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RandomGuy
03-13-2007, 12:28 AM
Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill
for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we
pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.
So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite
happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw
them a curve.
"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going
to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20."Drinks for the
ten now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our
taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still
drink for free. But what about the other six men - the paying
customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that
everyone would get his 'fair share?'

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they
subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man
and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink
his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair
to reduce each man's bill by roughly the same amount, and
he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

And so:

The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing
(100% savings).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33%savings).
The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28%savings).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four
continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant,
the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20,"declared the sixth man.
He pointed to the tenth man," but he got $10!"

"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a
dollar, too. It's unfair that he got TEN times more than I!"

"That's true!!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get
$10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the
breaks!"

"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison. "We
didn't get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!"

The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the
nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came
time to pay the bill, they discovered something important.
They didn't have enough money between all of them for even
half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and college professors,
is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest
taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too
much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not
show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas
where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics - University of Georgia

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For democrats no explanation is possible.

i stole this from another forum but DAMN that analogy is on point

fight club
03-13-2007, 01:19 AM
+10000000

SniperJoe
03-13-2007, 03:46 AM
The Fair Tax is our only hope.

Jkuao
03-13-2007, 07:56 AM
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/t/taxcuts.htm

EssAreTwenTee
03-13-2007, 08:13 AM
yeah its great when I paid in $17k in federal/state last year.

Jkuao
03-13-2007, 08:20 AM
The analogy leaves out important details that make it seem more applicable than it does. If the tenth guy makes double the poorest guy, we'd all scream bloody murder. But if the tenth guy makes 100x the poorest guy his tax burden is nothing. In the real world, the tenth guy would also own the brewery, the bar, and employ several of the other men. He also would have gotten $1000 tax break to build the bar and written off the poor guys beer as a charitable gift.

The difference is that in the real world tax cuts percentage-wise affected the rich more than the poor. That means that for every dollar they earn, they got more back. All tax systems are progressive...that's kind of their point. You take enough from the rich to keep the poor from revolting. Also, don't forget the increase in spending on defense, medicare drugs, etc that have been mostly at the behest of those who earn several times the avg household.

That said, I'd love lower taxes. As a single renter w/ health insurance paying 20k+ per year in taxes, I know I don't get jack in services. I'd also prefer if we didn't blow it all on war, large corp subsidies, and general waste.

2.0civic
03-13-2007, 08:23 AM
very good find RG. Reps when i can

05Tib
03-13-2007, 09:39 AM
fair tax deal! never will happen though

2.0civic
03-13-2007, 09:49 AM
The analogy leaves out important details that make it seem more applicable than it does. If the tenth guy makes double the poorest guy, we'd all scream bloody murder. But if the tenth guy makes 100x the poorest guy his tax burden is nothing. In the real world, the tenth guy would also own the brewery, the bar, and employ several of the other men. He also would have gotten $1000 tax break to build the bar and written off the poor guys beer as a charitable gift.

The difference is that in the real world tax cuts percentage-wise affected the rich more than the poor. That means that for every dollar they earn, they got more back. All tax systems are progressive...that's kind of their point. You take enough from the rich to keep the poor from revolting. Also, don't forget the increase in spending on defense, medicare drugs, etc that have been mostly at the behest of those who earn several times the avg household.

That said, I'd love lower taxes. As a single renter w/ health insurance paying 20k+ per year in taxes, I know I don't get jack in services. I'd also prefer if we didn't blow it all on war, large corp subsidies, and general waste.

what are you doing for 20k a year in taxes?

Jkuao
03-13-2007, 10:01 AM
what are you doing for 20k a year in taxes?

Software. It will only get worse unless I buy a home, get married and have some kids. Those who are rich get much more of their income from long term capital gains and other tax advantaged comp so their overall taxes are likely lower than what I get taxed at.

SniperJoe
03-13-2007, 10:35 AM
Software. It will only get worse unless I buy a home, get married and have some kids. Those who are rich get much more of their income from long term capital gains and other tax advantaged comp so their overall taxes are likely lower than what I get taxed at.

Psst...there is this thing called the AMT. You should read about it before claiming that the "rich" are getting away with stuff.

Jkuao
03-13-2007, 11:03 AM
Psst...there is this thing called the AMT. You should read about it before claiming that the "rich" are getting away with stuff.

I don't exactly consider AMT payers as being rich. You can get hit by the time you have 50-100k AGI. Those who are truly wealthy still have other options. They have tax shelters and creative accountants that can make business ventures appear to bleed money.

I have an economics degree focused on public finance...but I haven't exactly sat around examining tax codes. I prefer to look at the effects of the large entitlement programs like SS and Medicaid which are in for far bigger blowups.

The rich do get hit w/ a lot of taxes and I don't propose we tax them more...just make sure they pay their fair amount. The system is already trying to be more fair than it used to be since marginal tax brackets hit 50% back in the 70's.

Those of us yet to conform to gov't directed actions like getting married, having kids or getting a mortgage are the ones who marginally get hit the hardest. I have friends that easily pay over 100k/year in taxes in NY but pretty much have to live like college students b/c of the jacked up tax code.

Echonova
03-13-2007, 11:19 AM
just make sure they pay their fair amount. The system is already trying to be more fair than it used to be since marginal tax brackets hit 50% back in the 70's.

Those of us yet to conform to gov't directed actions like getting married, having kids or getting a mortgage are the ones who marginally get hit the hardest. I have friends that easily pay over 100k/year in taxes in NY but pretty much have to live like college students b/c of the jacked up tax code.

K. What's a fair amount? Who's the judge? If we had a flat tax that would be the "fairest" of all. Does 10% (let's say) take more money out of a poor man's pocket than a rich man's? The percentage is the same, has the same impact on your budget.

SniperJoe
03-13-2007, 11:52 AM
I don't exactly consider AMT payers as being rich. You can get hit by the time you have 50-100k AGI. Those who are truly wealthy still have other options. They have tax shelters and creative accountants that can make business ventures appear to bleed money.

I have an economics degree focused on public finance...but I haven't exactly sat around examining tax codes. I prefer to look at the effects of the large entitlement programs like SS and Medicaid which are in for far bigger blowups.

The rich do get hit w/ a lot of taxes and I don't propose we tax them more...just make sure they pay their fair amount. The system is already trying to be more fair than it used to be since marginal tax brackets hit 50% back in the 70's.

Those of us yet to conform to gov't directed actions like getting married, having kids or getting a mortgage are the ones who marginally get hit the hardest. I have friends that easily pay over 100k/year in taxes in NY but pretty much have to live like college students b/c of the jacked up tax code.

As far as those who are making 50-100k getting hit with the AMT, that is true, but they seem to be trying to dial that back more and more every year. All those tax shelters are still available to the lower income earners, but a vast majority do not take advantage of them.

I would agree that the Medicare and SS systems are headed for a much more dire public crisis, though. There are serious changes that need to be made before it is too late.

Strides have been made in regards to the tax brackets. The difficulty of the discussion comes when the phrase "fair share" comes into the picture. To some "fair" means an equal percentage, to others "fair" means a standard of living. All of that reminds me of when we got into a debate about how to define "is". Have you studied the Fair Tax at all? Any thoughts on that?