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kilpatty43
06-28-2005, 07:03 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/bush_administration

Bush: Bloodshed in Iraq Is 'Worth It'
AP - 56 minutes ago
FORT BRAGG, N.C. - President Bush on Tuesday appealed for the nation's patience for "difficult and dangerous" work ahead in Iraq, hoping a backdrop of U.S. troops and a reminder of Iraq's revived sovereignty would help him reclaim control of an issue that has eroded his popularity. In an evening address at an Army base that has 9,300 troops in Iraq, Bush was acknowledging the toll of the 27-month-old war. At the same time, he aimed to persuade skeptical Americans that his strategy for victory needed only time — not any changes — to be successful.

yeah he thinks its worth it until its someone he loves that goes missing or gets killed

Julio
06-28-2005, 07:30 PM
So that person that you love or went missing was he forced to join the military ?

just curious.

kilpatty43
06-28-2005, 07:45 PM
no he wasnt forced...it was family tradition though...but he made his choice...after his tour in iraq his service was over...he wouldve completed his 8 years

Ex_Vtec_Girl
06-28-2005, 07:49 PM
you hope bush rots in hell? isn't that statement a little strong??? i understand you're upset because you lost somebody over there...a lot of people in this country have, but i think you're being a little harsh. god only knows what the hell would have happened in this country if we wouldn't have gone over there. bush is doing what he thinks is right & he obviously has good reasons for it or we wouldn't still be there. just my :2cents:

Leisa
06-28-2005, 08:22 PM
^^^agreed 100%

quickdodge®
06-28-2005, 08:52 PM
^^^ Agreed with Leisa 100%. Later, QD.

dereksi
06-28-2005, 09:06 PM
you woouldnt say that if we didnt go over there and a building you or your family is in that gets bombed. We didnt start this but we WILL finish it.

kilpatty43
06-28-2005, 09:17 PM
ok so maybe my opinion was a little harsh but after seeing that headline i was furious...for obvious reasons...however i do agree with why we went over there in the first place...but i dont think we should still be tehre...everyday on the news you hear about dozens of troops being killed...not to mention the missing ones and prisoners that the majority of the country has no clue about...

Ex_Vtec_Girl
06-28-2005, 09:57 PM
correct me if i'm wrong, but it's my understanding that we're still over there because there are still bad guys left who have the potential to cause more damage to our country.

again, i understand why people are upset & i agree that we're losing way more soldiers than we should, but as julio brought up, those soldiers weren't forced to join, they weren't drafted. they're serving our country because they choose to. i appreciate that greatly, but as i said earlier, there's obviously a good reason we're still over there.

if bush was so horrible for what's going on, he wouldn't have been re-elected.

absolude
06-28-2005, 10:13 PM
I think Bush's propaganda machine and the media have been extremely effective at distracting people from whats really important. You ^ mentioned there are "bad" guys over in Iraq who would hurt us if given the opportunity- but look at the facts: Iraq has NO WOMD! The countries we should really be concerned about are gathering munitions together to throw down the US. What about North Korea? They have the technology and capability to create WOMD, and they even admit to having them. Russia- anyone? While people are so caught up with the "war" in Iraq, there are serious threats with actual arms that are rising up against our country....

blacknightteg
06-28-2005, 10:20 PM
like i said on the EM forum, i never really have liked bush nore really his ideals. i thought it was the smart thing to do to hun the taliban and osama bin ladin since they were the ones that fucked up our country but i dont really believe that it was the right thing to go over to iraq and fuck up that country, yes they might have been a threat to certain countries over there, but wasnt it an obvious kick in the balls when the supposed reason that we went over there was for wmd;s and then we didnt find a damn thing over there? im sorry but my opinion is that the whole reason that we went over there was because bush jus was trying to do what his dad couldnt do

tony
06-28-2005, 10:33 PM
This is the reason I've just stopped watching the news, too depressing. I know a few soldiers and I'll be joining the reserves soon myself, generally most see it as their duty whether they agree or not. The soldiers I've met and talked to aren't concerned with whether Iraq had WOMD's, their concern is completing the mission at hand and coming home safely. Usually its hard for people who aren't in the military to understand.

SaraX5
06-28-2005, 11:33 PM
i totally agree with blacknightteg....
I understand why you're upset and why you say you hate Bush but so many people during this have lost loved ones from both sides and yeah it sucks but thats how politics go. Bush wont back down till he gets the oil and no this isn't a war against terrorism for whoever who posted that we would be in danger if we didn't go to war because Iraq isn't the cause of 9/11, its TERRORIST/EXTREMIST GROUPS!! Whoever thinks that peoples lives are worth losing in this war obviously values oil over peoples lives

tony
06-28-2005, 11:43 PM
So you really think Saddam was innocent in all of this and everything was going perfect in Iraq?

blacknightteg
06-29-2005, 12:00 AM
So you really think Saddam was innocent in all of this and everything was going perfect in Iraq?


no i odnt think that he was completely innocent, but i also dont think that the way that bush went about the ways that he did were good either. the man after 9/11 went on a "hunt down all bad people" rampage across the world from raising cane about north korea to this stupid shit in Iraq. fuck dude, there were NO weapons of mass destruction in the country and ill be damned if people say that they got rid of them , if there were wepons of mass destruction unless they some how transported them to another country, there is no way damn weapons could dissappear like taht, im sorry but like i have said before, the whole reason we went inot iraq was BOGUS and just an excuse to finish wat his fucked up father started

tony
06-29-2005, 12:13 AM
Honestly, just in my opinion someone had to go after 9/11.. we couldn't catch bin laden so we go after the next biggest target. Is it right? Probably not but that is just politics, it will never change. I hope nobody thinks that we would be out of Iraq by now if John Kerry was elected.. so can you really point the finger at Bush?

One thing I don't agree with is expecting iraq to take on our values of democracy, we tried the same thing with vietnam and it was a complete failure.

blacknightteg
06-29-2005, 12:25 AM
no i know that we wouldnt have been out of iraq by now if kerry were elected but i know for a damn fact we wouldnt be in there for as long as i can be bush is goin to keep our ass's in tehre comming up with a new fucking excuse ever 6 months.....have you not notice how bush is, its his way or the high way, i mean shit i could drag religion into this cuz thats almost like wat ever fucking decision is based on, yeah he's got a strong faith, so do a lot of people, but there aint no damn reason it has to be an influence when not half the world is christian

chuck
06-29-2005, 09:21 AM
more police die here in the states each day than soldiers over there in "war".....i'll stick with those stats any day. i'd also rather stay a step ahead of the war, being on the offensive rather than a step behind in a constant defensive mode. we haven't had any of the war on US soil even though we were next in line to go down, we stood our ground and let 'them' know that we wouldn't put up with their shit any longer.

sorry about your friend and all but i'll support bush for doing his job...or should we just back off and put up welcome signs for the forign air forces that want our whole country dead???

chuck
06-29-2005, 09:37 AM
...everyday on the news you hear about dozens of troops being killed...
other than the one big helicopter accident that was caused by bad weather that could have just as easily happened in training over here, can you find me one article from one day that talks about 12 or more troops dying in a day??...unless by dozen you meant 3 or 4....or unless by troops you weren't weren't talking about the US troops.

or if you want you can even show me where 12 have died in a week...

maybe i'm just watching the wrong news channel, or maybe you might want to reconsider your statements...please fill me in if i have been misinformed

Dragonfly5338
06-29-2005, 10:03 AM
It's all Teddy Roosevelt's fault, actually. His Corollary to the Monroe Doctorine turned the US into the world police force we are now. So fuck Bush and fuck Teddy! :tongue:

absolude
06-29-2005, 10:27 AM
^word!
And to being on the offensive instead of the defensive- that could be construed as TERRORISM!!! Why is is that our way is the right way? Its impossible to say whether or not things would be radically different if Kerry were cleaning up this mess- but as someone did say earlier, this is just an unfinished vendetta. Big Bush never could bring Saddam down, so he charged good ole "Dubya" to take care of it. And yeah- Bush failed to capture Osama Bin Laden, so he decided to take out another prominent figure as to not lose face.
And I dunno- people can say all they want about Saddam Hussein being all evil and what not, but in my lifetime the only person to actually strike against the US has been Osama Bin Laden. That would put him at the head of my most wanted list.... But where is he now? No one knows. Isn't that kinda scary?
I think the peeps in Iraq are f*ckin nuts. Our soldiers are fighting a losing battle over there because it's not really war. War has rules, but neither side is following any rules currently. We can't tell who the combatants are and who aren't. We declared war on them- but who are we fighting? As Bush has labeled it innumerously- its a war on "Terrorism", but how can you have a war on a concept? Perhaps I give him or his administration too much credit, but by labeling it so, it allows for a shift in who the actual target is. Last week Afghanistan, this week Iraq, next week- who knows?

MachNU
06-29-2005, 12:36 PM
Just my 2cents but it was a smart thing to take down Iraq and Saddam. Liek one person onces said if Saddam is so innocent and had no WOMD why did he hide and why was he also moving a certain cargo around for no one to find. He may or may not have had WOMD to attack the US but he might have. To me its like if someone mugs you with a gun in there pocket that you cant see. 50/50 says it is or it isnt so what would you do. If Kerry would have won (thank god he didnt) we would have been fucked. Just like in 92 when Osama attacked the US killing hundreds Clintion that left wing liberal cocksucker turns and makes a peace treaty with Iraq and Saddam, and kerry was on the same boat with that. But this time when Saddam attacks the US killing hundreds Bush doesnt make a peace treaty he attacks them back 10 fold. So to me it his nothing more of a 50/50 war becuase no one can say for real what would have or could have happened. Though i believe the war is the right thing, and i do fill for the soldiers over there even though my cousin jsut got back from there, are doing the right thing.

But like i siad my 2 cents

Big Baller
06-29-2005, 12:39 PM
People should learn to think for themselves. Most of what I have just read is crap that has been dished out by the liberal news media. If it’s not the news media it’s our liberal education system.

Christ people, THINK FOR YOURSELVES

Matt

If this offends you and you find yourself thinking (is he talking about me) then yes I am talking about you.

civic95
06-29-2005, 12:47 PM
I think Bush's propaganda machine and the media have been extremely effective at distracting people from whats really important. You ^ mentioned there are "bad" guys over in Iraq who would hurt us if given the opportunity- but look at the facts: Iraq has NO WOMD! The countries we should really be concerned about are gathering munitions together to throw down the US. What about North Korea? They have the technology and capability to create WOMD, and they even admit to having them. Russia- anyone? While people are so caught up with the "war" in Iraq, there are serious threats with actual arms that are rising up against our country....


Gosh I really hate to get into this again, but I will anyway. Iraq has no WMD's, or none that have been found. Okay, I'll give you that. On the other hand the Taliban has flocked to that region. It's a lot better for us that they go to Iraq and plan to attack our troops than it is for them to come onto our soil to carry out attacks. Atleast our troops are trained, and have weapons vs: a bunch of everyday citizens. Not to mention that whole region is breed to hate westernization. It's a lot easier to hate something you've never seen and only been told lies about. Now, if you make 1 country a free country what happens? It's called the jones. When your neighbor pulls up in a ferarri, you want one too. If that region has 1 free country, the neighboring countries will start to see the positive effects, and the freedoms that come with democracy. Eventually they will want the same, and start to second guess the brainwashing thats instilled in them. So yes we are sacraficing our soldiers lives. But who can say that it will not save hundred of thousands of lives of our citizens in the future. What about the millions of people that's lives will change because of this? You can be selfish, and only care about the US, but our soldiers have had the chance to experience FREEDOM. So many others never have, and never will experience that. A life is a life, it doesn't matter what country your from. We are all on this planet together. The state of every country has it's effects on all the others.

B16a2 Civic
06-29-2005, 12:55 PM
this shit is ridiculous, i agree it was good to respond to 9/11...but um Osama bombed us, not Sudam.....but Sudam has been a threat anyway....but i can tell you now it cant be because of the oil...cause im still payin too damn much just to drive a week....but War is War, weather you like ir ot nor, the brave soilders are over there protecting peace, not just for Amercia but protecting peace for those who cannot fight.....i support our soilders...and i hope Bush doesn't rot in hell, no president has ever been perfect... from teh 1st to whatever # we're on now

Big Baller
06-29-2005, 12:56 PM
Gosh I really hate to get into this again, but I will anyway. Iraq has no WMD's, or none that have been found. Okay, I'll give you that. On the other hand the Taliban has flocked to that region. It's a lot better for us that they go to Iraq and plan to attack our troops than it is for them to come onto our soil to carry out attacks. Atleast our troops are trained, and have weapons vs: a bunch of everyday citizens. Not to mention that whole region is breed to hate westernization. It's a lot easier to hate something you've never seen and only been told lies about. Now, if you make 1 country a free country what happens? It's called the jones. When your neighbor pulls up in a ferarri, you want one too. If that region has 1 free country, the neighboring countries will start to see the positive effects, and the freedoms that come with democracy. Eventually they will want the same, and start to second guess the brainwashing thats instilled in them. So yes we are sacraficing our soldiers lives. But who can say that it will not save hundred of thousands of lives of our citizens in the future. What about the millions of people that's lives will change because of this? You can be selfish, and only care about the US, but our soldiers have had the chance to experience FREEDOM. So many others never have, and never will experience that. A life is a life, it doesn't matter what country your from. We are all on this planet together. The state of every country has it's effects on all the others.


Very nice. I could not possibly agree more.

BadInBlue
06-29-2005, 01:11 PM
i've noticed a lot of people hate bush but i believe its because they have not realized he saved your ass. thats the problem with america these days we are raising a world full of pussies.(scared to fight back..too many damn liberals) The fact is that you would only be hating another president if it wasn't bush. Or are we going to allow a foreign country to committ terroristic acts on our country. something had to be done bush took action and is justified in the choices he makes for our country....if you dont like it get the hell out...my 2 cents

MachNU
06-29-2005, 01:34 PM
Go di love the oil part of this war....since we seem to be over there solely for the oil yet we still continue to drill in the gulf which supplys 20-40% of the US oil supply and we are looking into putting more effort into drilling in alaska for the oil. THEN if we ever ran OUT of oil we wouldnt attack some other country for theres we would jsut drill in Arizona which has one of the worldests largest supply on oil but we dont go for it becuase wew can jsut drill off of us soil for it. Just my thoughts.

Big Baller
06-29-2005, 02:02 PM
I'm sorry for your loss regardless of how our views differ on politics. Two of my cousins were among the first to go over, so I know what its like to worry about friends and family involved in war.

Please send my best to his family

Matt

Dragonfly5338
06-29-2005, 02:31 PM
:goodjob:
Not to mention that whole region is breed to hate westernization. It's a lot easier to hate something you've never seen and only been told lies about.

Well, not exactly. I'm not muslim so I couldn't speak for the majority of muslim people here - but in general they're not bred to hate western civilization. There's a small minority of muslim fundimentalists that hate western ideas because they differ from what they perceive as muslim beliefs. It's hard to keep a person supressed if democracy is instituted, I'll give you that. Many countries in that area have incorperated western ideas in order to help their country develop - Turkey, for one. Unfortunately, the people who were in charge of Iraq were part of that small minority. The majority of Iraqis are Shiite, not the Suni (sp?) minority that Sadaam and his people were.

But like Christian conservatives, the same goes for Muslim - to keep people following a certain way, you have to scare the hell out of them and keep them oppressed.

Anyways, I'm off my soap box. It just amazes me sometimes how ignorant Americans can be about other cultures and religions. Islam is actually very similar to Christianity - they preace peace, love and justice. Just like with any religion, when it gets into the wrong hands and gets mixed with politics, it usually ends up getting twisted in order to benifit the person in charge.

Now, back to your debate. Fuck Bush and Fuck Teddy.

SaraX5
06-29-2005, 02:53 PM
People should learn to think for themselves. Most of what I have just read is crap that has been dished out by the liberal news media. If it’s not the news media it’s our liberal education system.

Christ people, THINK FOR YOURSELVES

Matt

If this offends you and you find yourself thinking (is he talking about me) then yes I am talking about you.
PEOPLE DO THINK FOR THEMSELVES. AND YEA I DO HAVE AN EDUCATION AND THATS WHAT ALLOWS ME TO THINK FOR MYSELF AND NOT BUY INTO ALL THE BULLSHIT PEOPLE ON TV OR PEOPLE LIKE YOU SAY.
WHO GIVES A FUCK IF ANYONE IS A LIBERAL OR A CONSERVATIVE.THINK WHAT U WANT AND EVERYONE ELSE WILL THINK WHAT THEY WANT. SEEMS TO ME THAT YOURE THE ONE WHO CANT HANDLE PEOPLE HAVING THEIR OWN OPINIONS.

BY THE WAY I COULDN'T AGREE WITH U MORE DRAGONFLY. Its not that Muslims or people hate westernization but why does it matter to people whether or not that country wants to be a democracy or not. Just like people in this discussion wouldn't want to live in a theocratic regime people in other parts of the world don't want to have democratic regimes. Thats why this world is big enough for people to live in separate countries and follow rules and laws that they feel like abiding. I dont think its gonna affect Bush's sleep or anyone elses for that matter if Iraq doesnt want to be a democratic regime.

Big Baller
06-29-2005, 03:28 PM
Please stop yelling we are having a debate, if you are going to talk about politics atleast act calm and rational about it.


PEOPLE DO THINK FOR THEMSELVES. AND YEA I DO HAVE AN EDUCATION AND THATS WHAT ALLOWS ME TO THINK FOR MYSELF AND NOT BUY INTO ALL THE BULLSHIT PEOPLE ON TV OR PEOPLE LIKE YOU SAY..


Would you please tell me which part of my statement was bull shit? Was the part about the news media being liberal, or was it the part about the school system being liberal.


WHO GIVES A FUCK IF ANYONE IS A LIBERAL OR A CONSERVATIVE.THINK WHAT U WANT AND EVERYONE ELSE WILL THINK WHAT THEY WANT..

I dont give a "fuck" if you are a liberal. The problem is every time people start to talk about politics I hear the same crap over and over again, its always something someone read in the paper of saw on tv.



SEEMS TO ME THAT YOURE THE ONE WHO CANT HANDLE PEOPLE HAVING THEIR OWN OPINIONS.

I can handle people having there own opinions, but it seems to me that most people dont have there own opinions they have the opinions of their ( insert any of these teacher, parent, friend, talkshow host, news channel, newspaper etc.)

Matt(who once voted for a democrat(Roy Barnes))

C22H19N3O4
06-29-2005, 11:11 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v68/korean_teg/a344.gif

Hulud
06-30-2005, 12:09 AM
^lol

SLOWR/T
06-30-2005, 03:18 AM
im sorry but i dont think that what kilpatty43 said in the beginning was "harsh" i aggree with her. that sorry bastard has the nerve to say that the deaths of our friends and family in the war are worth it?? worth what i ask?? all i have to say is FUCK BUSH!! thats MY thoughts of that sorry piece of shit! everytime i turn on the news i either see his sorry ass or have to hear about more soldiers have died cause of a car bomb or some bull shit.

Big Baller
06-30-2005, 07:53 AM
im sorry but i dont think that what kilpatty43 said in the beginning was "harsh" i aggree with her. that sorry bastard has the nerve to say that the deaths of our friends and family in the war are worth it?? worth what i ask?? all i have to say is FUCK BUSH!! thats MY thoughts of that sorry piece of shit! everytime i turn on the news i either see his sorry ass or have to hear about more soldiers have died cause of a car bomb or some bull shit.


Worth what you ask?

National security perhaps

Freedom of a nation


I guess none of thats important to you though is it.

Why would anyone want to be free, why would you want to live in a country free of violent bombings.

Why?

blacknightteg
06-30-2005, 08:12 AM
Worth what you ask?

National security perhaps

Freedom of a nation


I guess none of thats important to you though is it.

Why would anyone want to be free, why would you want to live in a country free of violent bombings.

Why?


oh please? national secrurity? you honestly thing that what we are doing over seas in Iraq and afghanistan and wat ever country we decide to go into next is going to help our national security? thats a crock of shit, if anything its going to fuck up the security of our country even more making more and more people hate us. whether or not we go over an fuck up some foriegners this shits still prolly going to happen whether or not osama is dead alive or wat, he's still got a shit load of people following his ways n this shits gunna happen more and more and you know it, so this bull shit thats going on over in iraq should stop he should start pulling out the people, not all at once cuz i know that wouldnt work but incraments. but the point is he should start pulling them out, trying to help them have a stable government by keeping a millitary presense in my opinion is not the way to go. why the hell would freedom of a country come into this? yea the people of iraq had some hard times with sadam and his nephews as their rulers. but i still saw no immediate threat no right, to make up some damn excuse and go in there and start attacking, even in the middle of the fucking war he changed the reason we were over there. started saying that it was for the weapons of mass destruction and then he changed it up n said it was for the freedom of the people. all he was trying to do was make himself not look bad...all i know is that fucker with the big ears we call bush , who needs to fucking work on his public speaking really needs to jus fuck off

Desdicado
06-30-2005, 09:47 AM
oh please? national secrurity? you honestly thing that what we are doing over seas in Iraq and afghanistan and wat ever country we decide to go into next is going to help our national security? thats a crock of shit, if anything its going to fuck up the security of our country even more making more and more people hate us. whether or not we go over an fuck up some foriegners this shits still prolly going to happen whether or not osama is dead alive or wat, he's still got a shit load of people following his ways n this shits gunna happen more and more and you know it, so this bull shit thats going on over in iraq should stop he should start pulling out the people, not all at once cuz i know that wouldnt work but incraments. but the point is he should start pulling them out, trying to help them have a stable government by keeping a millitary presense in my opinion is not the way to go. why the hell would freedom of a country come into this? yea the people of iraq had some hard times with sadam and his nephews as their rulers. but i still saw no immediate threat no right, to make up some damn excuse and go in there and start attacking, even in the middle of the fucking war he changed the reason we were over there. started saying that it was for the weapons of mass destruction and then he changed it up n said it was for the freedom of the people. all he was trying to do was make himself not look bad...all i know is that fucker with the big ears we call bush , who needs to fucking work on his public speaking really needs to jus fuck off


I'm new here, so I'm just going to ask a couple of quick questions.

1) Since we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, have we experienced any terrorist attacks on our home soil?

2) Did Saddam not plan to assassinate an American President in 1991? He did, it was George Bush Sr. For that reason, in and of itself, we should have taken him down.

3) Albania, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Rwanda, Haiti, Darfur, Liberia, and Kosova; all these places posed no direct threat to use, yet we still sent troops there to help people rebuild a country and some of our troops died there. What's the difference between those countries and Iraq? Maybe its the President who ordered them? Sometimes being the biggest dog on the block means actually doing the right thing, irregardless if it is in your own best interest.

4) We have invaded a country larger than the State of California. Most of that country is covered in desert, some places that were thought totally impassable to humans up until the first Gulf War (read about the Hail Mary play one of our Armored Cav divisions pulled through the Western Desert). Now you want to tell me that in a handful of years we scoured almost 170,000 square miles of mostly inhospitable and uninhabited land with a fine toothed comb? I doubt that. Heck, we're still finding buried tanks and airplanes, not to mention munitions dumps and depots in the desert that were hidden. In fact, in 50 years people will probably still be digging up MiG-29s and T-72s. Fact of that matter is this is a COUNTRY we've invaded, its a rather large place with tons of hiding places. Even if there aren't any there now, we know he had them, we know he used them. That means were he to get them again, he'd use them again. That, in and of itself, to me, is justification enough. Course maybe 100,000 dead Kurds and 200,000 dead Sunni's mean nothing to you. Then there is that little matter of those Russian soldiers helping the Iraqis to dismantle and transport something over the border to Syria which promptly disappeared. I wonder what that was. I've lived in Saudi which has deserts very similar to Iraq, if you want to disappear there, you can. It's very easy.

5) This war was not Bush's idea. Both Bush Sr and Clinton had plans drawn up for the invasion of Iraq, the removal of Saddam Hussien has been a priority of every American President since 91. All we needed was the justification after Bush Sr. dropped the ball and failed to help the Shi'a uprising. We have the justification, we're there, he's out, and hopefully we'll start another Republic in the ME.

6) In the end history will judge us by our actions. Time will tell if what we did was right or not, not the 7 o'clock news and the liberal media. Nation building is a long term thing. Look how long it took us to get Japan and Germany back on their feet. Heck, look out how many US servicemen were killed there after the war was over (its a far larger number than Iraq, fyi).

lemansz
06-30-2005, 10:16 AM
Death, is just a chance you take when you join the MILITARY.

The military serves one purpose, to fight and die.

lemansz
06-30-2005, 10:21 AM
if anything its going to fuck up the security of our country even more making more and more people hate us.

um, hello, you need to wake up. take a trip around the world. Long before any of these invasions, muslims and other religions, are born and bred to do one thing.

hate americans.
find americans
kill americans.

Did you know that over 1/3 of the attacks in iraq right now are caused by other nationalities?

sirians, iranians, afganies, etc.

they are travelign to where ever americans are and fighting them.

It is much easier for them to fight us because we are in their neighborhood.

guess what happenes when we leave their neighborhood?

They come to OUR neighborhood.


Americans so easily believe the LIBERAL press. No one really knows whats going on over there but the military.

lemansz
06-30-2005, 10:24 AM
I'm new here, so I'm just going to ask a couple of quick questions.

1) Since we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq, have we experienced any terrorist attacks on our home soil?
......................................


6) In the end history will judge us by our actions. Time will tell if what we did was right or not, not the 7 o'clock news and the liberal media. Nation building is a long term thing. Look how long it took us to get Japan and Germany back on their feet. Heck, look out how many US servicemen were killed there after the war was over (its a far larger number than Iraq, fyi).

BOOM!

well put, damn well put.

Big Baller
06-30-2005, 10:52 AM
Very very well put.

Dragonfly5338
06-30-2005, 10:54 AM
um, hello, you need to wake up. take a trip around the world. Long before any of these invasions, muslims and other religions, are born and bred to do one thing.

hate americans.
find americans
kill americans.

Did you know that over 1/3 of the attacks in iraq right now are caused by other nationalities?

sirians, iranians, afganies, etc.

they are travelign to where ever americans are and fighting them.

It is much easier for them to fight us because we are in their neighborhood.

guess what happenes when we leave their neighborhood?

They come to OUR neighborhood.


Americans so easily believe the LIBERAL press. No one really knows whats going on over there but the military.

*sigh*

People like you are where ignorance starts. MUSLIM PEOPLE ARE NOT BRED TO HATE WESTERNERS AND/OR AMERICANS. We bring that reputation apon ourselves. Why do you think countries hate us??? Because many of them are proud of their culture and dislike western influence - they want things the way they have always been. And BOOM - here we come with our guns and our tanks saying "Sorry. You have to change. Democracy or die. Because we said so, and our guns our bigger." So they fight back, doing what they can to offer resistance, maybe even yes - resorting to terrorism as a protest. THEN AGAIN - think about how you would react if somebody told you "NOPE - you can't practice Christianity anymore, it's wrong - our way is right. And we'll shoot you if you don't." Hmm.. wait, gosh, that's been a theme throughout human history - hasn't it?

The Islamic faith is tied to their government. This is where people get confused easily, since ours is completely seperate. What do you think would happen to this country if the right-wing militant christian brigade took control of our government too. It would be the same situation. Since they are a slim minority, they have to use fear tactics in order to hold power.

By the way - what "other faiths" are "bred to hate americans, find americans, kill americans"? You seriously need to take a class on world religions. You have no idea what they're about. :)

Big Baller
06-30-2005, 11:01 AM
Oh yes, Lemanz you should go take a class at a "liberal" arts college on world religion. That would really change your views. (This was sarcasim in case it was lost on anyone)


Val, do you actually think that we go running into these countries with guns blazing just for the sake of democracy, if you do then I'm sorry maybe you are the one that should be continuing their education.

Matt

Dragonfly5338
06-30-2005, 11:08 AM
Oh yes, Lemanz you should go take a class at a "liberal" arts college on world religion. That would really change your views.


Val, do you actually think that we go running into these countries with guns blazing just for the sake of democracy, if you do then I'm sorry maybe you are the one that should be continuing their education.

Matt

LoL, you're missing the point. It was a made up example. I'm talking about religion and the dude saying Islam and other faiths are bred to kill Americans. :p

I don't care about Bush anyways. He's an idiot. I've already stated that, no need to reiterate. :)

The dude has no idea what Islam - or any other faith, for that matter- is about, even a liberal class would help.

lemansz
06-30-2005, 11:14 AM
val val val

go back to sewing, and reproducing.

leave the thinking and voting to others.

Dragonfly5338
06-30-2005, 11:19 AM
val val val

go back to sewing, and reproducing.

leave the thinking and voting to others.

LOL aren't you cute? Nice trying to piss me off, tho. Stupid people don't make me angry. I just pity them. ;)

Big Baller
06-30-2005, 11:28 AM
Shhhhh

Tell her to bake you a pie. :goodjob:

Dragonfly5338
06-30-2005, 11:31 AM
:headslap:

I give up. :rolleyes:

Big Baller
06-30-2005, 11:38 AM
I won

Dragonfly5338
06-30-2005, 03:17 PM
LOL grats. At least I didn't lose to the "fuck dem arabs" moron. Props. :goodjob:

Desdicado
06-30-2005, 03:59 PM
Arabs and Persians are no different thank Yankees and Southerners, or Germans and French.

They're just people.

What has happened though is a perfect example of what happens when xenophobes get a hold of certain parts of a religion and meld it to their own means. Extremists can do to Christianity the exact same thing they did to Islam. In fact, if you review world history, pretty much every religion, at one point or another, has been under the control of their respective hard liners and used as a tool for ill. Thats the nature of human beings. My uncle is a muslim (Persian), and he's killed far fewer people than some of the members of the otherside of my family (Hard line Irish Catholics straight out of Derry). Heck, at one point Derry and Belfast were just as bad as Baghdad Tikrit, maybe even worse (right after the Easter Uprising or later on BLoody Sunday). Nobody judges all Catholics (or even all Irish) by the actions of the Unionists and Republicans, I can extend the same respect to other people's and religions.

Judge not the group, but the individuals.

Dragonfly5338
06-30-2005, 05:39 PM
Arabs and Persians are no different thank Yankees and Southerners, or Germans and French.

They're just people.

What has happened though is a perfect example of what happens when xenophobes get a hold of certain parts of a religion and meld it to their own means. Extremists can do to Christianity the exact same thing they did to Islam. In fact, if you review world history, pretty much every religion, at one point or another, has been under the control of their respective hard liners and used as a tool for ill. Thats the nature of human beings. My uncle is a muslim (Persian), and he's killed far fewer people than some of the members of the otherside of my family (Hard line Irish Catholics straight out of Derry). Heck, at one point Derry and Belfast were just as bad as Baghdad Tikrit, maybe even worse (right after the Easter Uprising or later on BLoody Sunday). Nobody judges all Catholics (or even all Irish) by the actions of the Unionists and Republicans, I can extend the same respect to other people's and religions.

Judge not the group, but the individuals.

x2 man. +1 for you.

quickdodge®
06-30-2005, 06:17 PM
Long before any of these invasions, muslims and other religions, are born and bred to do one thing.

hate americans.
find americans
kill americans.

You must be stupid.

Too bad there isn't a group out there that is born and bred to:

hate you.
find you
kill you.

Later, QD.

quickdodge®
06-30-2005, 06:19 PM
leave the thinking and voting to others.

You know of anyone? Later, QD.

Brett
06-30-2005, 09:48 PM
I personally agree 100% with what we are doing in IRAQ. I get so sick of dumb ass people who dont do any research before making statements. The "We are there for the oil" line gets old so damn quick. We have yet to take any of thier oil, and we have made it quite clear to the arab world that we will not take the oil, us taking the oil would cause more shit then we already have on us now. As far as the war look at it this way, Al Quida brought the war to the U.S in 1991/92 ( Sorry cant remember what year it was ) when the World Trade Center was bombed. The whole idea of that day was to bring one tower down and by doing that, he was hoping it would hit the 2nd tower and bring them both down, and when he was arrested he was quoted as saying "We will be back, and next time we will do it right"......

Fast foward to the late '90's when our Navy ship was hit by a suicide bomber killing a dozen or more of our service man, at the time Clinton was in office, and he did little to nothing to go after Bin Laden and Al Quida.... and this is when they hit one of our navy warships. Instead he sent the message to Al Quida that the U.S will take it and not do shit.

2001... We all know all to well what happened.... But this time we had a President that had the balls to go after Al Quida and hit them full force. And put Bin Laden on the run, and we have managed to greatly weaken thier organization.....

Now as far as IRAQ goes, There are a few pro's to what we are doing over there. First.... As it was said earlier... We give the IRAQ people thier freedom, and as they get more and more of a taste for it, the people ( As they are now ) will get sick of the innsurgants killing the troops and innoscent people there, and they will stand up and retake what is due to them, and that is THIER FREEDOM. Once they get a taste of it, other middle eastern countries will want it to. It is cruscial to the future of this country and every democratic country that the middle east gets this taste and makes the changes. Al Quida is on the run and they have few supporters now and the attacks we see there now are desperate attempts to discourage the new free life they have. By us going to IRAQ we have brought the "War" to Al Quida and its supporters instead of Al Quida being able to bring the war back to U.S soil.

Did Saddam have WMD's when we finally got in there this time and took him out, No... But the man had fucking 11 years without weapons inspectors to get his stuff out, and most likley moved it to Iran. The proof is there people that he had them at one time, he used them on his own people!! Used nerve gas and killed tens of thousands of people just because they did not agree with him. IRAQ stood for EVERYTHING bad in humanity. ( The government not its people ). He killed tens of thousands of his own people, buried them in mass graves, DID use WMD's ( And if he would use them on his own people, do you really think he would not sell them, or did not sell them to Al Quida to use against the U.S or U.S interests? ) You people seem to not see the big picture here, Yu all think just because the weapons where not there when we arrived that he didnt have them, and that IRAQ and its government was not a major threat to the U.S. He supported terrorism, so you can bet he sold WMDs to them as well. With them being on the border if IRAN you have terrorists moving between countries training and moving supplies that can be used to hit U.S targets and hit U.S interests.

Us being there is giving greater security to us and the region then we have ever seen. YES our troops are dying, and any one troop that looses a life is one to many, but almost 4,000 people died the day this country was attacked in 2001, and these people did nothing wrong except one thing in the eyes of Al Quida, and that is... They where American, and for that, they needed to die.

So fuck yeah we did the right thing to bring the war to them, because for every roadside bomb you hear about is one less bomb you would fear being planted on our own soil. The troops are training the IRAQ people to defend themselves and thier country, and when that is done we will pull out. But this is crucial that they get thier freedom and then the rest of the middle east gets the same....... Less places then for terrorists to hide and train, and plot.

But make no mistake, some of the comments in this thread are down right dumb as fuck!! Like the one that said "Muslims are bred to hate the U.S" that is the stupidest statement I have ever heard.... Do you know anything about Muslims? They are a religion that is a peaceful religion and the Quran preaches peace, The muslims that Al Quida have, etc... are MUSLIM EXTREMEST, they are not a part of the true muslim world, and they have twisted the words of the Quran to fit what they see fit and use that to teach thier followers the hatred that they have for us and all western society. Its not only us they hate, its what we stand for, the freedom and democracy. Dont put all muslims and Arabs into that theory.

Ex_Vtec_Girl
06-30-2005, 11:07 PM
damn brett :bigok: :bow: :yay:

Brett
06-30-2005, 11:08 PM
Wait for Jaimies reply, He started his at 11:53 and its still not posted...LOL. His will be a fucking novel im sure...LOL

Ex_Vtec_Girl
06-30-2005, 11:10 PM
oh, i just skimmed yours...i'm too lazy & too tired to read all that, but what i got out of it was very well said :)

Brett
06-30-2005, 11:17 PM
Damn Jaimie, Its been over 15 minutes of you replying, so where is your reply? You dont need to make this 10 pages long brotha!! HA HA HA

Jaimecbr900
06-30-2005, 11:26 PM
Is there a reason why yall biotches didn't tell me about this discussion????? :smilefu:

There have been some very intelligent remarks made in a topic that actually was started as an understandable rant from a broken hearted young lady.

Here's my :2cents: as I always have :2cents: to say:

1. People incorrectly combine the chase for Ossamah and the Iraq war together. Their only connection is the fact that they are occuring concurrently and in the same region of the world.

2. If we pull out prematurely, Iraq will implode. Right now they are not strong enough to defend themselves. The total rebuild of a country can't happen overnight. It doesn't work that way. Bush is on TV justifying it still because it's POLITICS, ie. PR and necessary because of all the misinformed people out there. This thread is a very good micro sample of how the public perceives everything. Many people buy the whole media liberalism. Hook, line, and sinker. Even if it clearly doesn't make sense. Why do you think that the moniker of "war for oil" has gone by the wayside? Cause it turned out to be stupid now. That's all you used to hear about, "war for oil, war for oil, war for oil".

The same way pulling out our troops prematurely would be like letting grass grow on it's own. Eventually weeds will come back if you don't keep picking them out. Well, right now Iraq can't weed on their own just yet. If we leave, the weeds will quickly take over much in the same way Saddam did years ago....thru scare tactics via a coop. It will be like declaring Anarchy. Who do yall think is the strongest? Terrorists that are well funded, trained, and totally dedicated to their cause or freshly liberated newbies who are still looking over their shoulder because they can't believe that Saddam is TRULY gone????

Jaimecbr900
06-30-2005, 11:28 PM
Damn Jaimie, Its been over 15 minutes of you replying, so where is your reply? You dont need to make this 10 pages long brotha!! HA HA HA


:lmfao:

I got started and then had to edit a few times. Just when I thought I was done, I hit the wrong button and freaking erased everything.

I had a good one about 15 mins ago.....what I ended up posting was pretty watered down. :cool:

LaurenK
07-01-2005, 07:56 AM
you hope bush rots in hell? isn't that statement a little strong??? i understand you're upset because you lost somebody over there...a lot of people in this country have, but i think you're being a little harsh. god only knows what the hell would have happened in this country if we wouldn't have gone over there. bush is doing what he thinks is right & he obviously has good reasons for it or we wouldn't still be there. just my :2cents:
AGREE...

4dmin
07-01-2005, 11:20 AM
Is there a reason why yall biotches didn't tell me about this discussion????? :smilefu:

There have been some very intelligent remarks made in a topic that actually was started as an understandable rant from a broken hearted young lady.

Here's my :2cents: as I always have :2cents: to say:

1. People incorrectly combine the chase for Ossamah and the Iraq war together. Their only connection is the fact that they are occuring concurrently and in the same region of the world.

2. If we pull out prematurely, Iraq will implode. Right now they are not strong enough to defend themselves. The total rebuild of a country can't happen overnight. It doesn't work that way. Bush is on TV justifying it still because it's POLITICS, ie. PR and necessary because of all the misinformed people out there. This thread is a very good micro sample of how the public perceives everything. Many people buy the whole media liberalism. Hook, line, and sinker. Even if it clearly doesn't make sense. Why do you think that the moniker of "war for oil" has gone by the wayside? Cause it turned out to be stupid now. That's all you used to hear about, "war for oil, war for oil, war for oil".

The same way pulling out our troops prematurely would be like letting grass grow on it's own. Eventually weeds will come back if you don't keep picking them out. Well, right now Iraq can't weed on their own just yet. If we leave, the weeds will quickly take over much in the same way Saddam did years ago....thru scare tactics via a coop. It will be like declaring Anarchy. Who do yall think is the strongest? Terrorists that are well funded, trained, and totally dedicated to their cause or freshly liberated newbies who are still looking over their shoulder because they can't believe that Saddam is TRULY gone????

sorry i haven't read this whole thread b/c i'm lazy but....

there is a connection between Osama/Iraq that was the basis that Bush used to get into Iraq. Iraq was supporting/funding terrorism. So w/ that and going against the UN inspectors was the chance for Jr. to pick where Sr. left off.

Of course we can't pull out b/c how would Bush look to the american people if we did that??? This is what keeps him in office; making it seem like we are doing the world a favor. Personally i don't think there will ever be stability in that region. You can't go in and think you can change bibical wars in a few years... not going to happen. Only thing to fix that region is ARMAGEDDON!!! Only a tree huggin hippie can think we are they liberating people(which is fucking BS)... if that was the case then we could of started on this side of the world and worked our way over.

I personally think Bush is an asshole. The only reason he did the PR stunt is b/c his ratings are dropping and people in america are disalusioned(sp?) about the war. Our economy isn't recovering, oil prices are sky high, & its the same ol story "rich get richer the poor get poorer". I support our troops but i do not support their Commander/Chief.

ps. on another note they don't care about our troops anyway, they are the same administration that sent out PHOTOCOPIED letters to dead soldiers family thanking them for the service their children provided. its amazing you don't see any of their children in iraq ;)

Jaimecbr900
07-01-2005, 11:44 AM
there is a connection between Osama/Iraq that was the basis that Bush used to get into Iraq. Iraq was supporting/funding terrorism. So w/ that and going against the UN inspectors was the chance for Jr. to pick where Sr. left off.


Absolutely there is a connection, but that's only one reason why we are there. To be honest, you hit the nail right on the head with that statement. On top of that, compound Saddam's direct vocal disdain for the U.S. and you have a big bullseye on the back of his head. It was gonna happen sooner or later. Fidel dodged that bullet, and it's only because Russia fell apart. Had they remained our mortal enemy, Fidel would be the Saddam of today.




Of course we can't pull out b/c how would Bush look to the american people if we did that??? This is what keeps him in office; making it seem like we are doing the world a favor. Personally i don't think there will ever be stability in that region.

You can't leave without some stability. They don't even have a solid working gov't yet, let alone a way to defend themselves against the extremists. We made that mistake already once when we didn't clean up after the Gulf War. This is not the time to do it again when the danger or real terrorism has been brought to this side of the world.



You can't go in and think you can change bibical wars in a few years... not going to happen. Only thing to fix that region is ARMAGEDDON!!! Only a tree huggin hippie can think we are they liberating people(which is fucking BS)... if that was the case then we could of started on this side of the world and worked our way over.


I'm willing to bet that in Iraq's millions of citizens there is far more that WANT liberation and self governing than there are people that don't. Problem is that when you are trying to reverse decades of oppression and fear, it can't happen overnight. It takes years. The Quran does NOT teach anything remotely close to what the extremists are reading into it and teaching. So therefore, this is only a "biblical" war to the extremists. Normal everyday peaceful citizens, of which is the majority, could care less about killing us. The truth is that because a dirty rat like Saddam was in power, it allowed for sewage like terrorist to walk around freely in the countryside w/o any worries simply because they harbored the same hate for the U.S. as HE did.

Kinda like an uneasy truce. He wasn't going to let them take over HIS country per se, but he would simply turn a blind eye to their activities because those activities he agreed with. IMO, that deserves the same punishment as if he had pulled the trigger himself since he indirectly did.



its amazing you don't see any of their children in iraq ;)

None of US are over there either. ;)

4dmin
07-01-2005, 11:49 AM
Quote:
its amazing you don't see any of their children in iraq



None of US are over there either. i refuse to die for someones ego but my own http://forums.importatlanta.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

and by the way if i was in charge i would of gave saddamn a WMD up his ass and taken that shit hole of a country off the map b/c the billions we are spending could of been saved w/ a multimillion $$$ nuke :king:

Jaimecbr900
07-01-2005, 01:12 PM
i refuse to die for someones ego but my own http://forums.importatlanta.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

and by the way if i was in charge i would of gave saddamn a WMD up his ass and taken that shit hole of a country off the map b/c the billions we are spending could of been saved w/ a multimillion $$$ nuke :king:

In a way, ironically enough I agree with that.... ;)

Brett
07-01-2005, 02:19 PM
Would have made a nice parking ot, and example of what the U.S would do if you pissed us off....lol

4dmin
07-01-2005, 02:25 PM
^ no shit ask Japan they love us now anyway :D

Sledlude
07-01-2005, 04:21 PM
I think Bush's propaganda machine and the media have been extremely effective at distracting people from whats really important. You ^ mentioned there are "bad" guys over in Iraq who would hurt us if given the opportunity- but look at the facts: Iraq has NO WOMD! The countries we should really be concerned about are gathering munitions together to throw down the US. What about North Korea? They have the technology and capability to create WOMD, and they even admit to having them. Russia- anyone? While people are so caught up with the "war" in Iraq, there are serious threats with actual arms that are rising up against our country....


Agreed... Bush is a retard.

Ex_Vtec_Girl
07-01-2005, 04:35 PM
you (meaning people in general, not specifically you) might think he's "a retard", but he's still the president of our country & he will be for a few more years. there's a reason he got that position & a reason he kept it. i'm so tired of hearing everybody bitch about how much they hate bush. if that many people really hated him & what he stands for & believes, then why didn't they go out & vote so he didn't get re-elected? doesn't make much sense to me.

Sledlude
07-01-2005, 04:43 PM
I did vote. Kerry sucks too. I think they both pretty much suck. I truly and honestly believe he's taking our country in the wrong direction... were losing lives, fighting a war that seems to be more and more unwinnable every day... for what? taking out sadam didnt do anything to help the osama problem, homeboy is still hiding out in caves. I think the whole war in iraq was supposed to be a big distraction. lots of propaganda. and unfortunately, it seems to be working. thats why he got re-elected.

Dragonfly5338
07-01-2005, 05:27 PM
you (meaning people in general, not specifically you) might think he's "a retard", but he's still the president of our country & he will be for a few more years. there's a reason he got that position & a reason he kept it. i'm so tired of hearing everybody bitch about how much they hate bush. if that many people really hated him & what he stands for & believes, then why didn't they go out & vote so he didn't get re-elected? doesn't make much sense to me.

I voted for Kerry too. :taun: So I can bitch all I want.

DreamerTheresa
07-01-2005, 10:07 PM
Vote Libertarian!



Or elect Theresa dictator. Yeah. I like that one better.

SaraX5
07-02-2005, 12:59 AM
I did vote. Kerry sucks too. I think they both pretty much suck. I truly and honestly believe he's taking our country in the wrong direction... were losing lives, fighting a war that seems to be more and more unwinnable every day... for what? taking out sadam didnt do anything to help the osama problem, homeboy is still hiding out in caves. I think the whole war in iraq was supposed to be a big distraction. lots of propaganda. and unfortunately, it seems to be working. thats why he got re-elected.
ditto

Big Baller
07-02-2005, 01:48 PM
Someone made mention of the economy earlier in the post. I dont really feel like rereading 10 post just to find out who it was, but.

I would love to know exactly how our economy is in bad shape. Point it out to me, show me.

Matt

CMO
07-02-2005, 09:07 PM
Like how people think that we should have just nuked them. Like there is no one around that could nuke us.

Desdicado
07-02-2005, 09:26 PM
Like how people think that we should have just nuked them. Like there is no one around that could nuke us.


The fact of the matter is the next country to use Nukes will get nuked by everyone else. It's one fucked up game of Blind Man's Bluff.

Ex_Vtec_Girl
07-02-2005, 09:35 PM
Someone made mention of the economy earlier in the post. I dont really feel like rereading 10 post just to find out who it was, but.

I would love to know exactly how our economy is in bad shape. Point it out to me, show me.

Matt

gas is a little on the steep side...that's the only excuse that i keep hearing from people who say our economy is in bad shape. sorry, but i don't consider gas prices the only factor in our economy!

Desdicado
07-02-2005, 10:35 PM
gas is a little on the steep side...that's the only excuse that i keep hearing from people who say our economy is in bad shape. sorry, but i don't consider gas prices the only factor in our economy!


Well, they are a contributing factor. With crude oil at record highs transportation and power generation costs go up, then so does everything else thats tied to it.

We'd be a lot better off though if we'd tell the hippies to piss off and build some new refineries.

4dmin
07-03-2005, 10:15 AM
Someone made mention of the economy earlier in the post. I dont really feel like rereading 10 post just to find out who it was, but.

I would love to know exactly how our economy is in bad shape. Point it out to me, show me.

Matt
energy prices are a spiral affect... if gas prices go up then everyones cost of living goes up. does your boss pay you more when that happens??? obviously no b/c he is incurring the same cost you are. b/c those prices go up it affects everything from the food on your table to you getting to work.

unemployment is still at highs we have been feeling since 2002. new jobs are being made but slower than the rate of lost jobs. then you have out sourcing american companies phasing out american jobs.

you have major corp on the brink of bankrupcy... DELTA??? that will be a huge blow to the Atlanta economy if that happens.

then you have the war... that shit isn't free; how about you look into the billions of dollars that has been spent on this BS war. originally it was to cost 200 billion; well we went over that mark over a year ago.

things are starting to turn around but we still aren't in full swing.

Julio
07-03-2005, 11:56 AM
gas is a little on the steep side...that's the only excuse that i keep hearing from people who say our economy is in bad shape. sorry, but i don't consider gas prices the only factor in our economy!


ditto.

Economy is bad for people making under 30 k a year, have no plans to suceed (sc) in life, alot of debt or havent consider a career change and also, depending in wich state you live is also a big factor as to why someone would think the economy sucks.

Gas prices been HIGH as fuck in the US for he past few years, problem is GA is now catching up to the other states that have had high gas prices for a few years So I think alot of GA residents are just whinning to much about it.

Try living up NORTH where gas price been over 2 bucks for a few years already and cost of living is almost double of what it is here if not more.

I think if you are making decent money and have good job, own a good business and are making good decisions in life then economy should not be an issue in your life. But Not all of us can say that though.. ohwell.

I think economy is getting better and better each day... Im in retail, I see it everyday.............



EDIT ** Call that a bold statement or whatever... Work more, complain less.

Desdicado
07-03-2005, 03:49 PM
unemployment is still at highs we have been feeling since 2002. new jobs are being made but slower than the rate of lost jobs. then you have out sourcing american companies phasing out american jobs.




Just out of curiousity, do you honestly believe that 5% unemployment is "high"? Its one of the lowest, if not the lowest, in the world. In fact, it can't get down much lower because it means at this point that everyone who wants a job (and is actually looking for one) can find one. Now it may not be paying that great, but its still work.

Granted, some industries and groups have been effected more than others. Construction workers, Factory workers, and other low skill workers are finding it hard to find gainful employment. Long gone are the days when all you needed to make ends meat was a strong back and a high school diploma. For anyone to seek employment straight out of highschool without some fine skill (or going straight into the military) is stupid at this point, unless you later on intend to attend a technical school or college. Our economy is not manufacturing based, people need to realize this and adapt. What few manufacturing jobs we have left in this country will be driven out by the unions in the next 10 years easy. This is a competitive economy, you want to succeed, you better make yourself marketable. Nobody has to hire you, so you want that job in the paper, you better make it worth the employers time to hire you. That means skills and education. Don't have those? Burger King is always looking for janitors.

Julio
07-03-2005, 04:57 PM
Just out of curiousity, do you honestly believe that 5% unemployment is "high"? Its one of the lowest, if not the lowest, in the world. In fact, it can't get down much lower because it means at this point that everyone who wants a job (and is actually looking for one) can find one. Now it may not be paying that great, but its still work.

Granted, some industries and groups have been effected more than others. Construction workers, Factory workers, and other low skill workers are finding it hard to find gainful employment. Long gone are the days when all you needed to make ends meat was a strong back and a high school diploma. For anyone to seek employment straight out of highschool without some fine skill (or going straight into the military) is stupid at this point, unless you later on intend to attend a technical school or college. Our economy is not manufacturing based, people need to realize this and adapt. What few manufacturing jobs we have left in this country will be driven out by the unions in the next 10 years easy. This is a competitive economy, you want to succeed, you better make yourself marketable. Nobody has to hire you, so you want that job in the paper, you better make it worth the employers time to hire you. That means skills and education. Don't have those? Burger King is always looking for janitors.


You don't need college to have a good paying job... pretty soon some college degrees will be worth as much a HS diploma. shit, now that I think about, theres ton of people in this country/world that are college grads with dead end jobs.

Ex_Vtec_Girl
07-03-2005, 05:04 PM
i have to completely agree with everything julio said.

we've had the discussion about college several times on here. it depends on what you want to do in life. i know several people who went to college, got a degree & as julio said, have dead end jobs & aren't making crap for money. i, on the other hand, didn't go to college, but have a great paying job with plenty of room for growth. i think the number of people i know who didn't go to college, but have great jobs actually out-numbers the people i know who went to college & have great jobs. i'm not against college, i just don't think it's an absolute necessity (sp) in life, like most make it sound. but that's a little off topic so i'll shut up now.

Brett
07-03-2005, 05:39 PM
gas is a little on the steep side...that's the only excuse that i keep hearing from people who say our economy is in bad shape. sorry, but i don't consider gas prices the only factor in our economy!

What I get sick of is people trying top blame Bush for gas prices. It amazes me how uneducated people are when they talk shit like that. What people who "try and sound smart" dont understand is oil prices are globally up ( Again people seem to think Bush has a hand in the global oil prices ) and the demand for the U.S has gone up but no China has a demand that is way up from what it was, add that to the other industrialized countries and it comes down to supply and demand and the fact production can not keep up with the usage, that in turn shoots oil/gas up.

I know you werent sayin that Michelle, I was just using your talk of gas prices :)

Desdicado
07-03-2005, 05:47 PM
You don't need college to have a good paying job... pretty soon some college degrees will be worth as much a HS diploma. shit, now that I think about, theres ton of people in this country/world that are college grads with dead end jobs.


You're missing my point. Lots of folks are still leaving high school with the mistaken belief that they can find a job paying a liveable wage without any further education or a skilled trade. Those days are long gone. As you well pointed, its not even guaranteed if you have a college degree. You must continue to adapt even while in school. Hence why I switched from Accounting to Database Management. MBAs are a dime a dozen now, and for good reason. You have to balance how to educate yourself based on whats needed today and what will be needed tomorrow. I knew a ton of computer science majors in 1999 who all had nice jobs lined up right after graduation. 6 years later most went back and now graduated with a 2nd degree because when the bottom fell out of the tech market they were left with a degree that was practically worthless in a flooded market.

You also can't ignore the simple fact that over the course of a lifetime your average college/tech school graduate will make $1 million more than a person without a degree.

Julio
07-03-2005, 06:18 PM
You also can't ignore the simple fact that over the course of a lifetime your average college/tech school graduate will make $1 million more than a person without a degree.


Thats 100% BS ..... Stop reading school marketing gimics.
I think you can't ignore the fact that most college grads these days are in diffrent fields as to what they went to school for. Now at that rate, That $1 mill will make no sense would it?
Now if you pull the doctors/lawyers and any other real GOOD paying career choice out of your little quote there, you will have nothing but a bunch of low to middle class people with useless college degrees in debt paying of college loans...

I'm not bashing college, But I don't close my eyes to the world out there. There's something for everyone. Just like you said, Is how you market yourself. I dropped out of college and don't regret one bit of it. Beleive it or not , I went to school for Criminal Justice, wanted to be a Cop.. ( inside laugh ) But there salary is a joke... At the time I was in School 26 k to start of w/ a degree in dekalb.. with a bunch of benefits...
Go to college, More power to everyone.. Just choose a career wisely thats all =]

Julio
07-03-2005, 06:21 PM
BTW, this topic got way offtopic... Good topic nonetheless... No hard feelings...

BUSH rocks!

quickdodge®
07-03-2005, 06:29 PM
Thats 100% BS ..... Stop reading school marketing gimics.
I think you can't ignore the fact that most college grads these days are in diffrent fields as to what they went to school for.

Agreed! I am a perfect example of this. Check it:

1984 - Freshman at RCHS, took SAT only once and made 1460(at that time perfect was 1600)
1988 - Graduated RCHS 3.75 GPA
1991 - After going to GSU, PBCC, and Dekalb Tech, I graduated Dean's List 4.0 in computer operations
2000 - Hired on at Budweiser and 5 years later, pushing beer around to different stores.

Your life is what you make it, college or not(for the most part). Later, QD.

Ex_Vtec_Girl
07-03-2005, 09:03 PM
this comment is way off topic, but get over it...

damn qd, you're old!!! :D

Brett
07-03-2005, 10:29 PM
Yeah he is

Z33_kid
07-03-2005, 11:22 PM
lets juss say if it gets worse there will be no more social security that means when u get all old no one will help u theyll leave u in ur bed to die the end

4dmin
07-04-2005, 10:34 AM
Just out of curiousity, do you honestly believe that 5% unemployment is "high"? Its one of the lowest, if not the lowest, in the world. In fact, it can't get down much lower because it means at this point that everyone who wants a job (and is actually looking for one) can find one. Now it may not be paying that great, but its still work.
5% is high considering 2001 we were low-mid 4%... we aren't discussing other countries we are discussing the USA. and a jump of 1% is a major loss in employment when we are talking 1,000,000s of lives. now i'm not saying there isn't any jobs out there i merely posted causes for economic instability.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++

another prime example of education... my father makes 80k a year driving a garbage truck. many people laugh about jobs and garbage men are always one the like to laugh about; ya well many people on this board have been to some of the parties i throw at my parents place and ya that is all purchased on waste industry $$$ :goodjob: .

the problem w/ people now a days is they are more worried about titles... if people got their hands a little dirtier they would see there is a ton of money out there for those who want it. no college degree is going to give you street smarts, so open your eyes.

quickdodge®
07-04-2005, 10:55 AM
Well goddamn ,Vtecgirl, lolol. I am, aren't I? Later, QD.

Desdicado
07-04-2005, 11:52 AM
Thats 100% BS ..... Stop reading school marketing gimics.
I think you can't ignore the fact that most college grads these days are in diffrent fields as to what they went to school for. Now at that rate, That $1 mill will make no sense would it?
Now if you pull the doctors/lawyers and any other real GOOD paying career choice out of your little quote there, you will have nothing but a bunch of low to middle class people with useless college degrees in debt paying of college loans...

I'm not bashing college, But I don't close my eyes to the world out there. There's something for everyone. Just like you said, Is how you market yourself. I dropped out of college and don't regret one bit of it. Beleive it or not , I went to school for Criminal Justice, wanted to be a Cop.. ( inside laugh ) But there salary is a joke... At the time I was in School 26 k to start of w/ a degree in dekalb.. with a bunch of benefits...
Go to college, More power to everyone.. Just choose a career wisely thats all =]



In this matter we have to go on our own experiences. In my case, everyone I know who didnt have a skilled trade and didnt go to college or tech school are doing things like delivering pizzas, shift managers at McDonalds, or selling parts at Napa. The guys I know who did go to tech schools, did have skilled trades, or went to college have either graduated and are making more money, are about to graduate with better paying jobs lined up, or are working on their Masters/Phds in fields which later on will pay them far more and give them ample oppurtunity for promotion.

And its amazing whats considered a "huge" unemployment rate. For 60 years we were happy to stay below 8% unemployment, but 96-2000 spoiled us with the tech market/dotcom bubble into havin unrealistic expectations. In fact, by 98 and 99 those who were in the industry knew that it was going to burst, that the rate was unmaintainable, and started getting out. Then it finally did bust and we went back to what is considered a maintainble unemployment rate. It is not unbearable, it is not inconceivable, it is exactly right where we should be. I highly doubt we'll ever see an unemployment rate as low as it was at the end of the 90s, and if we do it will only be because of another bubble and wishful thinking.

And for the record, here I am defending Bush and I didn't even vote for him, theres Irony.

4dmin
07-04-2005, 02:17 PM
For 60 years we were happy to stay below 8% unemployment, but 96-2000 spoiled us with the tech market/dotcom bubble into havin unrealistic expectations. In fact, by 98 and 99 those who were in the industry knew that it was going to burst, that the rate was unmaintainable, and started getting out. Then it finally did bust and we went back to what is considered a maintainble unemployment rate. It is not unbearable, it is not inconceivable, it is exactly right where we should be. I highly doubt we'll ever see an unemployment rate as low as it was at the end of the 90s, and if we do it will only be because of another bubble and wishful thinking. from 97-2001 we kept a consistant below 5% unemployement rate, everything after 911/war lead us up to higher unemployment... the % grew to 6.3% 1/2 way through 2003 then it started to drop and here we are today 2 years later at 5.1%. as far as your 8% figure we haven't seen 8% or higher since the early 80's, 5% or lower is alittle more accurate as a maintable rate. by the way they don't even have 60 years of data on bls.gov site :goodjob:

4dmin
07-04-2005, 02:23 PM
\/ 1948+ unemployement %

Desdicado
07-04-2005, 02:46 PM
I pulled my numbers off of here (http://nidataplus.com/lfeus1.htm). Which ends at the 80s. I got the numbers for back to 1920 from here (http://www.eh.net/encyclopedia/?article=Smiley.1920s.final) and here (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html)

*shrug*

Google is your friend :goodjob:

Big Baller
07-04-2005, 04:06 PM
lets juss say if it gets worse there will be no more social security that means when u get all old no one will help u theyll leave u in ur bed to die the end


I have my own retirement fund. I dont depend on the goverment to take care of me. I dont plan on seeing a single dime of the money I have paid into social security.

Matt

Big Baller
07-04-2005, 04:08 PM
They funny thing about the unemployment rate is that it doesnt take into account the number of people that dont work because they are retired, sick, dont want to work, dont need to work, or are in school.

So once again the unemployment rate is not a good ecomonic indicator.

Neither are oil prices, or the national debt.


You have to look at the overall picture.


Matt

Desdicado
07-04-2005, 06:14 PM
lets juss say if it gets worse there will be no more social security that means when u get all old no one will help u theyll leave u in ur bed to die the end


And I would want the Government to support me why? I was taught to be independent and take care of myself from a young age, I will not turn my back on those teachings in my old age. The only person who's going to take care of you when you retire will be you. Anything on top of that is just icing on the cake.

4dmin
07-04-2005, 08:39 PM
I pulled my numbers off of here (http://nidataplus.com/lfeus1.htm). Which ends at the 80s. I got the numbers for back to 1920 from here (http://www.eh.net/encyclopedia/?article=Smiley.1920s.final) and here (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104719.html)

*shrug*

Google is your friend :goodjob:

ya i guess you missed this part

"
NOTES: Estimates prior to 1940 are based on sources other than direct enumeration. Data prior to 1948 are for persons age 14 and over. Data beginning in 1948 are for persons age 16 and over.
Source: U.S. Department of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics. Web: stats.bls.gov (http://stats.bls.gov/) ."

^ yet the gov site doesn't go past 48' :thinking: next time search the actual source instead of google :goodjob:

Jaimecbr900
07-05-2005, 10:30 AM
Paul, it is true that a 1% shift in the unemployment numbers makes an impact, but also note that looking at the chart you posted....it's happened a bunch of times and by far more than just 1% too. Notice that there is a small pattern to those numbers you posted. It looks to me like around every decade the numbers start to look similar to each other. 2005's numbers look a little like 1995's and so on. That to me shows far more like there are other factors that govern these numbers.

4dmin
07-05-2005, 11:05 AM
^ i never said unemployment was the only factor i just listed it as one and 1% is a major change considering the #'s at hand; its been much higher and much lower but you can obviously see where the war/911 played into this #.

Jaimecbr900
07-05-2005, 11:34 AM
^ i never said unemployment was the only factor i just listed it as one and 1% is a major change considering the #'s at hand; its been much higher and much lower but you can obviously see where the war/911 played into this #.

Right, I'm not saying that. I'm merely noticing that based on the numbers on that are on the chart it looks to me like it's a mini pattern of about every 10 yrs the numbers seem to match each other. Which if that's true would indicate that there are certain things, other than presidents in charge, that would affect those numbers.

I wasn't trying to say anything negative about the numbers or deductions at all. I was merely noticing that pattern.

4dmin
07-05-2005, 11:44 AM
Right, I'm not saying that. I'm merely noticing that based on the numbers on that are on the chart it looks to me like it's a mini pattern of about every 10 yrs the numbers seem to match each other. Which if that's true would indicate that there are certain things, other than presidents in charge, that would affect those numbers.

I wasn't trying to say anything negative about the numbers or deductions at all. I was merely noticing that pattern.
no i agree no just a president can change the economy w/ such as impacts we've seen in the past 4 years... 911 is no doubt some of the biggest impacts we've felt in the past term but he does control the war which is another determining factor

verash
07-06-2005, 08:40 PM
stfu liberal scum! nobody forced the man to join the military.

nightracer
07-11-2005, 05:14 PM
you hope bush rots in hell? isn't that statement a little strong??? i understand you're upset because you lost somebody over there...a lot of people in this country have, but i think you're being a little harsh. god only knows what the hell would have happened in this country if we wouldn't have gone over there. bush is doing what he thinks is right & he obviously has good reasons for it or we wouldn't still be there. just my :2cents:
Ya think?

MSTANGSALEEN
07-11-2005, 05:42 PM
I was in the military and when you go oversees for a while its hard and sometimes your wife just doesnt understand. Which makes it harder for you and harder for you to focus while your there.

Integseeker04
08-17-2005, 02:34 PM
Bring the soldiers back!!! That's all I have to say.