’s spreading across Europe. A new, low-emissions minicar would help reduce BMW’s fleet average emissions levels in light of the new CO2 standards being pushed by the EU and it’d also give it a better standing against similar superminis being developed by rival brand Audi and to a less extent VW.

Though we highly doubt BMW designers would style the car after the striking Concept CS as this rendering suggests, any model wearing the Propeller Badge would likely feature the trademark kidney grille. According to earlier reports, development has been carried out on the new model although final production plans are yet to be confirmed.

If given the go-ahead, production would likely be outsourced to Magna Steyr but the engines and drivetrain would be built by BMW at plants in Germany. How the new model will live up to the ‘Ultimate Driving Machine’ ethos, however, is anyone’s guess.

http://www.motorauthority.com/cars/bmw/preview-2010-bmw-minicar/


http://www.motorauthority.com/wp-content/uploads/BMW/odds/2007/BMW_RFK.jpg

Prevew: 2009 BMW F5

Posted on Tuesday 28 August 2007

BMW is currently developing two new models based on its 3 and 5-series sedans, which will be taking the luxury brand into new territory. The new models are best described as MPV-wagons, but unlike the current Touring models the new cars will feature a taller ride-height and high roof to maximize interior space. Though the cars’ names are yet to be finalized, earlier reports suggested the new lineup would adopt ‘F’ badging with the two new cars being called the F3 and F5.

The F5 is expected to go head-to-head with Mercedes-Benz’ R-class but given its poor sales we have to question why BMW thinks the luxury-MPV segment is worthy of competing in. The smaller F3, meanwhile, is designed to rival Mercedes’ B-class.

This new rendering is a good indication of the final design of the larger F5 variant. Engine options will remain the same as its donor 5-series sedan but don’t expect anything bigger than a six-cylinder to feature.

The expected launch date for the F5 is in mid-2009, with the smaller F3 set to appear one year later. However, before we see any of the F models, BMW will launch its all new X6 crossover due in the second half of next year.via motorauthority

[OneSlow5pt0]

lol.....the front looks mean though,then it turns into a yaris

[FlyingStroke240]

BMW FTW. I can't never afford one.I'm too poor.

see ya 240l0ve

[andyman]

Fuck 'em, BMW did it because they are in the business of making cars that are a complete blast to drive. Toyota is in the business of making grocery getters and a few luxury cars. They havent made a true sports car in a while. BMW has never quit making cars that have cult followings, cars that people dream about, cars that are desired and hated on for the same reasons. Look at the BMW fleet and look at Toyota's fleet, then you can see what both companies are about.

uhhhh.... yeah, bmw cares about the people and make cars cuz they're "fun to drive." good one. :blah:

bmw makes cars that people dream about... i guess they do. its like louis vuitton, coach, dg... they're expensive. poor people try to look rich and buy expensive things.. same concept applies here. bmw makes cars people dream about and pull a 2nd mortgage to pay. toyota makes cars that people buy, because they are known reliability/affordability/service.

as far as i can see, bmw is in the business of making people THINK they're driving a nice luxury car by adding $10k to the sticker price. sure they're nice cars, but i'd rather pay $25 for an oil change than $50.

and free maintenance crap is fool's excuse. they overprice parts/labor. THEN, they say, "hey lets give this dumbass free maintenance for 5 years/50000 miles, i bet they'll think they're getting a deal"

cliffnotes: lexus > bmw

[_Christian_]

BMW could fit a 330 hp I6 in the e46 chassis but no way they could have done it to the E92? You are a moron. Do you think they put that motor in there because they had to? What a douch bag.

BMW knows how to make some kick ass NA engines. 5 years ago they had an NA I6 with 330hp and now they have a relatively small V8 that makes 440hp. Now they make one FI engine they put in a non-M car that makes 300hp and all the rice lovers flame on BMW. Fuck 'em, BMW did it because they are in the business of making cars that are a complete blast to drive. Toyota is in the business of making grocery getters and a few luxury cars. They havent made a true sports car in a while. BMW has never quit making cars that have cult followings, cars that people dream about, cars that are desired and hated on for the same reasons. Look at the BMW fleet and look at Toyota's fleet, then you can see what both companies are about.
:yes:+2. BMW has proven itself with powerful n/a motors. They could have easily made it n/a. This argument is retarded. Funny how people who would suck a 2jz's dick, hate the bmw for being a twin turbo.

[CleanCL]

Bmw X3, X5 :thinking: Suv. Also I still can't believe the term "rice" got thrown into this thread. I wish some people would understand that Bmw can be undercut by a "lesser" brand. Again, look at my previous post comparing Bmw and lexus and that pretty much it up.
Have you ever driven an X5 4.8, E53 or the new body style?:D

It outruns/out performs/out handles the Porsche Cayenne Turbo:goodjob:

[CleanCL]

Americans are fooled by BMW here. In Europe you can get super slow I-4 3 series cars AND 5 series cars. There is a 520 in Europe that makes 159 hp, lol.
Sorry man, but its a 518. In Euro they arent as much of a highline car company, completely different market here. However, that doesnt mean that a 535 performs differently here as it does over there.

As for those pictures you posted, they're just concepts and more than likely wont look anything near that...go take a look at the BMW CS concept.

[BlkCD5]

I actually think its odd/neat in a way. Some would never think Bmw would go to FI as a means of power. I mean look at Acura putting out its first turbocharged suv, when their company lineup consists of mainly N/A motors.



Originally posted by CleanCLHave you ever driven an X5 4.8, E53 or the new body style?

It outruns/out performs/out handles the Porsche Cayenne Turbo

No, i don't think the Dealership or owner would trust me in one of those :devil: :D . I heard the X5 does pack a punch, although I wouldn't classify a suv in a sports type category.

[CleanCL]

man that thing is sporty as shit.

[1SICKLEX]

Have you ever driven an X5 4.8, E53 or the new body style?:D

It outruns/out performs/out handles the Porsche Cayenne Turbo:goodjob:
I disagree. It handles extremely well for a SUV but there is no better handling or more powerful SUV than a Cayenne Turbo S.

520hp and every expert states no SUV handles better.

Porsche> BMW + Lexus when it comes to sport. :)

[OneSlow5pt0]

I disagree. It handles extremely well for a SUV but there is no better handling or more powerful SUV than a Cayenne Turbo S.

520hp and every expert states no SUV handles better.

Porsche> BMW + Lexus when it comes to sport. :)

x2..porsche cayenne is the shit dizzle

but id probbly take a Benz suv over a BMW

[1SICKLEX]

x2..porsche cayenne is the shit dizzle

but id probbly take a Benz suv over a BMW
The AMG ML and G wagon are beasts. We had a guy in a AMG Kleeman G-wagon at our SELOC/GA3S drag day and he was running high 11s in the 1/4!!!

[d993s]

I disagree. It handles extremely well for a SUV but there is no better handling or more powerful SUV than a Cayenne Turbo S.

520hp and every expert states no SUV handles better.

Porsche> BMW + Lexus when it comes to sport. :)

Agreed.

[OneSlow5pt0]

damn.......

[Jaimecbr900]

Tell 'em Mike.....:goodjob:

[BlkCD5]

Are we done yet?

[d993s]

Are we done yet?

No...............








Lexus= BMW wannabe

Lexus= GAY

BMW= sets the standard in this class

Lexus= tries to keep up with BMW, but fails

Lexus IS= was brought out to compete with the 3 series :lmfao:











I can add more. Ok, nevermind.

[d993s]

Will the Japs EVER set the standard???
Even the new Nissan GTR is a competitor for the 911TT.

[OneSlow5pt0]

No...............








Lexus= BMW wannabe

Lexus= GAY

BMW= sets the standard in this class

Lexus= tries to keep up with BMW, but fails

Lexus IS= was brought out to compete with the 3 series :lmfao:











I can add more. Ok, nevermind.

u forgat benz > bmw

[OneSlow5pt0]

Will the Japs EVER set the standard???
Even the new Nissan GTR is a competitor for the 911TT.

idk,i always hold euro over japan and america

[d993s]

u forgat benz > bmw

Lately, yeah, but mainly because of their higher HP.
Let's hope quality improves to what Mercedes was until the early 1990's.

[OneSlow5pt0]

Lately, yeah, but mainly because of their higher HP.
Let's hope quality improves to what Mercedes was until the early 1990's.

yea,90s...was BMW's time,now Benz putting alot more power in their cars

kinda what cadillac is doin for american cars....i am loving what caddie is doin now

[Mike Lowrey]

BMW could fit a 330 hp I6 in the e46 chassis but no way they could have done it to the E92? You are a moron. Do you think they put that motor in there because they had to? What a douch bag.

It would not give them the performance they needed to one-up the Lexus motor. The M3 had a 3.2l I6 with 333hp and 262tq. And in the 3415 lb M3 went from 0-60 in 5s with a 1/4 mile of around 13.6s. The IS350 had a 3.5l V6 with 306hp (*under the old measure of hp would have been around 320-330hp) and 277tq. The 3500 lb Lexus went from 0-60 in 5.1s and the 1/4 mile in around 13.7s. Putting the 3.2l motor from the M3 would not have gotten the performance that BMW was looking for, hence my comment for the choice was to go FI.



Gatorfag was implying that they went FI because they did not know how to install a bigger NA I6 without "redesinging the chassis" What a moron.

Read above shit-stain. The M3 motor was not enough. I have personally run M3's in my IS350 and run side-by-side with them. The performance is very, very close. At the track, I have run 13.4's with a stock IS350. The 335 with the 3.2l engine would not have been enough to beat IS350 in power.

[Mike Lowrey]

Any one of BMWs line up could be classified as a sports car/sport luxury

Let us not cross words here. This comment is incorrect. BMW makes sports sedans mostly with a few "sports cars" as well.

[OneSlow5pt0]

only BMW sports car ,that i know is the Z series

[1SICKLEX]

Will the Japs EVER set the standard???
Even the new Nissan GTR is a competitor for the 911TT.
The 911 Turbo is a 110k plus car
The GT-R will be 70k
Not bad
Do I need to list every comparison a Japanese car beat the Germans? Don't be so biased b/c it makes you look like you need to read your avatar.

[jdogg319]

is350 enough said

[CleanCL]

I disagree. It handles extremely well for a SUV but there is no better handling or more powerful SUV than a Cayenne Turbo S.

520hp and every expert states no SUV handles better.

Porsche> BMW + Lexus when it comes to sport. :)
thats why I didnt say the Turbo S, turbo S gets it owns the 4.8

Cayenne Turbo S > X5 4.8
Cayenne, Cayenne S, Cayenne Turbo < X5 4.8

[CleanCL]

its interesting how close the pole is.

[IndianStig]

Nowing the potential of the 335i and still getting the rush I get out of spirited driving, a nice 6 speed manual 335i would be my pick. However, if I just wanted a kick ass stylish commuter, I'd take the IS350.

Two kick ass companies in a huge rivlary FTW!

[superboost]

Nowing the potential of the 335i and still getting the rush I get out of spirited driving, a nice 6 speed manual 335i would be my pick. However, if I just wanted a kick ass stylish commuter, I'd take the IS350.

Two kick ass companies in a huge rivlary FTW!

Very true. When you have rivalries like that, only the customer wins.

[GGPIS3]

didn't read this whole thread, but here's my .02



performance wise, the 335i wins.

everything else wise, the is350 wins.


the 335i is a great platform, or so it seems, if you want a classy, sporty vehicle with good performance and is easily upgradeable.. for only 1,200-1,500 you can get up to 350 rwhp and over 400 rwtq.. thats not bad at all. one thing i hate about the 335i is the terrible placement of the cupholders... i done broke my knee on them and broke the passenger one on my friends car...

i ofcourse love the IS350... but i hate that its not offered in a manual and the performance side of the aftermarket world has yet to really offer anything really substantial.

price is another issue.. i hear that people are paying over 60K in california for the 335i while the IS350 is now being heavily discounted.

reliability... bar none... lexus is the shit!

service... bmw can't touch lexus service.. they dont even come close.

[kingkong]

I would go with the Lexus just because it is N/A
think about the IS350 with a twin turbo

[BlkCD5]

Sadly to say lexus fucks up by not offering the top of the line models in manual. Same thing with benz's as well. Correct me if im wrong, but when the IS300 debuted, it only came in auto/sport shift, while the 3 series always had the manual as an option.

[lsxtreme]

I'll take a Lexus over a BMW any day.


+1

[b16ftw]

hmm... bmw ftw?

[DinanM3atl]

I read through random parts of the thread.

1. Cupholders? WTF this is a "sports sedan" shootout. Who the fuck cares about cup holders. BMW builds CARS not restaurants.

2. IS-F what? BMW M3 will be a 4 door. 400hp V8. It will be better than the IS-F and won't be ugly as fuck

3. What does it mean BMW can't touch Lexus service?

4. BMW is the ultimate driving machine for a reason. When someone makes a new sports coupe what do they compare it to? Oh yah the M3. When someone makes a new sports sedan what does it get compared to? Oh yah the 3 series. Do you think there is a reason for this?

BMW makes drivers cars for the driver. The dash is angled towards the driver. The seats the gauge placements and controls. For the driver. Rear seat leg room? Who gives a fuck. The passengers aren't driving. If a car is not offered in manual it is not a sports car. That is just weak. You used to even be able to get a manual 5 and 7 series back in the day.

There is no comparison.

[DinanM3atl]

u forgat benz > bmw

At what?


Benz has ALWAYS been a Luxury Performance Car

BMW has ALWAYS been a Performance Luxury Car


If you want Luxury with some juice you get a benz. If you want a car with some juice that has some luxury you get a BMW. It is obvious because BMW offers manuals.

[OneSlow5pt0]

At what?


Benz has ALWAYS been a Luxury Performance Car

BMW has ALWAYS been a Performance Luxury Car


If you want Luxury with some juice you get a benz. If you want a car with some juice that has some luxury you get a BMW. It is obvious because BMW offers manuals.

where's BMW's supercar?

AMG > M power

[BlkCD5]

originally posted by DinanM3atl
BMW is the ultimate driving machine

not trying to start shit, but this is an opinionated statement even though its their motto. Lets just say the comparison is just a bit twisted. Would you even give lexus credit for trying? Did anyone read my comparison between the two companies? Seems like most Bmw owners are more hostile towards a car that can potentially undercut them in some aspects.



Originally posted by DinanM3atl
What does it mean BMW can't touch Lexus service?

Meaning customer satisfaction. I believe they're reports on this.

[1SICKLEX]

I read through random parts of the thread.

1. Cupholders? WTF this is a "sports sedan" shootout. Who the fuck cares about cup holders. BMW builds CARS not restaurants.
Then what the fuck is I-drive?

2. IS-F what? BMW M3 will be a 4 door. 400hp V8. It will be better than the IS-F and won't be ugly as fuck

3. What does it mean BMW can't touch Lexus service?

4. BMW is the ultimate driving machine for a reason. When someone makes a new sports coupe what do they compare it to? Oh yah the M3. When someone makes a new sports sedan what does it get compared to? Oh yah the 3 series. Do you think there is a reason for this?

BMW makes drivers cars for the driver. The dash is angled towards the driver. The seats the gauge placements and controls. For the driver. Rear seat leg room? Who gives a fuck. The passengers aren't driving. If a car is not offered in manual it is not a sports car. That is just weak. You used to even be able to get a manual 5 and 7 series back in the day.

There is no comparison.
1. THen what is I-drive? Why is there a knob instead of buttons. Why does it take 5 hours to figure out how to raise the volume on the radio?
2. BMW's M division is legendary and rightfully so. I love M cars. Lexus has a F division after only 18 years on the market. Its their first attempt. The M1 and E30 M3 were not perfect either. Give them props for trying, Infiniti nor Acura have a division like this.
3.THey can't. BMW service is awful, don't try to refute that, you would sound like an idiot. Its a given. THey have NEVER COME CLOSE to winning any customer satisfaction awards. Service is not their strong point.
4. Yes, BMWs are great when they WANT TO BE. Stock BMWs with 5" wheels handle okay and MOST of them are sold that way. Porsche destroys any BMW. They do make great sports sedans, no one can take that away from BMW. THey are fantastic to drive and own.

Oh and welcome to 2002 with the 745. NO BMW DASHES ARE NOW ANGLED TO THE DRIVER. They are now very styled with flat dashes with double humps when they have NAV. WHAT are you talking about? They did it to cut costs, its easier to build and cheaper to build these new dashes than the angled ones.

I LOVE the old BMW angled dashes and sad they lost it. Damn Bangle.
Old BMW interiors
http://www.kindel.com/bmw/album/Charlie's%20'95%20540i%20Sport/_lowres/540i%20Sport%20Interior%201.jpg
NEW ones
http://www.autocult.com.au/img/gallery/CARmageddon1433.jpg

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2006/2006-BMW-7-Series-Interior-1280x960.jpg

Funny but the Lexus IS and GS interiors are angled to the driver. lol

http://www.lexus.com/lexus-share/images/gallery/models/IS/photos/interior/g_int4.jpg

http://www.lexus.com/lexus-share/images/gallery/models/GSh/photos/interior/g_int6.jpg


Make no mistake about it, I own and love Lexus but I also love BMW. Great cars and they have made Lexus a better company. I will own a M car someday. Please post logically and both brands and not the ridiculous BMW sucks/Lexus sucks childish banter.

[BobbyFresco]

I read through random parts of the thread.

1. Cupholders? WTF this is a "sports sedan" shootout. Who the fuck cares about cup holders. BMW builds CARS not restaurants.

2. IS-F what? BMW M3 will be a 4 door. 400hp V8. It will be better than the IS-F and won't be ugly as fuck

3. What does it mean BMW can't touch Lexus service?

4. BMW is the ultimate driving machine for a reason. When someone makes a new sports coupe what do they compare it to? Oh yah the M3. When someone makes a new sports sedan what does it get compared to? Oh yah the 3 series. Do you think there is a reason for this?

BMW makes drivers cars for the driver. The dash is angled towards the driver. The seats the gauge placements and controls. For the driver. Rear seat leg room? Who gives a fuck. The passengers aren't driving. If a car is not offered in manual it is not a sports car. That is just weak. You used to even be able to get a manual 5 and 7 series back in the day.

There is no comparison.


Will rep when I can...
Well said....:goodjob:

[Mike Lowrey]

3. What does it mean BMW can't touch Lexus service?

Don't be stupid. There is no contest here. They are not evey in the same universe with respect to service and reliability. :goodjob:


BMW makes drivers cars for the driver. The dash is angled towards the driver. The seats the gauge placements and controls. For the driver. Rear seat leg room? Who gives a fuck. The passengers aren't driving. If a car is not offered in manual it is not a sports car. That is just weak. You used to even be able to get a manual 5 and 7 series back in the day.

I really wish people would stop trying to say that BMW's are sports cars. Most BMW vehicles are sport sedans (i.e. sporty sedan). There is nothing "sports car" about a 3 series.



There is no comparison.

Actually there IS a comparison. I have always wondered why the BMW crowd got so defensive when the IS350 came out. The IS350 is some areas is better than the BMW and in other areas it is not as good. Competition is good for all consumers.



Message to BMW 3-series nut-swingers:

Your car is not the ultimate vehicle. It is not the best car in the world. It is not a sports car.

[DinanM3atl]

where's BMW's supercar?

AMG > M power

When McLaren was motor shopping for the F1 I am pretty sure they ended up with a BMW ;)

They also had the M1 way back in the day. Since when do you need a "supercar" to be a top car manufacturer?


Don't be stupid. There is no contest here. They are not evey in the same universe with respect to service and reliability. :goodjob:

I will have to give you this. New BMWs suck for reliability. I don't own anything past 99 and will never own anything past 04 or 05 when I get a new M3 sometime soon.




I really wish people would stop trying to say that BMW's are sports cars. Most BMW vehicles are sport sedans (i.e. sporty sedan). There is nothing "sports car" about a 3 series.

How are they not? Please explain.



Actually there IS a comparison. I have always wondered why the BMW crowd got so defensive when the IS350 came out. The IS350 is some areas is better than the BMW and in other areas it is not as good. Competition is good for all consumers.

The BMW is better where the "sports sedan" matters and not as good where it doesn't. Cup Holders(My e30 doesn't even have them at all and if you weigh more than 200 lbs you can't fit in the sports seat.) Rear Leg Room? Trunk Space?


Message to BMW 3-series nut-swingers:

Your car is not the ultimate vehicle. It is not the best car in the world. It is not a sports car.

My m3 is pretty damn good. It has 0-60 times comparable with Large American V8s. It can out handle many cars triple its price. 97 it won best handling car at any price. Beat a 355, viper, prelude SH(this won for under 20 or 25 i think) and an NSX(OMG NO WAY?!?!?!) It is a drivers race stock verse stock to a NSX.

There is a REASON mags compare new cars to M3s and 3 series. There is a reason why when lexus wanted to make a sports sedan they tried to better the 3 series... Because it is the best.


I know I come off like a douche bag and that is fine. The problem is 7/8th of you guys have never driven an M3 or a 3 series and yet you call me a nut swinger. Well drive the car like it is meant to be driven and then make a comparison. Come drive an M3 at Road Atlanta and see what the car is really about. Don't arm chair debate on the internet through here say and call me a nut swinger.

[OneSlow5pt0]

i like BMW,hell my dad drives a 328,i drive it all the time.........but it is the most uncomfortable car to drive,drivers car my ass....my miata,RX-7,and celica are all more comfortable..

id rather drive my slow celica,than his faster 328

[DinanM3atl]

your on crack sir

[ISAtlanta300]

...nutswinger.... (LOL)

[Mike Lowrey]

My m3 is pretty damn good. It has 0-60 times comparable with Large American V8s. It can out handle many cars triple its price. 97 it won best handling car at any price. Beat a 355, viper, prelude SH(this won for under 20 or 25 i think) and an NSX(OMG NO WAY?!?!?!) It is a drivers race stock verse stock to a NSX.

I call BS. When did the M3 "outhandle" an NSX? LOL What were the criteria? Where is the data? This is funny. Face it, the M3 is a "sports sedan" NOT a sports car. :rolleyes:



I know I come off like a douche bag and that is fine. The problem is 7/8th of you guys have never driven an M3 or a 3 series and yet you call me a nut swinger. Well drive the car like it is meant to be driven and then make a comparison. Come drive an M3 at Road Atlanta and see what the car is really about. Don't arm chair debate on the internet through here say and call me a nut swinger.

OK. When is the next BMW day @ Road Atlanta? I would love to run that track. :D

[DinanM3atl]

Haha. First off you are retarded. The m3 is a spots coupe first and foremost. It was offered for only 3 years as a sedan. So calling it a "sports sedan" is stupid. Just now they are going to have a sedan version. And if you don't think an M3 is a sports car I don't know what is wrong with you. What is the criteria for a "sports car" then?

The NSX is not all that great. It is not that fast and barely lighter(by 20 lbs) to an M3 from 99 and my car wasn't designed as "super light weight"

http://www.m3zine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=14&Itemid=45


Scroll down. Here are some "excerpts for you"

"The M3 possesses uncanny roadgoing ability. This is the most-agile car here. The steering eagerly bites into corners and is alive with feel. "Constantly talking to my fingers," wrote Csere. It latches onto a line in corners as if on a mission from God. Webster: "Rolls gracefully into curves at a constant rate and goes right where you point it."

.... So, what's the best-handling car at any price? ...It's an eight-horn salute to the BMW M3 as "the best-handling car."

http://www.m3forum.com/articles/car_and_driver_nelson_sept97.gif

Hmmm M3 was faster in EVERY Corner. And it was actually an NSX-T. Wow 6 mphs faster in 1 corner.

There is a link to the whole article if you want to read it. Whicah car should I buy. A used M3 for 15 or a used NSX for 50.

[OneSlow5pt0]

now ur on crack to say the M3 is best handling car for the $$

[DinanM3atl]

Am I? Car and Driver said it not me ;) But thanks.


I do love how no one has chimed in and said "Yah I drove an M3 and was unimpressed." Again, 7/8th of you have never even driven one yet you bash on them. How they are "overpriced" and I can beat one with less money in my "car x".

Go drive one. Buy one and mod it and drive it and THEN you can make an opinion.

I drove an NSX. Unimpressed. For 90K new you got ripped the fuck off. Buy a Porsche 911 turbo for that kind of money.

[OneSlow5pt0]

also the only BMW thats a sports car is the Z series

[OneSlow5pt0]

Am I? Car and Driver said it not me ;) But thanks.

guess Elises cant turn corners:rolleyes:

[DinanM3atl]

also the only BMW thats a sports car is the Z series

Define sports car. You sound like a retard.


guess Elises cant turn corners:rolleyes:

No elise in the US in 97 but nice try. Work yourself deeper into the hole.

[OneSlow5pt0]

Define sports car. You sound like a retard.



No elise in the US in 97 but nice try. Work yourself deeper into the hole.

i can safely say ur more biased then any hondahead on this site.

a M3 = sports coupe and sports sedan

[OneSlow5pt0]

also do some research

elise came out in 96

[DinanM3atl]

i can safely say ur more biased then any hondahead on this site.

a M3 = sports coupe and sports sedan

Ok dude. Quit dodging the questions.

1. What defines a sports car?

2. What makes an M3 not a sports car?

3. Have you driven an M3?

[DinanM3atl]

also do some research

elise came out in 96

Really. Where would Car and Driver get that car here in the states in 96? Go down to a Lotus dealer and buy one.

You really are digging your hole deeper and deeper.

[DeutscheBAG!]

Ok dude. Quit dodging the questions.

1. What defines a sports car?

2. What makes an M3 not a sports car?

3. Have you driven an M3?
my turn up to bat.

most of you that know me, know that i'll bash BMW up and down in every single way possible.( im an AUDI nut)

but, i got to give them their props..the M3 was one of 3 cars i driven that gave me one of the biggest grins on my face. i had the oppurtunity to drive a friends e36 on a mountain runs years back and seen what they can really do on some serious roads when i lived in germany.

the m3 is one of the cars and apparently a lot of you have proved it in this thread by your arrogance, is a car that many strive to be.

and to think, this started off as a 335 v IS350 but now, its japan vs.germany.
(who in their right mind considers a 335 german muscle?)

theyre both great cars but now since were on the subect of bmw vs lexus. i must say, although i loves lexus, they been kind of bland in styling and when driving..
people just don't think( at least in the states) of lexus as anything but sporty..( putting on my flame suit)but as pure luxury.( before u bite my head off about lexuses(lexi) racing etc..remember, your average lexus owner has no friggin clue)

BMW is WORLD-known for its motorsports divisions and its luxury cars..even morons that really dont care for sportscar and racing know what a M car is.

so, on that note..let me get a lil more off course that this thread, the IS-F looks impressive for a 100k toyota( sorry but the average yank that will be able to afford this car is gonna overlook this car if its not badge as a lexus.it'll help them sleep better at night ;) ) like i said, the IS-F looks impressive but at least let the girl get on the floor to see if she can dance.

see some of you in the ballroom in 2009

sincerely,
a guy that still will continue to trash BMW's :D

[ISAtlanta300]

my turn up to bat.

most of you that know me, know that i'll bash BMW up and down in every single way possible.( im an AUDI nut)

but, i got to give them their props..the M3 was one of 3 cars i driven that gave me one of the biggest grins on my face. i had the oppurtunity to drive a friends e36 on a mountain runs years back and seen what they can really do on some serious roads when i lived in germany.

the m3 is one of the cars and apparently a lot of you have proved it in this thread by your arrogance, is a car that many strive to be.

and to think, this started off as a 335 v IS350 but now, its japan vs.germany.
(who in their right mind considers a 335 german muscle?)

theyre both great cars but now since were on the subect of bmw vs lexus. i must say, although i loves lexus, they been kind of bland in styling and when driving..
people just don't think( at least in the states) of lexus as anything but sporty..( putting on my flame suit)but as pure luxury.( before u bite my head off about lexuses(lexi) racing etc..remember, your average lexus owner has no friggin clue)

BMW is WORLD-known for its motorsports divisions and its luxury cars..even morons that really dont care for sportscar and racing know what a M car is.

so, on that note..let me get a lil more off course that this thread, the IS-F looks impressive for a 100k toyota( sorry but the average yank that will be able to afford this car is gonna overlook this car if its not badge as a lexus.it'll help them sleep better at night ;) ) like i said, the IS-F looks impressive but at least let the girl get on the floor to see if she can dance.

see some of you in the ballroom in 2009

sincerely,
a guy that still will continue to trash BMW's :D

I've got to give you props for one of the more serious posts in here. Very nice opinion without the arrogance and bashing of brands.

However, I need to correct you that the '$100.000' toyota you talk about may be the LF-A.... the Lexus supercar, which is different than the IS-F. The IS-F will be offered at around the $ 50.000 mark. The IS-F is the performance version of the IS350, which already has an impressive 306 hp. The IS-F is slated to be over +400HP, which again, is impressive cosidering the (projected) price.

Two different cars, at different prices.

Oh, and here.. see the girl dance.... :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGzxddyrwZk

coming to the ballroom in 2008, actually.

Not bad as the first 'performace' model... it could only get better from here.

[DinanM3atl]

Yup... so it can do burnouts and slide off the track coming onto the front straight. Those people sure were excited to see some burnouts. WTF



I can't wait for it to be released and the M3 Four Door to spank it. Back to the drawing board. On top of that its PURE SIZE almost makes it more M5 competition which would be a joke.

Where did Toad man go? All that shit talking and he got owned over and over and continued to dig his hole deeper. Then he just leaves. What a tool.

[OneSlow5pt0]

Yup... so it can do burnouts and slide off the track coming onto the front straight. Those people sure were excited to see some burnouts. WTF



I can't wait for it to be released and the M3 Four Door to spank it. Back to the drawing board. On top of that its PURE SIZE almost makes it more M5 competition which would be a joke.

Where did Toad man go? All that shit talking and he got owned over and over and continued to dig his hole deeper. Then he just leaves. What a tool.

what shit talking?

i never once said BMWs were bad cars....id take BMW over lexus,and i drive a toyota

but i dont hold them as the greatest cars ever...the M3 is a damn good car,but its not the best ever...and i said AMG are making way more power compared to M power.arent they?


and i said the 328 is uncomfortable,thats just me....its to upright,imo...i like my legs to be straight and low cockpit....like driving a corvette or RX-7.

[ISAtlanta300]

Yup... so it can do burnouts and slide off the track coming onto the front straight. Those people sure were excited to see some burnouts. WTF

I can't wait for it to be released and the M3 Four Door to spank it. Back to the drawing board. On top of that its PURE SIZE almost makes it more M5 competition which would be a joke.

Where did Toad man go? All that shit talking and he got owned over and over and continued to dig his hole deeper. Then he just leaves. What a tool.

Why don't you just wait until it is released before you start nuthugging the M? I am sure that if it happened to SPANK the M3 in the quarter you would prob. say something like 'yup, but it still can't handle like the M', "it's still ugly', 'it doesn't have a stick' wawaaa boo booo

Pure size? you're joking right? Ever sat in an IS350? it's more of a coupe than a sedan. A coupe with 4 doors.

All i'm saying is give the car its due respect. They have managed to come very far in just a couple of years. who would have thought that the IS would someday have best in class hp when it was released? Who would have thought Lexus would produce a 400+hp monster? they did not HAVE to do it, you know... they make enough money with their current lineup....

the main article is proof enough... yeah yea Hustle vs. Muscle.. whatever. the IS350 DID make BMW's sphincter pucker-up, or that comparo wouldn't exist.

[Jaimecbr900]

These damn debates always end up the same. For some reason, some BMW owners can't handle anyone saying anything negative about the "ultimate driving machine"...:rolleyes:

#1. This debate wasn't even started nor did it ever mention the "M" series AT ALL. It was 335i vs IS350. THAT was it. How come the BMW nutswingers have to always rely on the ONLY bullet that noone can dispute, the "M"? Great, so the "M" is a badass car most of the time.....SO??? Is the 335i an "M"???? NOOOOOO. So why bring it up? Apples to 747's, way to go Einstein.

#2. How in the world can you slober all over yourself when you try to defend the already KNOWN prowess of an "M3" by saying you have to DRIVE one to understand it when you yourself have obviously NOT driven the car being discussed....the Lexus IS350??? Hello Kettle, my name is POT...:rolleyes:

This argument is stupid. Of course an "M" anything is badass, damn it SHOULD be. It is after all the top of their respective line, right? If it wasn't, then BMW has no business being in the car world. The regular 3 series is NOT an "M". Never has been, never will be. It may be it's little brother or second cousin twice removed, but it ISN'T an "M". Argue with that.

I still stand by my one and only statement: It is not a fair comparo to pit an N/A car that is supposed to be in the same class against it's adversary which is FI. It just isn't even if the raw data numbers seem to used to justify it. An FI car will have inherent attributes that an N/A motor (of equal or lesser value;) ) can't have. Don't bring in monster domestic motors into it either. That's not what we're talking about here.

Indisputable data:

BEFORE the intro of the TWIN TURBO 335i, what was the 3 series non "M" BMW to the IS350??? Was it still the "ultimate driving machine"? It was underpowered and outclassed. Fast forward to 07 and now look.....what's the BIG difference???? TWIN TURBOS. How about we compare N/A to N/A in the exact same lines? How about a comparo between the 328 and the IS350? 70+ HP and 70+ TQ for the IS350. How do you think the BMW will compare then??? And that is with BMW's "new and improved and more powerful than ever" I6. N/A to N/A there is no comparo.

So just like I said, BMW nutswingers are bragging about how the 335i so much better performance wise than an IS350, yet it took TWIN TURBOS to do it. :rolleyes: :goodjob:

I'll say it again for all the haters and nutswingers. The 335i looks to be an exceptional car. I've not drove one YET, but I'm sure I'll be happy when I finally do. I've driven the IS350 quite a bit. I'll be happy to compare them to each other. As a matter of fact, Lexus drive event is coming in October. Unlike other manufacturers, Lexus brings brand new factory COMPETITORS cars for everyone to compare side-by-side. I'm sure they'll bring the 335i then. I'll thrash the crap out of it and wager my opinion on it. Until then....:tongue1: .....It took TWIN TURBOS to get the same numbers that an N/A motor got....you wanna swing off that, cool.;)

[DeutscheBAG!]

I've got to give you props for one of the more serious posts in here. Very nice opinion without the arrogance and bashing of brands.

However, I need to correct you that the '$100.000' toyota you talk about may be the LF-A.... the Lexus supercar, which is different than the IS-F. The IS-F will be offered at around the $ 50.000 mark. The IS-F is the performance version of the IS350, which already has an impressive 306 hp. The IS-F is slated to be over +400HP, which again, is impressive cosidering the (projected) price.

Two different cars, at different prices.

Oh, and here.. see the girl dance.... :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGzxddyrwZk

coming to the ballroom in 2008, actually.

Not bad as the first 'performace' model... it could only get better from here.

my bad, u are correct sir..got my lexi confused

[cyb593]

lexus all the way

[d993s]

Lexus: all the GAY!

[BlkCD5]

Yup, Lexus is gay cus it constantly keeps the euro market of luxury/sports car engineers at the table. :rolleyes:

[d993s]

Yup, Lexus is gay cus it constantly keeps the euro market of luxury/sports car engineers at the table. :rolleyes:

Wouldn't you try to rid yourself of a constant pest, a copycat, a very annoying unwanted wannabe-friend that follows you around and tries to be like you?
That's what Lexus is to BMW. :D Sad and lame, but true.

[Mike Lowrey]

Wouldn't you try to rid yourself of a constant pest, a copycat, a very annoying unwanted wannabe-friend that follows you around and tries to be like you?
That's what Lexus is to BMW. :D Sad and lame, but true.

Except that "lame" friend actually knows how to engineer a car that is not is the shop more than the owners driveway. :D

[d993s]

Except that "lame" friend actually knows how to engineer a car that is not is the shop more than the owners driveway. :D


:rolleyes:
And Americans are capable of building cars that get 200mpg while doing 10 second 1/4 mile times and lasting 100 years. Are they making them? Hell no! What would that do to the economy?
There's not much $ to be made with something that's "too reliable". Most cars these days are purposely built as a disposable money pit.

Just like each medical system across the world, no matter how good or bad it is......there's no possible further profit if a cure is found for a disease. That's why some diseases have been brought back from their "no risk" status. Ever heard of "the last case of such and such", etc, etc?

[DinanM3atl]

Why don't you just wait until it is released before you start nuthugging the M? I am sure that if it happened to SPANK the M3 in the quarter you would prob. say something like 'yup, but it still can't handle like the M', "it's still ugly', 'it doesn't have a stick' wawaaa boo booo

Pure size? you're joking right? Ever sat in an IS350? it's more of a coupe than a sedan. A coupe with 4 doors.

All i'm saying is give the car its due respect. They have managed to come very far in just a couple of years. who would have thought that the IS would someday have best in class hp when it was released? Who would have thought Lexus would produce a 400+hp monster? they did not HAVE to do it, you know... they make enough money with their current lineup....

the main article is proof enough... yeah yea Hustle vs. Muscle.. whatever. the IS350 DID make BMW's sphincter pucker-up, or that comparo wouldn't exist.

OMG THE QUARTER MILE! THE TELL ALL PERFORMANCE STAT!!!!!! HOLY SHIT!!! Now I know why my M3 Sucks!!!! It is slow at the quarter mile! Fuck!

BMW doesn't built cars for the drag strip. I know people on this site look at the 0-60 and the 1/4 mile stats first, oh and the Peak HP number because that is SUPER important!


Except that "lame" friend actually knows how to engineer a car that is not is the shop more than the owners driveway. :D

^

Never owned a BMW and prolly never will. So his brother's girlfriends dad had one and it broke down all the time. Oh and he read on the internet they break down all the time.

[DinanM3atl]

These damn debates always end up the same. For some reason, some BMW owners can't handle anyone saying anything negative about the "ultimate driving machine"...:rolleyes:

Yah. Because false information is posted by a bunch of internet car jockies that have no business even discussing or insulting one car or the other.


#1. This debate wasn't even started nor did it ever mention the "M" series AT ALL. It was 335i vs IS350. THAT was it. How come the BMW nutswingers have to always rely on the ONLY bullet that noone can dispute, the "M"? Great, so the "M" is a badass car most of the time.....SO??? Is the 335i an "M"???? NOOOOOO. So why bring it up? Apples to 747's, way to go Einstein.

Why can't I compare it to an M? My 2 generation old M3 which can be had for 15-20K can spank the shit out of the IS350. But I guess that is a big no no. Let's continue on and compare it to a 3 series then.


#2. How in the world can you slober all over yourself when you try to defend the already KNOWN prowess of an "M3" by saying you have to DRIVE one to understand it when you yourself have obviously NOT driven the car being discussed....the Lexus IS350??? Hello Kettle, my name is POT...:rolleyes:

I drove an is300. It is a shitbox. Why should I got drive the new one when they set a goal of 3 series beater and the is300 wasn't better than my 89 325i. There are 2 Japanese cars I have driven that I would consider worth my while. STI and Supra. Z cars are turds. Evo is a turd(Take that back. The overall car is a turd, the drivetrain is great.)


This argument is stupid. Of course an "M" anything is badass, damn it SHOULD be. It is after all the top of their respective line, right? If it wasn't, then BMW has no business being in the car world. The regular 3 series is NOT an "M". Never has been, never will be. It may be it's little brother or second cousin twice removed, but it ISN'T an "M". Argue with that.

Can't. It's not an M.


I still stand by my one and only statement: It is not a fair comparo to pit an N/A car that is supposed to be in the same class against it's adversary which is FI. It just isn't even if the raw data numbers seem to used to justify it. An FI car will have inherent attributes that an N/A motor (of equal or lesser value;) ) can't have. Don't bring in monster domestic motors into it either. That's not what we're talking about here.

Why? They compared the Audi S4 to the M3 of the last body style. Not fair. e46 M3 verse v8 s4. Not fair. S4 has v8. You sound like a honda guy.


Indisputable data:

BEFORE the intro of the TWIN TURBO 335i, what was the 3 series non "M" BMW to the IS350??? Was it still the "ultimate driving machine"? It was underpowered and outclassed. Fast forward to 07 and now look.....what's the BIG difference???? TWIN TURBOS. How about we compare N/A to N/A in the exact same lines? How about a comparo between the 328 and the IS350? 70+ HP and 70+ TQ for the IS350. How do you think the BMW will compare then??? And that is with BMW's "new and improved and more powerful than ever" I6. N/A to N/A there is no comparo. [/QUOTE]

So Lexus gets to bring the top of the linke IS(minus the F) but BMW has to bring the shittiest? That is fucking retarded. Let's just bring a 316i from Europe and compare that to the is350. It would only be fair. You again sound like thr typical IA user. Oh +70hp and +70lb/ft torque. Holy shit the MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT!!!! If you want to compare that shouldn't we compare the is250 to the 328i? The 350 vs the 335? What you are really saying is "Damn BMW engineers did something great and Lexus current car can't compete. UNFAIR COMPARISSON!!!" Bullshit.

No one said Lexus can't use a turbo or blower. This is why AMG always has more power. They are CHEATING with large displacement and blowers!


So just like I said, BMW nutswingers are bragging about how the 335i so much better performance wise than an IS350, yet it took TWIN TURBOS to do it. :rolleyes: :goodjob:

Again. Honda guy mentality. "They cheated". My 99 M3 is better. An 02 M3(which can be had for 25,000... far less than the is350) is WAY better and makes MORE power N/A! Give me a break man. Quit getting mad that BMW used a turbo. Toyota cheated when they turbo'd the Supra. What cheaters. Otherwise their car wouldn't have been good. That just sounds stupid.


I'll say it again for all the haters and nutswingers. The 335i looks to be an exceptional car. I've not drove one YET, but I'm sure I'll be happy when I finally do. I've driven the IS350 quite a bit. I'll be happy to compare them to each other. As a matter of fact, Lexus drive event is coming in October. Unlike other manufacturers, Lexus brings brand new factory COMPETITORS cars for everyone to compare side-by-side. I'm sure they'll bring the 335i then. I'll thrash the crap out of it and wager my opinion on it. Until then....:tongue1: .....It took TWIN TURBOS to get the same numbers that an N/A motor got....you wanna swing off that, cool.;)

This is retarded... hmmm let's see what BMW has done with 6 cylinders over the years since you seem to be nut swinging this motor so hard.

1988 S38 3.5L I-6 286 HP
1991 S38B38 3.8L I-6 340 HP
1994 S50B30 3.0L I-6 286 HP
1996 S50B32 3.2L I-6 321 HP
2001 S54 3.2L I-6 333 HP

So.... It took you guys 20 years to get to 300hp out of a 6 cylinder! Good Job guys!

On top of ALL of this... The 335 motor is WAY underrated. Claims 300hp on paper. It puts down ~285 to the wheels on the dyno. Do the math ;)

[Mike Lowrey]

:rolleyes:
And Americans are capable of building cars that get 200mpg while doing 10 second 1/4 mile times and lasting 100 years. Are they making them? Hell no! What would that do to the economy?
There's not much $ to be made with something that's "too reliable". Most cars these days are purposely built as a disposable money pit.

Just like each medical system across the world, no matter how good or bad it is......there's no possible further profit if a cure is found for a disease. That's why some diseases have been brought back from their "no risk" status. Ever heard of "the last case of such and such", etc, etc?

:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:

You are a dumbass. Cars are not designed to be in the shop more than in the owners hands. That is called poor quality. GTFO douche.

[Jaimecbr900]

Look folks, you have one guy that SELLS German cars and parts and the other that OWNS a BMW.......why the hell does anyone think that either of them is going to be objective? :rolleyes:

Like I said before, this is exactly what EVERY thread that remotely has BMW associated with it turns into. I wonder why that is????:rolleyes:

If a car is not fast in a straight line, then it's not fast in a straight line. Don't look for excuses why it's not. It just is. Things in the rest of the non-BMW world work like that. You either fix it or move on, it's that simple. If you want to find that small window where YOUR particular car is just "awesome" and pitch a tent around that.....then don't complain when other people who don't choose to stick their head in the sand point out where your short comings are that you conviniently choose to gloss over. If you have a car that is good at only one thing, then it's a purpose built car....right? By definition, a purpose built car is only good at ONE maybe even TWO things. That means that if someone wants it to do THREE or FOUR things, it can't do it very well, right??? So all the complaining and whining in the world is not going to change that FACT. People want to try and re-invent the wheel when it's not necessary. Give credit where credit is due. Where it not for competition, many cars would still be carburated and all headliners would sag. No problem with having brand loyalty, unless that loyalty blinds you to give credit where credit is due.

Speaking of FACTS; Reliability is derived from NUMBERS. Numbers in any language still ADD up and SUBTRACT exactly the same. They are not subjective nor arbitrary. Just like above, they are what they are. Independent research shows what the REAL bottomline is when it comes to reliability between these two cars. The NUMBERS are there and they are CLEAR. BMW lovers can try to muddy up the water as much as they'd like, but unless 3rd grade MATH is trouble for you.....the NUMBERS don't lie. It doesn't matter if you're German or Japanese, 1 is one and 2 is two.

[Mike Lowrey]

^

Never owned a BMW and prolly never will.

At least you got something right!


So his brother's girlfriends dad had one and it broke down all the time. Oh and he read on the internet they break down all the time.

Actually, I know several people that have had numerous problems. That does not mean that all the cars have problems, but several do. Next?!

[Mike Lowrey]

BMW lovers can try to muddy up the water as much as they'd like, but unless 3rd grade MATH is trouble for you.....the NUMBERS don't lie. It doesn't matter if you're German or Japanese, 1 is one and 2 is two.

Unless it's BMW math! :lmfao:

[Jaimecbr900]

Yah. Because false information is posted by a bunch of internet car jockies that have no business even discussing or insulting one car or the other.

And since you're only claim to fame is driving an "M", I guess that makes you king ding-a-ling then, huh? :rolleyes: That's what the ignore button is for on IA. You seem to get bent out of shape everytime we have this kind of discussion. Why not just ignore it and move on.




Why can't I compare it to an M? My 2 generation old M3 which can be had for 15-20K can spank the shit out of the IS350. But I guess that is a big no no. Let's continue on and compare it to a 3 series then.

OMG, get off it already. Ok, I'll play your dumbass game.

A 2nd Gen IS300 with a big ass turbo can be had for cheap too. Now what? BFD. I know personally of a friend of mine that had a TURBO IS300 that would run circles around YOUR "M" every day of the week and twice on Sunday. What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? Speaking of China, I KNOW there are gobs of modded Lexi in the Orient that would spank YOUR car too. Again, SO WHAT???? We can do this bullshit comparo of "MAYBE" cars all day long. Trust me I've seen and driven my fair share of RAGGED OUT POS M3's in my day. I wouldn't drive one of those rags if you paid me, but that goes the same for ANY ragged out POS. Your point is what??? You have no point because you're comparing apples to dingle berries.

Stick to the comparo. It's 335i vs IS350....not IS250, not 328, not IS300, not the venerable "M". Stick with it. :rolleyes:



I drove an is300. It is a shitbox. Why should I got drive the new one when they set a goal of 3 series beater and the is300 wasn't better than my 89 325i. There are 2 Japanese cars I have driven that I would consider worth my while. STI and Supra. Z cars are turds. Evo is a turd(Take that back. The overall car is a turd, the drivetrain is great.)

Wait, wasn't it you....the all knowing all master car god....that said NOONE should opinionate on BMW's "if they've never OWNED one..."???? :thinking:

Just how many IS's have YOU OWNED to make you such an authority???? How many STI's, Supra's, Z's, and Evo's have YOU OWNED???? Yet, you have an opinion on them, huh???? Guess what's good for the goose is not good for the gander in your world.:rolleyes:

Hello Kettle, my name is Pot. :rolleyes:




Can't. It's not an M.

Then quit bringing the "M" up then. :goodjob:



Why? They compared the Audi S4 to the M3 of the last body style. Not fair. e46 M3 verse v8 s4. Not fair. S4 has v8. You sound like a honda guy.

Who's complaining now???? :rolleyes: Just WHY isn't it fair????

BTW, I've never owned a Honda in my life. Shows how much you know. :goodjob:




So Lexus gets to bring the top of the linke IS(minus the F) but BMW has to bring the shittiest? That is fucking retarded.

NOW the cream rises to the top. Why is it retarded? So even you, the BMW god, now admit that the 3 series is "shitty"???? Be careful, your lifetime membership to the BMW nut swinger club may be in jeopardy here.

The IS-F and the new M3 I'm sure will be compared.



Let's just bring a 316i from Europe and compare that to the is350. It would only be fair. You again sound like thr typical IA user. Oh +70hp and +70lb/ft torque. Holy shit the MOST IMPORTANT ASPECT!!!! If you want to compare that shouldn't we compare the is250 to the 328i? The 350 vs the 335? What you are really saying is "Damn BMW engineers did something great and Lexus current car can't compete. UNFAIR COMPARISSON!!!" Bullshit.

:blah: :blah: :blah: My God are you ever gonna quit? The 316i is NOT sold in AMERICA, right??? So why compare them? This is not a Germany vs the world thing. You're so damn retarded its getting on my last damn nerve. You sound just like somebody who fights using their cousin's brother's neighbor who is an AFC champion. "Na, Na, boo, boo....Ima bring John Holmes to show you how big HIS dick is because MINE is too small.....":jerkit:

Get off this stupid ass comparing of cars that either aren't made anymore, are in someone's field somewhere waiting to be some kind of powerhouse, or aren't even made yet. It's retarded. It goes to show that if you can't fight fair, then maybe cheating is OK in your book. Get off it already. It's lame and old. That's the whole damn point. Compare apples to damn apples. N/A vs N/A, not N/A vs FI because I couldn't beat you with N/A.......damn. :rolleyes:



No one said Lexus can't use a turbo or blower. This is why AMG always has more power. They are CHEATING with large displacement and blowers!

AMG is the top of the line Benz, right? "M" is the top of the line BMW, right? IS350 is the....wait, it's NOT the top of the line Lexus.....right???

Compare E320, 328, and IS350. Who'd win that? After next year, you can compare the IS-F, M3, and AMG. Until then, it's moot. You probably don't get that, do you?




My 99 M3 is better.

Than what and according to whom???



This is retarded... hmmm let's see what BMW has done with 6 cylinders over the years since you seem to be nut swinging this motor so hard.

1988 S38 3.5L I-6 286 HP
1991 S38B38 3.8L I-6 340 HP
1994 S50B30 3.0L I-6 286 HP
1996 S50B32 3.2L I-6 321 HP
2001 S54 3.2L I-6 333 HP

So.... It took you guys 20 years to get to 300hp out of a 6 cylinder! Good Job guys!

All M motors......hmmm, how nice. :rolleyes: Reading is not your friend is it??? Wearing a helmet right now, aren't you? Have a bib on to catch all the slober, right?? Whatever man, you're hopeless.

[DinanM3atl]

Look folks, you have one guy that SELLS German cars and parts and the other that OWNS a BMW.......why the hell does anyone think that either of them is going to be objective? :rolleyes:

Like I said before, this is exactly what EVERY thread that remotely has BMW associated with it turns into. I wonder why that is????:rolleyes:

If a car is not fast in a straight line, then it's not fast in a straight line. Don't look for excuses why it's not. It just is. Things in the rest of the non-BMW world work like that. You either fix it or move on, it's that simple. If you want to find that small window where YOUR particular car is just "awesome" and pitch a tent around that.....then don't complain when other people who don't choose to stick their head in the sand point out where your short comings are that you conviniently choose to gloss over. If you have a car that is good at only one thing, then it's a purpose built car....right? By definition, a purpose built car is only good at ONE maybe even TWO things. That means that if someone wants it to do THREE or FOUR things, it can't do it very well, right??? So all the complaining and whining in the world is not going to change that FACT. People want to try and re-invent the wheel when it's not necessary. Give credit where credit is due. Where it not for competition, many cars would still be carburated and all headliners would sag. No problem with having brand loyalty, unless that loyalty blinds you to give credit where credit is due.

Speaking of FACTS; Reliability is derived from NUMBERS. Numbers in any language still ADD up and SUBTRACT exactly the same. They are not subjective nor arbitrary. Just like above, they are what they are. Independent research shows what the REAL bottomline is when it comes to reliability between these two cars. The NUMBERS are there and they are CLEAR. BMW lovers can try to muddy up the water as much as they'd like, but unless 3rd grade MATH is trouble for you.....the NUMBERS don't lie. It doesn't matter if you're German or Japanese, 1 is one and 2 is two.

But it is not faster.

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/09/26/the-beast-within-bmw-335i-sedan-hits-sixty-in-4-8-seconds/

"They managed a 4.8 to be exact on their way to a quarter in 13.5 seconds at 106 mph. In case you aren't paying close attention, that's what the current M3 does"

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=106607

This article and writer is SO EXCITED that is is FASTER than the OLD 3 series. HAHHAHAHA Awesome. "Damn this new car is better than the competitions old car! We won!

" Whatever the cause, the car doesn't feel as fast as a 306-hp sedan should as it zips to 60 mph. It does, however, beat the last 330i and A4 we tested (http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/106052/article.html) (both equipped with six-speed manual transmissions) by 0.5 and 1.6 seconds, respectively. It also blasted through the quarter-mile in 14.2 seconds, smoking the German competition by about the same 0.6 to 1.5 seconds."


335 13.5 1/4 mile
is350 14.2 1/4

[DinanM3atl]

Stick to the comparo. It's 335i vs IS350....not IS250, not 328, not IS300, not the venerable "M". Stick with it. :rolleyes:

Ok this is comparison. Which the 350 lost.



Get off this stupid ass comparing of cars that either aren't made anymore, are in someone's field somewhere waiting to be some kind of powerhouse, or aren't even made yet. It's retarded. It goes to show that if you can't fight fair, then maybe cheating is OK in your book. Get off it already. It's lame and old. That's the whole damn point. Compare apples to damn apples. N/A vs N/A, not N/A vs FI because I couldn't beat you with N/A.......damn. :rolleyes:


Why is having a car with a stock turbo "cheating".


AMG is the top of the line Benz, right? "M" is the top of the line BMW, right? IS350 is the....wait, it's NOT the top of the line Lexus.....right???

Nope. But you figure a new car would better a 10 year old "Ragged out POS as you call it"


Compare E320, 328, and IS350. Who'd win that? After next year, you can compare the IS-F, M3, and AMG. Until then, it's moot. You probably don't get that, do you?


Ok. So you lost comparing the top of the line 3 series verse the top of the line IS350. Excluding the IS-F and M3. Now since you lost that you want to compare the top of the line is350 and the bottom of the line 328i. Wouldn't the fair comparison be is250 verse 328i?




All M motors......hmmm, how nice. :rolleyes: Reading is not your friend is it??? Wearing a helmet right now, aren't you? Have a bib on to catch all the slober, right?? Whatever man, you're hopeless.

You were claiming how awesome this 6 cylinder is being NA. Those are all BMW 6 cylinders. I don't see the problem.


I am out. This is pointless. You drive and love Lexus and I drive and love BMW.

Nothing will change.

[Mike Lowrey]

But it is not faster.

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/09/26/the-beast-within-bmw-335i-sedan-hits-sixty-in-4-8-seconds/

"They managed a 4.8 to be exact on their way to a quarter in 13.5 seconds at 106 mph. In case you aren't paying close attention, that's what the current M3 does"

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=106607

This article and writer is SO EXCITED that is is FASTER than the OLD 3 series. HAHHAHAHA Awesome. "Damn this new car is better than the competitions old car! We won!

" Whatever the cause, the car doesn't feel as fast as a 306-hp sedan should as it zips to 60 mph. It does, however, beat the last 330i and A4 we tested (http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/106052/article.html) (both equipped with six-speed manual transmissions) by 0.5 and 1.6 seconds, respectively. It also blasted through the quarter-mile in 14.2 seconds, smoking the German competition by about the same 0.6 to 1.5 seconds."


335 13.5 1/4 mile
is350 14.2 1/4

Let's see, so you take the slowest posted time for the IS350 to compare to the 335? :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:

Do you BMW guys sit around sucking each others' dicks? :lmfao:

I have personally run a 13.4 in a stock IS350. There have been verified times as low as 13.3 for stock IS350's. That compares to a range of 13.2 - 13.6 in the 335. Let us compare fairly. :goodjob:

Not go find another M3 owner, so you can suck his cock. :goodjob:

[OneSlow5pt0]

man......BMWs are the dodoo

[DinanM3atl]

Let's see, so you take the slowest posted time for the IS350 to compare to the 335? :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:

Do you BMW guys sit around sucking each others' dicks? :lmfao:

I have personally run a 13.4 in a stock IS350. There have been verified times as low as 13.3 for stock IS350's. That compares to a range of 13.2 - 13.6 in the 335. Let us compare fairly. :goodjob:

Not go find another M3 owner, so you can suck his cock. :goodjob:

I just searched and went with the first link.

Resort to calling people names and insulting me. Very mature. Have you considered being on a Debate team?

[BlkCD5]

can't believe this shit is still going on. :screwy: The facts are in the article, but yet you're still in denial that Bmw can't be beat. It may not be entirely, but again lexus is doing a good job. I just hope one day I'll be able to test drive "the ultimate driving machine." and compare it to "the pursuit of perfection"

[ISAtlanta300]

OMG THE QUARTER MILE! THE TELL ALL PERFORMANCE STAT!!!!!! HOLY SHIT!!! Now I know why my M3 Sucks!!!! It is slow at the quarter mile! Fuck!

BMW doesn't built cars for the drag strip. I know people on this site look at the 0-60 and the 1/4 mile stats first, oh and the Peak HP number because that is SUPER important!


Hey, it is you talked about "can't wait for it to come out so the M3 would spank it".

I gave an example of IF it happened to spank it in the 1/4. we don't even know that yet.

Now all of a sudden "no it is not about the 1/4 mile".

You're too predictable :rolleyes: Thanks for proving my point.

[BobbyFresco]

This is an endless argument....
No diff than the Ford vs Chevy rivalry and whatever other ones that may exist...
At the end of the day the only left to do is agree to disagree.....

[ISAtlanta300]

But it is not faster.

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/09/26/the-beast-within-bmw-335i-sedan-hits-sixty-in-4-8-seconds/

"They managed a 4.8 to be exact on their way to a quarter in 13.5 seconds at 106 mph. In case you aren't paying close attention, that's what the current M3 does"

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=106607

This article and writer is SO EXCITED that is is FASTER than the OLD 3 series. HAHHAHAHA Awesome. "Damn this new car is better than the competitions old car! We won!

" Whatever the cause, the car doesn't feel as fast as a 306-hp sedan should as it zips to 60 mph. It does, however, beat the last 330i and A4 we tested (http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/106052/article.html) (both equipped with six-speed manual transmissions) by 0.5 and 1.6 seconds, respectively. It also blasted through the quarter-mile in 14.2 seconds, smoking the German competition by about the same 0.6 to 1.5 seconds."


335 13.5 1/4 mile
is350 14.2 1/4

Funny how all of a sudden you won't use your beloved CAR AND DRIVER Magazine (like you did before to hail your oh so godly BMW) to accurately quote the IS350's numbers
AAANnnnd I quote:
"It also has 306 ponies from an all-new 3.5-liter V-6, enough to make 60 mph in 5.1 seconds and sear your quarter-mile in 13.7 seconds at 104 mph with a few flicks of the steering-wheel paddles controlling the six-speed automatic. Every other car here sucks its dust. Welcome to the most exuberant Lexus ever built."

Yeah. GTFout of here.

But but.. WAIT !!! Didn't you say that "OMFG QUARTER MILE !! BMW don't build cars for the drag strip !! WOWZERS WHO cares about quarter miles?" so then why bring up stats about the 335 quarter mile?

Again. GTFout of here.

[Mike Lowrey]

I just searched and went with the first link.

Resort to calling people names and insulting me. Very mature. Have you considered being on a Debate team?

:lmfao:
No debate team for me. Just don't understand what it is to be a BMW nutswinger, and never will.

[DinanM3atl]

:lmfao:
No debate team for me. Just don't understand what it is to be a BMW nutswinger, and never will.

You should think about it.

Just tell the other debater they suck dick. That will work.

[DinanM3atl]

Funny how all of a sudden you won't use your beloved CAR AND DRIVER Magazine (like you did before to hail your oh so godly BMW) to accurately quote the IS350's numbers
AAANnnnd I quote:
"It also has 306 ponies from an all-new 3.5-liter V-6, enough to make 60 mph in 5.1 seconds and sear your quarter-mile in 13.7 seconds at 104 mph with a few flicks of the steering-wheel paddles controlling the six-speed automatic. Every other car here sucks its dust. Welcome to the most exuberant Lexus ever built."

Yeah. GTFout of here.

But but.. WAIT !!! Didn't you say that "OMFG QUARTER MILE !! BMW don't build cars for the drag strip !! WOWZERS WHO cares about quarter miles?" so then why bring up stats about the 335 quarter mile?

Again. GTFout of here.

You GTFout. Did you read what I wrote? I guess not because I said "Sorry I just clicked on the first google link".

Funny how you talked shit and said "no way M3 beat an NSX" but you didn't even reply to that when I posted up the facts. Also I can't find where I said I had a boner for Car and Driver. They just happened to do the article in which the m3 tounced cars 2 and 3 times its price.(including an NSX-T which you said was bullshit. Then when I post an article with raw numbers(IE Corner speeds) you have nothing to say. Funny how that works)

I am not going to get into this again. Jaime and a few others are the only ones in here not calling people names and telling people to "Get The Fuck Out"(Wow that is mature) and telling me that "I need to go suck some BMW owners dick"(Again. How old are you?)

It is pointless. Grow up and learn how to post a coherent thought with some facts and figures. Telling someone to suck a dick just means you have nothing intelligent to say.

So GTFout.

[OneSlow5pt0]

i still cant figure out why we are talking bout M3s

[d993s]

:lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao:

You are a dumbass. Cars are not designed to be in the shop more than in the owners hands. That is called poor quality. GTFO douche.

Go tell that to some of the Ferrari guys, or most other exotics!

You have got to be a complete idiot to NOT know that cars nowadays are purposely built to have more problems and require more expensive repairs. Why do most V6 and V8 engines have 4 oxygen sensors when they can make do with only 2??? Why do they still make engines with timing belts that require to be changed at 50-60k intervals?
Didn't you see what happened with Mercedes quality when it was under Chrysler influence? The HP went up and the quality went to shit. But guess what? Sales went up! Disposable Mercedes!
It's all about making more profit. Some are just more greedy than others.

[ISAtlanta300]

You GTFout. Did you read what I wrote? I guess not because I said "Sorry I just clicked on the first google link".

Funny how you talked shit and said "no way M3 beat an NSX" but you didn't even reply to that when I posted up the facts.

Sorry, daisy. It wasn't me that said that. Strike one.



Also I can't find where I said I had a boner for Car and Driver. They just happened to do the article in which the m3 tounced cars 2 and 3 times its price.(including an NSX-T which you said was bullshit. Then when I post an article with raw numbers(IE Corner speeds) you have nothing to say. Funny how that works)

Which was what i was implying, you used car and driver then to make a point about the handling, but did not use car and driver's IS350 quarter mile numbers. Yea, funny how that works indeed. And again, I did not argue about the NSX/M3 article. Strike two.



I am not going to get into this again. Jaime and a few others are the only ones in here not calling people names and telling people to "Get The Fuck Out"(Wow that is mature) and telling me that "I need to go suck some BMW owners dick"(Again. How old are you?.

It is pointless. Grow up and learn how to post a coherent thought with some facts and figures. Telling someone to suck a dick just means you have nothing intelligent to say.

My age has nothing to do with this, but i am sure I am older than you. I have not "called you names" or asked to you to "suck some BMW owners' dick". You have me confused again, daisy.

Strike three.....GTFOutta here. Or get new glasses.




So GTFout

"Get The Fuck Out"(Wow that is mature) lol.

[ISAtlanta300]

The funny thing is that the original article in question is actually pretty good and accurate. Can't believe how it came to all this? Can't we all enjoy our awesome cars without having to resort to "mine is better than yours" ?

[Mike Lowrey]

Funny how you talked shit and said "no way M3 beat an NSX" but you didn't even reply to that when I posted up the facts. Also I can't find where I said I had a boner for Car and Driver. They just happened to do the article in which the m3 tounced cars 2 and 3 times its price.(including an NSX-T which you said was bullshit. Then when I post an article with raw numbers(IE Corner speeds) you have nothing to say. Funny how that works)

Post the lap yimes for each of the cars. All I see is corner speeds.

[Mike Lowrey]

Go tell that to some of the Ferrari guys, or most other exotics!

:lmfao: :lmfao:


You have got to be a complete idiot to NOT know that cars nowadays are purposely built to have more problems and require more expensive repairs. Why do most V6 and V8 engines have 4 oxygen sensors when they can make do with only 2???

You are joking right?! :lmfao: :lmfao: Go buy a brain retard. Why do they have 4 O2 sensors?! V6 and V8's have two exhaust banks. Each bank has an O2 sensor before and after the catalytic converter. The first one determines AFR, the second verifies the catalytic converter is functioning properly. Last time I checked, that equals 4 sensors! :lmfao: :lmfao:

Door is that way. Use it.
---------------------------------------------->


Didn't you see what happened with Mercedes quality when it was under Chrysler influence? The HP went up and the quality went to shit. But guess what? Sales went up! Disposable Mercedes!
It's all about making more profit. Some are just more greedy than others.

You are dumb. Leave while that is all we think about you.

[d993s]

:lmfao: :lmfao:



You are joking right?! :lmfao: :lmfao: Go buy a brain retard. Why do they have 4 O2 sensors?! V6 and V8's have two exhaust banks. Each bank has an O2 sensor before and after the catalytic converter. The first one determines AFR, the second verifies the catalytic converter is functioning properly. Last time I checked, that equals 4 sensors! :lmfao: :lmfao:

Door is that way. Use it.
---------------------------------------------->



You are dumb. Leave while that is all we think about you.

:rolleyes:
WTF?????? :lmfao: You are beyond stupid. I know how they are made and how they work, but you fail to understand he point!!!
They CAN use a 4-into-1 on each side, then use a Y-pipe to connect them, then use the 1 O2 sensorbefore the cat, and 1 after. That's just one example. MORON!!!

You must drive one of those dual exhaust Civics with 4 or 8 tips.......unnecessary.

[Mike Lowrey]

:rolleyes:
WTF?????? :lmfao: You are beyond stupid. I know how they are made and how they work, but you fail to understand he point!!!
They CAN use a 4-into-1 on each side, then use a Y-pipe to connect them, then use the 1 O2 sensorbefore the cat, and 1 after. That's just one example. MORON!!!

You must drive one of those dual exhaust Civics with 4 or 8 tips.......unnecessary.

And you fail to look at the whole picture. A 4-1 header would take up alot of space at the rear of the engine (assuming front engine, RWD). That would require several possible changes that are unfavorable:

1. The engine may have to sit higher in the engine bay. This would hurt the center of gravity of the car and hinder handling.

2. The tunnel for the tranny, exhaust would have to be bigger. This would remove interior space.

3. There are also production costs to look at.

That is just a few items. Your items work OK when the engine is on the stand, but how about in the car. GTFO. You are not smart enough for this thread.

[nreggie454]

I have never been all too impressed with any Lexus product, and even though the new IS might be pretty nice, the 335 is much better IMO. Lots of stock torque + a whole lot of aftermarket opportunity = a beast in the making.

[man]

I have never been all too impressed with any Lexus product, and even though the new IS might be pretty nice, the 335 is much better IMO. Lots of stock torque + a whole lot of aftermarket opportunity = a beast in the making.

Why is this even being brought up? Honestly, who is gonna buy either of these cars, spend 10s of thousands of dollars on them and take them out to the track? No one (at least no one with brains) Neither of these cars are marketed towards a real performance enthusiast.

[BobbyFresco]

Why is this even being brought up? Honestly, who is gonna buy either of these cars, spend 10s of thousands of dollars on them and take them out to the track? No one (at least no one with brains) Neither of these cars are marketed towards a real performance enthusiast.


This isn't entirely true......
If you look @ some Bmw forums, plenty of ppl are tracking these cars....

[d993s]

And you fail to look at the whole picture. A 4-1 header would take up alot of space at the rear of the engine (WTF??? :lmfao: :lmfao: :lmfao: )assuming front engine, RWD). That would require several possible changes that are unfavorable:

1. The engine may have to sit higher in the engine bay. (NO IT WOULDN'T.....only if it was designed by a retard named richw131)This would hurt the center of gravity of the car and hinder handling.

2. The tunnel for the tranny, exhaust would have to be bigger. (WHY? IT'S A MORE COMPACT DESIGN, IDIOT!) This would remove interior space.

3. There are also production costs to look at. (WELL YEAH, SINCE IT'S ALREADY MADE WITH 4 o2 SENSORS, A NEW DESIGN WOULD COST MORE, BUT THAT WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN A PROBLEM IF THEY WERE SIMPLIFIED TO BEGIN WITH!!!)

That is just a few items. Your items work OK when the engine is on the stand, but how about in the car. GTFO. You are not smart enough for this thread.

If you wouldn't spend so much time sucking gator dick, you might be able to comprehend the point I first made, and stop trying to come with unnecessary bullshit variables that will only favor your argument.

[man]

This isn't entirely true......
If you look @ some Bmw forums, plenty of ppl are tracking these cars....

Only because the M3 isn't out yet.

[Mike Lowrey]

If you wouldn't spend so much time sucking gator dick, you might be able to comprehend the point I first made, and stop trying to come with unnecessary bullshit variables that will only favor your argument.

If you would remove you head from your ass long enough to get the proper oxygen to your brain, you might actually comprehend how stupid this is. Are you to presume that "YOUR" idea is better than anything else when taking into account all design and cost variables?! Bitch please.

I find it funny that you think you know better. Go back to jerking off to porn and leave the real thinking to the adults.

[DinanM3atl]

Why is this even being brought up? Honestly, who is gonna buy either of these cars, spend 10s of thousands of dollars on them and take them out to the track? No one (at least no one with brains) Neither of these cars are marketed towards a real performance enthusiast.



I had to come back for this dumbass comment.

BMW owners MORON!!!!

Come out to a BMWCCA Drivers event.

328s
325s
M3s
M5s
530s
540s
318s

e30s
e28s
e12s
2002s

Everything. We drive our cars! Dude that I park next to last 2 events has an 06 328 and he has already been to 4 events. We drive our cars. Thus why we care about handling.


HAHAHHAHHAHA Not marked for a true performance enthusiasts...

hahahaha

[DinanM3atl]

Only because the M3 isn't out yet.

HAHAHAAH

Yah that is it!!!!


haahhaahahha

Or because they cant afford an M3 but they want the track experience so they drive their 335 or 330 ir 328 or 5 series even.

aahahahaahahahaha

[man]

Wow, Dinan, you really are as dumb as I thought.

Please learn how to read and comprehend things. I know you have problems with this but there is help available.

[DinanM3atl]

If you would remove you head from your ass long enough to get the proper oxygen to your brain, you might actually comprehend how stupid this is. Are you to presume that "YOUR" idea is better than anything else when taking into account all design and cost variables?! Bitch please.

I find it funny that you think you know better. Go back to jerking off to porn and leave the real thinking to the adults.


He is right. Nice try but he is right ;)


Many auto makers are going to synthetic oils and extended service lengths. Is this for the better? No. Cars are recyclable now. If you truly wait 15,000 miles between oil changes you are doing damage to your engine. It DOES NOT last that long.

Most automakers have "lifetime" tranny fluid and diff fluid. "Lifetime" is the life of the car. Not your lifetime. If you drive your car and never change your auto tranny fluid it will break prematurely. Funny how a 1988 535i with automatic and 300,000 miles still works great.(BMW used to say change ever 30,000 miles) 2002 540i the automatic will fail between 100,000 and 120,000 miles. Only thing changed is the fluid is "lifetime" and the dealer wont even change it.

BMW uses plastic end caps on radiators. They have for 30 years. They break every 80,000 miles. They know they break. Why not make them out of aluminum? Then they won't break.

All the rubber bushings. You could use Urethane(70a) and it is only marginally stiffer(most people would never notice) and then never replace rubber bushings. Why don't they do this?

How come my 1989 325i all the interior plastic is perfect. Nothing chipped or broken or damaged. My Mom's 2001 e430 Sport Mercedes breaks interior pieces all the time.

You go to a dealer and a brand new lexus/bmw/nissan/benz all have cheaper and cheaper plastics yet the cars price inflates. Why? Because they are putting electonics in and extra bullshit. He is right. My e30 runs on 1 o2 sensor and got 34 mpg on the highway. 2.5L I-6. My m3 has FOUR of them and gets 26 if it is lucky. It has 2 cats, 2 resonators and a huge muffler. All new cars do this. It is more stuff to fail and means instead of one 100 dollar 02 I need 4 of them.

My old boss was an engineer for Mercedes Benz in Germany. Engines/trans etc they want to last. That in the mind of "most" customers is the biggest thing. Will it start and run. Past that they made parts to last a certain length of time and to a certain point. BMW and Benz used to make parts 2x where the value of X was the strength the part needed to be. Now BMW and Benz make it 1x. Thus more failures.

Sorry pal but this is just how it is. Even on a camry and accord. New ones have more stupid pointless failures then any of the old ones did. The cars that are simply cars "built to last" they put in more and more bullshit.

[DinanM3atl]

Wow, Dinan, you really are as dumb as I thought.

Please learn how to read and comprehend things. I know you have problems with this but there is help available.

Please explain before you call me dumb you fuck.

You said "Only a stupid person would track these cars after spending 10s of thousands of dollars on them"

So I replied with what I said about how BMW drivers DO TAKE THESE NEW CARS TO THE TRACK!

How is that dumb? Please tell me.

[man]

Please explain before you call me dumb you fuck.

You said "Only a stupid person would track these cars after spending 10s of thousands of dollars on them"

So I replied with what I said about how BMW drivers DO TAKE THESE NEW CARS TO THE TRACK!

How is that dumb? Please tell me.

I mean simply that most people would not buy a 335 and spend 10, 20, or 30k+ on it to track it if there was an M3 available. Especially since there are much better track cars for that amount of money.

[DinanM3atl]

I mean simply that most people would not buy a 335 and spend 10, 20, or 30k+ on it to track it if there was an M3 available. Especially since there are much better track cars for that amount of money.

way to back down. Good job. Talk all that shit and call me dumb and then post that.

Why do you need to spend 10,000 dollars? You can track it out of the box. BMWs make cars that handle out of the box. Even a fucking 328 handles awesome. Hell a 318 handles awesome too just no power. All you need is 375 dollars. A Helmet and pay for gas. That is it!.

Ready to track!

I can outdrive an e92 M3 with a bad driver. So do I need to spend 20,000 dollars on track parts? No. Means I am a poser and I will still be slower.

Faster Driver is better than a fast car. ANYDAY

[man]

way to back down. Good job. Talk all that shit and call me dumb and then post that.

Why do you need to spend 10,000 dollars? You can track it out of the box. BMWs make cars that handle out of the box. Even a fucking 328 handles awesome. Hell a 318 handles awesome too just no power.

I can outdrive an e92 M3 with a bad driver. So do I need to spend 20,000 dollars on track parts? No. Means I am a poser and I will still be slower.

Faster Driver is better than a fast car. ANYDAY

Back down? Is this a joke? You're the one making this an e-fight. You are the one with the superiority complex who called me a moron and a "fuck" (but of course I'm the shit talker because I called you dumb :rolleyes: )

You're pathetic, man. I've read many of your posts and you have proven your immaturity time and time again. You try to make a fight out of everything, and it's always over BMW. I bet if you were with a girl and she said she didn't like your car you'd kick her to the curb wouldn't you? Hell she wouldn't even have to say it about your car, it could be any BMW.

[DinanM3atl]

Back down? Is this a joke? You're the one making this an e-fight. You are the one with the superiority complex who called me a moron and a "fuck" (but of course I'm the shit talker because I called you dumb :rolleyes: )

You're pathetic, man. I've read many of your posts and you have proven your immaturity time and time again. You try to make a fight out of everything, and it's always over BMW. I bet if you were with a girl and she said she didn't like your car you'd kick her to the curb wouldn't you? Hell she wouldn't even have to say it about your car, it could be any BMW.

Yah. I beat my fiancee all the time. You know me so well!

Definitely pathetic! You have me pinned to a T!


I don't believe I name called till you called me dumb.

[OneSlow5pt0]

people buy BMWs not cause their fast or handle good,its because people want to be like rich people,and thats what they drive.....

[man]

Yah. I beat my fiancee all the time. You know me so well!

Definitely pathetic! You have me pinned to a T!


I don't believe I name called till you called me dumb.

Then let's go back, as it seems your memory escapes you.

"I had to come back for this dumbass comment.

BMW owners MORON!!!!"

[man]

people buy BMWs not cause their fast or handle good,its because people want to be like rich people,and thats what they drive.....

haha

[HatchHero]

japs got the shit on lock!!!

[BlkCD5]

anybody care to let me test drive their Bmw? :D

[ash7]

BTW, what's going to happen when the IS-F comes out next year with over 400 NA HP???? Is BMW going to go QUAD turbo on us to keep up????? :lmfao:

What's going to happen is there is going to be another poll, and everyone will talk about how awesome toyota is [for the exact same reasons you've outlined here].

NA FTMFW any day of the week

-jonathan

[xlilvi3tx]

lexus over bmw allday anyday everyday

[Mike Lowrey]

He is right. Nice try but he is right ;)

Actually, I do not agree. I have an alternate theory. One that does not include the conspirasy of making recyclable cars. :goodjob:


Many auto makers are going to synthetic oils and extended service lengths. Is this for the better? No. Cars are recyclable now. If you truly wait 15,000 miles between oil changes you are doing damage to your engine. It DOES NOT last that long.

Actually synthetic oil WILL last that long, but regular oil will not. As the lubrication in the engine improves you should be able to go longer intervals before changing the oil. This is provided that the addatives also last long enough, and the filtering of the oil is efficient enough.


Most automakers have "lifetime" tranny fluid and diff fluid. "Lifetime" is the life of the car. Not your lifetime. If you drive your car and never change your auto tranny fluid it will break prematurely. Funny how a 1988 535i with automatic and 300,000 miles still works great.(BMW used to say change ever 30,000 miles) 2002 540i the automatic will fail between 100,000 and 120,000 miles. Only thing changed is the fluid is "lifetime" and the dealer wont even change it.

BMW uses plastic end caps on radiators. They have for 30 years. They break every 80,000 miles. They know they break. Why not make them out of aluminum? Then they won't break.

All the rubber bushings. You could use Urethane(70a) and it is only marginally stiffer(most people would never notice) and then never replace rubber bushings. Why don't they do this?

How come my 1989 325i all the interior plastic is perfect. Nothing chipped or broken or damaged. My Mom's 2001 e430 Sport Mercedes breaks interior pieces all the time.

You go to a dealer and a brand new lexus/bmw/nissan/benz all have cheaper and cheaper plastics yet the cars price inflates. Why? Because they are putting electonics in and extra bullshit. He is right. My e30 runs on 1 o2 sensor and got 34 mpg on the highway. 2.5L I-6. My m3 has FOUR of them and gets 26 if it is lucky. It has 2 cats, 2 resonators and a huge muffler. All new cars do this. It is more stuff to fail and means instead of one 100 dollar 02 I need 4 of them.

My old boss was an engineer for Mercedes Benz in Germany. Engines/trans etc they want to last. That in the mind of "most" customers is the biggest thing. Will it start and run. Past that they made parts to last a certain length of time and to a certain point. BMW and Benz used to make parts 2x where the value of X was the strength the part needed to be. Now BMW and Benz make it 1x. Thus more failures.

Sorry pal but this is just how it is. Even on a camry and accord. New ones have more stupid pointless failures then any of the old ones did. The cars that are simply cars "built to last" they put in more and more bullshit.

So it is all a conspirasy then? Nice try. :goodjob:

Years ago the manufacturing process was not able to achieve the tight tolerances that they are able to meet today. What does that mean? You don't have to figure in a extremely large factor of safety in when designing the components, just to overcome the manufacturing defficiencies. You are able to use a smaller factor of safety, which saves both money and weight.

You say there are more and more plastics?! Yes, they are light-weight and cheap. Years ago they were not able to manufacture the complex shapes required for certaint parts on the car, and they were also not able to hold the tight tolerances needed. Due to advancements in these areas, plastics are able to be more widely used. Why? Because they are light and cheap. You want good gass milage while having a powerful car? You then need to have that car be a light as possible.

Oh, and your arguement on the O2 sensors? Talk to the government, not the auto makers. As the requirements for cleaner and cleaner emmissions increases, you will have things like this. You used to be able to get away with 1 O2 sensor, and 1 CAT. Now you need to have a CAT as close to the exhaust manifold as possible to heat up quickly, for clean emmissions upon startup and then you need one down-stream for further emmissions requirements. You also need an O2 sensor to make sure the CAT is functioning.

It is much simpler than the consiracy theory that you propose. :goodjob:

[DinanM3atl]

people buy BMWs not cause their fast or handle good,its because people want to be like rich people,and thats what they drive.....

Um what?

Yah thats why BMWCCA Peachtree Chapter holds 3 HPDE's a year. There are atleast 100 other chapters and they do the same. They run Auto-X and Time Trials and BMWCCA Club Racing.

Where is your data and research to prove this?

Maybe it is because people with money to spend want something nice? That could also be another reason. Just an idea.


What's going to happen is there is going to be another poll, and everyone will talk about how awesome toyota is [for the exact same reasons you've outlined here].

NA FTMFW any day of the week

-jonathan

Funny the Poll is BMW 31 and Lexus 28. Seems as though plenty of people voted BMW but then they will be made fun of and ridiculed by everyone on here ;)



Actually, I do not agree. I have an alternate theory. One that does not include the conspirasy of making recyclable cars. :goodjob:

This will be great I am sure. Where did I say it was a conspiracy? Can't seem to find that. I think you don't understand that a car dealer and a car maker are in the business to MAKE MONEY! Service makes a large large large portion of the dealers profits. If you don't understand this I cannot help you.



Actually synthetic oil WILL last that long, but regular oil will not. As the lubrication in the engine improves you should be able to go longer intervals before changing the oil. This is provided that the addatives also last long enough, and the filtering of the oil is efficient enough.

Hmmm. They use the same paper filters and spin on filters they have been using for 40 years. But damn the oil will last 15,000 miles. I can't tell you how many cars that are running on factory 15K Oil intervals and I have had to take PIECES of oil filter out of the housing or the spin on filter is just filled with a paper smoothie.

The oil will start to break down. It is a TON of heat cycles and a lot of stop and go and hi-rev driving over 15,000 miles. I have seen a motor at 65,000 miles that went on factory 15,000 mile changes and it had so much sludge it had to be replaced. Dealer covered it obviously as it was still under warranty.

This is beyond the fact that Synthetic oil was originally designed for Jet engines for the military and then commercial air industry whichs uses a different type of lubrication system. It was and still is not technically designed for the internal combustion engine. It works, works decently well but some areas of the lubrication process, regular oil(which is what I run EXCEPT at the race track) is far superior. Do some research. Synthetic oil is not all it is cracked up to be. Kind of like Bose. Great marketing for a decent product so it becomes "AMAZING!!!!"



Years ago the manufacturing process was not able to achieve the tight tolerances that they are able to meet today. What does that mean? You don't have to figure in a extremely large factor of safety in when designing the components, just to overcome the manufacturing defficiencies. You are able to use a smaller factor of safety, which saves both money and weight.

So that means everything breaks? I don't understand. So shitty old manufacturering made a control arm bushing last for 200,000 miles on an 89 BMW but the new and improved only last 80,000 miles? That is ENGINEERED into the part.


You say there are more and more plastics?! Yes, they are light-weight and cheap. Years ago they were not able to manufacture the complex shapes required for certaint parts on the car, and they were also not able to hold the tight tolerances needed. Due to advancements in these areas, plastics are able to be more widely used. Why? Because they are light and cheap. You want good gass milage while having a powerful car? You then need to have that car be a light as possible.

Again. The old plastic parts in my older car. Hell even my old jeep didn't break but the new plastics break. They just make them thinner to "save weight" but in reality it is to save 1/2 cent per piece. They don't care if it breaks because those pieces aren't covered under warranty if YOU break them. So you buy another one.

You still fail to realize why a company exist. TO MAKE MONEY!!!


Oh, and your arguement on the O2 sensors? Talk to the government, not the auto makers. As the requirements for cleaner and cleaner emmissions increases, you will have things like this. You used to be able to get away with 1 O2 sensor, and 1 CAT. Now you need to have a CAT as close to the exhaust manifold as possible to heat up quickly, for clean emmissions upon startup and then you need one down-stream for further emmissions requirements. You also need an O2 sensor to make sure the CAT is functioning.

Ok. So that is 1 before and 1 after the cat in the header. So why do we need 4?

[DinanM3atl]

What's going to happen is there is going to be another poll, and everyone will talk about how awesome toyota is [for the exact same reasons you've outlined here].

NA FTMFW any day of the week

-jonathan

They will compare it to the e92/e90 M3... which has 400hp also!??!? OMG and it is NA...

The M3 will win it and then everyone will say "Well for the money I save on the IS-F I can make it faster". BMW only need 4L to make 412hp. Toyota needed 5 ;)

Plus it is ugly as fuck. Look at the exhaust? What fucking drunk fuck came up with this?

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2006/12/lexus_is_f_250.jpg



Plus F = Fast?

Wow! Is the Apple marketing team working with lexus? I really want it now!

[OneSlow5pt0]

i like the exhaust.........but u sound as bad as the PS3 fanboys

[d993s]

Don't argue with gator fans; their inbreeding causes lack of comprehension, and therefore render them ignorant to most facts. (uh, I mean the conspirasy :rolleyes: )

[DinanM3atl]

i like the exhaust.........but u sound as bad as the PS3 fanboys


Because that car is ugly as fuck I sound like a PS3 fanboy. Makes no sense.

[GDuty5_Chic]

had to vote bmw

[ISAtlanta300]

They will compare it to the e92/e90 M3... which has 400hp also!??!? OMG and it is NA...

The M3 will win it and then everyone will say "Well for the money I save on the IS-F I can make it faster". BMW only need 4L to make 412hp. Toyota needed 5 ;)

Plus it is ugly as fuck. Look at the exhaust? What fucking drunk fuck came up with this?

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2006/12/lexus_is_f_250.jpg




Plus F = Fast?

Wow! Is the Apple marketing team working with lexus? I really want it now!

that's all subjective of course. The new BMW is ugly to many people as well.

And yes, they will probably compare it against the new M3.

But how do you know the M3 will win it? What makes you think it won't be faster? It is all speculation at the moment and neither me nor you know jack shit.

And yes, F. Should they have called it IS-M then??? LOL



I still don't understand your dislike or 'hate' towards the IS... but whatever gives you a hard-on.....

[BlkCD5]

motion to close thread? Obviously its going nowhere and each individual is in their own mindset, although some here are not extremists.

[Jaimecbr900]

motion to close thread? Obviously its going nowhere and each individual is in their own mindset, although some here are not extremists.

You're right. This has served it's purpose to show that people can't have their opinions about BMW's......a BMW "owner" has to give it to you.....:rolleyes: ;)