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Jaimecbr900
02-07-2007, 10:39 AM
I got this from a buddy who posted it on another forum. It was in the ajc yesterday. Discuss.

UWU]UbUZU]U]UcTYWVVZV&urcm=y]ajc article (http://www.ajc.com/search/content/metro/stories/2007/02/01/metlegcamera0201a.html?COXnetJSessionIDbuild10b=z1 GjFJ1GyQZdMQPnFKSQWnZ8Pf1z0t6NFTW1wW4cPnBvVqlBGzG5 !-1326240456&UrAuth=`NcNUOcN[UbTTUWUXUVUZTZU)

For those that can't see the link:

Lawmaker seeks ban of red light cameras
Some legislators say law saves lives; opponents cite more fender-benders, question right to privacy.

By Paul Kaplan, Jeremy Redmon
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution

Published on: 02/01/07

Those controversial red light cameras would become a thing of the past under a bill being considered by the Legislature.

Georgia legalized the cameras six years ago to improve safety, but several state lawmakers want to ban them across the state. They say the cameras are unconstitutional and are causing fender-benders.

"In the Constitution, you have the right to confront your accusers. And you cannot cross-examine a camera," said state Rep. Bobby Franklin (R-Marietta). "And that is not even going into the public safety side of it, where you have numerous rear-end collisions where people are trying to avoid getting tickets."

But supporters of the red light cameras dispute the constitutional concern, and they say the devices save lives.

More than 20 cities and counties across the state are using the cameras, according to the Georgia Department of Transportation. Among them are DeKalb, Clayton and Gwinnett counties and the cities of Atlanta, Decatur and Alpharetta.

Franklin says his bill is retroactive, so if it becomes law it would require cities and counties to shut down their cameras.

Proponents of HB 77 are bracing for what they say will be an uphill battle pushing it through the Legislature this year. One of the bill's sponsors, Rep. Barry Loudermilk (R-Cassville), said he has received critical letters from city officials.

The General Assembly in 2001 authorized cities and counties to issue fines of up to $70 for red light runners caught on camera.

"I'll do everything I can to save the program because it saves lives," said Rep. Stephanie Stuckey Benfield (D-Atlanta), one of the sponsors of the 2001 legislation.

Mixed results in Roswell

Roswell police Chief Ed Williams said the cameras produce mixed results, but he defends the devices. Studies have shown the number of serious side-impact accidents, known as "T-bones," decline after the cameras are installed, and that saves lives, Williams said. Yet, the cameras increase the number of low-impact fender-benders, he said. Fender-benders increase because drivers often slam on their brakes when the light turns yellow, catching the driver behind them off-guard.

In Alpharetta, collisions caused by running red lights dropped by nearly 64 percent in the year after the cameras were installed, and rear-end collisions increased by nearly 4 percent, according to police.

Roswell recently had a contractor install red light cameras at two of its most dangerous intersections, and next week the city begins issuing warning tickets for a month before sending out $70 citations to violators.

Williams disagrees with Franklin's argument that the cameras should be outlawed because the accused cannot confront a camera in court.

"You can't cross-examine a gun or a bullet, either," Williams said. "In this case, you can cross-examine the officer. A certified police officer reviews the videotape and makes a determination that a car committed a violation."

Source of revenue

A recent study in Philadelphia by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, a nonprofit educational organization, found that red light-running dropped by 96 percent after cameras were installed.

Some cities and counties are making money off the red light cameras. Gwinnett County, for example, used five of the devices at three intersections in 2006, issued 13,148 traffic citations and collected $562,332 in fines, records show.

"I want to protect the safety of the citizen and the driver, and at the same time I don't want this to be a distinct revenue source," said state Rep. Tom Rice (R-Norcross), chairman of the House Motor Vehicles Committee, which is preparing to review the bill.

Loudermilk said he is preparing to introduce another bill that would force cities and counties to stop using their red light cameras until they file annual reports as already required by state law. Those reports require them to disclose the locations of the cameras, how many traffic citations they have issued and how much money they have collected. Not all cities and counties with the cameras are filing those reports, Loudermilk said.

Critics say they also are concerned about privacy.

"Some people think it's Big Brotherish," countered Roswell City Councilman David Tolleson. "But look at YouTube. If you're in a public place, you are subject to being filmed or observed ... particularly in this age where everyone has a cellphone camera and can just casually observe anyone else."

Under Georgia law, video enforcement has to be from the rear, so the picture cannot identify anyone in the vehicle. And no matter who's driving, the ticket will go to the registered owner of the vehicle. California and other states allow pictures to be taken of the driver.

Difference of opinion

Shoppers a block from the intersection of Haynes Bridge Road and North Point Parkway in Alpharetta, which has red light cameras, expressed mixed feelings about the bill. Most of those interviewed Wednesday said they believe the cameras make the intersections safer, but they have concerns.

"On one hand, you're on a public road, so you're subjecting yourself to being photographed, but there's still a Big Brother issue," said Mark Spivey of Sandy Springs. "As long as they post a notice —- a sign saying 'Photo enforced' —- I guess I'm OK with it.

"Of course, if I get a ticket, I might be singing another song," he said.

Sandra Gray of Duluth said her husband "always worries" about getting caught by a camera. She said she sees the arguments for and against them, but she wants cameras at an intersection near her home, where backups push frustrated motorists to run the red light.

She said: "Put one at State Bridge and Medlock Bridge —- please!"

Nemesis
02-07-2007, 10:43 AM
I say keep the damn cameras. Every damn morning I cross one right near Lenox Mall on the way into work and people are always getting their ass caught running it.

SLOWLYbtngU
02-07-2007, 10:47 AM
I don't have a problem with the cameras. I have a problem with getting a ticket from the officer and then three days later getting one from the camera....I refuse to pay for the same ticket twice....

thinkfast®
02-07-2007, 10:51 AM
F THE POLICE F THE POLICE F EM

Slowboy
02-07-2007, 10:55 AM
F THE POLICE F THE POLICE F EM

I sense anger towards the police. lol

But for reall gettin a ticket from a cop then one for the camera. would suck bad. I heard we got some camera's down in columbus but. What i worry bout is them damn biker cops. Them bastards will get you for 5,10 over it dont matter. there sneaky :ninja:

Greddypacked
02-07-2007, 10:58 AM
Camera's are a good idea. I dont run redlights especially when i know there is a camera there.

ShooterMcGavin
02-07-2007, 11:34 AM
bad idea, not only does it cause more accidents, most ppl who don't want to pay them just say it wasn't them driving, provide a false name and address and never have to worry about it again.

Jaimecbr900
02-07-2007, 11:36 AM
bad idea, not only does it cause more accidents, most ppl who don't want to pay them just say it wasn't them driving, provide a false name and address and never have to worry about it again.

Can you do that??? :thinking:

On the ticket it gives you a specific recourse if it wasn't you driving, but I don't think you can just give them any name and forget it though. :thinking:

Hulud
02-07-2007, 11:38 AM
bad idea, not only does it cause more accidents, most ppl who don't want to pay them just say it wasn't them driving, provide a false name and address and never have to worry about it again.
i doubt its that easy

4dmin
02-07-2007, 11:38 AM
I think its good and bad...

1) if you get a ticket it shouldn't be reported to insurance/or points if there is no way of fighting it; b/c what if your not driving? Furthermore there should be a limit to the fines like 50$ max kinda like the seatbelt laws where its 15$; unless its in busy hours where lunch/rush hour then fine should be doubled!

2) They need these on every intersection where idiots like to block traffic!!!! I hate nothing worse then trying to make a left hand turn and some idiots are blocking traffic b/c they sat under the light :2up:

Jaimecbr900
02-07-2007, 11:40 AM
I think its good and bad...

1) if you get a ticket it shouldn't be reported to insurance/or points if there is no way of fighting it; b/c what if your not driving? Furthermore there should be a limit to the fines like 50$ max kinda like the seatbelt laws where its 15$; unless its in busy hours where lunch/rush hour then fine should be doubled!

2) They need these on every intersection where idiots like to block traffic!!!! I hate nothing worse then trying to make a left hand turn and some idiots are blocking traffic b/c they sat under the light :2up:


I'm almost positive that if you do get a red light camera ticket it doesn't go against your driving record. I'll have to check that.

Hulud
02-07-2007, 11:41 AM
I think its good and bad...

1) if you get a ticket it shouldn't be reported to insurance/or points if there is no way of fighting it; b/c what if your not driving? Furthermore there should be a limit to the fines like 50$ max kinda like the seatbelt laws where its 15$; unless its in busy hours where lunch/rush hour then fine should be doubled!

i like that idea

ShooterMcGavin
02-07-2007, 11:45 AM
Can you do that??? :thinking:

On the ticket it gives you a specific recourse if it wasn't you driving, but I don't think you can just give them any name and forget it though. :thinking:
Jaime, yes.

quite simply, a ticket sent to u from a red light camera is not considered a TRAFFIC violation, rather it's a civil violation.

on the ticket it tells u clearly if it was not u driving the vehicle to give them the name and address of the person that was.

with the # of tickets given out, and the # of ppl that know about this "trick/glitch", it's not a big surprise some ppl get away w/just giving bs info. i mean honestly, if i gave them ur name w/a bs address, how do they know u didn't move away?

Hulud
02-07-2007, 11:47 AM
how do they know u didn't move away?
public records

ShooterMcGavin
02-07-2007, 11:49 AM
yeah but like i'm saying, they don't really have the time or put forth the effort to dig into it at all...

Hulud
02-07-2007, 11:52 AM
i dunno, have you done it before?

ShooterMcGavin
02-07-2007, 11:53 AM
nope, but it was on the news some time ago when the debate came up on whether or not there should be red light cameras.

ShooterMcGavin
02-07-2007, 11:53 AM
i got 1 red light ticket and i paid it, figured that even if i could get away from it, i'd rather not have it come back and bite me in the ass way down the road.

Jaimecbr900
02-07-2007, 11:56 AM
Well, I don't know how easy that is to get away with.

I was reading that the biggest problem is that it is Constitutionally impossible to truly be able to prosecute someone IF the state can't PROVE you were the driver. Presumption is not constitutionally accepted. So this is why in Cali they take a pic of the actual driver too. It seems like it would make sense to me.

ShooterMcGavin
02-07-2007, 12:04 PM
^^^that goes hand in hand w/them not really tracking down the "right driver"

{X}Echo419
02-07-2007, 12:39 PM
I think its good and bad...

1) if you get a ticket it shouldn't be reported to insurance/or points if there is no way of fighting it; b/c what if your not driving? Furthermore there should be a limit to the fines like 50$ max kinda like the seatbelt laws where its 15$; unless its in busy hours where lunch/rush hour then fine should be doubled!

2) They need these on every intersection where idiots like to block traffic!!!! I hate nothing worse then trying to make a left hand turn and some idiots are blocking traffic b/c they sat under the light :2up:

there is actually a different law for that. it is almost NEVER enforced. the only place I've seen officers enforcing it was on Ashford-Dunwoody rd @ Hammond dr. cops are allover that shit there :goodjob:

Fact of the matter is this is nothing more than a revenue machine for the cities/counties. plain and simple. :yes:

civic95
02-07-2007, 12:41 PM
Something you will never hear from the AJC...


A state worker that works in the dept. that collects the "red light camera revenue" will "donate" money to these that oppose the cameras. Suddenly the statistics will be skewed to show that they are preventing some wrecks, and are safer.

They are making too much money off the cameras to let that stop, and anyone can be bribed to change their opinion.

ShooterMcGavin
02-07-2007, 12:44 PM
i wish someone would bribe me to change my opinions lolol :D

civic95
02-07-2007, 12:52 PM
i wish someone would bribe me to change my opinions lolol :D


Get into politics or sales, and see how quickly it happens.

Ran
02-07-2007, 02:31 PM
I say...

1) Keep the cameras. If somebody rear-ends someone else for stopping at a red light then that's their fault for following too close and not paying attention.

2) Make difficult driving schools mandatory to get your license. No more of this "drive two minutes in a f*cking parking lot" to pass. An actual driving school! Drivers attending the school to get their license pay for it of course. They want to drive? Make them earn it.

3) Make talking on your cell phone while driving illegal to the point where it's considered reckless driving. Vehicle accidents in Japan dropped 35% when cell phones were banned from use while operating a motor vehicle.


That's just my opinion though. :)

Crazy Asian
02-07-2007, 02:33 PM
Dude I want driving school to be like Germany. There so freaking strict about driving there and that is why then can goto 90-120 cuz they drive welll unlike SOME PPL IN ATLANTA WHO DDONT EVEN KNOW THAT THERE IN REVERSE!!!! GOD DAMN LADY YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE!!!!!

{X}Echo419
02-07-2007, 02:34 PM
I say...

1) Keep the cameras. If somebody rear-ends someone else for stopping at a red light then that's their fault for following too close and not paying attention.

2) Make difficult driving schools mandatory to get your license. No more of this "drive two minutes in a f*cking parking lot" to pass. An actual driving school! Drivers attending the school to get their license pay for it of course. They want to drive? Make them earn it.

3) Make talking on your cell phone while driving illegal to the point where it's considered reckless driving. Vehicle accidents in Japan dropped 35% when cell phones were banned from use while operating a motor vehicle.


That's just my opinion though. :)

you mean after they stopped filming FF3! :yes:

take the god damn light cameras out! if you get T-boned and killed b/c you ran the light then good! now you won't beable to vote. :cheers:

Ran
02-07-2007, 02:35 PM
take the god damn light cameras out! if you get T-boned and killed b/c you ran the light then good! now you won't beable to vote. :cheers:On the other hand, what if you get T-bone and killed because some moron ran his red light?

ShooterMcGavin
02-07-2007, 02:36 PM
That's just my opinion though. :)
therefore no one cares :goodjob:

ShooterMcGavin
02-07-2007, 02:37 PM
On the other hand, what if you get T-bone and killed because some moron ran his red light?
then he won't be posting here anymore will he? :D

{X}Echo419
02-07-2007, 03:12 PM
On the other hand, what if you get T-bone and killed because some moron ran his red light?

then a fuckin' camera wouldn't be able to stop it either. if someone's going to tun the light nothing's going to stop them. if anyhting they go thru lights faster to beat the camera.

Ran
02-07-2007, 03:15 PM
then a fuckin' camera wouldn't be able to stop it either. if someone's going to tun the light nothing's going to stop them. if anyhting they go thru lights faster to beat the camera.I think the camera would serve as more of an incentive to stop than to run it. Then again, I'm not most of the people that drive in GA.


Just for the record, I got a ticket from one of these cameras once. I got the ticket in the mail with a picture of my car in the intersection with the caption, "Light has been red for .043 seconds". :doh:

{X}Echo419
02-07-2007, 03:20 PM
I think the camera would serve as more of an incentive to stop than to run it. Then again, I'm not most of the people that drive in GA.

Just for the record, I got a ticket from one of these cameras once. I got the ticket in the mail with a picture of my car in the intersection with the caption, "Light has been red for .043 seconds". :doh:

and be glad you're not :yes:

same here, although I'm not sure what the exact time was I know it was less than 0.5 sec. :yes:

Jaimecbr900
02-08-2007, 08:51 AM
Red light cameras do indeed deter regular inpatient drivers from running the light. It won't however stop some drunk driver from T-boning anyone. It's great that they'll have the video evidence to convict, but it won't save a life in any way shape or form from that type of accident.

People do panic all the time though. Happens to me all the time. Like I said, I have one less the a block from my office. I have to go thru it atleast 2 times a day. I see people panicked about going thru it. As soon as the light turns yellow, everyone freaks out and locks down their brakes. I've done it myself, and almost got rear ended.

Although I agree that red light runners deserve a ticket or worse, I also think that if they can't positively identify the DRIVER then it's shouldn't be legal either.

ShooterMcGavin
02-08-2007, 08:56 AM
^^^yep, i've got one right here on the corner of windy hill and cobb that i have to to go through every day. i must tell u though, with it bein there, ppl either get all panicky like u said or those that are determined to get through it still go through it.

Ran
02-08-2007, 09:07 AM
i've got one right here on the corner of windy hill and cobb that i have to to go through every day.Ha! That's where I got my ticket at!

ShooterMcGavin
02-08-2007, 09:10 AM
no shit, that's where i got mine too. hate that goddamn intersection, especially if ur trying to turn onto cobb from windy hill.